Going to the beach this weekend, need flash help.

[In2Photos]

My family is heading to the beach this weekend and it will be our 14 month old daughter's first "real" trip. Previously it had been off season and just a quick pic at the beach. However this trip will be different and I want to make sure I capture it as best as I can.

I bought the 430EX about 3 weeks ago and it has practically welded itself to my camera. I have been using it for everything, indoor lowlight, indoor fill flash against bright windows/doors, outdoor bounced off a low ceiling covered porch (vinyl siding reflects pretty good BTW), and some flash shots set at 45 or 60 degree. I have had pretty good results, but still haven't had enough time to play around and see what works best. Each time I get to use it I am taking shots at a family get together, or my daughter swimming at the pool in which I am trying to capture certain moments rather than playing around with the camera.

What I would like to know is what typical settings for the flash work best in harsh sunlight, daytime photos. I usually shoot in Av because my lighting at the typical outdoor gatherings for us varies drastically from full shade to partial shade to full sun. I was thinking of using Manual mode and metering the sky, but from here should I use direct flash, any -EC or -FEC? I only have a Stofen Omnibounce, should I look at another type of diffuser? I know I can get some great shots with enough playing around, but I want to maximize the possibility for those great shots.

Scmoelzel took some great beach shots here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=166904) with his flash and while I am not expecting shots of his caliber it certainly would be nice.:D

Also, should I consider getting a CPL or possibly a ND/GND? I have never used them but might want to get one to protect the lens from the sand. I will most likely be using my Tamron.

[dicky109]

What I would like to know is what typical settings for the flash work best in harsh sunlight, daytime photos. I usually shoot in Av because my lighting at the typical outdoor gatherings for us varies drastically from full shade to partial shade to full sun. I was thinking of using Manual mode and metering the sky, but from here should I use direct flash, any -EC or -FEC? I only have a Stofen Omnibounce, should I look at another type of diffuser? I know I can get some great shots with enough playing around, but I want to maximize the possibility for those great shots.

Scmoelzel took some great beach shots here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=166904) with his flash and while I am not expecting shots of his caliber it certainly would be nice.:D
Your answer is here in that thread
Thanks for the comments and I don't use any FEC. Just set the flash to hi-speed sync and fire away!! Manual mode always
For a really great look at flash photography, check NK guy's bible at http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

Have fun,

[In2Photos]

Your answer is here in that thread

For a really great look at flash photography, check NK guy's bible at http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

Have fun,


I realize that he used no FEC, but was it direct, diffused with anything?

I have the EOS bible printed and have read it, but didn't remeber anything specific about this type of shooting. I guess I need to read it again.

[tweatherred]

I was at the beach with our 15 month old last week and got some pretty decent shots in harsh light (though not as good as the ones Schmoelzel posted) using manual mode, shutter 250, circular polarizer, f/8-11 and experimenting some with varying the flash exposure on my 580 EX. The best bet is to experiment as much as possible before you start trying to get shots of a moving toddler. The ND filters you mentioned might be useful, but I only used my graduated ND when trying to get sunsets.

[scottbergerphoto]

Try to use the sun as you would a main studio light, coming in at an angle of about 45 degrees. Then use your flash for fill. The flash will most likely need to be set to FP/HSS and set to -1 to -1+2/3FEC as it's just to fill in shadows. Which camera metering mode is a matter of personal choice. Just remember that you are combining two exposures, the ambient light, controlled by the camera meter, and the flash exposure controlled by ETTL2 and FEC. You can also use a reflector instead of flash-white poster board, styrafom, foam core, or a collapseable photoflex disc.

[In2Photos]

I was at the beach with our 15 month old last week and got some pretty decent shots in harsh light (though not as good as the ones Schmoelzel posted) using manual mode, shutter 250, circular polarizer, f/8-11 and experimenting some with varying the flash exposure on my 580 EX. The best bet is to experiment as much as possible before you start trying to get shots of a moving toddler. The ND filters you mentioned might be useful, but I only used my graduated ND when trying to get sunsets.

Sounds good. Those are about the settings I figured for a nice sunny day. I might have to pick up a pplarizer before I go.

Try to use the sun as you would a main studio light, coming in at an angle of about 45 degrees. Then use your flash for fill. The flash will most likely need to be set to FP/HSS and set to -1 to -1+2/3FEC as it's just to fill in shadows. Which camera metering mode is a matter of personal choice. Just remember that you are combining two exposures, the ambient light, controlled by the camera meter, and the flash exposure controlled by ETTL2 and FEC. You can also use a reflector instead of flash-white poster board, styrafom, foam core, or a collapseable photoflex disc.

Thanks. I have never used any studio lighting but I completely understand what you mean here. Thanks for the easy to understand version.:) I wish I had some sort of reflector but for now, I think the flash will have to make due.

[dicky109]

Try to use the sun as you would a main studio light, coming in at an angle of about 45 degrees. Then use your flash for fill. The flash will most likely need to be set to FP/HSS and set to -1 to -1+2/3FEC as it's just to fill in shadows. Which camera metering mode is a matter of personal choice. Just remember that you are combining two exposures, the ambient light, controlled by the camera meter, and the flash exposure controlled by ETTL2 and FEC. You can also use a reflector instead of flash-white poster board, styrafom, foam core, or a collapseable photoflex disc.

Hey Scott,

Its great to see you back at POTN. Hope your troubles are behind you. You have always been one of the most knowledgeable and generous with that knowledge of anybody here and your contributions have been missed.

In your absence, we've had too many lame answers from guys like me.:rolleyes:

[RAitch]

Make sure the high speed sync is on... so you can use speeds faster than 1/250.
If you use Av mode, the flash won't adjust for the flash... it'll be just like taking a shot without the flash. That way, you can drop the FEC and aim it directly at your subject so it'll be a nice soft (not powerful) light to fill in the shadows.

What you may find is the sky can start blowing out. If you drop the EC a bit, the ambient light (background sky) will darken and will start to bring the colours back in. If you have a polarizer, that'll help a lot with the blue sky as well.
Then, you might have to adjust your FEC to properly expose your subject.

Basically, you'll have to chimp since you're learning.
If you're shooting with the sun or across the sun, try setting up in Av mode with 0 or -1/3EC and -1 2/3 FEC with HSS on your flash.
If you're shooting into the sun, try dropping your exposure even more to either -1/3 or -2/3 EC.
You can use Evaluative metering for this, but it can be inconsistent depending on your subject... but with a couple test shots, you're laughing.

If you want to be consistent, you can also try spot/partial metering off of the sky and try setting your EC to +1 1/3 or +1 2/3 and locking with *.... but you'll have to play to get the results you want.

That's just some of my two cents... maybe it's only a penny.

[scottbergerphoto]

Hey Scott,

Its great to see you back at POTN. Hope your troubles are behind you. You have always been one of the most knowledgeable and generous with that knowledge of anybody here and your contributions have been missed.

In your absence, we've had too many lame answers from guys like me.:rolleyes:
Thank you. That's very nice of you to say. Glad to be back.

[jrsforums]

I realize that he used no FEC, but was it direct, diffused with anything?

I have the EOS bible printed and have read it, but didn't remeber anything specific about this type of shooting. I guess I need to read it again.

Diffusing does not really matter when you are shooting in that much ambient light.

One, very important, thing to remember. The real objective of fill flash should not be to light the subject. It's real purpose is to narrow the EV range enough to bring it within the dynamic range of digital capture. If you accomplish this, the image will look natural with all the natural looking directional light of a non flash shot, but be printable without deep shadows or blown highlights.

John

[In2Photos]

Make sure the high speed sync is on... so you can use speeds faster than 1/250.
If you use Av mode, the flash won't adjust for the flash... it'll be just like taking a shot without the flash. That way, you can drop the FEC and aim it directly at your subject so it'll be a nice soft (not powerful) light to fill in the shadows.

What you may find is the sky can start blowing out. If you drop the EC a bit, the ambient light (background sky) will darken and will start to bring the colours back in. If you have a polarizer, that'll help a lot with the blue sky as well.
Then, you might have to adjust your FEC to properly expose your subject.

Basically, you'll have to chimp since you're learning.
If you're shooting with the sun or across the sun, try setting up in Av mode with 0 or -1/3EC and -1 2/3 FEC with HSS on your flash.
If you're shooting into the sun, try dropping your exposure even more to either -1/3 or -2/3 EC.
You can use Evaluative metering for this, but it can be inconsistent depending on your subject... but with a couple test shots, you're laughing.

If you want to be consistent, you can also try spot/partial metering off of the sky and try setting your EC to +1 1/3 or +1 2/3 and locking with *.... but you'll have to play to get the results you want.

That's just some of my two cents... maybe it's only a penny.

Thanks Richard. I will try this out along with some shots in Manual and see how things go. I wasn't able to pick up a polarizer before I head out, but I should be OK.

[RAitch]

It should be OK.
If your subject is too bright, turn down the FEC.
If the background is too bright, turn down the EC and check your FEC.

If using M mode, try just metering off of the sky with partial then adjust your flash output.

I'm sure you'll get some nice shots... make sure you post them here or send me a link later... I want to check them out.

[In2Photos]

It should be OK.
If your subject is too bright, turn down the FEC.
If the background is too bright, turn down the EC and check your FEC.

If using M mode, try just metering off of the sky with partial then adjust your flash output.

I'm sure you'll get some nice shots... make sure you post them here or send me a link later... I want to check them out.

Ok will do. I think I have my head wrapped around the concepts pretty good. Now it is just time to apply them. They should be up early next week, if they are good.:)

[whiskaz]

I look forward to seeing your results! When shooting someone in bright conditions I usually set my aperture, adjust my shutter speed to correctly expose the background and shoot away - using some +/- FEC as needed. I've gotten some OK shots but some also seem a bit flat. I just added a diffuser to my gear (the lumiquest promax setup), so we'll see if that helps bring back some of the detail.

I'm still a bit confused about how you can easily use Av or Tv for this purpose since you'd constantly be pointing your camera at the background, locking exposure, and shooting.... instead of just setting the exposure for the background once and shooting away.

[In2Photos]

Diffusing does not really matter when you are shooting in that much ambient light.

One, very important, thing to remember. The real objective of fill flash should not be to light the subject. It's real purpose is to narrow the EV range enough to bring it within the dynamic range of digital capture. If you accomplish this, the image will look natural with all the natural looking directional light of a non flash shot, but be printable without deep shadows or blown highlights.

John

Thanks John. Somehow I missed this post earlier but found it now. I think I have the concepts down now, but the real test will be from the shots this weekend.

[In2Photos]

I look forward to seeing your results! When shooting someone in bright conditions I usually set my aperture, adjust my shutter speed to correctly expose the background and shoot away - using some +/- FEC as needed. I've gotten some OK shots but some also seem a bit flat. I just added a diffuser to my gear (the lumiquest promax setup), so we'll see if that helps bring back some of the detail.

I'm still a bit confused about how you can easily use Av or Tv for this purpose since you'd constantly be pointing your camera at the background, locking exposure, and shooting.... instead of just setting the exposure for the background once and shooting away.

I typically use Av for most of my shots because the lighting changes so drastically when I am shooting. Very rarely have I been in a situation where my lighting was consistent. So far I have had pretty good results with using Av and fill flash, but haven't used it in direct bright sunny conditions like at the beach. I tend to think that if my conditions are rather constant that my results would be better in M mode, but I haven't tried yet. So I follow your method of thinking in the last part. Perhaps we just need to try it out and see.:)

[whiskaz]

There's a great tutorial on flash @ http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/ that I'm just revisiting (since I understand the overal concept a bit better now). The author uses Av and Tv a lot - but makes it sound as if your camera will always meter for the ambient light, but in my experience, I have to physically move my camera so that the background fills the frame, lock exposure, compose, shoot. Unless of course you were metering off of the person somehow, in which case, the movement wouldn't be so drastic.

May I ask what steps you take when shooting in Av with fill flash? Just point and shoot?

[In2Photos]

There's a great tutorial on flash @ http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/ that I'm just revisiting (since I understand the overal concept a bit better now). The author uses Av and Tv a lot - but makes it sound as if your camera will always meter for the ambient light, but in my experience, I have to physically move my camera so that the background fills the frame, lock exposure, compose, shoot. Unless of course you were metering off of the person somehow, in which case, the movement wouldn't be so drastic.

May I ask what steps you take when shooting in Av with fill flash? Just point and shoot?

Yup, just point and shoot, no metering of background (sky). Evaluative tries to expose for the whole frame, not just your subject, which is why your subject is typically underexposed with bright backgrounds and no fill flash. However if using partial/spot it would most likely expose for your subject and blow out the background. Try it out when you get the chance. My shots always had blown backgrounds, but now I see sky, too. Like this shot.

No flash, look at the background-overexposed and foreground-underexposed.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=84233&d=1149449849

Using fill flash, probably not correctly at this stage, I think the day after I got the flash. (I am by means saying this shot is perfect, just showing what fill flash can help achieve.)

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=85112&d=1149735737

[RAitch]

Don't fall into the "mental trap" of Av "exposing for ambient."
Lets simplify this without using technical gobble-dee-goop.

If you shoot a shot without flash in Av mode and evaluative metering mode... it will take a shot and expose it to your current meter setting (0EV).
If you add a flash in Av, this function doesn't change. The camera acts like the flash isn't even there (will pick the same settings).

So, if you take a shot with a flash, it'll have the same settings. These settings will produce a background that's exposed similar to the shot without the flash. Then, when you control the flash exposure compensation, it'll lighten up your subject because it's within the flash reach... the flash won't bounce off of distant trees with significant power.

So, if you use Av with a flash and use Evaluative, in a sense you're still metering for the ambient light... considering your flash is only adding fill light on your subject. That's why at least a stop of negative FEC is recommended... you don't need much fill light.

With this method, you don't have to meter off the sky with your meter set to +1 1/3 EC then recompose and all that. Just set it to 0EC and take the shot. Actually, on 0EC you may notice the sky blowing out... in that case, drop the EC a couple of thirds and the "ambient light" will be a bit darker.

The other problem with taking shots in manual is the lighting will change if you change your angles. You'll have to adjust for that.
For example, shooting down on a subject with the sun behind you vs. shooting up at your subject with the sun in the frame.
Av helps cheat that... but both methods will work and you should know how to use both.

Actually, pulling off a shot into a sunset with Av mode is pretty difficult... and a perfect example of why you should know how to use both methods. It's easy on M mode.

You can't argue against the ease of results using Av mode. The shots I took of Tyler on the beach a while ago are what I like to call "miracle shots." I wasn't even looking through the camera. Set the lens to 24mm, pick an aperture, dial in the FEC and hold the camera close to the ground and eyeball the composition from above. The camera was inches from the ground and there was no way I'd be able to frame that up by looking. Even with an eyecup adapter, I'd probably end up with a hood full of sand from the little guy.

If you don't use evaluative mode, you'll have to make sure you're metering off of the right part of your image. Especially if you're not using the center point focus. This again is a case where CF4-1 is not ideal. You need the * button to lock exposure when using a speedlight by firing a pre-flash.
In this case, you can either choose to meter off of the sky (dialing in +1 1/3 or +1 2/3 EC) or your subject (somewhere around 0EC) depending on what you want. It's probably the best idea to meter off of the sky since most people are worried about blowing it out.

By dialing in +1 2/3 EC on the meter in Av mode, then looking at the sky and pressing *, you're telling the camera to expose the sky at +1 2/3 on the meter... which will NOT blow out. ** you can drop it even more if you'd like more colour saturation
The flash obviously won't affect the sky exposure, and thus you can control your subject exposure using the FEC to control how much flash light hits them.

Hope that helps.

[whiskaz]

Great explanation and great example shots.

I guess being in evaluative mode is the key for P&S in Av. I'll give it a shot tonight. At first I was a bit confused by the +1 1/3 EC but that makes sense considering the fact that you are metering the entire scene and not just the background.

Of course FEL is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I also made the mistake of going to CF4-1 - tried to go back to half-shutter for focus and man was it hard to do!

[In2Photos]

Don't fall into the "mental trap" of Av "exposing for ambient."
Lets simplify this without using technical gobble-dee-goop.

If you shoot a shot without flash in Av mode and evaluative metering mode... it will take a shot and expose it to your current meter setting (0EV).
If you add a flash in Av, this function doesn't change. The camera acts like the flash isn't even there (will pick the same settings).

So, if you take a shot with a flash, it'll have the same settings. These settings will produce a background that's exposed similar to the shot without the flash. Then, when you control the flash exposure compensation, it'll lighten up your subject because it's within the flash reach... the flash won't bounce off of distant trees with significant power.

So, if you use Av with a flash and use Evaluative, in a sense you're still metering for the ambient light... considering your flash is only adding fill light on your subject. That's why at least a stop of negative FEC is recommended... you don't need much fill light.

With this method, you don't have to meter off the sky with your meter set to +1 1/3 EC then recompose and all that. Just set it to 0EC and take the shot. Actually, on 0EC you may notice the sky blowing out... in that case, drop the EC a couple of thirds and the "ambient light" will be a bit darker.

The other problem with taking shots in manual is the lighting will change if you change your angles. You'll have to adjust for that.
For example, shooting down on a subject with the sun behind you vs. shooting up at your subject with the sun in the frame.
Av helps cheat that... but both methods will work and you should know how to use both.

Actually, pulling off a shot into a sunset with Av mode is pretty difficult... and a perfect example of why you should know how to use both methods. It's easy on M mode.

You can't argue against the ease of results using Av mode. The shots I took of Tyler on the beach a while ago are what I like to call "miracle shots." I wasn't even looking through the camera. Set the lens to 24mm, pick an aperture, dial in the FEC and hold the camera close to the ground and eyeball the composition from above. The camera was inches from the ground and there was no way I'd be able to frame that up by looking. Even with an eyecup adapter, I'd probably end up with a hood full of sand from the little guy.

If you don't use evaluative mode, you'll have to make sure you're metering off of the right part of your image. Especially if you're not using the center point focus. This again is a case where CF4-1 is not ideal. You need the * button to lock exposure when using a speedlight by firing a pre-flash.
In this case, you can either choose to meter off of the sky (dialing in +1 1/3 or +1 2/3 EC) or your subject (somewhere around 0EC) depending on what you want. It's probably the best idea to meter off of the sky since most people are worried about blowing it out.

By dialing in +1 2/3 EC on the meter in Av mode, then looking at the sky and pressing *, you're telling the camera to expose the sky at +1 2/3 on the meter... which will NOT blow out. ** you can drop it even more if you'd like more colour saturation
The flash obviously won't affect the sky exposure, and thus you can control your subject exposure using the FEC to control how much flash light hits them.

Hope that helps.

That is what I said, right?:D

[RAitch]

Great explanation and great example shots.

I guess being in evaluative mode is the key for P&S in Av. I'll give it a shot tonight. At first I was a bit confused by the +1 1/3 EC but that makes sense considering the fact that you are metering the entire scene and not just the background.

Of course FEL is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I also made the mistake of going to CF4-1 - tried to go back to half-shutter for focus and man was it hard to do!
You wouldn't want to set +1 1/3 if you were in evaluative unless you can fit only the sky into your viewfinder before locking the exposure.

If you set +1 1/3 on evaluative and just took a shot of somebody, it would be overexposed.
Since evaluative uses the data from the entire image equally, you'd be saying that you want the average of the image to be +1 1/3 over mid grey... that's a high key shot.
Again, if you looked straight up at the sky and locked in on evaluative mode, you'd be telling the camera that the average of the sky above you should represent +1 1/3.

When you press the * button to lock exposure, you're basically telling the camera that whatever you are looking at for that moment should be exposed to your meter setting. If you're using evaluative, it'll calculate the average of the entire image. If you're using spot metering, it'll pick the settings so the spot within the spot meter circle is exposed correctly.

If you look at the sky and put in +2EC and lock exposure on the brightest spot, that brightest spot would fall at the right edge of the histogram and the rest would relatively fall in.
If you look at the ground and press * to lock exposure at +2EC, the ground will be white and everything will be overexposed (unless the ground is actually bright white).

After locking exposure on something, you have some time before the settings clear to compose your shot with those settings.


If I'm using evaluative with fill flash in Av, I'll use 0 EC, -1/3 EC or -2/3 EC depending on where the sun is. And I won't lock exposure on anything, I'll just shoot (for a typical shot).

If you want to use spot/partial modes, you should be careful and lock meter each time so you know what exposure you'll end up with.

[RAitch]

That is what I said, right?:D
Probably.... just without all that psycho-babel

[whiskaz]

Alright, I guess I was confused about the +1 1/3 EC. Think I've got it now though, seriously ;)

Though I'm not sure why you would want to use +1 1/3EC (I assume to help expose your subject), when you're using fill, except to tone down the fill some. In which case you could just use - FEC?

[RAitch]

No, you're using +1 1/3 (or something close) to meter off the sky. That's telling the camera to expose the sky to +1 1/3... everything else will follow suit.

As a result, your subject will probably be a bit dark. That's where the flash comes in. But firing at 0 FEC might be a little too much power... so you're filling with -1 FEC of light from the flash.

If you just use FEC, your background won't change and you'll still have blowouts in the sky. The idea I use is to set your EC for the background (ie sky) and set the FEC for the foreground (ie subject).

Don't think of the +1 1/3 as exposing for your subject. That's if you want to meter off of the sky.
Under the same technique, you could meter -1 2/3 EC on a shadow spot... which would tell the camera to expose the shadow at -1 2/3 and the rest would follow (subject brighter... sky even brighter)

Again, you probably only want to meter off of the sky using partial/spot metering. If you're using evaluative, you don't want to set a high EC because you'd affect the entire image.

So, if you use evaluative metering in Av... try setting EC to between 0 and -2/3 EC. Try your flash at -1 1/3 FEC.

If you're using spot/partial metering in Av... set your EC to how bright you want the sky (perhaps +1 2/3) and look at the sky and press * (with CF4-0) to lock exposure based on the sky at +1 2/3. Then recompose your shot and take a picture... still with probably somewhere around -1 1/3 FEC.
With the same technique, you can try metering off of your subject's face. To do that, dial in around 0EC and press * while centered on their face (fill the spot/partial circle). Then compose and fire a shot with STILL around -1 1/3 FEC. Here you're still using a soft flash... but you're telling the camera to expose the face to mid grey (0 EC). With the soft fill flash, it should look good... but you might still get blown out skies.

You really just have to juggle with the EC and FEC settings. Just think that EC will control your background (ambient light) and your FEC will add some light to what it can hit (subject/foreground).
Normally, I just shoot in Av on Evaluative with -1/3 EC and -1 2/3 FEC as a starter test shot and then adjust. (I may have said something a bit different... but that's the "ball park" settings I start with)


I'm a little confused how Schmoelzel was pulling off those beautiful shots with 0FEC... but I think that may have something to do with the pro body. I've always found that 0FEC produces harsh looking flash... that looks too powerful. With distance, you may need more FEC though. I like shooting up close.

[whiskaz]

Sorry if I'm being dense :)

I guess maybe I'm just a bit confused by the concept of EC. I don't often use it. It would seem that by using + EC, you would overexpose the sky (slower shutter speed in the case of Av) or underexpose it with - EC (faster shutter in Av).

Why use EC at all when using partial/spot and metering for the sky, assuming you are using flash? You would tell the camera to correctly expose the sky/background and then let the flash expose your subject, with +/- FEC to taste.

I don't mean to hijack this thread either, but this discussion seems on topic :)

[RAitch]

OK. when using spot metering, the camera calculates based on the stuff ONLY within the spot metering circle.
If you press the * button, the camera will do this analysis right then instead of when you take the shot. This is handy when you want to meter off of something other than what surrounds the center point when you take a shot.

Also, when you press * to lock exposure, the camera will adjust settings (and lock them) so that what's inside the spot meter circle will be exposed to what you have dialed in on the meter.

EXAMPLES:
Lets say it's a sunny day. lets say you have 0 EC on your meter (Av mode). If you look at a tree (green leaves), lock the exposure (*), and take a picture.... it will be close to a "normal" looking shot. You told the camera to expose the tree to 0EC (mid grey).

Now, with 0EC still, if you look at a white cloud and press the * button, then take a picture of the tree... it'll be REALLY underexposed.
WHY? Because you told the camera that the white clouds should be exposed to 0EC... or mid grey. The trees are much darker than the clouds... so they'll be even darker than mid grey (relatively).

If you have 0EC and look at the black road and lock exposure, you're telling the camera to expose the road at 0 EC. Now when you take a picture of the tree... it'll be REALLY bright... and the sky (if in your shot) will be ghostly white.

Now... if you set -1 1/3 EC and lock the meter off of the black road, you're telling the camera that the road is dark... and should come out like -1 1/3.
When you take the shot, the road will seem black in the shot... the tree will be brighter (closer to 0EC) and the sky will be bright (close to +2 EC).

If you want to meter off of the sky... ask yourself where you want the sky to fall on the meter (from -2 to +2). At +2, the sky would appear white and borderline blowout. You don't want it THAT bright... so that's why you'd set it for +1 1/3 or +1 2/3... so it's bright, but will still retain some colour and detail. Then lock the exposure with the * button.

This works with or without a flash... but in order to pre-flash the flash... you need CF4-0 (CF4-1 won't pre-fire the flash since * is for focus).

EXERCISE
Set your camera in M mode. Set it to Spot meter (or partial if you don't have spot).
Look at the sky and adjust the settings so the meter shows at the right edge (meaning the sky will be bright in your image) but not blinking (which would make it over exposed).
USE ANY APERTURE AND SHUTTER SPEED - WE'RE NOT TAKING A PICTURE

Then, once those settings are locked in, look around. Look at the ground... where does it fall on the meter?
Look at a tree... where does it fall?
Look at a person's face... is it around 0EC?

That's what I tend to do when setting up a shot in M mode... I look at everything that's going to be in frame to see where it'll fall on the meter, then adjust the settings if something's not right.

Often you'll have to sacrifice either blowing out the sky... or making totally black shadows. In that case, if you're shooting JPEG, you can try dropping the contrast setting to try to fit more range into your shot... or shoot multiple exposures on a tripod (bracketting).



Anyway, after you get used to seeing where different things fall on the meter when you're in manual mode... the same thinking applies to Av mode.

Think first, "what do I want to meter off of?" Then think "where should that fall on the meter?" When you know... set that on the Av EC meter... and lock the exposure using the * button.


Does that help?
To answer your specific question... you use partial/spot metering so that you can pin-point what you want to meter off of. If you're using a 35mm prime to do a landscape shot... it'll be hard to get an accurate reading on a distant barn (using evaluative) unless you walk up to it. By using partial/spot... you can aim at very specific things to get the reading.... instead of basing it on the entire frame (which will contain other stuff as well).

[whiskaz]

LOL RAitch. Nice explanation. I guess we're kind of going in circles. I suppose I understand the concept but I'm not totally convinced on the why.

I understand the different metering modes (evaluative, partial, spot, etc). I guess I can understand making use of EC when you realize that no matter what you meter off of (assuming spot or partial) the reading isn't going to be "average" or one part is going to be more over/under exposed than another, so you would use EC to try and fix that (or bracket, which just uses EC :)). EC just gives you control over the exposure since Av/Tv/P will always shoot for 0, eh?

Guess, as usual, I'm making a bigger deal out of something than it really is!

[RAitch]

No, I'm trying to get that out of your head.
When you shoot in Av mode... it's not shooting for 0 all the time. It adjusts to what you have dialed in on your meter.

Don't think of the meter as brightening or darkening your image.. STOP. That thinking is limited to evaluative mode.
If you shoot an evaluative shot and your meter is set to 0EC... your shot will be "average exposure." Therefore, if you increase the meter, it'll get brighter.

DON'T THINK THAT WAY THOUGH

By setting 0EC, you're telling the camera that you want the entire image (evaluative mode) to balance to mid grey (0 EC).

Using that same logic, if you use spot metering and aim at something specific, changing the meter setting will dictate to the camera where that subject (within the spot circle) will fall on the histogram.

In that case, setting your EC to +2 and metering with spot off the sky can produce a "normal" image. Setting to +2 in this case won't over expose the entire image.
Just like setting to -2EC and metering off of a shadow. The rest of the image will come out fine... not dark.

This is because when you lock exposure on something, it will adjust the settings so that object within the metering area will come out exposed to your Av meter setting.

If you don't lock exposure, the camera does the metering analysis at the time of the shot... and will base the exposure on whatever falls under the metering area at that time.

I hope you get this... it's a hard concept to break through at first and most people don't get it.

I tell you what. Grab some white and black paper. Set your meter to +2 and lock on the white paper and take a shot of something.
Then set to -2 and lock on the black paper... then take another shot.

They won't be exactly the same (in ideal environment they would be) but you'll see that the exposures are close.
Setting to -2 or +2 won't give you really over/under exposed images... unless you meter off of something out of that range.

[RAitch]

This is a terrible example image... but since Tyler's in bed and I'm home alone, I can't exactly go frolicking about outside.

Anyway, check out these 3 shots. I was trying to simulate fill flash power and metering off of the sky in my "studio".

Notice that the EC is set to +2 EC but the images look exposed "correctly?"
This is because I locked the meter when I was looking at the white wall in the light box (simulated sky).

The hardest part was locking the meter without having the flash impact it (since the flash wouldn't impact the sky). So, I had to lock the meter with the flash turned off, then held a half shutter while I turned the flash on, then took the shot with the flash.

The first shot is without flash... just lit with 2 lights bouncing off the light box walls.

The second shot shows the same shot but with normal flash (0FEC) and how much fill light that is adding.

The third shot is showing the same shot with less flash power (-1 2/3 FEC) which provides a nice fill light.


So, you see, I set +2 EC. Then I looked at the back wall (which is white) and pressed the * button to lock the exposure using the spot meter. This told the camera that I wanted the white walls to appear like +2EC (which on the 30D is solid white).

Since the white walls appear as the brightest white, the other objects in the image appear close to normal (since the walls are actually white).

I could have got the same thing if you set -1 EC and used spot meter on the black lens cap (as long as it filled the meter circle). That would have told the camera that the lens cap should appear around -1 on the histogram which is half way (or so) between mid grey and black.


Keep in mind that if you meter off of the sky (or distant objects) you are telling the camera where that object should fall on the histogram... but the pre-flash will probably not have an impact on the metering (because it's too far away).

If you meter off of your subject, you have to take into account the pre-flash lighting your subject. If you dial in 0EC and pre-flash off of somebody's face, the meter results will take into account for the flash and expose the face to mid grey WITH the flash. This is different than metering off of distant objects because flash won't impact them (like the sky).

[schmoelzel]

I'll just jump in here briefly and say that the shots I took that were referenced earlier in this thread were taken with a 550EX mounted on my 1D and the 550EX has a stofen omnibounce attached (I rarely remove it!). I always shoot in manual and as Richard mentioned, I did not have any FEC dialed in..........I am glad that Richard can explain all the technical jargon because for me it's just
1)turn on camera
2) turn on flash (set flash to hi-speed sync)
3)point flash directly at Julia
4) fire away and hope for the best!!

Good luck with all the shots and have fun at the beach!! (you know your kid will!!)

[RAitch]

The 550EX and 1D combination I'm sure is a little more intelligent than the 30D and 420EX.
I have to replace my 420... blah.

[RAitch]

Michael, you say you shoot in Manual mode... do you spot meter off of the background or just use evaluative to judge the exposure. Just curious.

[schmoelzel]

I tend to leave the metering set to evaluative (sometimes spot)......I do think that the 550EX/1D combo works much better for fill/flash than when I had the 420EX/1D thing......again, you can better explain the technical reasons but I think the two were developed at around the same time and thus were almost 'made' for each other. I think the newer 580EX works wonders with the newer bodies that have come out in the past 2 years.

[RAitch]

I guess I should save up for the 580 eh? Maybe do a little swap up.
I was going to keep my 420 for a slave... but don't think that's worth it. I might go with some radio triggers and some vivitars at some point.

I just bought a couple sheets of gels to put over the flash. One to simulate florescent and one to simulate daylight. It should come in handy so the flash doesn't LOOK like flash (white light).
I should be able to pick them up this weekend to give them a try.

[InspiredGraphix]

It really depends on the sort of stuff you are after, angle of the sun etc...

If you can, shoot with FEC +/- 1 stop or so. Expose and compose as you normally would and let the flash do its job. If it is too dark, zoom in on the subjects face, hit FEL, then compose and shoot.

Shoot manual to force the flash and shoot RAW. This way you don't have to worry about it too much if you are trying to just have a nice day at the beach.

If you find you are having trouble with the sun, put it behind the subject (see pic - excuse for the off-topic pic, but the only example i can find without digging). The light can sometimes be a little harsh, and with this pic we sort of wanted that, but you get the idea...

Rob

[whiskaz]

I'll just jump in here briefly and say that the shots I took that were referenced earlier in this thread were taken with a 550EX mounted on my 1D and the 550EX has a stofen omnibounce attached (I rarely remove it!). I always shoot in manual and as Richard mentioned, I did not have any FEC dialed in..........I am glad that Richard can explain all the technical jargon because for me it's just
1)turn on camera
2) turn on flash (set flash to hi-speed sync)
3)point flash directly at Julia
4) fire away and hope for the best!!

Good luck with all the shots and have fun at the beach!! (you know your kid will!!)

You make it sound so easy ;) Though I think once you get the general scene metered correctly in M you can just fire away. With flash, your subject should always expose correctly, but your background exposure may change some. On a sunny day at the beach I imagine you could meter once in M and fire away - unless the light changes drastically, you'll be good.

[RAitch]

Well, you can notice a difference if you shoot in the direction of the sun versus shooting with the sun... especially in the sky... but for the most part it should be within about 2/3.

[In2Photos]

You make it sound so easy ;) Though I think once you get the general scene metered correctly in M you can just fire away. With flash, your subject should always expose correctly, but your background exposure may change some. On a sunny day at the beach I imagine you could meter once in M and fire away - unless the light changes drastically, you'll be good.

This was my initial thought, but after shooting two days worth of shots it isn't that easy. My exposures would change drastically depending on which way I was shooting, i.e. toward or away from the sun, against the beach, against the water, houses in the background, etc. I just left it in Av, with -2/3 or -1 EC, and -1 to -1 2/3 FEC. My flash stopped working on day 1 about 30 shots in. I got it to start working later that day, but so much for being able to gain any knowledge from day one. Day two it worked fine but the wife was doing most of the shooting so that I would be in some shots. All in all we got a couple of good ones and a bunch of OK ones and some not so good ones. I will post some up when I get some time to PP, probably later today/tonight.

Thanks to all who provided some insight.

[RAitch]

-2/3 EC... I found my 30D needs around -1/3 or -2/3 to avoid blowouts as well.
I went to the zoo on the weekend and was thankful I shot everything in RAW. My "as shot" WB wasn't the best balance on ANY shot... and Auto rarely worked either. (I didn't CWB though)
Shooting in RAW allows you to underexpose a second shot and mask in some detail to get rid of blowouts. Very handy.

The flash stopped working? Did your forehead nudge it off the contacts? That happens to me every once in a while when I'm too lazy to tighten the flash lock. I either end up with zero flash... or blown out images (probably not detecting HSS - or firing full blast without TTL).

Looking forward to seeing some shots.

[In2Photos]

-2/3 EC... I found my 30D needs around -1/3 or -2/3 to avoid blowouts as well.
The flash stopped working? Did your forehead nudge it off the contacts? That happens to me every once in a while when I'm too lazy to tighten the flash lock. I either end up with zero flash... or blown out images (probably not detecting HSS - or firing full blast without TTL).

Looking forward to seeing some shots.

I wish it were that easy. The display was flashing everything except ETTL. I couldn't change the flash to HSS, M mode, no zooming, nothing. The display would just flash. I tried taking the batteries out, installing new ones, removing from the camera, let it sit for a while, etc. Several hours later when we got back to the house I pulled out the manual and looked at the troubleshooting section. The only thing close to the problem was if the WIDE panel was out, but it wasn't. I pulled it out and put it back in just in case, nope. I took the batteries out again and this time it started working. It has done this to me once before as well. I bought it used, but from a reputabe POTN member. I am thinking of trying out a new one and seeing if I can get it to do the same thing.

[In2Photos]

...Looking forward to seeing some shots.

Here you go Richard. After going trhough all the shots I wasn't overly thrilled with how they turned out, but not because of the flash. I was definately able to see the difference it made on the shots from ones that fired and ones that didn't. Here are two that I liked.

PP work, adjusted in ACR, some saturation, slight shadow/highlight, sharpening. Keep in mind she had a rash and they look horrible compressed. Maybe oversharpened but that isn't as important as whether or not I used the flash correctly.

89740

89741

[RAitch]

The fill certainly helped fill in those shadows there.
You have a nice exposure on the background... you didn't blow that out either.
Shot #2 almost looks like too much flash (a couple hotspots) but a way better result for sure compared to no flash.
DOF control is very nice... it surrounds your subject nicely to help them pop.

[tzphotos.com]

Shots look good, but I would say take it easy on the sharpening. You can see a halo around the subjects.

Nice work.

[In2Photos]

Thanks Rich and Tom. I was trying some different settings with sharpening that looked good until I used the framer and compressed them. I should have just stuck with my usual method.