Do pros frown on flash use at sporting events?

[sf_1857]

I was talking with a local pro - stringer for small newspaper - and he said he'll often times use off-camera flash indoors for HS sports since his lens is not fast enough (f5.6).

He's been asked by game officials at times to stop, though he says UIL rules do not prohibit.

As a pro, shooting at the HS level, do you frown on photogs using a flash, whether indoors or outdoors in the evening?

[Rhinotherunt]

I know the NBA allows strobes and I have seen college basketball images taken with strobes. The game official can stop him if they feel it is endangering the players. If he is a pro and getting paid he should justify buying faster glass. Fast primes are not too expensive under 100mm.

[Issac Brock]

My two cents: He should show more respect towards the players. If the official is saying that its bothersome, then get some less obstructive lighting. It would be really selfish to just hide behind the fact that it isn't in the rulebook and annoy all of the players.

[ssim]

There is a difference in literally knocking someone over with the full output of a flash to that with just enough fill flash to get the job done. Now a person working for a newspaper should know the difference. There is also a distinct difference between it being a nuisance as opposed to endangering the players. I would certainly stop if I was asked. If I knew that I was going to be covering events in lighting such as this I would make sure that the newspaper I worked for invested in the right kind of glass to allow me to shoot with available light.

Most professionals trying to do a sporting event the right way will preinstall strobes into the buidling before the game and then work with remote releases. A small newspaper may not have the equipment to do this. I live in a mid sized city (85K) and the newspaper here has them permanently installed in the hockey arena for the full season.

[brivett]

I would never use flash for indoor sports. It's inconsiderate.

Buy real glass

[transcend]

My two cents: He should show more respect towards the players. If the official is saying that its bothersome, then get some less obstructive lighting. It would be really selfish to just hide behind the fact that it isn't in the rulebook and annoy all of the players.

Only 3/4 of the time officials have absolutely no idea what they are taking about. If an athlete is seeing the flash instead of the ball, their line etc....they have way bigger problems then a strobe going off.

For what it's worth, I cover Cycling professionally. I ALWAYS use fill flash as the light is usually behind a rider, too harsh over head, or they are in the woods. I also compete on a professional level.

I have never once had an issue with a photogs flash, although I am aware of them going off around me. I kwow that if i am blinded by a flash, i was having way more issues than that going on because you just don't realize they are there 99% of the time. Fans, officials, course marshalls and "photographers" jumping out in front of me and being on course are much more of a nuissance.

I have had officials and course marshals tell me I am blinding riders, it just isn't the case. In fact in training, i will ask riders if i think it may be worrisome. The only comments i get are riders thanking me for lighting up that wood section for them (jokingly).

Ans as for the comment about it being inconsiderate and to get real glass...come cover a hockey game or cycling event with your 2.8 glass and then you tell me who is right. Your story will change real quickly if you need to sell cover shots to a mag and ytou are shooting at 1600 iso and still only getting an 80th.

3 flashes, 1 80th of a second, in the deep dark woods. 2.8 stopped down to 5.6 for DOF. Not possible without remotes.

http://www.transcendmagazine.com/gallery/albums/mtsnow06/mtsnow06_T2A1533.sized.jpg

[sf_1857]

Thanks for the input.

I would lean toward not using flash if possible but having the option for those small school dark gyms, dark woods, etc where it seems necessary.

[primoz]

It depends on sport. For cycling (mtb or road) I always use flash just as Transcend said. To be honest I don't know any colleague who doesn't. For other sports I try to stay away from flash as much as possible, even though I wouldn't mind few strobes for some basketball or handball sometimes :)
Usually flash doesn't really bother athletes (I was in top level sport for quite some time myself too so I actually know this). They never (or at least almost never) look straight at you, and once you are concentrated on this what you are doing, you hardly notice what's happening around you. If they do, they should concentrate on their sport better anyway :twisted:

[frenchdub]

Hi there

As others have posted most indoor sports strobes are set up in the roof and fired from above....this is usual practice on many indoor sports from basketball to atheltics by the major news and sports agencies and mags....these are fired by radio control as a studio flash...these in no way bother the players...

However....Flashes popped into an athletes face on camera are usually forbidden during the action faze...as they can easily blind the guy momentarily and impede the game.... but they are allowed for jubo stuff...

I have indeed shot basket ball with on camera flash but shots are usually not as good as stuff shot at 500th using 1600 ISO..

It often boils down to the rules of whatever federation governs your shooting...

regards
Gareth

[LBaldwin]

Yes Strobes are used for indoor sports all the time. The exception is gymnastics and some volleyball. There is of course a huge diff in strobes vs flash. Strobes are remote fired and mounted in the rafters or catwalks. A flash is something strapped to your camera.

Many hockey and basketball games have strobes already mounted inplace and only the team photogs and press have access via radio slaves. Anything would interfere with the game.

Les

[brivett]

What is very clear here is that there is a huge difference in what is accepted around the world.

If you went to a basketball match or ice hockey game in the UK with a flash you'd likely be ejected. I've not seen strobes mounted in the ceiling in the UK though I have in USA / canada.

Baz

[DocFrankenstein]

I can attest to not being bothered by the flash when competing. The only time I'd react to it would be on the starting block when swimming. You can make a false start because of the flash instead of the buzzer.

[transcend]

I can attest to not being bothered by the flash when competing. The only time I'd react to it would be on the starting block when swimming. You can make a false start because of the flash instead of the buzzer.

Yup, swimming is much like hockey and basketball however, and most serious arena/pool photogs would have strobes up in the rafters.

[dave13]

I would never use flash for indoor sports. It's inconsiderate.

Buy real glass

Don't judge too quickly. Even at f/2.8 and ISO 3200 some gyms are still too dark.

And this is based off my use of the 70-200L and MarkII at more basketball games than I care to count.

[liza]

Don't judge too quickly. Even at f/2.8 and ISO 3200 some gyms are still too dark.

And this is based off my use of the 70-200L and MarkII at more basketball games than I care to count.

No, he's right. If you're going to shoot gym sports, use fast primes. IHSA forbids the use of flash at our high school sporting events, and the local university prohibits it as well. I just don't do it as a courtesy to the players on the off chance that it might distract them. And I like to follow the rules, so I'm welcome to come back next time. :)

[Borderfox]

I cover a lot of Equestrian sport (most indoors in the winter) and never use flash, I got a 50mm f1.8 and a 85mm f1.8 to do the job. As said above buy faster glass to do the job

[transcend]

I cover a lot of Equestrian sport (most indoors in the winter) and never use flash, I got a 50mm f1.8 and a 85mm f1.8 to do the job. As said above buy faster glass to do the job

Oh i see, so a backlit scene, say a dark horse coming directly at you with lights behind it, can be perfectly exposed simply with faster glass? This will keep both the subject and BG in focus?

Telling people to simply get faster glass is being ignorant. It isn't a be all and end all solution by any means. In many situations it simply will not work.

Notice many olympic events are shot heavily with remote cameras and flashes. The guys who shoot these events have at their disposal any equipment they could ever need (for the most part). Fill flash is essential in many situations.

Not trying to be argumentative, but too many people keep telling others to simply "get faster glass", that isn't always an option.

[dave13]

Oh i see, so a backlit scene, say a dark horse coming directly at you with lights behind it, can be perfectly exposed simply with faster glass? This will keep both the subject and BG in focus?

Telling people to simply get faster glass is being ignorant. It isn't a be all and end all solution by any means. In many situations it simply will not work.

Notice many olympic events are shot heavily with remote cameras and flashes. The guys who shoot these events have at their disposal any equipment they could ever need (for the most part). Fill flash is essential in many situations.

Not trying to be argumentative, but too many people keep telling others to simply "get faster glass", that isn't always an option.

Amen!

[liza]

The pros use strobes which are mounted well above the action. That's a lot different than some of these guys I see on the sidelines popping off a 580EX in the players faces. And while using a flash might be warranted in some situations, my point is that there are situations in which it's either a.) prohibited and/or b.) not appreciated. If that's the case, you have to adjust.

And there's no way I'd use a flash at an equestrian event. Horses don't like it.

[dave13]

I see, so the difference between the "pros" as you like to put it and I and everyone else at the photographic company I work at is the stobe/flash difference?

Lady, I hate to be argumentive , but I'm beginning to think you only have half a clue as to what you're talking about. There is no 100% solution.

I earn 100% of my income from photography. The company I work for has contracts with over 15 high schools and adding more almost weekly. We cover every event possible for these schools, provide all the images for their yearbooks. We are their OFFICIAL photographers.

So if we need to use a 580 or a 550 for that matter for fill at indoor/night events or for some of these schools that includes equestrian events, we're not pro's? I guess that the 300 f/2.8's , the 200 f/1.8, the many 70-200 f/2.8's we have or even the 85 f/1.2 are all just amateur lenses? (in reference to all the "get better glass" comments)

The schools and officials here let us use flash ( this goes for the guys at the newspapers too) because they know we are there to do a job. Many of these schools did not consider photography into their lighting equation when building their gyms and stadiums. So yes, we have to improvise, we have to use fill. Shooting wide open at ISO 3200 is in several instances still too dark. Some of us aren't so lucky as to be able to rig up our own lights in the rafters.

How many photos here on this forum alone have comments for them with some form of reply saying " some fill would have helped" Why then can't the same apply to sports? The truth is that sometimes it IS needed. The officials, players and coaches here know it and they also want the best images as well.

On a sidenote, when I took some pictures of my father in laws horse, she didn't complain one bit about flash, she just wanted me to make sure I shot her good side.

[liza]

There is no need to be rude and argumentative. You apparently have had different experiences in your area. I shoot all sports for the yearbook, as well as for the newspaper, and to sell commercially to parents. I'm OUR official photographer. I do know what I'm talking about and for you to make a statement like that is totally uncalled for. It's all right to have a difference in opinion, but don't bash others when expressing it. I've reported you to the mods. We like to get along on this forum, unlike some of the other ones out there.

[transcend]

The pros use strobes which are mounted well above the action.

If you mean the guys that work for the NBA and NHL or cover these events for the AP/Reuters/SI, then you are correct. Besides that, you'd be out of line saying that someone using flash is not a "pro".

I don't know of a single High School or even college gym in the area that will allow anyone to setup strobes and packs in the rafters unless the final four or something is in town. It simply doesn't happen.

Usually you have to lease the space from the venue, and then use one of their unionised electricians and inspectors to get everything setup for liability reasons. It isn't simple a matter of climbing up into the rafters and slinging some stuff from the beams. It's $10 000 + in lights alone.

[Belmondo]

The rules of the venue dictate whether or not we'll be allowed to use flash. When appropriate (and legal), use flash.

In the meantime, stay on topic, stop personal attacks, and don't argue about it.

Thanks,

[brivett]

In the UK it's the sports governing bodies and the teams that often say a very big NO to flash... the venues don't have any relevance.

The year book thang doesn't exist here.... but then being outside of Northern America we're not in the world series either !

C'mon guys... let's all get along and understand that what is accepted in one arena, is not accepted in another... and also understand that the amatuer market buys more $$$ worth of L glass than the pros... it's a question of numbers.

Personally... I think flash lit sports shots look plastic and naff.... but that's just a personal view...

Baz

[HammerCope]

As to ther lady about light equestrian events ( Rodeo, barrelraces, roping ect). I've been doing it for 12years . The only thing in most arena in or outdoors that makes it possable is a flash or strobe. I use a camera mounted Norman 400B. As for spooking the animals thats just poor training if your horse cant take the flash.The only time I would not take the pic with a flash is if the rider looks to be uncomforable on the horse or if it acts wierd to start with. You have watch for these things or your going to cause a train wreck. I shoot from inside the arena so I'm very up close and personal with what is going on not all the way at the other end of the arena. So if somthing goes wrong I could be injured as well.

[fivefish]

I NEVER use flash... Afraid it might spook the horse... I take photos of kids riding on horses and ponies. These horses could buck at the sign of anything out of the ordinary, or when they get startled or surprised. (Even the sound of a shutter click can sometimes make a horse jumpy...)

I never ever ever want the kid to fall off a horse because of me or my flash.

If possible, I show the horses the camera before the event so they'll get comfortable and not be threatened by it.

[MHP]

Only 3/4 of the time officials have absolutely no idea what they are taking about. If an athlete is seeing the flash instead of the ball, their line etc....they have way bigger problems then a strobe going off.

For what it's worth, I cover Cycling professionally. I ALWAYS use fill flash as the light is usually behind a rider, too harsh over head, or they are in the woods. I also compete on a professional level.

I have never once had an issue with a photogs flash, although I am aware of them going off around me. I kwow that if i am blinded by a flash, i was having way more issues than that going on because you just don't realize they are there 99% of the time. Fans, officials, course marshalls and "photographers" jumping out in front of me and being on course are much more of a nuissance.

I have had officials and course marshals tell me I am blinding riders, it just isn't the case. In fact in training, i will ask riders if i think it may be worrisome. The only comments i get are riders thanking me for lighting up that wood section for them (jokingly).

Ans as for the comment about it being inconsiderate and to get real glass...come cover a hockey game or cycling event with your 2.8 glass and then you tell me who is right. Your story will change real quickly if you need to sell cover shots to a mag and ytou are shooting at 1600 iso and still only getting an 80th.

3 flashes, 1 80th of a second, in the deep dark woods. 2.8 stopped down to 5.6 for DOF. Not possible without remotes.

http://www.transcendmagazine.com/gallery/albums/mtsnow06/mtsnow06_T2A1533.sized.jpg


AWESOME IMAGE !!!:lol: :lol:

[kiss_me_now9]

As to ther lady about light equestrian events ( Rodeo, barrelraces, roping ect). I've been doing it for 12years . The only thing in most arena in or outdoors that makes it possable is a flash or strobe. I use a camera mounted Norman 400B. As for spooking the animals thats just poor training if your horse cant take the flash.The only time I would not take the pic with a flash is if the rider looks to be uncomforable on the horse or if it acts wierd to start with. You have watch for these things or your going to cause a train wreck. I shoot from inside the arena so I'm very up close and personal with what is going on not all the way at the other end of the arena. So if somthing goes wrong I could be injured as well.

Sorry, gotta disagree with your first point there. Would never use a flash around horses in a competition arena - They're highly strung enough anyway, and if it's their first show, the atmosphere can really get to them. All horses are different, plus you can't accuratly predict what'll happen with them... Maybe that's just the show jumping/showing field though. And if they're playing up, I tend to put my camera away and sit quietly... Been on a horse thats mucking around too many times! Anyway, back to the point.

Shouldn't the players be focused in on their game enough to not notice a flash? How about a balance between the two - A small flash and a better lens? Anywhos... back to my hole! :)

[mspringfield]

Oh i see, so a backlit scene, say a dark horse coming directly at you with lights behind it, can be perfectly exposed simply with faster glass? This will keep both the subject and BG in focus?



As a matter of fact it can. The following picture was taken with a 200 1.8 in an open sided covered arena at about 2:00 in the afternoon.

http://www.pbase.com/mspringfield/image/61022628.jpg

Not only is a flash inconsiderate of the competitors it can sometimes be life threatening. For example in cheerleading or in gymnastics a flash going off in the middle of a tumbling run or on a balance beam routine can completely disorient a competitor causing them to miss a landing lead to serious injury or worse. As a photographer we must be able to get the shot without causing a risk to life and limb. Using the wrong equipment is nothing less than irresponsible, if a photographer doesn't have or cannot afford what is needed in order to do the job then he/she should turn down the job. This is something that I feel very strongly about.

Michael

[transcend]

Sorry that background (and the rider) are both over exposed and washed out. That shot would never sell to any of my clients.

If gymnasts or cheerleaders are falling because they see a flash, they shouldn't have been out there in the first place because they clearly were not concentrating on what they were doing.

I have been an athlete all my life, including scholarship throughout university and as a professional cyclist after that. Both events were heavily photographed with flashes, sometimes in deep dark woods. It never once bothered me, not anyone else i have competed with.

[transcend]

AWESOME IMAGE !!!:lol: :lol:

Thanks, just noticed your post. That image is a cover candidate hopefully for 2007.

[LBaldwin]

Hi Gang,

The short answer is YES pros do use flash and strobe at both HS and NCAA games. I took the liberty to look it up. And generally it says in the RULES that flash is allowed but can be overridden by the local officials from the game or school here are some excerpts in a quick search...

From womens NCAA rules
Significant Editorial Changes
Strobe Lights (Rule 1-4.5, page 14 – The word “overhead,” will be removed from the language. Rationale: Because flash photography is allowed, there is no need to restrict the location of strobe lights.

From The FloridaHigh School Athletics Assoc FHSAA
8. Electronic flash equipment may be used by photographers at FHSAA State Series contests provided the use of such equipment does not interfere with the conduct of the competition. The host school principal, contest manager and/or the officials assigned to work the contest will have the authority to require photographers to cease using electronic flash equipment if it is determined that it interferes with the conduct of the competition. Photographers should be granted reasonable access to the out-of-bounds areas of the court or field in all sports as long as their presence does not interfere with the contest and does not endanger either themselves, the student-athletes or the officials working the contest. The host school principal, contest manager and/or the officials assigned to work an FHSAA State Series contest will have the authority to require the repositioning of photographers if they believe their placement may threaten the safety of the participants or interfere with the conduct of the competition.

And From Ohio
The Ohio High School Athletic Association develops the regulations for media coverage of all OHSAA
8.6) Electronic Lighting Regulations
a.) These regulations apply to both regular season and OHSAA tournament contests.
b.) These regulations shall be administered by contest managers (hereinafter referred to as “contest managers”) for regular season or OHSAA tournament contests prior to the state tournament or the OHSAA officeor designated contest or media managers (hereinafter referred to as “the OHSAA”) for state tournaments.
c.) Authorized news media representatives, who have been approved for credentials by contest managers or the OHSAA, shall be permitted to use electronic lighting equipment throughout the course of a given activity in all sports except gymnastics, diving and volleyball. Such electronic lighting can be: strobe lights mounted
to fixed positions and/or electronic attachments (flash) mounted to a camera.
c1.) Requests to use strobe lights mounted to fixed positions shall be made well in advance of the contest.c2.) Requests to use strobe lights mounted to fixed positions shall be honored:c2.1) as facility space permits c2.2) on a priority system based on:
c2.21) an official photographer so designated by the OHSAA (OHSAA tournament contests only) c2.22) newspapers that cover their hometown competing teams (daily newspapers with larger circulations, followed by weekly newspapers)
c2.23) newspapers that cover the site of the host facility (daily newspapers with larger circulations, followed by weekly newspapers)
c2.24) media which is national, regional or statewide (wire services) in scope
c2.25) all other media (internet sites, specialty publications, etc.)
d.) Photographers approved to use strobe lights mounted to fixed positions shall ensure contest managers or the OHSAA that such lights are mounted and secured safely.
d1.) To ensure safety, photographers shall meet with contest managers or the OHSAA no less than 45minutes before game time.
d2.) As a courtesy, contest managers or the OHSAA shall inform participating coaches and contest officials that photographers have been approved to use strobe lights in fixed positions.
d3.) Photographers are expected to use good judgement when placing strobe lights in fixed position so that such lights do not interfere with a participant’s execution of a play. In the sport of basketball, for
example, strobe lights shall not be mounted directly behind a basket so as not to interfere with a player’s direct line of sight to the basket.
e.) In the sport of basketball, photographers are prohibited to position themselves along the baseline with in the lane area of the court.
e1.) The first violation of this policy shall result in a warning from contest managers or the OHSAA, and the second violation of this policy shall result in the removal of the photographer from the contest facility
by contest managers or the OHSAA.
e2.) Photographers may position themselves along the baseline outside the lane area of the court and are permitted to use electronic attachments (flash) mounted to a camera as specified under regulation 8.6 c.) above. e3.) The use of remote-operated cameras behind a basket is permitted so long as the guidelines listed
under 8.6 c.) above are followed. f.) These policies shall apply to all photographers approved for credentials, including those representing the
participating schools.

[mspringfield]

Sorry that background (and the rider) are both over exposed and washed out. That shot would never sell to any of my clients.

Actually the shot looks over exposed because for some reason the pbase linked photos have been looking washed out lately (just haven't had a chance to figure out why). Here's what it really looks like. I have been shooting horses for a number of years and have seen horses spooked when a flash goes off close by.

http://www.pbase.com/mspringfield/image/61022628



If gymnasts or cheerleaders are falling because they see a flash, they shouldn't have been out there in the first place because they clearly were not concentrating on what they were doing.

It has nothing to do with concentration. Try telling that to a parent who's kid is being carted off to the hospital because a flash went off in their face and they were no longer able to see the floor and landed wrong. Hope you have very good insurance because that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

While I have done some things that risk my own safety to get a shot I have never endangered a competitor at a sporting event. Sorry but endangering a competitor is not only irrisponsible photography it is unprofessional. There is a reason that the USAG, and every other gymnastics organization as well as most venues have a "no flash photography" rule. Its one thing to have strobes in the ceiling it is something completely different having a high powered flash mounted on a camera going off in front of a competitor. Getting a photo should never be more important than the safety of others.

While we have agreed on other issues don't think we are going to agree on this one. :cool:
Michael

[kkissofgold]

All I can say on this is as a competitor with horses I would never use a flash. It isn't a matter of training! I have a horse (sort-of-on-loan) whom has a fantastic temperament but she has always flinched at the flash! We have several horses out competing whom are rescues and a flash could set them back. As a temperamental animal anyway, shoule we keep these fantastic athletes at home happy hacking? Some get excited and how do you calm them down if they aren't allowed out and about.
Anyway, as a competitor I dislike flashes as I find it distracting, and yes my mind is 100% on my horse and what I'm doing but I have to be aware of things round about me, what if a dog gets loose? etc. Things happen that we have no control over!

[Crashoran]

From the person before, if your newspaper can afford a couple of 300 2.8's, 200 1.8, and 70-200's, then you can definately afford to setup a strobe system to get the job done. it all comes down to how much work you are willing to do.

Contact Paul Alesse at http://www.playballphotos.com/ and he will tell you he sets up his strobes at each event he does.

[sf_1857]

Well I'm glad we got this cleared up! :)

But really, I appreciate the lively discussion.

I'll be shooting mostly outdoors with football (American) season coming so it won't be an issue as much. However, I'll shoot some evening games.

When I go indoors, I'll start by watching other photogs to see how it's being done. That'll give a good indicator as to what's acceptable.

Thanks.