Which flash for the 20D?

[luckymomoftwins]

I need to get a new flash and am not sure which to go with. I use my camera mostly to get shots of my children and I do occasional birthday parties and family portraits (mostly outside on the beach since we are in FL.)

I don't need anything too advanced (I'm still learning the functions of the 20D and do not want to make myself too crazy.) I just need a good basic mulitpurpose flash. Any suggestions? (Price is not an issue but I'd rather not spend a fortune if I don't have to.)

[luckymomoftwins]

http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?omid=113&ref=dealtime&utm_source=DealTime&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=CN430EX&sku=CN430EX

Anyone know anything about Beach Camera? Is this a good price ($221.00) for the 430?

[allenko]

I just bought a 430EX from Beach Camera. Excellent company, good price, fast delivery. Get the 430EX before 7/15 for the $15 rebate!:)

[erdavis]

The Canon 430 EX will get the job done and the price is right. Also, the Sigma EF-500 DG Super is priced lower than the Canon 430 EX and has a higher guide number. I have both flashes and they get the job done. I use them a lot for indoor car shows and events.

[steve547]

None of these flashes are "basic multipurpose" flashes because they're all controlled by your 20D which is anything but "basic". I think any of the above mentioned flashes will be fine. Even the high end canon 580 or the low end sigma standard (like I have) will work similarly. The learning curve on these flashes is about as long as the learning curve on your 20d. The trick will be to fool the 20D into using the flash as the main light source and not just a fill in flash(which the ettl system is programed to do). Alot of people are using their old thyristor auto flashes, but you must make sure they are compatible with the 20D or you can damage the camera. Good Luck.

[tim]

430EX

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123694

[Curtis N]

The trick will be to fool the 20D into using the flash as the main light source and not just a fill in flash(which the ettl system is programed to do).There's really no trick required. You just put the camera in manual mode, the flash in E-TTL, and adjust FEC as needed.

[steve547]

There's really no trick required. You just put the camera in manual mode, the flash in E-TTL, and adjust FEC as needed.

That wont do it. You have to use the camera manual mode and ettl as you said, but you also have to keep the f stop high (like f8 or above) and the shutter speed at 1/250 to force the 20D to fire the flash at near maximum intensity. This keeps the ambient light effects at a minimum. You can still adjust the FEC to correct the exposure, but it wont reduce the effects of the ambient light.

[kennys350d]

not looking to spend too much? the 430EX will get the job done.

[Thornfield]

This shot was taken with a 430EX bounced off the ceiling and using a white card velcro'd to the back to bounce some fill back into her face. I have no need for the advanced features of the 580EX so this is just right for me.
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=190865

[Curtis N]

you also have to keep the f stop high (like f8 or above) and the shutter speed at 1/250 to force the 20D to fire the flash at near maximum intensity.Generalizations like this are a little dangerous.

With a 1/250 shutter speed, you won't get a significant amount of ambient light affecting your shots indoors, even with a wide-open lens, unless you really crank up the ISO. And if you're bouncing the flash, f/8 and ISO 100 will often require more flash power than a 580EX can deliver in a decent sized room.

It's misleading to state that E-TTL is designed to act as fill flash and not the main light source. It's designed to be used either way. And the point I was trying to make was that getting the E-TTL system to do what you want doesn't involve "tricks". It requires taking control of the camera (M mode) and it requires understanding the basics of light, exposure, and how our equipment works.

[Wilt]

That wont do it. You have to use the camera manual mode and ettl as you said, but you also have to keep the f stop high (like f8 or above) and the shutter speed at 1/250 to force the 20D to fire the flash at near maximum intensity. This keeps the ambient light effects at a minimum. You can still adjust the FEC to correct the exposure, but it wont reduce the effects of the ambient light.

I'll have to side with Curtis, in agreeing, "You just put the camera in manual mode, the flash in E-TTL, and adjust FEC as needed" to get the flash as main source.

Pick M, pick your speed (best if under 1/250, to avoid need for HSS) and your aperture, the flash in ETTL and set FEC to +2/3 or +1EV results in fine use of flash as main source. Choosing a slow speed and a faster f/stop will permit one to capture the ambient background light ('dragging the shutter')

[Wilt]

It's misleading to state that E-TTL is designed to act as fill flash and not the main light source. It's designed to be used either way..

It is designed to be used either way, but IMHO it is designed POORLY for flash as the main light source! The Canon engineering guys made it so that by default it always thinks it is in fill mode...until you tell the light to use FEC +EV. It is counterintuitive to me to take two shots:

1) Ambient only, then 2) as Flash main light

and to have EC=0 for the first and FEC= +1 on the second in order for the brightness of my subject to come out the same density values in both shots! There is no other camera or flash unit in the world that I have used where I have to tell the camera to OVEREXPOSE in order to get a PROPER exposure with flash! There should be a Custom Function where you get to declare Flash Main Source= 0, Flash Fill=1.

[René Damkot]

Well, I wouldn't want to use (on camera) flash as main anyway, so I think it's GOOD design actually... (which still leaves room for improvement, obviously. Look at Nikon)

[Wilt]

Well, I wouldn't want to use (on camera) flash as main anyway, so I think it's GOOD design actually... (which still leaves room for improvement, obviously. Look at Nikon)

The problem is that if you have an external flash unit under ETTL control, it does the underexposure routine just like the on-board flash unit does! The only way to beat it (ETTL working at fill output levels) is to have a flash that runs Auto on its own photosensor circuit (like Metz) or to use a flash on Manual output and rely on guide numbers.

[René Damkot]

Maybe you could let Canon adjust your flash metering?

[Wilt]

Maybe you could let Canon adjust your flash metering?

This is so commonplace, Canon should resolve the design issue and adjust all cameras accordingly, not on a one-by-one basis when each person complains and sends in their camera. Why is everyone so tolerant of a common weakness...there are recalls for other products that many get quite outraged about and insistent to the manufacturer!

[steve547]

Pick M, pick your speed (best if under 1/250, to avoid need for HSS) and your aperture, the flash in ETTL and set FEC to +2/3 or +1EV results in fine use of flash as main source. Choosing a slow speed and a faster f/stop will permit one to capture the ambient background light ('dragging the shutter')

I agree with you Wilt and Curt, but basically we're all saying that you got to take control of the 20D in order to get a consistently acceptable flash exposure in low light conditions. My basic recipe for indoor flash with the 20D is:
( I'm using the word recipe instead of 'trick' because I think I offended Curt with that word and I apologize, Curt.)

1 - Put both Camera and Lens on Manual and Manually focus because auto focus in inconsistent in low light. Besides that's why we bought an SLR!
2 - Put the flash on Ettl mode.
3 - Put shutter at 1/250 to convince the 20D it can't get enough ambient light and needs to use the flash as its main light source.(This provides a consistent color balance close to 'daylight')
4 - The f stop in general should be 2 stops above the lowest lens fstop for normal depth of field(sharp focus). It also further convinces the 20D to use the flash as a main light source.
5 - I always have the FEC at +2/3 because it's just set too low by Canon in the factory.
6 - If I'm really ambitious, I use the FEL(flash exposure lock) after focusing on my main subject.

If you have any other suggestions, Wilt, Curt or anyone, I'd love to hear them. I'm still trying to get the same consistent pictures with the 20D and ettl flash that I used to get with my old slr and thyristor flash. I'm coming to conclusion that the Digital SLR is not really a camera but rather a computerized optical device made to look like a camera so we aren't afraid to buy it. I'm getting that same feeling about the ettl flash, but I do enjoy using them alot.

[Wilt]

I agree with you Wilt and Curt, but basically we're all saying that you got to take control of the 20D in order to get a consistently acceptable flash exposure in low light conditions. My basic recipe for indoor flash with the 20D is:
( I'm using the word recipe instead of 'trick' because I think I offended Curt with that word and I apologize, Curt.)

1 - Put both Camera and Lens on Manual and Manually focus because auto focus in inconsistent in low light. Besides that's why we bought an SLR!
2 - Put the flash on Ettl mode.
3 - Put shutter at 1/250 to convince the 20D it can't get enough ambient light and needs to use the flash as its main light source.(This provides a consistent color balance close to 'daylight')
4 - The f stop in general should be 2 stops above the lowest lens fstop for normal depth of field(sharp focus). It also further convinces the 20D to use the flash as a main light source.
5 - I always have the FEC at +2/3 because it's just set too low by Canon in the factory.
6 - If I'm really ambitious, I use the FEL(flash exposure lock) after focusing on my main subject.
.

I would say that Point 3 should be ANY SHUTTER SPEED, not merely 1/250. Lower f/stop permits capture of ambient light.

[steve547]

I would say that Point 3 should be ANY SHUTTER SPEED, not merely 1/250. Lower f/stop permits capture of ambient light.

I would think that any combination of slower shutter speed and lower fstop # should increase ambient light effects and the 20D would then shut down the flash to minimal fill-in stength, like it is programmed to do. That has been my experience.

[Wilt]

I would think that any combination of slower shutter speed and lower fstop # should increase ambient light effects and the 20D would then shut down the flash to minimal fill-in stength, like it is programmed to do. That has been my experience.

Not if the camera is on Manual!

[Curtis N]

I'm using the word recipe instead of 'trick' because I think I offended Curt with that word and I apologize, Curt.Life is too short to get offended on internet forums. No need to apologize.

Other camera brands may be programmed to deal with flash differently than Canon. But it's mostly about taking control of the camera. "M" mode is a way of saying to your camera, "I'm in charge. Do what I tell you, and don't ask questions!"

[rabidcow]

My speedlight can beat up your speedlight...:)

[MrScott]

My speedlight can beat up your speedlight...:)
Psst - your web page got sucker punched huh?

[steve547]

Not if the camera is on Manual!

Yes Wilt. Even when you set the 20D on Manual, it will still control the ettl flash automatically and cut its light output to properly expose the subject. Only by switching the flash to Manual, can you stop the 20D from controlling the flash.
So if you use 1/30 and keep the fstop wide open, the 20d will have enough ambient light to expose the picture and cuts down the flash output to a minimum fill-in intensity. By using 1/250, there's no way the 20d can get enough ambient light, and is forced to use the flash as the main light source by firing it at a high intensity.
I'm pretty sure that's how it works even though it's not explained well in the manual.

[rabidcow]

Psst - your web page got sucker punched huh?

Nope, I just moved most of my images HERE (http://www.pryorportrait.com/gallery/gallery2/main.php) to give Gallery2 (http://gallery2.org/) a try.:p

[BigBlueDodge]

Man, you guys completely hijacked her post here. I'm sure she's thoroughly confused now.

Now back to the original topic. Luckymom, the Canon 430ex would be a nice flash for you. It can grow with you as you get more into photography, and be used as a wireless slave if you ever want to branch out into using multiple speed lights.

[Tareq]

580EX --> better
550EX --> cheaper
430EX --> much cheaper, hehe

[allenko]

My suggestion:

430EX - for beginning / intermediate
580EX - for advanced / professional

Both are great.

[tamjam]

I need to get a new flash and am not sure which to go with. I use my camera mostly to get shots of my children and I do occasional birthday parties and family portraits (mostly outside on the beach since we are in FL.)

I don't need anything too advanced (I'm still learning the functions of the 20D and do not want to make myself too crazy.) I just need a good basic mulitpurpose flash. Any suggestions? (Price is not an issue but I'd rather not spend a fortune if I don't have to.)

Mom~
You sound like an enthusiastic amatuer like me....I also have the 20D and I just got the 430Ex. I had the 420, but for a few more bells and whistles it was worth an upgrade to me. But I couldn't justify going for the 580, the 430 fits my needs just fine. I don't think you would be disappointed with the 430.

Good Luck!
Tammie

[Treat me like a tourist]

Im with Tareq, i went for the 580 and it was a stretch for me however i have never looked back and regretted it, its a fantastic flash, and it is well matched with your 20d.

Of course by now you probally have your flash.
So what did you get in the end?