How do you give a helpfull Critique?

[Croasdail]

Ok, first disclaimer, I am not saying my stuff doesn't stink.... I know I have loads to learn, so please don't take this the wrong way. If anything, I am wishing I had more constructive critique going on with my images.

With that out of the way... as I cruise the forums here, I see lots of lonely threads where some poor person has put their pride and joy up for comment, only to have the image slip to page two with hardly a friendly "nice photo" attached to it. I feel really sorry for them, so I try to post something positive in there... I know how it feels to have a post that has had a few hundred views with not much feedback. But then I run across these threads where the poster has a $3-4k camera body, a handfull of L lenses, and the images might as well have been shot with a department store P/S. I saw one of these tonight, and just stared at the thread. The poster had to have spent 10K on camera equipment, and the shots were very very ordinary. I wanted to scream into at the computer... before you go buy another L... buy a book, read the forum, practice with what you have... because obviously spending money with Canon isn't doing ya much good. I know that sounds harsh... and I would never ever say that to anyone, but there has to be a nice way to point these people in the right direction. I would love to see more helpfull discourse on these boards not only about what is done right... but what could have been done better. But I really would like to see the number of lonely threads reduced. If you look at something... and go "ehhhh", there has to be a nice way to tell the poster that in a constructive way.

Again, I am not saying my stuff doesn't need help... I know it does... and I expect you all to say so. The only condition to hammering my photos is if you tell me what I did wrong... also tell me how to do it right next time.

[PhotoJourno]

Nice comments, Mark.

[PhotoJourno]

Seriously though, I somewhat agree with you. Critique of a photograph is more than just a comment, whether artificially positive or positively negative. I personally break it down to different categories:

- First, Do I like the photo? If yes Nice, Great looking, good, I like it.
- Second, if it had been me behind that shot. Would I have done anything differently?
- Third, does any of my experience allow me to suggest any changes, or modifications that may enhance or improve the quality of the posted photos? If so, I comment on it.
- Fourth. always encourage to continue to take photographs and improve technique.
- Last, and Most Important: I keep strictly negative thoughts to myself. The toughest critic of any photo is the author him/herself.

Why did I come up with my own way of doing this?... Because it is exactly what I would expect of others.

When someone drops me the usual "nice pic". I appreciate it. For those who can actually tell me how I can learn from the post, I am very grateful as well. I dont want to turn my posted photos into philosophic discussions of light and Optics, but rather an informal bad ok nice rating, with the occasional try this or that for next time.

Just my thoughts here...

[Carzee]

I think this forum and C & C here is so much more real than the real world when it comes to making comments.

Some semi-comatose comments /proceedings I see at club photo contests.

Most all judges pic up the photo and look at the pic and open with a disclaimer ("Look, please understand this is only my opinion...." YMMV)

Then they explain to the audience -in brief- what the format is and what the "story" is ("This is a rather flatly printed colour photo of a big bear...") objective factoids. The focal point blah blah the focus and DOF blah blah and the crop blah blah.

They could stereotype it as "a photo of record", "a grab shot" of some action or freaky incident/moment. Or it could be an ultra seriously worked up "skillfully crafted image".

Then its time for subjective reactions and suggestions to improve aspects.

Summation is also carefully worded... like "this one is just out-classed by other photos here today..." and seldom do you hear gushing compliments... and never "Holy ASA Batman, I'm totally blown away by this --its a rare thing when....!!!!"

[PhotosGuy]

So many posts each day... so little time...

If I like something, or just the effort that went into it, I'll give it a "Nice shot" bump. If I hate it, I'll usually just say nothing as I figure that, if they wanted a Critique, they'd put the shot there.

As to, "as I cruise the forums here, I see lots of lonely threads where some poor person has put their pride and joy up for comment, only to have the image slip to page two with hardly a friendly "nice photo" attached to it.", here's a few prior threads on the subject.


Long-time members: WARNING!!! COPYRIGHT!!! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32376)

Nude Dave Matthews has sex with animals! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43716)

[Mike R]

I have only posted a few images in Critiques and have to say that most of the comments I received were honest and helpful. I do not want to be told "Nice shot" or some form of "Poor shot" without a reason, Is it the composition,lighting,exposure or something else you like or do not like.

[Jamie Holladay]

To answer your question:
Here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1690086&postcount=2) is a critique I did of some nice work (of course that is the bad part - it is nice work). I first said it was a good set. Pointed out the weaknesses and then ened positive. Of course I am no exepert by no stretch of the imagination, this set just happened to be something that I had done before and was able to offer some insite to because of thing I had missed in my work.
There was another post in "Transportation" that I did not comment on because I did not know how to say "Cars do not belong on Grass between trees in a park, They belong in a parking lot or on the street". Without sounding like a real pr!ck. So what is answer to you question.
Is the answer to "strap rebar to to the bottom of your XT for balance in the place of a grip". Why no. But I don't gett jacked about comments like that. but some people do. So you have to find the happy medium. For me poor the milk on the table. If I ask you how a photo is and it is SH!T. Then tell me so, BUT tell me why and how to make it better.
I wished when I asked for comments that I would get comments. Both postive and negative (with in context).
Oh I think I got on a rant sorry.

[Az2Africa]

I understand what you mean about mediocre shots by people with zillion dollar gear getting undue praise while a very good shot by someone less known here gets ignored.Makes you wonder if there is a secret password or hand shake sometimes. But it's usually just a group within the group cheering eachother. My experience here has always been very positive though. I have recieved both praise and critques and they have always been well thought out and helpful. I'll try to be more help in the future as well. Thanks for the reminder.

[EOS_JD]

Give a poitive for every negaitive if you cannot do this, for every negative comment provide a way to improve and help the poster understand what you see is wrong with the shot.

[Spearin]

I think that since the scale of the community is so large, and in true proportion of the photography world, most of the users are beginners and amateurs. There are a few experts in the respective fields, who do an excellent job of not just posting inspiring photos, but also offering very valuable advice and critiques.

For every shot that I post here, I would love to have a critique. Just positive comments are nice, but it is much more valuable if anyone has any opinion on how to improve my photos. Sometimes I may like a photo for whatever reason, but other people might not. I won't know how to get vast appeal unless I hear straight from the source how to gain that appeal and figure out what is missing.

I sometimes try to offer a good critique. But that is only if I perceive the photographer as being able to handle it. Some people don't want their shots critiqued - just seen. So I try to look for who wants or could use it the most.

Even negative comments are for a positive purpose... to improve the photographer and their images.

However, the main problem is people not necessarily understanding what I'm talking about. Not everyone has formal education or training in photography, so might not fully understand the importance of tonal range in a black and white image or contrast or line or even the rule of thirds! But again, that is due to the nature of the community. POTN is massive and nearly everyone is looking to get better with their photography, so there will obviously be plenty of beginners.

I have actually been very tempted to initiate a community aimed towards photography students, advanced amateurs, and professionals. It would offer an environment where those aspiring to the professional world of photography (i.e. students) could interact with each other and those who have been in their place and actually made it into a career. You could post a photo and get a good solid critique. You could open someone's post and not see a P&S shot of their girlfriend. It would be a 'solid' image - one made by someone who already understands. I'm just not sure at how well received a community such as this would be, and whether it would become flooded by lots of beginners wondering what the hell ISO is.

[kmb]

The poster had to have spent 10K on camera equipment, and the shots were very very ordinary.

As I've understood it, it's a cultural thing. In some, um, parts of the world it is appropriate to be proud of what you own rather than what you've created or achieved per se. Or what you own is thought to be the only true measure of what you've achieved. I personally don't understand it, but then, there's a lot of things I don't understand. I sure hope I get seen as a photographer, not as a photographic equipment owner (and I really try hard to justify my investments to myself, which I guess is a bit silly).

[Croasdail]

Kalle, having grown up in part of my country that values "stuff" a whole lot, I totally understand your comments and perceptions. I try to be real open minded though. It does seem we have our fair share of collectors though.

Andrew...... I am with ya. Of course Sportsshooter does have a very liberal entry criteria, I am not really sure how much critiquing goes on. But it would be nice to have a site that really was for educational purposes rather then just sharing.

Ed.... I completely agree with you...and I try to do that. But then there is the shot that is just so ordinary it is hard to know where to start. It would be nice to be able to have a dialog with the photographer and ask them exactly what is it they were trying to capture. Sometimes their equipment is a real valid reason for a poor shot - and it is completely fair game to recommend alternative hardware. But other times, you will see a shot of someones kid that really is totally ordinary - and like Andrew said - some members really don't take well to friendly advice.

I guess it would almost be nice to have a little switch like the editing allowed that says critique allowed, so you knew who did and didn't want other peoples opinions or help.

[Mike R]

When posting an image, people should expect a critique, Not to sound cruel but if you do not want a critique, or have a desire to improve, why are you posting images? Every one of us has taken shots that need help. Sure, it may hurt the posters feelings when there is nothing good to say about an image, but if the critique is honest and not in a sarcastic or mean tone then it should be accepted, as I said before, when I post an image in the critique section I expect to learn something.Mark may be on the right track maybe we need to say "Critique allowed" Then we can just ignore the ones who don't want to improve their craft.

[PhotosGuy]

No matter what you post, "Out of 65,000 members, some will love it, some will hate it, & the others probably will just click & move on." OTOH, all <bumps> of whatever nature, are gratefully received by me! :D

[elTwitcho]

Excellent post Mark, I (and I'm sure alot of other people) agree with you completely, but I think it's the nature of the community here regarding priorities. More on that in a moment...


With that out of the way... as I cruise the forums here, I see lots of lonely threads where some poor person has put their pride and joy up for comment, only to have the image slip to page two with hardly a friendly "nice photo" attached to it. I feel really sorry for them, so I try to post something positive in there... I know how it feels to have a post that has had a few hundred views with not much feedback.

When I'm posting photos more actively I try and do the same. I wish more people would as well. I don't think people should be unecessarily nice, but at the same time a little bit of encouragement and friendly advice is a nice thing to do. It's kind of a fine line as well, you should make a point of saying something nice, and then maybe point out the biggest flaw in the photo and leave the rest for another time if it isn't in critique.

Saying "nice photo. however, the composition is pretty bad. You have alot of negative space making it feel a bit awkward. The person's head is slightly cut off by the frame which is best avoided. It looks like you focussed on the grass too. The contrast is pretty low and i don't like the colour cast. The background is distracting. other than that, it's pretty good" I would imagine can be pretty crushing for a new photographer. However, like you said, no comment at all can probably be equally disapointing.

And as for the ten thousand dollar snapshots, there's alot of people on this forum who are into that thing. Alot of people got cameras to take pictures of their kids, and that's what they do. Then they got L lenses because they heard they were the best for sharpness and bokeh. So their primary focus (fogive the pun, hah) is shots of their kids, with great sharpness and bokeh, it's what they like, and if that's their thing, well good on them I suppose. There's alot of people into that sort of thing, so they see each other's photos, like them because it strives to achieve the same things they want in their shots, so it becomes a self reinforcing community of people doing what you described. It's neither good nor bad, it just is what it is. If you're going to do something a bit more experimental, well, you tend to get ignored by the larger contingent of kid shooters simply because of conflicting interests.

[kmb]

Saying "nice photo. however, the composition is pretty bad. You have alot of negative space making it feel a bit awkward. The person's head is slightly cut off by the frame which is best avoided. It looks like you focussed on the grass too. The contrast is pretty low and i don't like the colour cast. The background is distracting. other than that, it's pretty good" I would imagine can be pretty crushing for a new photographer. However, like you said, no comment at all can probably be equally disapointing.
I've thought about how to guide beginners without crushing them but still giving valuable advice. Here are a few thoughts that I think are worthwhile to use just as to make sure you won't make people unhappy (of course, if you don't care about that, then that's another thing):
- Don't use negative words. For instance, in your example, this might be a better choice of wording: "nice photo. however, the composition could be improved".
- Use "I think". Then it's your opinion (which the photo poster will hopefully think about) rather than some inherent truth about the photo being bad. I guess this might be helpful if the photo poster is a sensitive person or if the photo has a special meaning to him/her.
- Start with something positive.

[Jamie Holladay]

I guess it would almost be nice to have a little switch like the editing allowed that says critique allowed, so you knew who did and didn't want other peoples opinions or help.

That is not a bad idea in itself. If in the post_bit it allowed the user to choose:
1. Friendly Critique
2. Moderate Critique
3. Fromal Critique

This would allow viewer to know to what "degree" of a critique the poster could "handle" or was requesting. It actually could be handled as will in the post Icons (but not as effectively) by adding images to the Post Icon file so that the OP could choose one when he/she posted (as i did the thumbs up).

[Woolburr]

A true critique of anything should be an honest appraisal, that not only points out the flaws, but also makes note of the strengths of a given piece of work. A professional welcomes critiques on all levels, knowing full well that the information gleened from an appraisal can help them mold their craft to appeal to their target audience. A professional is also able to accept that not everyone on the face of the planet is going to agree with their artistic vision. Unfortunately, many amateurs and "self-proclaimed" professionals view a critique as an assault on their vision and an insult to their skills, completely ignoring that the whole purpose of a critique is to improve your craft. If you don't want people to say what they really think, Do NOT post in the critique section or put C&C welcome on your post. Learning to understand and accept the points made in a critique is a key element to the learning process.

When critiquing the work of anyone, the reviewer needs to remember that photography is an artform, and as art...their interpretation is purely subjective and should remain impersonal (by this, I mean your personal feelings about the artist shouldn't enter into the evaluation of the work...I think we all know that good art can touch you on a personal level). Both parties involved in a critique need to remember that each appraisal is only the opinion of a single person and as such, it is not necessarily the gospel. As a reviewer, I might find your work extremely appealing and laud you with praise after praise. Does that mean you have created a masterpiece? No, it just means I like your work on that particular piece. By the same token, if I were be deeply disturbed by your image and found flaw after flaw with it, it does not mean that your image is garbage, it just means that I don't much care for it.

We need to bear in mind that a critique should be an informed opinion, while also knowing that there are no "gods" of photography in residence on this forum or any other forum. Having posted "nice picture" 5,000 times to the "Bird Forum" or the "Urban Forum" or any other venue does not qualify that person as anything more than a frequent poster, especially when that same individual has never posted a single example of their own work. Similarly, the person that posts edit after edit of other's work on the site, and yet posts the bold "No Edits Allowed" in their personal signature can hardly be taken all that seriously. As Mark pointed out in the original post, having a million dollars worth of gear doesn't qualify you as an expert either.

So, what then makes for a helpful critique? Four key points. Reinforce the positive. Abstain from purely subjective comments. Explain the negative. Include a potential solution.

An example of a positive critique point would be something like, "you really nailed the color saturation" or "using the trees to frame the subject is visually appealing". This tells the shooter that their effort has not been a total failure and points out perceived strengths in the image.

Subjective statements like "Your picture does nothing for me!", "That sucks!" or "My dog takes better pictures." offer little in terms of constructive value and are probably best reserved for your own private thoughts on the subject matter.

However; if you can point out a specific to go with those statements, everything changes. By expanding your comment to "your picture does nothing for me because there just isn't any contrast between the subject and the background, perhaps if you had used a shallower depth of field, the subject would have been more apparent. What would happen if you upped your shutter speed and opened the aperture to f/2.8?" That now becomes a legitimate critique point instead of just a manner of increasing one's post count.

Life is a learning experience, I welcome comments and critique of my work because I know that there is always room for improvement.

[Croasdail]

Great comments all.

To Rich's comments on the Kid shooters, that is totally understood. But it still frustrates me some. For example, my youngest did t-ball this year and I took some shots of the kids. When the parents see my shots, the comment I predictably get back is "wow, those are a whole lot better then mine - that must be one heck of a camera". Well, yes the camera is a large part of it... but there is also a lot that comes from learning I did here and elsewhere. Simple things like getting really low, watching the backgrounds, shoot really tight (every camera now as a million times zoom on it now)..... also make a difference, and I freely share these hints with them. Now there are more then a few that just don't care enough and are happy with their results.... and that is fine. It's their kid and their shots... why would I care. But to some extent, like mentioned above, I assume that because someone has taken the time and effort to join this forum, and post an image to strangers... they are looking for something. Then again, I am assuming and you know what happens when you do that.

And Dan.... thanks for the time on that reply... well thought out.