manual flash/manual camera ?

[sara505]

I am using a 10-D with a 430ex and have been generally dissatisfied with auto camera with ettl flash (lots of underexposed somewhat dull shots) and have been asking around for flash advice. It's been suggested I use manual camera and manual flash--I'm a little intrigued by this idea, have been playing with it, seems a little cumbersome, but doable--especially with distance scale and histogram. What are other ideas/experiences/suggestions on this subject? Anybody else out there unhappy with auto modes and flash? Using manual? I see there is another conversation about AV and FEC-interesting.
Sara

[Wilt]

1. Manual camera, manual flash...what photographers did for decades! If your flash had no Auto mode, all you need is a quick reference distance-f/stop table to replace the dials that were so common on flash units before Auto.

2. You can make life easier for shooting events if you practice 'zone shooting'. You prefocus and preset f/stop, then a practiced eye gauges distance and you shoot without perpetually focusing and resetting f/stop.

3. Canon ETTL is notorious for underexposure. Set FEC = +2/3 or +1EV to compensate for an inferior flash automation implementation when flash is the main source of light for the photo.

[cdifoto]

1. Manual camera, manual flash...what photographers did for decades! If your flash had no Auto mode, all you need is a quick reference distance-f/stop table to replace the dials that were so common on flash units before Auto.

2. You can make life easier for shooting events if you practice 'zone shooting'. You prefocus and preset f/stop, then a practiced eye gauges distance and you shoot without perpetually focusing and resetting f/stop.

3. Canon ETTL is notorious for underexposure. Set FEC = +2/3 or +1EV to compensate for an inferior flash automation implementation when flash is the main source of light for the photo.

1. They did that for decades...before the wham bam PJ style of wedding photography became so popular. I can't really see it working with anything that moves. Yeah maybe if you're exceptionally good...and fast...but just FEC and let the auto work for you. That's my opinion.

2. Wouldnt the person/persons have to be in the same spot at the same time, each time? I can only imagine that being good for a graduation where you only want/need to capture the receiving of the diploma.

3. I agree here. I'm almost always around +2/3, +1, +1 1/3 as the main. I drop back to -2 if I want just catchlight/fill.

[sara505]

1. They did that for decades...before the wham bam PJ style of wedding photography became so popular. I can't really see it working with anything that moves. Yeah maybe if you're exceptionally good...and fast...but just FEC and let the auto work for you. That's my opinion.

2. Wouldnt the person/persons have to be in the same spot at the same time, each time? I can only imagine that being good for a graduation where you only want/need to capture the receiving of the diploma.

3. I agree here. I'm almost always around +2/3, +1, +1 1/3 as the main. I drop back to -2 if I want just catchlight/fill.

Thanks for your reply. In point 3, what mode are you shooting in? Perhaps +2/3, +1. +1 1/3 would work for indoor shooting on auto mode? -2 for filling outdoors, say in open shade in AV?

[sara505]

1. They did that for decades...before the wham bam PJ style of wedding photography became so popular. I can't really see it working with anything that moves. Yeah maybe if you're exceptionally good...and fast...but just FEC and let the auto work for you. That's my opinion.

2. Wouldnt the person/persons have to be in the same spot at the same time, each time? I can only imagine that being good for a graduation where you only want/need to capture the receiving of the diploma.

3. I agree here. I'm almost always around +2/3, +1, +1 1/3 as the main. I drop back to -2 if I want just catchlight/fill.

Thank you. I agree, manual would not be good for most of my photography needs. Cumbersome and slow, but intriguing, nonetheless, as a way of having full control in some situations.
I will try FEC and auto, perhaps manual or AV outdoors with FEC. I especially was not able to get good results in auto with lots of backlight or bright sun, ie, a recent wedding on the beach on a bright afternoon.

[cdifoto]

I keep my camera on Manual Mode but adjust the FEC on flash as needed. It depends on the situation as to what that setting would be. I just guesstimate, check my histogram, and then readjust as necessary.

[Wilt]

<<2. Wouldnt the person/persons have to be in the same spot at the same time, each time? I can only imagine that being good for a graduation where you only want/need to capture the receiving of the diploma.>>

Other circumstance...at a dance, shooting photos of couples on the floor. You merely estimate your shooting distance and fire.

We rely on automation so much, many of our skills are never developed. If you do distance measurement and zone shooting a lot, you easily can estimage Zone A f/4, Zone B f/5.6 etc.

Whole generations of U.S. drivers have no clue how to drive a manual transmission car, so they have to pay more when renting in Europe or elsewhere. Another reliance on automation that has penalty of cost!

[cdifoto]

Well since I'm horrible at estimating distance, that wouldn't be for me.

And I CAN drive a manual transmission. I just choose to let my flash work for me.

[Wilt]

<< I can't really see it working with anything that moves. >>

Thousands of press photographers made it work. Tens of thousands of other photographers made it work (including me). Zone shooting is not that difficult. Assume GN=100 for illustration. f/8 is good for 10-16' (allows +-1/2EV from optimal), f/5.6 is good for 16'-22'. So what's so hard about learning to eyeball within those ranges and adjusting the f/stop setting one EV?! Not hard!

[sara505]

I keep my camera on Manual Mode but adjust the FEC on flash as needed. It depends on the situation as to what that setting would be. I just guesstimate, check my histogram, and then readjust as necessary.

Ok, I like this, and this is what I am leaning towards in general..but what about indoors when it's not possible to get an exposure on manual?

[cdifoto]

It's always possible to get an exposure in manual. I'm generally bouncing anyway so I can set my shutter and aperture to whatever I want. FEC is usually increased just because of the underexposure problem. If I want some ambient light in (if there even is any), I just meter for it with the camera. Since the flash and the camera are each metering their own thing (flash - subject, camera - ambience) it's quite simple.

[sara505]

It's always possible to get an exposure in manual. I'm generally bouncing anyway so I can set my shutter and aperture to whatever I want. FEC is usually increased just because of the underexposure problem. If I want some ambient light in (if there even is any), I just meter for it with the camera. Since the flash and the camera are each metering their own thing (flash - subject, camera - ambience) it's quite simple.

So, you up the ISO to get an exposure? Even if it means 800 or 1600 in a poorly lit reception hall?

[sara505]

<< I can't really see it working with anything that moves. >>

Thousands of press photographers made it work. Tens of thousands of other photographers made it work (including me). Zone shooting is not that difficult. Assume GN=100 for illustration. f/8 is good for 10-16' (allows +-1/2EV from optimal), f/5.6 is good for 16'-22'. So what's so hard about learning to eyeball within those ranges and adjusting the f/stop setting one EV?! Not hard!

This is the part that is intriguing to me. I think all manual can work, with lots of practice, would like to actually master it and have it as an option. I learned most of what I know about photography, many years ago, on a retina IIa, no light meter, just following the diagrams on the tri-x box. In a way, I long for those days. It's been so long since I've had to think about f-stops and apertures I almost forget what they are.

[Wilt]

'Distance estimation' can work even for people with poor ability to estimate distance! If you focus at an item and see what the lens distance setting is for that item, if you then can estimate many things at that same distance away they will have the same shooting distance. The slop inherent to zone shooting lets you easily deal with imprecision of estimates to specific subjects.

[cdifoto]

Just seems like annoyingly complex way to get over the "FEC as necessary" issue.

[sara505]

'Distance estimation' can work even for people with poor ability to estimate distance! If you focus at an item and see what the lens distance setting is for that item, if you then can estimate many things at that same distance away they will have the same shooting distance. The slop inherent to zone shooting lets you easily deal with imprecision of estimates to specific subjects.

the added factor is the power output choices on my 430. distance changes with each setting. so, choose one, stay within the zone for output, distance, aperture/shutter?

[Wilt]

cdi-link, think of it as an alternate way of doing things when the exposure automation is not available to us! I drive cars with an automatic transmission, and I will rent a car with an automatic transmission particularly if I am in a country where the steering wheel is on the right...one less thing to bother with. But I can drive a manual transmission (and have done so) shifting with the left hand, when no auto tranmissions was available! For photography the pricincple also applies, that develop alternate techniques because sometimes you have to fall back on them in emergencies. In shooting weddings, when the automation fails I have my old developed skills to fall back upon to save my bacon!

[sara505]

Just seems like annoyingly complex way to get over the "FEC as necessary" issue.

I'm eager to try both. I've been discouraged about my photography lately, mostly as it pertains to auto-settings, auto-flash. I'm encouraged by these conversations.

[cdifoto]

cdi-link, think of it as an alternate way of doing things when the exposure automation is not available to us! I drive cars with an automatic transmission, and I will rent a car with an automatic transmission particularly if I am in a country where the steering wheel is on the right...one less thing to bother with. But I can drive a manual transmission (and have done so) shifting with the left hand, when no auto tranmissions was available! For photography the pricincple also applies, that develop alternate techniques because sometimes you have to fall back on them in emergencies. In shooting weddings, when the automation fails I have my old developed skills to fall back upon to save my bacon!

I do understand that. I should give it a go. If only I could fully comprehend it. lol

[sara505]

cdi-link, think of it as an alternate way of doing things when the exposure automation is not available to us! I drive cars with an automatic transmission, and I will rent a car with an automatic transmission particularly if I am in a country where the steering wheel is on the right...one less thing to bother with. But I can drive a manual transmission (and have done so) shifting with the left hand, when no auto tranmissions was available! For photography the pricincple also applies, that develop alternate techniques because sometimes you have to fall back on them in emergencies. In shooting weddings, when the automation fails I have my old developed skills to fall back upon to save my bacon!

cdi-link?

[Wilt]

<<cdi-link>>

lara505?!?!? ;-)

[cdifoto]

tilt?!?!?

[sara505]

<<cdi-link>>

lara505?!?!? ;-)

Oh!! I thought cdi-link was code for some aspect of the zone system we were discussing! Ok, I'm slow today--it's the fellow from PA! Sorry!

[Wilt]

<<I should give it a go. If only I could fully comprehend it. lol>>

Not sure if you're playin' with me, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread...

Assume GN=100 for illustration. f/8 is good for 10-16' (allows +-1/2EV from optimal), f/5.6 is good for 16'-22'. GN100/8=12.5', GN100/6.3=15.9', NG100/10.5 = 9.5', so f/8 on the lens is good for 10-16' zone limits and permits 1.2 EV margin of error around f/8. Computations for other distance ranges and shooting apertures are done in the same way. In use, focus on something and see its range on the lens...assume, for example 12'...now your eye can see what 12' is like and easily match 'same distance as what I just focused on' -- even if you can't guess any distance normally without a large margin of error.

[cdifoto]

I do get what you're saying but that 10-16' is based on what focal length? Are we assuming "normal" 50mm? ie approx. 35mm on a crop? What distance to subject? DOF is always dependant on distance to subject and focal length combined with aperture...

Maybe I'm not comprehending your entire post...

[sara505]

I do get what you're saying but that 10-16' is based on what focal length? Are we assuming "normal" 50mm? ie approx. 35mm on a crop? What distance to subject? DOF is always dependant on distance to subject and focal length combined with aperture...

Maybe I'm not comprehending your entire post...

Also, what about power settings, or would you have to determine a guide number for each setting?

[Wilt]

<<I do get what you're saying but that 10-16' is based on what focal length?>>

ANY focal length...f/8 is f/8 no matter whether you use a 17mm lens or a 500mm lens. The angle of view at a certain distance changes, of course, but the exposure is not variable to focal length.

[cdifoto]

<<I do get what you're saying but that 10-16' is based on what focal length?>>

ANY focal length...f/8 is f/8 no matter whether you use a 17mm lens or a 500mm lens. The angle of view at a certain distance changes, of course, but the exposure is not variable to focal length.

I'm not talking exposure...I'm talking DOF. You wouldnt have the same DOF at 500mm as you do at 50mm...

[Wilt]

<<Also, what about power settings, or would you have to determine a guide number for each setting?>>

Certainly! The GN published for any flash is for a certain angle of light output and also for full power. The GN varies as you choose half or quarter power settings. The GN is easy to figure for partial power setting. For that example GN=100 unit, half power would be GN=71 (100/1.4) and quarter power is GN=50 (100/2).

And if the flash has a zoom head with variable angle of coverage, each focal length setting has its own GN. That is not so easy to compute directly, but I rely upon the flash itself to provide proportional output information for the different focal lengths. The old single focal length manual flash was much easier to cope with, in that regard. With today's flash you could set the flash at constant focal length (e.g. for 28mm wide angle) and ignore its variable focal length feature, to simplify computation.

[Wilt]

<<I'm not talking exposure...I'm talking DOF. You wouldnt have the same DOF at 500mm as you do at 50mm...>>

Yes, of course. Zone shooting also entails the zone focus, and at a single f/stop you have a constant DOF. It becomes somewhat irrelevant, for the purposes of rapid point and fire with a fixed focal length lens.

But if you introduce the technique with zoom lens, and vary focal length as well, that certainly complicates things a bit, since the accuracy of focus is more an issue at the tele focal length than at the wide angle end of things. 35mm lens on 20D at f/8 focused at 12' give 8.7'-19' DOF, but 70mm lens gets only 11'-13' DOF. So, yes, you refocus to keep things sharp, but you still use a constant 10-16' range for accuracy of exposure at f/8.

(Plus there is the annoyance of variable aperture --rather than fixed aperture-- wide open lenses..so don't shoot wide open, leave it at f/8!)

[PacAce]

Sara and/or CDI-INK, in case you haven't seen this yest, maybe the following link might help a little:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=146153

[cdifoto]

I was playing with my 580EX in M for a few minutes and it's quite easy since it has the scale on the back telling you what distance your given power is good for at any aperture you set...

...but I almost always bounce so that blows that out of the water. I guess the zone system pretty much only works for the "f/8 and be there direct flash" type shooting.

[PacAce]

I was playing with my 580EX in M for a few minutes and it's quite easy since it has the scale on the back telling you what distance your given power is good for at any aperture you set...

...but I almost always bounce so that blows that out of the water. I guess the zone system pretty much only works for the "f/8 and be there direct flash" type shooting.
The scales should still be good even if you are using bounce. You just need to figure out the total flash to ceiling (or wall) to subject distance and then open up the aperture by about a stop (this will vary depending on the type of surface you are bouncing off of) to account for the light loss due to bouncing the light.

[Curtis N]

Ok, I like this, and this is what I am leaning towards in general..but what about indoors when it's not possible to get an exposure on manual?Sara,

Give this thread (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=177622)a read, then do some experimenting around the house. I think it'll come to you.

Manual flash is always an option, but as soon as you bounce it or attach any sort of diffuser, the guide number/distance calculations become worthless. Expect a certain amount of trial and error either way, and keep an eye on your histogram.

[Curtis N]

The scales should still be good even if you are using bounce. You just need to figure out the total flash to ceiling (or wall) to subject distance and then open up the aperture by about a stop (this will vary depending on the type of surface you are bouncing off of) to account for the light loss due to bouncing the light.I did an experiment one night to compare the required aperture for direct flash vs. bounced. With an 8 ft. white ceiling, I shot a piece of white foam core about 10 feet away, with the flash set manually at full power. With the flash straight up and no bounce card attached, there was a five-stop difference in aperture required to get the histogram spike in roughly the same place.

I would also contend that flash-to-subject distance has less effect on required flash power when bouncing in a relatively small room. The light hits the ceiling and bounces all over the place, basically illuminating the entire room.

I have nothing against manual flash per se, and the thread you linked to is a valuable one (It's written by a pretty smart guy). But bounced flash is where E-TTL really shines. I have no doubt that I would miss a lot of shots, and incorrectly expose more of the shots I get, if I had to adjust flash power manually.

[PacAce]

I did an experiment one night to compare the required aperture for direct flash vs. bounced. With an 8 ft. white ceiling, I shot a piece of white foam core about 10 feet away, with the flash set manually at full power. With the flash straight up and no bounce card attached, there was a five-stop difference in aperture required to get the histogram spike in roughly the same place.

I would also contend that flash-to-subject distance has less effect on required flash power when bouncing in a relatively small room. The light hits the ceiling and bounces all over the place, basically illuminating the entire room.

I have nothing against manual flash per se, and the thread you linked to is a valuable one (It's written by a pretty smart guy). But bounced flash is where E-TTL really shines. I have no doubt that I would miss a lot of shots, and incorrectly expose more of the shots I get, if I had to adjust flash power manually.
Curtis, you're right. One stop to compensate for the bounce is really not enough (I should have done a better job of proof-reading my post :o ). What I should have said was to compensate for the bounce by opening up about two stops on average and then tweak from there depending on the ceiling.

As for your 5 stop difference, the only comment I can offer you is that with the flash pointed directly at a white foam core, you are not only getting the illumination of the foam core but also the reflection of the flash light off the surface of the foam core. That reflection will account for several stops right there.

I agree with you that for bounce, ETTL would be the way to go. As a matter of fact, for most types of flash work, ETTL would be the way to go as far as I'm concerned. However, this thread is specifically about some individuals wanting to try out and learn how to shoot flash in manual mode. I, for one, will not discourage that but rather encourage it. I think once one has had the opportunity to work with manual flash, they'll have a better appreciation of ETTL flash. Also, the principles one learns from using maunal flash is not wasted because a lot of that knowledge is applicable to using the strobes where ETTL is not an option. :)

[sara505]

I did an experiment one night to compare the required aperture for direct flash vs. bounced. With an 8 ft. white ceiling, I shot a piece of white foam core about 10 feet away, with the flash set manually at full power. With the flash straight up and no bounce card attached, there was a five-stop difference in aperture required to get the histogram spike in roughly the same place.

I would also contend that flash-to-subject distance has less effect on required flash power when bouncing in a relatively small room. The light hits the ceiling and bounces all over the place, basically illuminating the entire room.

I have nothing against manual flash per se, and the thread you linked to is a valuable one (It's written by a pretty smart guy). But bounced flash is where E-TTL really shines. I have no doubt that I would miss a lot of shots, and incorrectly expose more of the shots I get, if I had to adjust flash power manually.

This is all fabulous information, great conversation, helpful links--wonderful, thank you. What a great forum! I have learned so much here. I have another question: In AV mode with manual flash on, my shutter is "fixed" at 200. I can change the aperture but not the shutter. I think there's a custom function setting for the shutter speed in AV?

[cdifoto]

This is all fabulous information, great conversation, helpful links--wonderful, thank you. What a great forum! I have learned so much here. I have another question: In AV mode with manual flash on, my shutter is "fixed" at 200. I can change the aperture but not the shutter. I think there's a custom function setting for the shutter speed in AV?

Yeah it's a custom function to either hold it at 200 (max sync) or let it vary so you can use the flash as fill-only when it's attached. The custom function number depends on your camera model. For the XT it's CF-03.

[PacAce]

This is all fabulous information, great conversation, helpful links--wonderful, thank you. What a great forum! I have learned so much here. I have another question: In AV mode with manual flash on, my shutter is "fixed" at 200. I can change the aperture but not the shutter. I think there's a custom function setting for the shutter speed in AV?
For the 10D, it's C.Fn-03. You probably have yours set to 1.

[sara505]

I did an experiment one night to compare the required aperture for direct flash vs. bounced. With an 8 ft. white ceiling, I shot a piece of white foam core about 10 feet away, with the flash set manually at full power. With the flash straight up and no bounce card attached, there was a five-stop difference in aperture required to get the histogram spike in roughly the same place.

I would also contend that flash-to-subject distance has less effect on required flash power when bouncing in a relatively small room. The light hits the ceiling and bounces all over the place, basically illuminating the entire room.

I have nothing against manual flash per se, and the thread you linked to is a valuable one (It's written by a pretty smart guy). But bounced flash is where E-TTL really shines. I have no doubt that I would miss a lot of shots, and incorrectly expose more of the shots I get, if I had to adjust flash power manually.

Now I understand why a wedding I shot on a sunny beach recently in P with straight ETTL was on the undexreposed side: P in daylight diminishes the flash to "fill." What I wanted was to blast the shadows, which I can do in AV or M with ETTL +FEC, or with manual flash tested according to power and distance, correct? And in a reception hall or church or synagogue with little natural light, shoot in M or AV or even P, with ETTL and +FEC?

[sara505]

For the 10D, it's C.Fn-03. You probably have yours set to 1.
Thanks Leo. I checked and it's on 'auto,' not fixed at 200. It's 0.

[sara505]

Thanks Leo. I checked and it's on 'auto,' not fixed at 200. It's 0.

Seems that it's only fixed on 200 when manual flash is turned on, not on ettl or when the flash is turned off. ??

[sara505]

Yeah it's a custom function to either hold it at 200 (max sync) or let it vary so you can use the flash as fill-only when it's attached. The custom function number depends on your camera model. For the XT it's CF-03.

cdi-ink, it turns out I've got the cf set for variable, and it is variable, but not in (our old friend) "manual flash" mode, where it does not budge off of 200. I wonder why?

Sara

[PacAce]

Seems that it's only fixed on 200 when manual flash is turned on, not on ettl or when the flash is turned off. ??
OK, I think I know what's going on now. It's not that you're operating the flash in a low lighting condition but with lighting that requires a shutter speed faster than 1/200, right? Whenever you turn on the flash, the camera will automatically set the shutter speed to max sync speed (1/200 in your case). You can go slower but not faster unless you switch on hightspeed sync mode on the flash. So, if you want to use a faster shutter speed, just flip that HSS mode switch on the flash. When you do that you should see a light bolt with the letter H beside it in the viewfinder.

[Curtis N]

As for your 5 stop difference, the only comment I can offer you is that with the flash pointed directly at a white foam core, you are not only getting the illumination of the foam core but also the reflection of the flash light off the surface of the foam core. That reflection will account for several stops right there.I had the foam core at a bit of a sideways angle for that very reason.

But I also realized afterward that I had the flash head zoomed to 105mm when I bounced it. My guess is that if I pulled out the wide angle diffuser, as is my usual approach when bouncing, the difference wouldn't have been as great. A 3x5 card or Lumiquest 80/20 probably would have helped, too. I rarely bounce flash without one or the other. Hard telling what the difference would be with a Sto-fen.

[PacAce]

I had the foam core at a bit of a sideways angle for that very reason.

But I also realized afterward that I had the flash head zoomed to 105mm when I bounced it. My guess is that if I pulled out the wide angle diffuser, as is my usual approach when bouncing, the difference wouldn't have been as great. A 3x5 card or Lumiquest 80/20 probably would have helped, too. I rarely bounce flash without one or the other. Hard telling what the difference would be with a Sto-fen.
Based on some crude tests I did with my Sto-fen when I first got it, I didn't really see any difference except for the fact that with the Sto-fen, I still had shadows behind my subject whereas without it and the flash head in bounce position, there were no shadows behind the subject. Maybe other people's mileage varies but I was really disappointed with my Sto-fen. I had higher expectations from it. :confused:

[sara505]

OK, I think I know what's going on now. It's not that you're operating the flash in a low lighting condition but with lighting that requires a shutter speed faster than 1/200, right? Whenever you turn on the flash, the camera will automatically set the shutter speed to max sync speed (1/200 in your case). You can go slower but not faster unless you switch on hightspeed sync mode on the flash. So, if you want to use a faster shutter speed, just flip that HSS mode switch on the flash. When you do that you should see a light bolt with the letter H beside it in the viewfinder.

Well, I think that could be true in ETTL, but what I'm getting with manual flash mode (I may or may not ever use this, I'm trying diligantly to study every aspect of flash on my system) when I am in AV, for example, is fixed, unmovable 200 shutter speed; I can change the aperture, and this is linked to the power output/distance reading. As I change the aperture, the distance reading changes. I am figuring out that this distance reading is the number I should be watching. iow, with a 200 shutter, and flash output on 1/1, and I'm shooting a subject that is 3m away, I change the aperture until the distance scale says "3m."

When I'm in ETTL, AV and TV function as I have always known them to function in my Canon system.

Does this make any sense?

[Wilt]

Now I understand why a wedding I shot on a sunny beach recently in P with straight ETTL was on the undexreposed side: P in daylight diminishes the flash to "fill." What I wanted was to blast the shadows, which I can do in AV or M with ETTL +FEC, or with manual flash tested according to power and distance, correct? And in a reception hall or church or synagogue with little natural light, shoot in M or AV or even P, with ETTL and +FEC?

Sara, no only Av and Tv shoots with flash as fill, with shutter speed adjusted to the ambient light level (unless CF function forces it to 1/250). With P or M, the flash works as main light source. With M you get to presestablish the amount of available light which registers in the shot based upon the chose speed and f/top, with P you are stuck with 1/60 and the chosen f/stop.

[sara505]

Sara, no only Av and Tv shoots with flash as fill, with shutter speed adjusted to the ambient light level (unless CF function forces it to 1/250). With P or M, the flash works as main light source. With M you get to presestablish the amount of available light which registers in the shot based upon the chose speed and f/top, with P you are stuck with 1/60 and the chosen f/stop.

Oh, just when I thought I had figured it all out...I'm sure I read (http://hannemyr.com/photo/flash.html#umfe)(or maybe it was Canon Flash Bible) that P, when there's enough ambient light, functions as fill; but in a darker setting functions as main light; with TV and AV you expose for the ambient light, or background and ETTL flashes correct exposure, or fills, for the foreground, or subject...couldn't you use M with ETTL on a sunny day and fill the shadows using + FEC if necessary, or in open shade with -FEC?

[PacAce]

Well, I think that could be true in ETTL, but what I'm getting with manual flash mode (I may or may not ever use this, I'm trying diligantly to study every aspect of flash on my system) when I am in AV, for example, is fixed, unmovable 200 shutter speed; I can change the aperture, and this is linked to the power output/distance reading. As I change the aperture, the distance reading changes. I am figuring out that this distance reading is the number I should be watching. iow, with a 200 shutter, and flash output on 1/1, and I'm shooting a subject that is 3m away, I change the aperture until the distance scale says "3m."

When I'm in ETTL, AV and TV function as I have always known them to function in my Canon system.

Does this make any sense?
It doesn't matter evern if you're in Manual mode. If your shutter speed is faster than 1/200 and you slap on that flash and turn it on, the shutter speed will drop down to 1/200 unless you have HSS mode turned on.

Or are you saying that you can't even set the shutter speed to anything lower,like 1/60, either?

[PacAce]

Sara, no only Av and Tv shoots with flash as fill, with shutter speed adjusted to the ambient light level (unless CF function forces it to 1/250). With P or M, the flash works as main light source. With M you get to presestablish the amount of available light which registers in the shot based upon the chose speed and f/top, with P you are stuck with 1/60 and the chosen f/stop.
With P, the slowest shutter speed the camera will select is 1/60. However, it will select a faster shutter speed, up to the max sync speed, if the ambient lighting requires it. In other words, any shutter speed from 1/60 to 1/200 (or 1/250 depending on camera) can be selected in P mode.

[sara505]

quote]couldn't you use M with ETTL on a sunny day and fill the shadows using + FEC if necessary, or in open shade with -FEC?[/quote]

I guess "fill" is the wrong choice of words as M pertains to shooting on a sunny day--in which case you are trying to overpower the sun to a certain degree=main source.

[PacAce]

quote]couldn't you use M with ETTL on a sunny day and fill the shadows using + FEC if necessary, or in open shade with -FEC?

I guess "fill" is the wrong choice of words as M pertains to shooting on a sunny day--in which case you are trying to overpower the sun to a certain degree=main source.
Yes, you can. But, as I said earlier, you need to switch the flash to high speed sync mode (the switch is on the flash).

[sara505]

It doesn't matter evern if you're in Manual mode. If your shutter speed is faster than 1/200 and you slap on that flash and turn it on, the shutter speed will drop down to 1/200 unless you have HSS mode turned on.

Or are you saying that you can't even set the shutter speed to anything lower,like 1/60, either?

What I'm saying is the shutter speed does not move *at all* when I'm in manual flash mode and AV; conversely, the aperture does not move *at all* when I'm in TV and manual flash.

But when I'm in AV I can change the aperture, and the aperture change is directly linked to the power/output and distance settings. As I change the aperture, the distance read out changes; if I need more distance I "up" the power output. So I'm thinking this must be the way you shoot with manual flash and AV or TV, via whichever priority you have selected coupled with distance and power settings.

[PacAce]

What I'm saying is the shutter speed does not move *at all* when I'm in manual flash mode and AV; conversely, the aperture does not move *at all* when I'm in TV and manual flash.

But when I'm in AV I can change the aperture, and the aperture change is directly linked to the power/output and distance settings. As I change the aperture, the distance read out changes; if I need more distance I "up" the power output. So I'm thinking this must be the way you shoot with manual flash and AV or TV, via whichever priority you have selected coupled with distance and power settings.
OK, sorry, I missed the part about the flash being in manual mode. I thought you were saying that the camera was in manual mode.

With the flash in manual mode, the setting you should have the camera in is also manual mode. Don't ask me why Canon implemented it that way but that's just how it is.

[sara505]

oh, and I should add--the "fixed" shutter (or aperture) speed combined with the aperture of my choosing always equals "perfect exposure" on the camera's exposure scale. The control, in manual flash mode with AV or TV apparently, is combining the aperture (or shutter) with the output/distance scale. Fascinating.

[sara505]

OK, sorry, I missed the part about the flash being in manual mode. I thought you were saying that the camera was in manual mode.

With the flash in manual mode, the setting you should have the camera in is also manual mode. Don't ask me why Canon implemented it that way but that's just how it is.

According to Canon, you can be in M or AV with manual flash. As I said, I don't know if I'll ever use manual flash, but I love knowing how stuff works, and who knows, maybe some day I'll have to use manual flash for some reason, and now I know how.

[Wilt]

<< P, when there's enough ambient light, functions as fill; but in a darker setting functions as main light; with TV and AV you expose for the ambient light, or background and ETTL flashes correct exposure, or fills, for the foreground, or subject...couldn't you use M with ETTL on a sunny day and fill the shadows using + FEC if necessary, or in open shade with -FEC?>>

I had my answer in the definition of flash as main source of light, not considering fill functions apart from noting that Av and Tv the flash acts as fill not main source.

Yes, if light is bright enough in P mode it becomes fill. Trick is anticipating when it does what. (Is your brain calibrated to recognize 10EV without a meter? Or can it translate a shutter-fstop combination to EV value? Mine can't!)

[sara505]

Yes, if light is bright enough in P mode it becomes fill. Trick is anticipating when it does what. (Is your brain calibrated to recognize 10EV without a meter? Or can it translate a shutter-fstop combination to EV value? Mine can't!)

This explains why I was getting inconsistent results shooting in P--I expected it to act like my old Elan/540ez and Fuji Reala--perfect results every time.

I am learning a lot. Home sick with a cold, the only reason I've been able to devote so much time to this today.

Thanks so much for your help!

[sara505]

oh, and I should add--the "fixed" shutter (or aperture) speed combined with the aperture of my choosing always equals "perfect exposure" on the camera's exposure scale. The control, in manual flash mode with AV or TV apparently, is combining the aperture (or shutter) with the output/distance scale. Fascinating.

actually, forget TV--doesn't work at all--can't get an exposure with TV and manual flash.

Whew, I'm exhausted.

[PacAce]

According to Canon, you can be in M or AV with manual flash. As I said, I don't know if I'll ever use manual flash, but I love knowing how stuff works, and who knows, maybe some day I'll have to use manual flash for some reason, and now I know how.
Yes, it'll work in Av mode, too, but you're stuck with max sync speed for the shutter speed so you'll have practically no control over your ambient lighting other than with the aperture which also affects the flash output registered on the image.

BTW, don't let the exposure meter in the viewfinder fool you (in Av mode, manual flash). Just because it's in the middle does not mean that you're going to get a perfectly exposed shot. You'll have to match the actual subject-to-flash distance with what's showing on the flash LCD screen or else, you'll end up with an over or under-exposed image.

[sara505]

BTW, don't let the exposure meter in the viewfinder fool you (in Av mode, manual flash). Just because it's in the middle does not mean that you're going to get a perfectly exposed shot. You'll have to match the actual subject-to-flash distance with what's showing on the flash LCD screen or else, you'll end up with an over or under-exposed image.

Exactly. It's only "perfect" if you match the distance from subject to reading on screen.