DISCUSSION thread for the Petition for Digital Rebel firmwar

[Carbon]

Here's the place to rant and discuss the petition for the Digital Rebel/300D/Kiss Digital firmware update.

*****The actual petition is here:
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18169

Post comments here.

Here are the proposed changes for the camera's firmware:
1. User selectable One Shot, AI Servo and AI Focusing modes. This feature can be accessed through the camera's main menu system.
2. A user selectable mirror lockup option accessed through the main menu. With the added slap of the Digital Rebel's reflex mirror, this feature is essential for long exposures.
3. User selectable focus lock through use of the "*" button. This is Custom Function 4 on the EOS-10D
4. User selectable exposure modes through the main menu: Evaluative, Partial and Center Weighted Average options.
5. User selectable flash exposure compensation.

[availlant]

Apologies Carbon, I did not read the first part of your post carefully enough. My post is deleted.

I would suggest that you post the customer support E_mail for Canon on that thread so that anybody who agreed with you will put pressure on Canon that way.

On your comments to Bob on his last E-mail.....

THe product cycles for all electronics are less than 6 months but you can expect that with Canon's outlay for the design and manufacture of the 10D, 1D and 1Ds, the Rebel will always be the 2nd tier prosumer SLR for Canon. There will always be features absent in the next 300D which will be present in the next 10D....

Best wishes

[MediaMagic]

Carbon wrote:
Here's the place to rant and discuss the petition for the Digital Rebel/300D/Kiss Digital firmware update.

*****The actual petition is here:
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18169

Post comments here.

Here are the proposed changes for the camera's firmware:
1. User selectable One Shot, AI Servo and AI Focusing modes. This feature can be accessed through the camera's main menu system.
2. A user selectable mirror lockup option accessed through the main menu. With the added slap of the Digital Rebel's reflex mirror, this feature is essential for long exposures.
3. User selectable focus lock through use of the "*" button. This is Custom Function 4 on the EOS-10D
4. User selectable exposure modes through the main menu: Evaluative, Partial and Center Weighted Average options.
5. User selectable flash exposure compensation.

I'm not sure I'm following the logic here. Aren't these features exactly why one would buy the 10D over the Digital Rebel? Maybe I'm missing something, but there were several threads about "which to buy" and it was clear that if you needed all the features, "go with the 10D because the Rebel will not have them and will probably be disappointing." The comparisons were discussed several times. I guess what I am asking is, didn't the purchasers of the Rebel know these features were missing before making the purchase?

Good luck with it though, if you can get Canon to add it all in a firmware update, I'm all for it. Hopefully they'll see some serious hobbyists are using the Rebel and make it more feature rich.

Take care,
David

[MarkH]

I find this interesting, a bunch of people who purchased the Rebel or are considering purchasing it, are trying to petition Canon to improve its features?

If it was important to you to have those features then why buy the Rebel?

Canon currently offers these D-SLRs:
1Ds
1D
10D
300D (aka Rebel or Kiss)

If you don't want to pay for the higher model then you can't really complain that the camera leaves of features that you believe that you really should have.

Also remember that Canon deliberately took out some features to keep the camera where they could sell it, but still sell the 10D with many value added features.

You may prove me wrong and get what you want. But I think Canon is working to a very carefully designed marketing plan, they would be unlikely to change it just because some people whine when the cut down model isn't as good as the next model up.

I personally think that the 300D is a very good camera with a lot going for it, but there are many who would be happier if they paid a bit more and got the 10D instead.

As far as the idea of giving the consumers what they want to be more competitive, Canon is already well ahead of the game. At present the 10D offers good value compared to anything offered by any of the other brands and the 300D has no competition at all, it is cheaper than all rival D-SLRs and the compact cameras can't compare in either quality or versatility.

[RichardtheSane]

If you need these features, buy a 10D. It really is that simple.

[Carbon]

robertwgross wrote:

My comments were not meant to be condescending nor insulting nor sarcastic. I believe that the original posting was a major troll activity on somebody's part. It is difficult for me to believe that anybody could be so naive about product marketing. _THIS_ is the comment thread, and my comments are here...

---Bob Gross---


Try to think ahead when the 10D is gone. Let's call the next one the 11D. Will the current Rebel/300D even come close to the 11D? Heck no. When that time comes, hopefully a firmware update for the Rebel/300D will be ready, as well. Those 5 features added to the Rebel/300D will NOT make it a competitor to the 11D. It doesn't even make it a competitor to the current 10D! So Canon is NOT in danger of cannibalizing 10D sales by adding these 5 features to the Rebel/300D. I don't think that's naive thinking. It's forward thinking.

[KennyG]

Looks like someone bought a 300D and found out that he really should have bought a 10D and is now looking for support to correct his mistake.

It also demonstrates a total lack of understanding of Canon's or any other manufacturer's model+feature marketing.

[Carbon]

RichardtheSane wrote:
If you need these features, buy a 10D. It really is that simple.


If you want your 10D to not backfocus, buy a 1Ds. It really is that simple. Don't try to get Canon to fix it in firmware. By the way, your 10D actually has the same sensor as the EOS-1Ds, but it's just scaled and cropped down in firmware to 6.3 megapixels. Just live with it, and don't make a peep.

Haha, okay, it's not that simple, but if you want to give us all $600 to upgrade to the 10D, thanks. But until then, you can't blame us for trying to get Canon to unlock these features for us.

We're not asking for a magnesium body upgrade or a bigger memory buffer. It's just allowing users manual control over features that are already built-in.

[robertwgross]

Carbon wrote:

Try to think ahead when the 10D is gone.
...
So Canon is NOT in danger of cannibalizing 10D sales by adding these 5 features to the Rebel/300D. I don't think that's naive thinking. It's forward thinking.

Let me guess. You've never worked for a large Japanese company, have you?

---Bob Gross---

[Carbon]

robertwgross wrote:

Let me guess. You've never worked for a large Japanese company, have you?

---Bob Gross---


It's true, large Japanese keiretsus and corporations are not known for the most progressive thinking. Here's to hoping that Canon will be different.

Let's be honest, I know this is a long shot. And I really actually appreciate the feedback (in this thread :) ). Long shot as it is, it's worth a try, isn't it? I'll even pay for the postage.

I actually got this idea when my 10D was backfocusing heavily with my 24-70L at 70mm and I learned of the Korean "boycott" of the 10D. Sure, it was blown way out of proportion, but it certainly got Canon's attention. The regional reps I spoke to certainly were aware of it and I'm sure the fact that my Digital Rebel backfocuses less than my 10D is no accident on Canon's part.

[RichardtheSane]

If you want your 10D to not backfocus, buy a 1Ds
My 10D doesn't back focus :D

Canon have very carefully marketed the 10D and 300D, more carefully than some of us may realise, which is why I don't think they will add these features.

At the end of the day, I wish you luck in your quest and I hope you achieve some level of sucess. :)

[MarkH]

Carbon wrote:
Try to think ahead when the 10D is gone. Let's call the next one the 11D. Will the current Rebel/300D even come close to the 11D? Heck no. When that time comes, hopefully a firmware update for the Rebel/300D will be ready, as well.

Try to think ahead to the 301D, if the features that it doesn't get might be added later then it might be a good camera to buy instead of the 11D. I don't think that Canon want to encourage that sort of thinking.

When you buy the camera you know what features you are being offered and what price is being asked. Base your decision on those facts.

[MarkH]

Carbon wrote:
If you want your 10D to not backfocus

I have tested my 10D with my 28-135IS, 50 f2.8 and 75-300 and it doesn't back focus with any of them. It focuses pretty much bang on.

I am happy with the features that my 10D shipped with and will have fun taking pictures with it for several years. If there is a much better model available in 5 years time that makes it well worth upgrading to then I will make that purchase.

Canon would not want a customer to purchase a 10D because it offers certain features that the 300D does not, only to turn around and add those features to the 300D in a few months. Were they to do that there would be many unhappy 10D owners that would not have paid the extra had they known Canon was going to do that. For that reason alone Canon will never do what you are suggesting.

[bluebomberx]

Just for the record, a similar thread was started earlier this summer over at Rob Galbraith's site when the 10D came out. A few features were requested by the group that already existed in the 1D. When Chuck Westfall of Canon replied, he basically said that is why we sell a 10D and a 1D - if you required those features then you should've bought a 1D instead. I'm sure if he came across this thread, he would have the same comments concerning the Digital Rebel and the 10D. Believe me, Canon isn't going to create new features for the Digital Rebel with a firmware upgrade. It's just not going to happen.

[chris maddock]

Another point - what on earth makes people think that a simple firmware update can add these features, anyway?

Just one example - how do you know if the 300D mirror "can" be locked up in the first place? It's a different design mirror mechanism to any other EOS - maybe MLU capability isn't even built into the mechanism, in which case no firmware update will stand a earthly of adding it.

If you want these "additional" features, buy a 10D - the specs have been publically available for long enough, as have the reviews. If you can't base a purchasing decision on those.....

KRs
Chris

[BruceMcL]

Carbon wrote:
RichardtheSane wrote:
If you need these features, buy a 10D. It really is that simple.


If you want your 10D to not backfocus, buy a 1Ds. It really is that simple. Don't try to get Canon to fix it in firmware. By the way, your 10D actually has the same sensor as the EOS-1Ds, but it's just scaled and cropped down in firmware to 6.3 megapixels. Just live with it, and don't make a peep.

Haha, okay, it's not that simple, but if you want to give us all $600 to upgrade to the 10D, thanks. But until then, you can't blame us for trying to get Canon to unlock these features for us.

We're not asking for a magnesium body upgrade or a bigger memory buffer. It's just allowing users manual control over features that are already built-in.


I strongly suspect your statement that the 10D and the 1DS share the same sensor is just not correct. Aside from the greater pixel count of the 1DS, the 1DS also has a full frame sensor which the 10D does not. Pictures of all of the sensors have been published on the net. They are definitely different in size.

[Sketcher]

reggie0326 wrote: Now that I'm in the DSLR game, hopefully for life, Canon NEEDS to keep repeat customers happy, otherwise companies like Nikon can steal us away.
Thanks,
Reggie.
Those of you who are in danger of being "stolen" away by Nikon or others, are you going to join a similar petition in Nikon's forum insisting that the 'new' consumer grade D300 is "missing" features that are standard in the D100 just because it uses the same processor or has the same sensor size!?

As was mentioned, there is more than just firmware coding which is necessary for many of the 'features' which are being requested here. The statement "if you wanted those features you should have bought a 10D" is not insensitive or sarcastic. If you can't afford it, that's unfortunate but your financial situation does not position you for "rights" or special interest that no one else is privy too.

Canon will listen to requests and address improper form and function and if possible do so through well thought out firmware. *note I said "Improper". What Canon does however is give their patrons the benefit of the doubt that they will read the spec sheets and make an informed decision.

"keep their repeat customers happy?", I just checked over on one of the Nikon forums and looked for posts similar to this... I didn't find any worth noting... Now, that could either mean they don't have any "firmware request for nonexistent features" issues, or their customers simply understand the product specifications and the market each product is designed for. (I smell gasoline... and I've just gone and lit a match....\dons flame suit).

It'd be nice to get what you are asking for, but what you are asking for is a 10D. One thing you are certainly doing however is putting negative spin on an incredible product. There's nothing wrong with it, yet with all the drivel about being cheated out of features the very market that the 300D is designed for is the very market that will not likely understand that misnomer. But, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Really, I'm a nice guy and usually am more encouraging in my posts. Here, hold on; here's the encouragement part... "buy a 10D". :) couldn't resist. try seeing that statement through my eyes, it really is quite funny! :D.

**I hope you get the requests mentioned. That'd be incredibly awesome, unprecedented, ground-breaking and would certainly make more people happy than un-happy (at least referring to the 300D crowd). It would likely show that Canon made a mistake in releasing the 300D 'without' those features, but overall I think the world would be a better place. [supportive comment added to meet the requirements of the respectfully requested guideline for the proper operation of this post - but I'd like to request a firmware consideration to broaden the functionality of this post to address issues which it obviously was not designed to address, no matter how well thought out the original request was].

***If I were to request a feature that should be included on the 300D, it would be a sticker similar to the one posted in the dash of my friends Suzuki Sidekick "This Vehicle is not intended for Off Road Use" only the Canon sticker would read "This camera not intended to be used like a 10D". (I'm thinkin' my flame suit is going to do me absolutely no good after that comment... but ya gotta admit, it's a little funny ;).


I digress.

continue.

[GenDEM]

This thread is just a big joke/troll, right?

[ChrisNardone]

Carbon wrote:
RichardtheSane wrote:
If you need these features, buy a 10D. It really is that simple.


If you want your 10D to not backfocus, buy a 1Ds. It really is that simple.
I'm not a big fan of sarcasm in this forum, but that's funny.

[CyberDyneSystems]

There is a distinct difference between buying a camera/product that may be prone to a specific failure and wanting the manufacturer to repair/recall the defective product...

....and buying a less expensive camera/product,. and then asking the manufacturer to uprade it for free to the level of the more expensive product/camera.

Imagine if this were an automobile,.. computer,. or CD player.

You buy the the slower PC with a smaller software bundle and then ask the manufacturer to just give you the software bundle that goes with the high end graphics workstation????

The whole idea is quite absurd.

As BobGross said,. there is a reason that a company relaeses product lines at different price points. If not we would all have Krell Amplifiers,. Nakamichi Decks, Lambhorhini's.....

......and all our 70-200mm f/2.8 lenses would get free IS upgrades :D

[Belmondo]

Canon's motives are not altruistic; they are in it for the money. If they have a stable product that works with the feature set it was delivered with, they're not likely to fiddle with it. What you might see instead is some of these things incorporated into the next generation Digital Rebel (D300).

To ask them after the fact to upgrade a product you already saw fit to spend your money on is unrealistic. You're absolutely within your rights to deman 'bug fixes,' but little more.

Nonetheless, good luck. Canon might just fool us all.


Tom

[KennyG]

chris maddock wrote:
Another point - what on earth makes people think that a simple firmware update can add these features, anyway?

All this 'firmware upgrade' nonsense came from Phil's review when he intimated that the 10D features were disabled in the 300D. This has put some users on a 'holy grail' search in the belief that the 300D is capable of having these missing or reduced features magically added to their cameras.

There are too many hardware differences between the cameras to make me believe that this is possible, but it won't stop the misguided from chasing their holy grail.

Good luck to them is all I can say, and if they spot the firmware upgrade for 10D users to turn their cameras into a 1Ds, please let us know (and maybe pigs will fly).

[Belmondo]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
Sheer numbers,. in the time it takes me to post this another 10 Digital Rebels will be sold.....

Aha!!!

Someone new to add their name to the petition!!!

Is there no end to it?

[Rob Larsen]

Here are my petition and non-constructive comments moved to the right forum..... ;)


belmondo wrote:

Someone new to add their name to the petition!!!

Is there no end to it?

Better add my name to the petition. Put it on the line right next to Bob, Dan, Tom, Dale, orogeny, Ilya, EvilEnglishman, CDS, belmondo, and phi.

And, can I get Adobe to upgrade my PS7 with free PS CS software updates? I paid a lot of money for PS7 and it only seems fair...

[HoldenMan]

I for one know enough about marketing to know that offering the 300d with its feature set was shrewd marketing (and I'm sure most of the other people here are intelligent enough to realise that as well), and I know why it has so many software blocks on the features the 10D has. However, as consumers it's our role to attempt to convince businesses to provide us with a better service/product than they might offer us. No harm's going to come of this petition, and I don't think a single person here seriously expects anything to come of it, but there's no harm trying, so stop trying to bust our bubble.

[defordphoto]

HoldenMan wrote:
However, as consumers it's our role to attempt to convince businesses to provide us with a better service/product than they might offer us.

As others have already said, that product is already on the market and available for purchase. That feature-packed 300D can be in your hot little hands as we speak. It's called the Canon 10D.

[billh101]

KennyG wrote:
Looks like someone bought a 300D and found out that he really should have bought a 10D and is now looking for support to correct his mistake.


These are some amusing threads. Just to show that I'm always willing to help, if any of these poor people who are stuck with one of those feature-crippled 300D cameras would like to get rid of it (at a significant discount) so they can buy the 10D that they really need, I'd love to help you out and offer moral support. ;-) Let's get real here. Of course you'd like those features, but if they build the 300D with all those features, it wouldn't be a sub-$1,000 (US) camera anymore. It'd be a slightly discounted 10D with a plastic body.
Bill

[robertwgross]

Carbon wrote:
It's true, large Japanese keiretsus and corporations are not known for the most progressive thinking. Here's to hoping that Canon will be different.


There is a famous Japanese quotation that covers this. I can't read much Japanese, but it translates out somewhat like this:
"The nail that sticks up will be hammered down."

I found it to be very true.

---Bob Gross---

[NILOLIGIST]

I too agree with Dan, Bob, Tom and others...If Canon would dare make such changes then we 10D owners are due some changes too and it would go on and on.

If you want certain features and those features are available to you in another camera, you should purchase the camera with such features. It is not fair to Canon or the people that purchased the camera with such features to make changes for those that purchased a lesser model.

I don't understand this post or what you expect from Canon but I know that it would not be in their best interest to do as you asked....

My advice, don't buy a 10D buy a 1Ds, so you can get all the features you want now and now worry in the future. ROFLMAO...

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. It all boils down to cost and very clever marketing by Canon. They have just done what Bill Gates did with Windows. They opened the flood gates open for people that didn't want a DSLR to now join the ranks at a more affordable entrance.

Having the 300D I imagine will be a temporary situation, once it is apparent what can't be done, upgrading to 10D or higher will increase. I had the G3 and knew almost immediately it wasn't the camera for me, I procrastinated and finally took the plunge.

It is funny how some people know what they want but deliberately go for something else only to return to what they wanted to begin with.

If you have a 300D and now what some ridiculous upgrades what you really want is a 10D. Don't waste valuable time whinning, go do what you will end up doing anyway...Buy the 10D.

Meant to be as is...Not in anyway meant to offend.

NiL,

[FairyGodmother]

As a keen observer of threads in many different forums, particularly Canon ones, I just have to add my 10 cents to this discussion.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

You bought a Rebel but you should have bought a 10D.
So now it's Canon's fault! And you want a firmware upgrade!

What planet are you living on?

There's no wonder you have got right up folk's noses.

[EXA1a]

Come on, you happy 10D owners! You are so right in what you're saying but this thread was intended for 300D users.
I got a lot of nasty comments from some of you for an uncalled post - now you are doing it yourself. Give it a break. Just ignore the stupid 300D owners and leave them alone. They got enough punished with the color of their camera;-)

--Jens--

[CyberDyneSystems]

ROFLMAO! :D

O-kay,. I'm cleaning the beer off my monitor now!

[Belmondo]

Maybe we can get the guy who gave us the purple iMac to convince Canon to give us purple rebels.

OR lime green, or aqua, or orange.

Think outside the box, gang.

[BruceMcL]

". It'd be a slightly discounted 10D with a plastic body."

You mean the requested upgrades don't include a magnesium body? Gosh, it's hardly worth doing then!

Bruce