Photo Passes

[livewire-photography.com]

quite simply, how the hell do you get one???? do you just e-mail your portfolio (website) to the band, to the recored company to the venue who???
Please help!
James.....

[taygull]

I think it depends on who you are trying to shoot. For me I found a venue that was not taking photo's of the acts and worked a deal with them to be the house photographer. Now I've gotten to know some local and regional acts and have a portfolio strong enough to request a pass. For the more established acts you are going to have to find someone you have a connection with that can get you in. It will help to be able to show your portfolio.

[Seefutlung]

Photo Passes are for media photogs. If you are not a media photog you won't get one unless you know somebody ... or know somebody that knows somebody. I'm sure you will find exceptions, but that is the general rule. Now if the band hires you ... then through the band you can get a photo pass, otherwise you gotta work for newspaper, magazine, wire service, et cetera.

[Steve Parr]

If you request a "photo pass", you might as well carry a big sign that says "ROOKIE" on it. Refer to them as "credentials", and you'll be taken far more seriously.

I started out by working with two bands. Through them, I got to know people at the venues, as well as other bands. These other bands got me into larger venues (ie: House Of Blues), so now I have contacts in those.

A year ago, I was shooting bad bar bands in low-rent clubs with poor lighting. In September, I'm scheduled to shoot Eric Johnson (http://www.ericjohnson.com).

More often than not, you'll find it easier to do if you know somebody. Don't be afraid to use any and all contacts you have to get your camera through the door...

[DwightMcCann]

For the most part you will have to spend a few years, yes YEARS, developing your technique and style, spending a lot of money on expensive equipment and providing people with reasons to be interested in your work. This is not some hobby that you get to do just because you want to do it like shooting babies and birds or landscapes. Then, if you want to make any money at it, you will discover that, in addition to a lot of talent demonstrated by a fabulous portfolio, it is who you know and who you are affiliated with that counts. And don't ignore that there is a lot of competition ... every Tom, Dick and Steve with a digital camera wants to be cool and shoot the bands. No kidding ... it is a lot more work than its worth ... try something else like glamor.

[narlus]

For the most part you will have to spend a few years, yes YEARS, developing your technique and style, spending a lot of money on expensive equipment and providing people with reasons to be interested in your work. This is not some hobby that you get to do just because you want to do it like shooting babies and birds or landscapes. Then, if you want to make any money at it, you will discover that, in addition to a lot of talent demonstrated by a fabulous portfolio, it is who you know and who you are affiliated with that counts. And don't ignore that there is a lot of competition ... every Tom, Dick and Steve with a digital camera wants to be cool and shoot the bands. No kidding ... it is a lot more work than its worth ... try something else like glamor.

don't forget narlus in that list. :lol::lol::lol:

[DwightMcCann]

don't forget narlus in that list. :lol::lol::lol:

Damn, sorry, Narlus ... I wrote Tom, Dick ... and then thought of Steve and forgot you!

[taygull]

And don't ignore that there is a lot of competition ... every Tom, Dick and Steve with a digital camera wants to be cool and shoot the bands.

Thank goodness there are no Chris' in that list!:lol:

[DwightMcCann]

Or Dwight's!

[livewire-photography.com]

Hey, thanks guys, thats what i needed to know, so basically alot of practice, when i have uploaded latest photos onto my site (i count that as my portflio) then i think i shall start sending it to magazine companys etc!
once again thanks, im liking this forum havnt been member long ut already i feel i have learned loads! well its time for work gggrrrrr (not thhe camera sort iether :-( )
Cheers,
James...

[garnerfoto]

And don't ignore that there is a lot of competition ... every Tom, Dick and Steve with a digital camera wants to be cool and shoot the bands. No kidding ... it is a lot more work than its worth ... try something else like glamor.

Nice to see I've not been forgotten.;)

[Steve Parr]

Nice to see I've not been forgotten.;)

Same here!

And he had to go out of his way to include me!!

[rab_cilbup]

>More often than not, you'll find it easier to do if you know somebody.

Usually works for me, sometimes barefaced cheek is good as well - just ask - they can only say no and you're no worse off then when you asked.

I've got "credentials" for at least two gigs next year just because I asked politely via email and I bought tickets anyway.

"Shy bairns get nowt" as we say in Newcastle :-)

[Steve Parr]

>More often than not, you'll find it easier to do if you know somebody.

Usually works for me, sometimes barefaced cheek is good as well - just ask - they can only say no and you're no worse off then when you asked.

I've got "credentials" for at least two gigs next year just because I asked politely via email and I bought tickets anyway.

"Shy bairns get nowt" as we say in Newcastle :-)

Not sure what that means, but alrighty!!!

There's nothing wrong with simply asking, like you say. It's great when it works...

[prep]

Then, if you want to make any money at it, you will discover that, in addition to a lot of talent demonstrated by a fabulous portfolio, it is who you know and who you are affiliated with that counts.

And if you want to make money shooting bands, cash up front before you start. They are worse than brides :(

[DwightMcCann]

And if you want to make money shooting bands, cash up front before you start. They are worse than brides :(

(1) Yes, being shy will get you ignored.

(2) Always be improving your portfolio.

(3) It is not brides who don't pay, but their fathers! And having worked with a fair number of bands I agree that they are terrible ... and that is being charitable ... don't deliver the goods without collecting first unless the money really isn't important.

[simonSE15]

If you request a "photo pass", you might as well carry a big sign that says "ROOKIE" on it. Refer to them as "credentials", and you'll be taken far more seriously.


In England you would request a "photo pass" for larger venues. Or "accreditation" for, say, a festival.

Lots of small to medium venues do not require them.

Various people have the power to issue photo passes. First and foremost the PR company that handles the press for the band. Also the record label (these might be the same if its in-house). Or the band themselves. The venues themselves dont, in my experience, issue photo passes. Although some venues do have in-house photographers.

I would suggest you offer to take photos for a magazine or website and start to establish yourself that way.

[Steve Parr]

And if you want to make money shooting bands, cash up front before you start. They are worse than brides :(

Not a bad bit of advice, although I've not had a problem with payment upon delivery of the photos...

[earplugsrequired]

If you request a "photo pass", you might as well carry a big sign that says "ROOKIE" on it. Refer to them as "credentials", and you'll be taken far more seriously.

I started out by working with two bands. Through them, I got to know people at the venues, as well as other bands. These other bands got me into larger venues (ie: House Of Blues), so now I have contacts in those.

A year ago, I was shooting bad bar bands in low-rent clubs with poor lighting. In September, I'm scheduled to shoot Eric Johnson (http://www.ericjohnson.com).

More often than not, you'll find it easier to do if you know somebody. Don't be afraid to use any and all contacts you have to get your camera through the door...

Okay I don't know how things are done outside the States but basically you need some sort of publication whether it be a magazine, newspaper, newsletter, webzine etc.. Then yes you email the publicist in most cases and put in a request to cover their band - asking for tickets and a photo pass. Yes you do ask for a photo pass in most cases as that is what it is called and it is what they call it as well. When I used to shoot soccer at the National level I put in for "credentials". The first time I correspond with a publicist I let them know more about the publication but seriously many of my emails as similar to emailing an old friend. You get to know the people you deal with on a reqular basis and there have been times when I have gotten calls that I'm on a list for a show that I didn't even request! I've also gotten extra tickets to shows this way.

[livewire-photography.com]

its ike a circle though, you have to get the photos to get the portfolio, to get the photo pass, but to get the photo pass you need to have a good portfoilio lol, i have been lucky with getting passes when alice cooper comes round to uk! as i on a couple of tours have had passes so i give whoever gave me the pass the photos to say thanks.
well tomoz im lucky as i shoot for a nightclub every thursday night, well that night (the night is called The Propaganda) propaganda is in a different place on friday ( sh*t today lol i ned to get some sleep got work at 7;30 and itshalf 2, just coome in from that club, well im shooting at the bristol academy where good bands go, and so im hoping to get to know people as me and the dj are friends so il get intraduced anyway. so hope something will come out of that. and he is also sorting me out a pass for the ashton court festial in bristol, so i guess its who you know aswell! and practice and spose a litlle bit of a lucky brake!
well sorry to ramble on lol, just up loading photos now
thanks for all the advice have taken it in!
Many thank guys
James....

[narlus]

why do you need a photo pass to get a portfolio? i've shot at least 8 shows since March (pretty much all at different venues), paying my own entry and staking out my place among the other punters...

[Seefutlung]

why do you need a photo pass to get a portfolio? i've shot at least 8 shows since March (pretty much all at different venues), paying my own entry and staking out my place among the other punters...

Typically, a credential will get you into a position/area/access to get the best shots. Comes with free food too!

[Screamer]

Personally, I think it's less about years and more about technique, consistency, and flexibilty. Work on shooting at different smaller venues, under different lighting etc...While, it's true you'll need some pretty high-end gear, you can get by with a 50mm lens to start...especially at smaller clubs. Believe it or not, the bigger the show/venue, the easier it is to shoot.

But to expand on your question...Ask yourself what portion of the business (music industry) do you want to shoot for, and how much do you want to make? Then put together a realistic plan based on your geography.

I learned early on that shooting for bands is a losing proposition in regards to profit. If you are just shooting for fun you might catch a break by working with the bands directly and score some credentials.

For instance, you could always backdoor your way into a bigger show. Generally for large shows, there is a local opening act. Figure out who they are and befriend them. If they open for a national tour, they like the other bands on the tour have limited guest lists and media passes availble through the promoter. If you have gotten this far, there is a god chance you can hunt down the headliner's management. Just don't expect them to want to purchase your shots.

[rachelpattison]

Some great advice here, was wondering how far in advance to you apply for passes? Is it further in advance for bigger shows? If you were lucky enough to shoot for a publication are they likely to sort out the pass? Thanks

[narlus]

Typically, a credential will get you into a position/area/access to get the best shots. Comes with free food too!

yeah, but what does creating a portfolio have to do w/ taking pictures of some band of the week in the enormo-dome? hit the clubs!

[earplugsrequired]

Some great advice here, was wondering how far in advance to you apply for passes? Is it further in advance for bigger shows? If you were lucky enough to shoot for a publication are they likely to sort out the pass? Thanks

time frame depends on the artist. i put in when the NIN dates were listed to secure my tickets and was reminded to put in for the photo pass a couple of weeks prior to the show.

Most shows I put in for about a week to two ahead. Some I have set up on very short notice but usually those are with publicists that I deal with all the time. Some shows they email me about and ask me to cover. It all depends.

Also, depending on the venue, artist if it's a multiple artist bill which most are, you need to check with all the artists about shooting. I just did Taking Back Sunday, Angels & Airwaves, Head Automatica and since AVA was a different label, they had to be set up separate. That was a large venue but in some of the smaller venues it's the same.

[earplugsrequired]

why do you need a photo pass to get a portfolio? i've shot at least 8 shows since March (pretty much all at different venues), paying my own entry and staking out my place among the other punters...

okay do you want crowd shots with heads in your photos? Do you want to be jostled around by the crowd? Do you want to be squished up against a barricade? If you don't mind these things, hang out in the crowd and shoot away. Also, for most bands here, pro gear isn't allowed.

[Steve Parr]

I'm shooting two pretty big shows in September; the San Diego Music Awards, and a presentation called "Primal Twang".

I'm really looking forward to the latter. Guitarists like Doc Watson, Doyle Dykes, Albert Lee, and Eric Johnson will be performing. I simply e-mailed the promoter of the show requesting a credential.

The San Diego Music Awards was a bit different. My company is one of the sponsors, so our VP of PR cntacted the promoter about my shooting it.

I look at it this way: I'll ask anyone I have to in order to shoot someone. The worst they can say is "No", which, effectively, gains the same result as my not asking at all...

[Steve Parr]

okay do you want crowd shots with heads in your photos?

I've shot bands that have requested exactly that...

[narlus]

okay do you want crowd shots with heads in your photos? Do you want to be jostled around by the crowd? Do you want to be squished up against a barricade? If you don't mind these things, hang out in the crowd and shoot away. Also, for most bands here, pro gear isn't allowed.

no, but it sounds like we are operating in two different arenas...i typically don't go to shows where there are photog areas...it's every(wo)man for themselves, and there are no restricted areas. of course, i don't bother w/ bands i personally would never listen to (like taking back sunday), so our aims are different. the places i shoot are typically well under 1000 ppl capacity, more like half that or less.

don't get me wrong, it would be v. cool to be able to get a pass to shoot bands in places like the Orpheum, but it's not the end goal for me, and if i have to leave my camera home when i go see bands like Wilco, Nick Cave, et al, so be it (better than getting the 2 song bumrush and missing 90% of the show, even if i have to buy my own ticket).

[Seefutlung]

yeah, but what does creating a portfolio have to do w/ taking pictures of some band of the week in the enormo-dome? hit the clubs!

The original question was "How do I get a photo pass..." One of the responses was to shop your portfolio to various parties that receives photo passes. Among other things, a media outlet is not only interested in great photography, but great photography under pressure. Shooting a No-Name band in a No-Name club is different than shooting the Rolling Stones at the Hollywood Bowl ...

The best way to get shots at a "controlled" event is with a photo pass. For most of us, the only way to get a photo pass is to work for a media outlet. And, for most of us, the only way to work for a media outlet is to have a chat with them and show them your work ... hence a portfolio.

For most of us, (sorry, but I feel compelled to qualify my statements because of those that pixel peep every word looking for the exception), we start out shooting for the school paper, then a local community weekly, then a daily, then a bigger market daily, et cetera (or some variation thereof).

Photo passes are a limited commodity. Photo passes are primarily for media representatives. Many bands/PR Firms/producers will send out a media pass request form to established media outlets (i.e. newspapers, magazines, wire services, et al), the media outlet fills out the number of passes needed. Often, the bands/PR firm/producers will just send X amount of passes to an established media outlet. And/or passes are obtained by the media outlet by a request from the media outlet to the organization producing the show.

I am sure that there are many variations of the above, but in general terms, that is how photo passes work.

[narlus]

no disagreement there, Seefutlung. my point is that you can build a portfolio during the 'formative' years, shooting for the school paper, local weekly, etc. it's highly unrealistic to expect that one can grab a photo pass and shoot david bowie after not being through some sort of evolution wrt to yr photography and access.

my other points were just a friendly debate w/ earplugs-required on what my end goals are, and why i shoot pictures at shows.

[DwightMcCann]

I want to step back in here (if I haven't been banned yet ... I cast an inappropriate observation about moderators and have been "spoken to" ... a really nice thing here is that you don't simply get banned ... the mods do try to straighten you out first!) and point out that my entire concert shooting career has rested on a relationship with a promoter and then a venue. While I happily provide courtesy images to media (both English and Spanish) my entree has always been at a different level. This is only to suggest that it may be more about positioning yourself, making contacts, talking yourself up, networking in general ... rather than just asking for credentials. Use every option possible ... sometimes they will cross fertilize.

I also wanted to make it clear that there are no "Standard Operating Procedures" across the industry. Every artist, venue, manager, promoter, label or what have you does different things at different times with different folks. Venues usually have the least to say in anything that matters (which is why I get the same treatment as every other tog even though I have an All Access pass and access to the cookies and sandwiches when they don't) but they frequently determine which media get credentialled. Labels and management have the most to say ... how many songs, where you can stand, etc. If you can get access via management that is best ... I now have a couple of artists where I get access by venue and management. If you are good after a while you create relationships with a bigger and bigger network with a fair amount of overlap ... this is optimum.

I am rambling but I have one more "point" I wanted to work in here: establishing a relationship with a venue may turn out to be the optimum approach. I notice several folks here in addition to me shoot for the venue. I think Chris Fritchie (taygull on POTN) and Rene Damkot have that as their primary focus. The advantage is shooting often in a familiar place of many different groups. It may also include some mutually beneficial PR with wallspace or webspace and a chance to sell work to the bands or their management (I have licensed images to four or five bands from the casino shoots.) You don't need to worry about getting a credential/photo pass.

This is a great discussion and there is a lot left to be said ... by others than me! :-)

[taygull]

Thanks Dwight,

I think most would benefit from the same approach I took. I went to a venue where I knew they did not have a house photographer, they had the type of acts I wanted to shoot, and they were close by so I could keep expenses down. It is easy to find them...look at the quality of shots on their website as compared to the quality of acts performing.

I don't want to share the specifics of compensation but lets just say I was able to work a deal that was great for the venue as well as me.

What this has done for me is given me access to regional and now one particular national performer. I've used this opportunity to network and provide images as well as to "sharpen" my skills and figure out what I need with respect to equipment (hence the new 70-200mm f/2.8 USM IS, along with a 2.0 TC). I provided one of the artist a shot he now uses on his website for his booking page at no charge. We have networked and yesterday he called wanting to know if he could hire me to shoot band promo shots.

It is building......

The other cool thing is I also took my portfolio to a local magazine in North Texas and we are negotiating me being the Staff Photographer for them. This would get me credentials for acts like Kenny Chesney, George Strait and many other big acts as the venue is in the city the magazine distributes to.

What is my ultimate goal.....

It is to do this full time but not necessarily as a "performing artist" photographer. I want to develop a name and a portfolio. I'll do the staff job pretty cheap because I will get to network with everyone in one of the fastest growing cities in the country and my work will get seen by tens of thousands of people when it is on the cover. This will give me credibility to the clients I am after.

So my long winded point is you have got to start small and be just as creative about marketing yourself as you are taking pictures. Learn something unique that most photogs can't do. My "niche" is the montage/collage, the acts go nuts over these.

See you in the viewfinder!

[Screamer]

Thanks Dwight,

I think most would benefit from the same approach I took. I went to a venue where I knew they did not have a house photographer, they had the type of acts I wanted to shoot, and they were close by so I could keep expenses down. It is easy to find them...look at the quality of shots on their website as compared to the quality of acts performing.

I don't want to share the specifics of compensation but lets just say I was able to work a deal that was great for the venue as well as me.

What this has done for me is given me access to regional and now one particular national performer. I've used this opportunity to network and provide images as well as to "sharpen" my skills and figure out what I need with respect to equipment (hence the new 70-200mm f/2.8 USM IS, along with a 2.0 TC). I provided one of the artist a shot he now uses on his website for his booking page at no charge. We have networked and yesterday he called wanting to know if he could hire me to shoot band promo shots.

It is building......

The other cool thing is I also took my portfolio to a local magazine in North Texas and we are negotiating me being the Staff Photographer for them. This would get me credentials for acts like Kenny Chesney, George Strait and many other big acts as the venue is in the city the magazine distributes to.

What is my ultimate goal.....

It is to do this full time but not necessarily as a "performing artist" photographer. I want to develop a name and a portfolio. I'll do the staff job pretty cheap because I will get to network with everyone in one of the fastest growing cities in the country and my work will get seen by tens of thousands of people when it is on the cover. This will give me credibility to the clients I am after.

So my long winded point is you have got to start small and be just as creative about marketing yourself as you are taking pictures. Learn something unique that most photogs can't do. My "niche" is the montage/collage, the acts go nuts over these.

See you in the viewfinder!

I took the same starting point as Taygull shooting a local venue that I had been on stage as a number of times as a performer. This is a very good, if not the best way to start. Being in Seattle afforded/affords me the luxury of being very close to the industry. within a month at this venue, I had made the key contact that changed the way I work as a photographer. Unike Taygull, my opportunity came from the commercial side of the business.

Today I shoot for Gibson Guitars' Entertainment Relations, different labels, and I am in discussion with the largest music magazine to do ongoing photographic work. If this deal works out It will put me in front of the highest of A-List bands celebrity. This isn't a braggart rambling, but I wanted to show how quickly things can "explode", when you are consistent as a photographer, willing to go above and beyond to climb, and deliver. All of this last paragraph has happened in about the last 6 months.

To answer another question above, when you are blessed to work at this level, the media does get you your credentials for live performance work. I never apply for them. I am just asked to shoot specific artists, go to the will-call window and I am on the master list and am issued credentials (generally "all access") on the spot. Not having to worry about credentials makes it a lot easier for me to focus on my work that I am being paid for. Also like mentioned, the food and beverages in the Green Room is a plus. :D

[earplugsrequired]

no, but it sounds like we are operating in two different arenas...i typically don't go to shows where there are photog areas...it's every(wo)man for themselves, and there are no restricted areas. of course, i don't bother w/ bands i personally would never listen to (like taking back sunday), so our aims are different. the places i shoot are typically well under 1000 ppl capacity, more like half that or less.

don't get me wrong, it would be v. cool to be able to get a pass to shoot bands in places like the Orpheum, but it's not the end goal for me, and if i have to leave my camera home when i go see bands like Wilco, Nick Cave, et al, so be it (better than getting the 2 song bumrush and missing 90% of the show, even if i have to buy my own ticket).

we are operating in two different arenas.. I shoot for a music site but I also have photos used by bands and yes as Steve has said, sometimes they do want the heads. I have shot from the stage before, behind the band and gotten some great crowd shots. My friend who works with me had her shot of one band shot from the stage used in Pollstar magazine in an add the band bought.

Just as we as photographers like different situations, so do the bands. (if we could just get them to stop using red lights)...

Now I do shoot bands I don't listen to but most of the time that is because I'm covering that band for the site and the way I look at it is even if I don't like this band, it's okay. It's all part of the great picture. Shooting those bands I don't like, or interviewing that band whos music I don't listen to is okay because when I put in a request for that larger band that I want, I get it.

Most of the venues in which I shoot, I shoot the two or three songs and enjoy the rest of the show from my seat or the pit, or wherever I might be watching from. There are a few venues in which I have to put away my equipment so I do miss a couple of songs. Also, there are some bands that because I have gone and covered them, I now love them.

Hey and don't knock Taking Back Sunday. :lol: They put on an amazing show. Sure the crowd can get to you at times but they are very entertaining. I have photographed Wilco before but I would prefer to see Golden Smog.

[earplugsrequired]

Photo passes are a limited commodity. Photo passes are primarily for media representatives. Many bands/PR Firms/producers will send out a media pass request form to established media outlets (i.e. newspapers, magazines, wire services, et al), the media outlet fills out the number of passes needed. Often, the bands/PR firm/producers will just send X amount of passes to an established media outlet. And/or passes are obtained by the media outlet by a request from the media outlet to the organization producing the show.


I totally agree with you here. A friend of mine went through band management because she is just trying to get her foot in the door and because only a certain amount of passes were being given out, she was cut from the list. She didn't have a media outlet.

They do limit the amount of passes at a show. The physical passes themselves are held by whomever is in charge of production be that the production manager, tour manager etc... I know that there have been times where for whatever reason my name wasn't on a list and I have brought my confirmation with me and the person has gotten me my pass. I also got a friend a pass the other night from the tour manager of a band.

[livewire-photography.com]

Wow iv really startd something lol, well iv read everything, and what most people have said i do, like shooting in dindgy little clubs that hold like 400 people, with crappy lights, and i shoot for a event magazine for the nightlife in local areas to me.
i would love to take my camera and stand in a crowed but as the warnings state on the wall, no profesional camera equipment now i know i havnt got the most profesional but none the less it is classed as it, i think most places dont like anything with changable lenses and nothing over 30 mm or something like that! and if they take it off you, then sometimes they dont give it back! believe me iv isse a few gigs cuz of this reason!
so for me to go out and practice and get established im very fortunate in that i have made freindships with owners of nightclubs and local (extremly) small gig venues, that are just weel basically crap as in just one light! (normally Red) and luckily where i need to go eg. Carling Academy i know someone there who is going to try and sort things out for a pit pass or at least for them to let me in with my cam, as long as i pay tickt price, which is fine to me! as i just wanna shoot Shot SHOOOOTTTT gigs all the time!
Thanks everyone for your replies, im nakard again lol as was out shooting last night got to sleep at about 3AM then up at 7:30AM for 9 hours work then drove 36 miles to next gig (this one being at Carling Academy, which is where i need a pass for) now its 3:04Am and i think thats dedication and i would keep doing that! I WANNA shoot every night, sorry for rambling
Cheers Guys
James....

[livewire-photography.com]

oh did i mention i want to do this every night lol hee hee
James...

[Seefutlung]

James ... you are an A*N*I*M*A*L ^5

[Steve Parr]

i would love to take my camera and stand in a crowed but as the warnings state on the wall, no profesional camera equipment now

This really shouldn't stand in your way at all.

I shoot, all the time, in clubs where the same warning is present. If you arrange with the venue to shoot, you won't get hassled. Most clubs, these days, have web sites. Offer them some photos, gratis, to use on their site in exchange for allowing you to shoot.

The upside is that you form a relationship with the club, which can turn into relationships with the bands that play, who might be the people to hire you later...

[taygull]

I took the same starting point as Taygull shooting a local venue that I had been on stage as a number of times as a performer. This is a very good, if not the best way to start. Being in Seattle afforded/affords me the luxury of being very close to the industry. within a month at this venue, I had made the key contact that changed the way I work as a photographer. Unike Taygull, my opportunity came from the commercial side of the business.

Today I shoot for Gibson Guitars' Entertainment Relations, different labels, and I am in discussion with the largest music magazine to do ongoing photographic work. If this deal works out It will put me in front of the highest of A-List bands celebrity. This isn't a braggart rambling, but I wanted to show how quickly things can "explode", when you are consistent as a photographer, willing to go above and beyond to climb, and deliver. All of this last paragraph has happened in about the last 6 months.

To answer another question above, when you are blessed to work at this level, the media does get you your credentials for live performance work. I never apply for them. I am just asked to shoot specific artists, go to the will-call window and I am on the master list and am issued credentials (generally "all access") on the spot. Not having to worry about credentials makes it a lot easier for me to focus on my work that I am being paid for. Also like mentioned, the food and beverages in the Green Room is a plus. :D


Your work is fantastic...did you do your webiste yourself....I really like it.

[René Damkot]

If you arrange with the venue to shoot, you won't get hassled. Most clubs, these days, have web sites. Offer them some photos, gratis, to use on their site in exchange for allowing you to shoot.

Yup, that's what I do.
@Screamer: Taygull is right: Great site!

[NordieBoy]

quite simply, how the hell do you get one???? do you just e-mail your portfolio (website) to the band, to the recored company to the venue who???
Please help!
James.....

Just send them a copy of your Avatar photo.

Soon they'll be beating your door down :D

[livewire-photography.com]

hellp everyone, i think i shall e-mail the venues and start asking around if i can do what steve does! sounds good!
Cheers guys
James...
And yes screamer awsome site!

[DwightMcCann]

Yes, Screamer, how about sending me your Flash templates? :-)

[Screamer]

Hey all,

Thanks for the very kind words! I'm planning on doing a major revamp to the site in the next two weeks. The content is rather out of date, and needs some serious updating. Working with Flash takes quite a bit of time for me, so I put off updating because of the chore. But, when the content isn't representative anymore, you kind of have to bite the bullet.

It did start off as a basic template, but I went and did a lot of customization to it. The jury is still out on Flash and there seems to be a Flash vs. HTML/CSS argument between photographers that is nearly as heated as Canon vs. Nikon. Personally, I really like the fact that Flash gives me one more layer of protection from images being lifted and used without permission. Where it really fails is if you are trying to enable casual browsers to "click" to purchase images...not so user friendly then. Like everything else, it's a tool...albeit one with what I think is a steep learning curve. :D

[DwightMcCann]

Do you use MySQL? I need to get into this ... I have Flash 8 Studio but so far no time to look into it. I currently use Dreamweaver and hand build the pages but I really need to become database driven. Anything you can share would be appreciated.

[Screamer]

Do you use MySQL? I need to get into this ... I have Flash 8 Studio but so far no time to look into it. I currently use Dreamweaver and hand build the pages but I really need to become database driven. Anything you can share would be appreciated.

Actually, Flash embedds all of its contents into a "movie". So the use of it is a lot like video production with tweening, transitions etc...I'm stepping out for a few hours . But, I'll hop back on and hit you up via email.

[woman4life]

In England you would request a "photo pass" for larger venues. Or "accreditation" for, say, a festival.

Lots of small to medium venues do not require them.

Various people have the power to issue photo passes. First and foremost the PR company that handles the press for the band. Also the record label (these might be the same if its in-house). Or the band themselves. The venues themselves dont, in my experience, issue photo passes. Although some venues do have in-house photographers.

I would suggest you offer to take photos for a magazine or website and start to establish yourself that way.

Some venues do issue the passes and in one case a band member asked his road manager (road manager's have a lot of say here often) if I could have a pass and the road manager arranged it. They only allowed photo pass shots for the first three songs of each artist and otherwise no cameras were allowed.

Sometimes when I ask permission to take photos I get a different story from the venue, the band manager, the band the road manager and securityand/or the promotor. Of course, I'm not trying at this point to shoot as a pro, which matters. I go to LOTS of concerts, I buy merchandise, I meet the band members, and I show them the pics I've taken. I think that helps... actually I know it does sometimes.

I have a friend that is a pro and he started out writing restaurant reviews, I believe. Then he started on concert reviews and can get a journalistic photo pass/credential as a media person. I may eventually try going that route. First I'm going to improve on my knowledge of the camera and get better at taking photos.

But I love doing concerts and photographing them. I want to get good at it. Pay would be the icing on the cake so to speak. In fact, if and when I ever am good enough to have to charge I will find it difficult.

Oh... I have been able to photograph a few concerts because I do volunteer work for the promoter plus I always buy a ticket. Some small venues have volunteer help. That might be another avenue for experience.

By the way, never thought about asking for a credential instead of a photo pass. LOL But I'm not presenting myself as a pro at this point. That is good to know.

[narlus]

:(

well i am about to get tickets to a gig where i'd really like to have a photo pass, because the venue doesn't allow cameras... (http://www.92y.org/shop/event_detail.asp?productid=T%2DRT5KH01)

damn...

[earplugsrequired]

:(

well i am about to get tickets to a gig where i'd really like to have a photo pass, because the venue doesn't allow cameras... (http://www.92y.org/shop/event_detail.asp?productid=T%2DRT5KH01)

damn...

well narlus, if it had been within the genre of my site, i could have helped you out.. :confused:

[earplugsrequired]

Some venues do issue the passes and in one case a band member asked his road manager (road manager's have a lot of say here often) if I could have a pass and the road manager arranged it. They only allowed photo pass shots for the first three songs of each artist and otherwise no cameras were allowed.

Sometimes when I ask permission to take photos I get a different story from the venue, the band manager, the band the road manager and securityand/or the promotor. Of course, I'm not trying at this point to shoot as a pro, which matters. I go to LOTS of concerts, I buy merchandise, I meet the band members, and I show them the pics I've taken. I think that helps... actually I know it does sometimes.

I have a friend that is a pro and he started out writing restaurant reviews, I believe. Then he started on concert reviews and can get a journalistic photo pass/credential as a media person. I may eventually try going that route. First I'm going to improve on my knowledge of the camera and get better at taking photos.

But I love doing concerts and photographing them. I want to get good at it. Pay would be the icing on the cake so to speak. In fact, if and when I ever am good enough to have to charge I will find it difficult.

Oh... I have been able to photograph a few concerts because I do volunteer work for the promoter plus I always buy a ticket. Some small venues have volunteer help. That might be another avenue for experience.

By the way, never thought about asking for a credential instead of a photo pass. LOL But I'm not presenting myself as a pro at this point. That is good to know.

I started out with bands in a very similar way with some bands assisting me. It's not a bad way to start out..

[narlus]

well narlus, if it had been within the genre of my site, i could have helped you out.. :confused:

thanks for the thoughts man, i appreciate it!

on the other hand, i can now give the music undivided attention. truthfully, this should be an amazing event.

[René Damkot]

You could try contacting (one of) the bands...

[narlus]

yeah, i was thinking about that but given what i think the venue will be like (structured seating, like a theater) i am thinking if they do allow any shooting it will be the 1-3 songs and yr out rule...i can't see them allowing shooting from the seats; maybe they don't want cameras to interfere w/ the performers and audience, esp for the quieter stuff like the string ensemble.

what the hell though, i will attempt to send correspondence, but i highly doubt anything will come of it.

[Steve Parr]

yeah, i was thinking about that but given what i think the venue will be like (structured seating, like a theater) i am thinking if they do allow any shooting it will be the 1-3 songs and yr out rule...i can't see them allowing shooting from the seats; maybe they don't want cameras to interfere w/ the performers and audience, esp for the quieter stuff like the string ensemble.

what the hell though, i will attempt to send correspondence, but i highly doubt anything will come of it.

If they say no, the effective result is the same as if you hadn't asked at all.

Definitely ask; you may be surprised...

[taygull]

i will attempt to send correspondence, but i highly doubt anything will come of it.

You must be more positive then this. This attitude is why most people fail.

If you consider yourself a "pro" then others have no reason to doubt you until you give them a reason.

It is real simple, you must bring value to the band, venue, management company or who ever you are shooting. Unless someone just "likes" you they won't let you shoot.

So much of it is smoke and mirrors.

Do you have a website that looks professional? Do you have a portfolio? No I'm not talking about some nice shots printed on your home printer but a true artist portfolio (you can get these at Hobby Lobby for $40, even cheaper if you watch their website and print a 40% off coupon). And don't print 4x6 prints for your work. I carry around 2 binders, one has a framed 16"x20" print and the other has about 15 8x10's. When I walk in the door they have no reason to think I am anything less than a pro. You also better be prepared to deliver some nice shots when you are done.

#1 Rule is you need to give someone a reason to say yes!

[narlus]

all very good points, but the chances of me strolling into NYC w/ my RebXT and $80 50mm lens to compete w/ the established shooters seems a bit quixotic at best! :D

[taygull]

all very good points, but the chances of me strolling into NYC w/ my RebXT and $80 50mm lens to compete w/ the established shooters seems a bit quixotic at best! :D

I would agree, if you really want to do this then practice at some free outdoor events. This will teach you what to look for.

You don't have much of a chance of getting great shots with your current gear lineup.

[DwightMcCann]

I would agree, if you really want to do this then practice at some free outdoor events. This will teach you what to look for.

Narlus, listen to Taygull ... he is a master marketeer! Selling anything, including yourself requires is going to expose you to significant refusals, denials and abuse ... those are like bad exp;osures or half a head shots, in that they are meaningless and you should just delete them. The ONLY ONES THAT COUNT are the winners. 500 losers mean nothing, like snowflakes in a storm. ONE WINNER is meaningful.

[Seefutlung]

500 losers mean nothing, like snowflakes in a storm. ONE WINNER is meaningful.

I'm kinda partial to snowflakes ..

[DwightMcCann]

I'm kinda partial to snowflakes ..

I have a sense that you are just kinda partial! :-)

[narlus]

it's a poor man who blames his equipment, and i think i've gotten some pretty good results w/ my barely pro-sumer setup, personally. truth be told, i don't think i'm ready for this type of shoot even if a pass landed miraculously in my hands (ie, shooting for someone other than myself, who expects certain results in a potentially short allowance time).

outdoor shots aren't my bag (i'd likely need the 2.8 version of the 70-200), and this is indoors anyway.

anyway, as steve mentioned i've got nothing to lose by asking, so i might as well cull through my best shots, get a good set together, and see what happens.

[taygull]

it's a poor man who blames his equipment

true.....but I would not go into a gun fight with a knife!

[taygull]

Narlus, listen to Taygull ... he is a master marketeer!


M I C K E Y....MOUSE...Mickey Mouse - Mickey Mouse..


Oh sorry, I thought you said Mouseketeer!:lol:

[Steve Parr]

truth be told, i don't think i'm ready for this type of shoot even if a pass landed miraculously in my hands

That kind of an attitude isn't going to generate too many results, positive or otherwise. It's self-defeating.

I would rather try and fail than not try at all. You won't know what your limitations are, and you won't know the capabilities of your current set-up, if you don't take every opportunity to find out.

If a pass were to fall into your hands, it would be foolish to discard it. SHOOT! You may end up with absolute crap, but you may end up with that one photo that makes you go "Daaaaaaammmmnnnnn"...

[simonSE15]

I would rather try and fail than not try at all.

I agree with this totally. I once got the chance to shoot a fairly well known band for some posed pics and ballsed it up completely. At least I learnt where I went wrong and what I needed to do in future! :confused:

[livewire-photography.com]

Guys hows it all going, great news *(well for me anywaylol) i got a phone call the other night asking if i would be one of the offiial photographers for a festival in bristol (uk) this coming weekend! both sat and sunday, so went out and got my self another 1 gig card lol, and got a battery grip aswell as wanted one for ages but just started new job so was poor last month but he managed to sell it to me(bloody good sales man) its not paid work but im not fussed at all great experience and great for CV, just thought id let yall know! wwoooooo, hopefully through this i can meet some bands etc! bit nervous as its only second out door venue iv shot gig wise, and its probably going to be hot so lots of natural light, but the uni ones turned out alright in the end. @Narlus, maybe you might work a lil better under pressure, think sometimes i do!
Dwight i went to enquire about the 50mm 1.8 lens and it was 90 english pounds which i was like whoah thats a good price, then asked about the 1.4 and it shot right up to 399 english pound lol, so might need to raid the piggy bank for that lol! cheers for pointing them out though!
Cheers everyone
James....

[livewire-photography.com]

Guys hows it all going, great news *(well for me anywaylol) i got a phone call the other night asking if i would be one of the offiial photographers for a festival in bristol (uk) this coming weekend! both sat and sunday, so went out and got my self another 1 gig card lol, and got a battery grip aswell as wanted one for ages but just started new job so was poor last month but he managed to sell it to me(bloody good sales man) its not paid work but im not fussed at all great experience and great for CV, just thought id let yall know! wwoooooo, hopefully through this i can meet some bands etc! bit nervous as its only second out door venue iv shot gig wise, and its probably going to be hot so lots of natural light, but the uni ones turned out alright in the end. @Narlus, maybe you might work a lil better under pressure, think sometimes i do!
Dwight i went to enquire about the 50mm 1.8 lens and it was 90 english pounds which i was like whoah thats a good price, then asked about the 1.4 and it shot right up to 399 english pound lol, so might need to raid the piggy bank for that lol! cheers for pointing them out though!
Cheers everyone
James....

[livewire-photography.com]

aaarrrrggghhhhh posted twice again sorry guys!

[Screamer]

true.....but I would not go into a gun fight with a knife!

Agreed..Part of being successful is identifying the right tools for the job and knowing how to use the best possible equipment for the task. Anyway you shake it, shooting action in moving/low light requires skill and some level of investment in equipment.

That being said, sometimes depending on the venue lighting you will never know until you get there..For example this Monday night I shot what I consider to be a "worst case scenario" show with http://www.thirtysecondstomars.com/ ...a small intimate venue with terrible FOH lighting (only two color gels..Red and Blue) and major label lighting (strobes and intelligent spots) lighting from the backline. Even my super fast lenses would not help this situation. That's where your creativity and desire come into play. My solution? Shoot from the backline! Now, this will not be an option in most cases even with a photo pass...

But, it goes to show you that it's a combination of items that help you be successful and define you as "a package" to market.

[DwightMcCann]

Yup, Phil, absolutely ... ya' just gotta' keep trying and thinking out of the box. I didn't hear back from you on the Flash (that was you, right?)

[Seefutlung]

livewire ... you stuttering again??? Just slow down...

[Metalphotographer]

snip

Did I see you up front shooting Mastodon on the 14th at Qwest Events Center? :)

[Screamer]

Did I see you up front shooting Mastodon on the 14th at Qwest Events Center? :)

Nope not me. :sad: , I'm sure I've run into you at S7 in the past though.

[Screamer]

Yup, Phil, absolutely ... ya' just gotta' keep trying and thinking out of the box. I didn't hear back from you on the Flash (that was you, right?)

Yep, that was me...I've been "off-line" both figuratively and literally since the show Monday night/Tuesday morning. I'll email you tonight, my apologies.

[NordieBoy]

all very good points, but the chances of me strolling into NYC w/ my RebXT and $80 50mm lens to compete w/ the established shooters seems a bit quixotic at best! :D
Just get some red pin-striping for Nifty.
People will be impressed I guarantee it :D

[narlus]

well sorry for bumping an old thread, but i just got an email giving me a press pass for the Masada show!!!! man am i pumped! i already paid for my ticket, but that's not a big deal, as i just want to get some prime shots and i think this will be amazing.

thinking about possibly renting a lens or two for the gig...i'll certainly have my 30 and 50, but may look to rent a longer prime too, maybe an 85 again or longer?

yes!!! thanks to steve parr and others for prodding me to just ask the question. :D

[Steve Parr]

well sorry for bumping an old thread, but i just got an email giving me a press pass for the Masada show!!!! man am i pumped! i already paid for my ticket, but that's not a big deal, as i just want to get some prime shots and i think this will be amazing.

thinking about possibly renting a lens or two for the gig...i'll certainly have my 30 and 50, but may look to rent a longer prime too, maybe an 85 again or longer?

yes!!! thanks to steve parr and others for prodding me to just ask the question. :D

Man, the quickest way to guarantee that you never get a credential is to not ask for one. Glad it worked!

The 85mm f/1.8 will yield some excellent results, and should compliment what you've already got quite nicely...

[DwightMcCann]

Man, the quickest way to guarantee that you never get a credential is to not ask for one. Glad it worked!

The 85mm f/1.8 will yield some excellent results, and should compliment what you've already got quite nicely...

I agree on both points! And considering what you are about I would surely think about saving for my own 85mm f/1.8 (I have one even though I also have the 85mm f/1.2L).

[narlus]

well, i've got a devious plan...

a friend of mine who lives in NYC is a commerical photographer, and though he uses big boy toys (leaf/hasselblad), he's also got some canon gear, including the 85L f/1.2....i'm gonna see if i can swing by and use it for the evening (hell, i'd also like to crash on his couch).

[livewire-photography.com]

Dwight was looking into the 85mm 1.2, i knows its going to be good, well i should hope but is it really good? stupid question really but u know what i meen.
Cheers
JAmes...

[pup]

I enjoyed and learned a lot from this thread. I dont cover bands but I JUST started to shoot actors, directors and guests at semi-private movie screenings. I think Im trying to emphasize with the following is that a lot happens by accident. The first night I brought my 30D with me to a private screening, the promoter of the screenings, who happens to be a producer as well noticed me as "part of one actors' entourage." We started talking and I said, "No no no I am just here taking pics for fun." He then asked me if I wanted to take pictures for him at the screenings, not for money right now, but someday as things pick up. I was thrilled!! He said I am welcome to come for free and bring any guests I want, and insisted I roam around the theater during Q&A sessions as the actors are speaking with the hosts. I've done just a few screenings now and he has had my photos forwarded to production companies and I believe some newspapers. I haven't been published YET, but I am going to get much more creative. Needless to say I have 8 screenings starting Oct 5th where I will meet some very famous actors and directors, plus I am bringing a friend/assistant to watch my gear as I roam around. Keep in mind as you might look at my gear, I am very new to slr's so I dont have much, and I usually get VERY close to the actors because I enjoy that, and also the lighting is VERY DARK so I need primes even though right now I use a stock flash. Yes, Im quite a newb. But again, this all happened sort of by accident and the promoter is very encouraging towards me. He is a very important contact and I have confidence he is going to get me published. I promise!

[taygull]

Great pup! You are going about it the right way.

I have to disagree with the obsession over primes. I've only got a couple pieces of glass but they are pricey. I've got the 24-70mmL f2/8 and the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS. When you are shooting events I just think you can be so much more flexible with these 2 pieces of glass.

My next L will be a very very wide angle. I just don't see the on extra stop to be worth the hassle of having to change lenses all the time.

Maybe some can enlighten me but I find this setup works great.

You do need to invest in a 550EX or a 580EX so you can bounce your flash, this will really help with the indoor shots.

[pup]

taygull, how does the 24-70L hold up without IS? I've heard good things about this lens and now you got me thinking. The theaters I shoot at for now are quite dark but would that even matter with a 580EX? I've come out with some really, really sharp photos with my 50 1.4 with the stock flash, is there any comparison with the 24-70 in your experience? In addition, I'm actually considering selling my 100 macro (not that its bad but I dont use it so much anymore). But the 85 hasnt even arrived yet and I live across the river from B&H. I would strongly consider the 24-70. It would save me time.

[taygull]

taygull, how does the 24-70L hold up without IS? I've heard good things about this lens and now you got me thinking. The theaters I shoot at for now are quite dark but would that even matter with a 580EX? I've come out with some really, really sharp photos with my 50 1.4 with the stock flash, is there any comparison with the 24-70 in your experience? In addition, I'm actually considering selling my 100 macro (not that its bad but I dont use it so much anymore). But the 85 hasnt even arrived yet and I live across the river from B&H. I would strongly consider the 24-70. It would save me time.

I shoot a bunch of live entertainment, the venue where I do most of my shooting allows me as many songs as I like and I can get on top of the performers.

You will loose a couple of stops comparing the 24-70L f/2.8 to your 50mm 1.4. Remember for entertainers on stage it is a big no no to use flash...I NEVER flash a musician...LOL

If you will be using a flash which is what I would do for the type of stuff your shooting then the 24-70 would be perfect. Your shutter speed will be fast enough that you never have to worry about sharpness.

What you loose in 2 stops you will more than gain in "L" quality.

You now will need to learn the art of "fill flash", this is a MUST! The 580EX will be fantastic with that option. You'll set your camera up around f5.6 and then vary your shutter speed from 1/60 to 1/200 and and ISO of around 400 to allow for more or less ambient light. You will then learn to use the * button and allow FEC to adjust automatically how much flash is needed to expose your subject yet not having an impact on the background. Now if you bounce the flash off a low ceiling then it will look like no flash if done right.

There are hundreds of threads on this subject in the flash section.

Remember, if your shooting while someone is performing then you don't want flash. If you are shooting candids during a party you are going to want flash 90% of the time. The problem will be your on board flash will not have enough flexibility to come out with top notch shots.

Good luck and by all means go get the 24-70L f/2.8, what you should do is rent one for one of your parties and see how much you like it!

[blackshadow]

I agree with taygull - I have the 24-70L and it is a fantastic lens - it would be on my camera about 75% of the time. I shoot a lot of low light; I occasionally shoot with f1.4s and even less occasionally with my 70-200L.
I recommend you try the 24-70 out; once you have I am sure you will be hooked on it.

[narlus]

I have to disagree with the obsession over primes.


You do need to invest in a 550EX or a 580EX so you can bounce your flash, this will really help with the indoor shots.

well there you go...my obsession w/ primes is directly related to the fact that the dingy sort of clubs i shoot in wouldn't allow for a decent shutter speed @ f/2.8. not even close; most of the time i'm @ under f/2 and 1600, and still yearning for a good speed.

btw, i think that the canon lineup is definitely weak in the wide prime category...the sigma 30mm f/1.4 is the best lens i can think of in that range, but i'd ideally want something even wider w/ the 1.6 body, at least at times. the shows i'm at means you are typically pinned in only one location.

that said, i am contemplating renting a 24-70 for the Zorn show i'm going to.

oh, and btw, today i just got a press pass for a shot the day after tomorrow (Red Sparowes). :cool:

[René Damkot]

Same here; I have a 20-35/2.8, and like the versatility, but on some occasions I just *need* my Sigma 20/1.8. Stuff like this:
1/6s; f/1.8; ISO 3200 (http://www.moonglade.net/~rene/Rock_ON_Roll/source/rhd20060428r_on_r0010.htm)
1/15; f/2.2; ISO 3200 (http://www.moonglade.net/~rene/Rock_ON_Roll/source/rhd20060428r_on_r0080.htm)
1/20; f/2.2; ISO 1600 (http://www.moonglade.net/~rene/Rock_ON_Roll/source/rhd20060428r_on_r0056.htm)

Allthough lighting isn't always this bad, and these would have benefitted from a fill flash (no flash allowed), even with fill flash, I would still have needed a slow time/high ISO/ fast aperture.

[DwightMcCann]

I have two 580EXs (well, one is at Canon being fixed which is why I had to buy another) but they do no good if you can't use flash. I have an 85mm f/1.2L, 85mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.4 in my kit but lust after the 24mm and 35mm and perhaps 135mm primes. Not only are they faster than the f/2.8 zooms, but images from primes are usually better than zooms ... a bit crisper, better contrast, better color [this is based mainly on my very subjective comparison of images taken under very similar conditions with my 300mm f/2.8L IS prime versus my 70-200mm f/2.8L IS zoom.]

So, Rene, is that guy a priest? Very nice images.

[Croasdail]

Rene.... thanks so much. I have been waffling on the sigma, it isn't that expensive and a fast wide. Images look great. Thanks....

Dwight.... you forgot the 200 f1.8... it's on my list of "someday" lenses. I have had more then a few times where it would have come in dang handy.

[DwightMcCann]

Dwight.... you forgot the 200 f1.8... it's on my list of "someday" lenses. I have had more then a few times where it would have come in dang handy.

I am unaware of such a lens! Is it currently in production by Canon?

[KasiaFan]

I am unaware of such a lens! Is it currently in production by Canon?

Looks like it's out of production, if this is the one you mean
http://www.wlcastleman.com/equip/reviews/200mm/index.htm

[taygull]

That is neat what you've done and those are nice fan shots, better equipment and understanding of photography will improve a process you have started.

On my soap box I just hate to see pictures that in my mind are "black market", I've never taken a picture where it was specifically not allowed, never will. Get the gear and the credentials because you obviously have the love! The gallery seems a little clumsy, and took quite awhile to load, but who am I to complain because my gallery is pitiful as we have not found the software that we want to use.

[earplugsrequired]

On my soap box I just hate to see pictures that in my mind are "black market", I've never taken a picture where it was specifically not allowed, never will. Get the gear and the credentials because you obviously have the love!

They aren't taking photos that aren't allowed. That's just it.. They are valid in being able to take photos from their seats with the camera that they were allowed by band rules to bring into the show.. Many of my friends do this and seriously I started out shooting bands by bringing in my camera where it was allowed. We used to be able to bring a big slr into an all day festival out here.

Being the paying customer and in their seats, they aren't limited to the three song rule that is imposed on us with credentials either.

[taygull]

They aren't taking photos that aren't allowed.

Sorry but read his post after yours, there is acknowledgment that the camera is on occasion snuck in. I'm sorry but it is stealing and in my opinion wrong. It is no different than free songs on the web or bootleg software. It is funny how it is OK here most of the time. I would suspect if the table were turned and most of us who do this for a living found a band using one of our shots without permission we would be pretty upset.

[narlus]

But we have taken the "from the hip" photos before

something like that, taken w/ a compact P&S, is not going to end up on some website or in some magazine; i see it purely as for personal use.

i wanted to take my Elph into Wilco a few years ago, got caught @ security w/ it, and the bastards made me take my battery out and leave it outside the venue. come on.

[taygull]

something like that, taken w/ a compact P&S, is not going to end up on some website or in some magazine; i see it purely as for personal use.



OK, now I understand...stealing is ok as long as it is for personal use! Now I got it!:rolleyes:

[taygull]

i wanted to take my Elph into Wilco a few years ago, got caught @ security w/ it, and the bastards made me take my battery out and leave it outside the venue. come on.

go figure...you were trying to steal and they were the bastards.....I just don't get it!:rolleyes:

Don't take this as a personal issue...I know it is done I just don't like it. I manage an artist and I see no difference then when shots are taken of him or when someone steals his music. It is just not right.

[DwightMcCann]

Sorry but read his post after yours, there is acknowledgment that the camera is on occasion snuck in. I'm sorry but it is stealing and in my opinion wrong. It is no different than free songs on the web or bootleg software. It is funny how it is OK here most of the time. I would suspect if the table were turned and most of us who do this for a living found a band using one of our shots without permission we would be pretty upset.

And so you are going to be a Hall Monitor? :( I would prefer that you give your tongue lashings in PM's as it serves no useful purpose to ridicule or embarrass people publicly. :evil:

[narlus]

???

how is it stealing? what's the harm to the performer? if one didn't have permission to shoot, smuggled a camera in, and took shots w/ expressed interest to sell or otherwise distribute the shots, well then i can see the 'steal' angle.

but for something like the poster describes, what's the harm to the performer (as long as they didn't use flash, which i could see would be highly annoying)?

[taygull]

???

how is it stealing? what's the harm to the performer? if one didn't have permission to shoot, smuggled a camera in, and took shots w/ expressed interest to sell or otherwise distribute the shots, well then i can see the 'steal' angle.

but for something like the poster describes, what's the harm to the performer (as long as they didn't use flash, which i could see would be highly annoying)?


If you have to ask what is wrong then I'm not interested in a circle debate.

There are all kinds of reasons why.

The biggest reason is the venue and artist have said "no cameras" so if you take one in it does not matter what you are doing with the pictures it is wrong and illegal. If the venue and band are cool with it then no problem.

I'm not going to get into a major debate over something as simple as right and wrong.....if you are OK with the illegal act cool, I just don't support it.

[Carlson]

well i just seen my 4th Metallica concert here in Tokyo a couple days ago. I pulled a couple photographers to the side while i was in the mash pit and talk to them. most said they were doing something for there job and 1 guy said he just asked the venue and filled out some paperwork. Its to bad i couldnt get to photograph them that time beings it will probalby be the last time i see them live again.

[taygull]

And so you are going to be a Hall Monitor? :( I would prefer that you give your tongue lashings in PM's as it serves no useful purpose to ridicule or embarrass people publicly. :evil:

Wow! That is the pot calling the kettle black...Mr Raw Hater! LOL:lol:

I figured you would be one who would support the rights of the artist and the venue being this is where you make a big living doing it.

I think it is appropriate in a thread where the poster has made it clear they get pictures of artist via smuggling in a camera.

[narlus]

If you have to ask what is wrong then I'm not interested in a circle debate.

There are all kinds of reasons why.

The biggest reason is the venue and artist have said "no cameras" so if you take one in it does not matter what you are doing with the pictures it is wrong and illegal. If the venue and band are cool with it then no problem.

I'm not going to get into a major debate over something as simple as right and wrong.....if you are OK with the illegal act cool, I just don't support it.

do you not see the difference between 'illegal' and 'steal'?

i suppose you never ignore those 'no turn on red' signs at 3AM.

i'm not looking for a major debate, just some clarification on the 'steal' definition. if someone steals something, there is definite harm to the person whose property was stolen. please explain how that works in the case stated.

[DwightMcCann]

If you have to ask what is wrong then I'm not interested in a circle debate.

There are all kinds of reasons why.

The biggest reason is the venue and artist have said "no cameras" so if you take one in it does not matter what you are doing with the pictures it is wrong and illegal. If the venue and band are cool with it then no problem.

I'm not going to get into a major debate over something as simple as right and wrong.....if you are OK with the illegal act cool, I just don't support it.

Exactly why this should be done in private ... there are just too many very emotional opinions and this isn't the place for it.

[taygull]

do you not see the difference between 'illegal' and 'steal'?

i suppose you never ignore those 'no turn on red' signs at 3AM.

i'm not looking for a major debate, just some clarification on the 'steal' definition. if someone steals something, there is definite harm to the person whose property was stolen. please explain how that works in the case stated.

I think it is pretty clear that it is about right and wrong and the artist has the right to control his image in his concert or appearance.

and no...at 3am I do my best to obey the laws. It comes down to a personal decision and I think I'll leave it at that.

[narlus]

funny that wilco doesn't give a damn about people taping their shows...

I contacted the people behind their [Wilco's] official website. Here is (basically) what I was told: The band likes their fans to be able to record audio from their shows in a non commercial way and trade it with other fans

yeah, right and wrong are very clear in this case (my example), aren't they?

[taygull]

funny that wilco doesn't give a damn about people taping their shows...

No it is not funny, if they want to give away cd's then they can do that. The Dave Mathews Band used this strategy in the early days to help promote the band, not a bad idea.

The difference is that it is the the bands choice not the person in attendance.



yeah, right and wrong are very clear in this case (my example), aren't they?

Yep I guess I'll have to sit down with my daughters and explain to them how I am wrong in this example, should be a pretty simple discussion.:rolleyes: I'm going to have to re-think my entire approach to life now.;)

I'm done.

[narlus]

No it is not funny, if they want to give away cd's then they can do that.

The difference is that it is the the bands choice not the person in attendance.


so what's the difference between giving away their actual product (taped music) [which the band has stated they are A-OK w/ ], and a crappy, grainy snapshot taken w/ a pocket-sized P&S [venue-controlled]?

i mean, if i had a crumpled note from jeff tweedy saying i could take a Kodak moment, would that make it better?

i guess GWB ain't the only unbending self-righteous moralist in TX...

[taygull]

i guess GWB ain't the only unbending self-righteous moralist in TX...

narlus, I have been nothing but polite and I don't appreciate these comments. Like I said, I'm done and unfortunately it has now crossed a line of a healthy debate.

[ACDCROCKS]

Wasn't their a simlar post to this? Steve Parr...Do you remember that post about that one guy wanting to bring in a camera becasue he was too lazy to call up people or wait? Somelines of them sort. It all ended up in a big battle.

[transcend]

OK, now I understand...stealing is ok as long as it is for personal use! Now I got it!:rolleyes:
Please explain how he is stealing something.

[DwightMcCann]

Wasn't their a simlar post to this? Steve Parr...Do you remember that post about that one guy wanting to bring in a camera becasue he was too lazy to call up people or wait? Somelines of them sort. It all ended up in a big battle.
Yeah, I remember. Parr is a bit of an overbearing ass sometimes, too, eh? I am now worrying that I keep making friends with these people ... I actually like them. But I do wish they would take their moral outrage off the public forums ... it doesn't resolve anything and makes them look petty, high handed, righteously indignant and superficial ... hmm, that does describe Parr, huh! :-) Damn I like him! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[taygull]

Please explain how he is stealing something.

Sorry, like I said I'm done. Feel free to email or PM me.

[taygull]

I respect all of your views and understand the issue. But I do wish I did not start all of this. I think I am done, too.


Tourbuslive -

I meant no disrespect to you, I think that was clear in my first post. If anything my "rant" was more about a definition narlus gave of right and wrong. Should I have kept my thoughts to myself as Dwight suggested.......maybe, maybe not. I know it should not get so personal. I enjoy a healthy debate, I don't like personal attacks.

I really admire your passion for live music! I'd love to see what type of shots you could get with some quality gear. I would bet you would really nail some great stuff because of your love for the live show.

[taygull]

Thanks, Taygull. I know that your issue is with the personal attacks and not with me. But I got home and read all of this and was a little shaken. I have had nothing but positive results up untill this point.

On the flip side, we got an email from Edger Winter this evening, thanking us again for the photos that we sent him. Cameras were allowed, by the way. Edger Winter...that's pretty darn cool!

Congrats!

Don't worry about all the drama, sometimes we need a distraction from all the hard work of processing all those RAW files!:rolleyes:

[Steve Parr]

For the record (and sorry for jumping into this late; been travelling), I'm in complete agreement with Taygull on this. If the venue, artist, or management decides that there will be no photography, other than by those with credentials, I won't take my camera in.

There is no difference between "steal" and "illegal". None. It's wrong to do, and I won't do it. I won't share my opinion of those who do.

We have a lot of people here who go out of their way to secure the proper credentials to shoot shows. To not speak out about those who find their way around the rules is tantamount to supporting it, and shows a high disrespect for those who conduct themselves ethically...

[narlus]

the proper term is really 'disobey', not 'illegal'.

btw, i would reckon that being branded a thief might be inferred by some as a personal attack. i didn't particularly care, but i still can't see who the aggrieved party in this situation, or the theft.

maybe it's my punk roots still showing, 25 years on, leading me to question authority...

[ACDCROCKS]

Personally why would anyone rish their camera equipment (which most of spend $$$$) into a concert where it can be taken by security, or be damaged or be told "Get out of here". All in all you have to do is ask.

[taygull]

For the record (and sorry for jumping into this late; been travelling), I'm in complete agreement with Taygull on this. If the venue, artist, or management decides that there will be no photography, other than by those with credentials, I won't take my camera in.

There is no difference between "steal" and "illegal". None. It's wrong to do, and I won't do it. I won't share my opinion of those who do.

We have a lot of people here who go out of their way to secure the proper credentials to shoot shows. To not speak out about those who find their way around the rules is tantamount to supporting it, and shows a high disrespect for those who conduct themselves ethically...

Thanks Steve,

At least I feel like I'm not on this island by myself.

How is it stealing someone ask? The concert and any recording or images is property of the band/venue I believe it will say this on most tickets. The artist have the right to protect their property which is the music and the images of their performance.

and sorry.....I am truly done that is it if you can't get that then we must agree to disagree.

[Steve Parr]

the proper term is really 'disobey', not 'illegal'.

You're arguing semantics. Call it what you will, it's wrong...

btw, i would reckon that being branded a thief might be inferred by some as a personal attack.

Hey, if the shoe fits...

i didn't particularly care, but i still can't see who the aggrieved party in this situation, or the theft.

The aggrieved party is the party which does not want cameras in the venue. The theft is made when someone takes a picture...

maybe it's my punk roots still showing, 25 years on, leading me to question authority...

Questioning authority is fine. Breaking established venue rules is not.

I can't even believe we're having this discussion...

[DwightMcCann]

I can't even believe we're having this discussion...

Thank God, I was getting bored! Welcome home. I agree! ;)

[taygull]

Thank God, I was getting bored! Welcome home. I agree! ;)


The quote in my signature is better than the quote in your signature!:p

[blackshadow]

the proper term is really 'disobey', not 'illegal'.

btw, i would reckon that being branded a thief might be inferred by some as a personal attack. i didn't particularly care, but i still can't see who the aggrieved party in this situation, or the theft.

maybe it's my punk roots still showing, 25 years on, leading me to question authority...

Time for me to put my two cents worth in here... it is about the protection of Intellectual Property and as it is property it is a form of theft.

It's up to bands/management/venues to make their own decisions regarding camera access.

As photographers (whether amateur or professional) we are also artists and should be able to understand why photo access is often limited. How many of you have seen copies of your photos appear places without your permission? Sometimes places where someone else has recieved commercial gain for your labours, I know I have and I don't like it one little bit. I know many musicians feel the same.

Also there is a second thing worth considering; with the advances in camera technology the quality of images from compact P&S and even mobile phone cameras keeps getting better and better - it won't be long before that quality usurps where digital SLRs were several years ago. It won't be long before people using consumer gear will be able to get images close to commercial quality and start selling them for their own commercial gain.

I hear you on the punk rock roots, I have those too and question authority; but I am also aware of respect for others property and rights and can put myself in the shoes of those who some are trying to profit from.

[earplugsrequired]

Sorry but read his post after yours, there is acknowledgment that the camera is on occasion snuck in. I'm sorry but it is stealing and in my opinion wrong. It is no different than free songs on the web or bootleg software. It is funny how it is OK here most of the time. I would suspect if the table were turned and most of us who do this for a living found a band using one of our shots without permission we would be pretty upset.

i have had bands using my photos without my permission.. I've had guitar companies use my photos without my permission. They ended up paying me and paying me more than if they had first asked.. Do I do this for a living? No. but that being said, it really doesn't matter.

So is it also stealing if I had my pass through one of the bands on a festival line up and was their guest and shot the other bands? I had an all access laminate from the one band but I didn't put in for all the bands on the bill? I didn't put in through publicists/management for any of them. I just happened to "work" for one of the bands and was able to shoot them and the others.


my comment was related to the person's first post about buying tickets and taking photos.. I know a lot of people that do that and for many of the shows that I go to, cameras are allowed.. pro gear isn't which to most is detachable lenses but there are some small amazing digital cameras out there.

[earplugsrequired]

If you have to ask what is wrong then I'm not interested in a circle debate.

There are all kinds of reasons why.

The biggest reason is the venue and artist have said "no cameras" so if you take one in it does not matter what you are doing with the pictures it is wrong and illegal. If the venue and band are cool with it then no problem.

I'm not going to get into a major debate over something as simple as right and wrong.....if you are OK with the illegal act cool, I just don't support it.

I agree with you that if there is a no camera rule, then no cameras.. that is what the artist/management wishes and it should be followed.. where i disagreed was you jumping on the person to start with before them saying that they did sneak in the camera.. I agree with you on being against sneaking in.


I think it is appropriate in a thread where the poster has made it clear they get pictures of artist via smuggling in a camera.
since i'm the one that first commented and started all this "discussion" I just wanted to state that remember my comment was toward taygull being in my opinion, and i state in my opinion harsh towards the other person and the situation when at the time, the person had not stated they snuck the camera in.. all facts needed before jumping and i state that for myself as well...

[taygull]

since i'm the one that first commented and started all this "discussion" I just wanted to state that remember my comment was toward taygull being in my opinion, and i state in my opinion harsh towards the other person and the situation when at the time, the person had not stated they snuck the camera in.. all facts needed before jumping and i state that for myself as well...

I figured that I would get feedback on sneaking a camera in.


Sorry earplugrequired but you are clearly mistaken, and I think the poster even changed his thread (notice the edit in his first post). In the first post he also states something like "some" of the bands he shoots allows cameras, that would mean some of the bands he shoots does not allow cameras.

He made a specific comment that some of his pictures were "taken from the hip", thus meaning without permission. He acknowledged this in a post subsequent to the one you made.

There would have been no reason for me to "make up" that the images were taken without permission unless the poster had made it clear that some of that went on.

When I look at images in a thread I make the assumption they were taken with permission unless clearly stated otherwise.

[woman4life]

I will sometimes "push" the rules, but I try hard not to break them. I get rather frustrated sometimes when the rules change depending on who you talk to, on being given info. on cameras that is conflicting, etc. I actually asked a venue once why there were no cameras allowed (Warped Tour) when Warped Tour was asking people to post them. They referred me to the promoter, who told me it was a miscommunication and cameras ended up being allowed (no pro, just point and shoots, so I took my Kodak 6490). I did try to "sneak" one shot without flash of Neil Diamond once, though... because everyone around me was pretty much ignoring any rules, using flash and no one said a word. It didn't work, I was asked not to, and I complied and haven't done anything like that since. I was kinda embarassed that I tried. (True confessions.) LOL

BTW, it's not always so easy as talking to someone. I have been harassed when I was told I was within the contract policies and I was the ONLY one harassed. I've been lied to, given misinformation, etc. (and not even talking pro shots here... just point and shoots.)

Granted, most of the time that is NOT the case, but it does happen.

BTW, if they say "no flash" and someone next to me shoots flash, I always get called on it. Do I have a target on me? That happened last weekend. :(

Sorry, this thing gets me going sometimes. Personally, I don't understand the camera position 90% of the time. I don't see that anything with a point and shoot is going to take business from anyone. I can understand audio/video restrictions, although unless someone has pretty good qual. video, they probably aren't going to do much with it either. I can understand flash restrictions, especially in some venues. I do my best to honor restrictions when they are made clear. It doesn't mean I agree with them often (especially if I know the band has no problem.)

--Melanie

[René Damkot]

So, Rene, is that guy a priest? Very nice images.

Hahaha, not exactely...
He is the singer of the band The Shavers (http://www.theshavers.nl/) (watch the intro)
This was a project I photographed where three singers of dutch bands told about their life 'on the road' and rock and roll in general.
From this guys lifestyle, no, I wouldn't say he's a priest :lol:

Rene.... thanks so much. I have been waffling on the sigma, it isn't that expensive and a fast wide. Images look great. Thanks....

Welcome.
My lens needs to go on a trip to Sigma, 'cause it sometimes gives strange OoF backgrounds
(like this (http://www.moonglade.net/~rene/060611Axis/source/image/rhd20060611axis0175.jpg)). I'ld have had it checked up allready, if only Sigma didn't state a turnaround time of about three weeks....

[narlus]

well to bring this post back to full circle a bit (at least when i jumped in, around page 5), i found out today that the Zorn/Masada shoot i'd miraculously gotten a photo pass for ain't gonna happen. :(

apparently the venue is a union house, so unless i want to fork over $3500 in extortion (er, i mean 'buy out') fees, i can leave my gear at home. i'm not on any sort of magazine or website assignment, so i imagine that those sorts would have their sponsor pick up the tab (though i'd doubt anyone would think that $3500 for some pictures would be a good return on investment; seems to be solely protectionary to me, which is keeping in stride w/ general union philosophies...but i don't want to turn this into a union debate).

F that. for that sort of money, i'd expect Zorn to be the house music for my next several parties.

has anyone ever heard of this before?

[livewire-photography.com]

Well im in the UK, and i never heard of anything like this, thats a bummer Narlus, bit random how they tell you this after (well im prasuming) they said yes???
Some people, honestly.
Bad luck dude
James...

[taygull]

Sneak your gear in and you don't have to pay!:rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Steve Parr]

I've never heard of anything like that. Unless the venue has union photographers, it shouldn't even be an issue...

Steve

[blackshadow]

I've never heard of anything like that. Unless the venue has union photographers, it shouldn't even be an issue...

Steve
The whole thing sounds very weird to me; especially given the number of freelancers in our business - I can't think of a single photographer I know who belongs to a union, however I do know a few who are members of professional associations.

[narlus]

well the 92Y (venue) person is out on vacation, and not back until next week. i guess i'll see if i can get any direct info from them.

[narlus]

sorry for the resurrection, but i will add that contacting the band's booking and/or PR agent can also help...i've just gotten two passes today. :D

[livewire-photography.com]

Hey narlus, when u say booking or PR agent, how would you find them out? go to record company?
James....

[Steve Parr]

Hey narlus, when u say booking or PR agent, how would you find them out? go to record company?
James....

I think the best place to get that information would be at the venue. Whoever books events at the venure would need to have contact information. Whether or not they give it to you is probably another matter: They might, or they might not.

But, since you're there, ask about shooting for the venue, as well...

[narlus]

Hey narlus, when u say booking or PR agent, how would you find them out? go to record company?
James....

i found a couple via the band's or the label's website. i met one via a gig i showed up for and paid to see, and shot. the guy who was the promoter came up to me later and we talked for a bit.

[Screamer]

It depends on how you go about it...I'm working with Godsmack's PR Group, one on one, for an upcoming shoot I am doing with them here in late September.

[rachelpattison]

Hey narlus, when u say booking or PR agent, how would you find them out? go to record company?
James....

Hey James
So I contacted the promoter of a gig that I was trying to get a pass for (they are a large promotions company SJM Concerts) and the guy emailed me a list of gigs for the next 6 months and further into the future that they are promoting with email addresses of all the relavant pr people to contact for passes think its going to be invaluable.

Are you in the UK? Let me know an email address and I'll forward you it, most of the gigs are in the north the company is Manchester based but they do stuff all over the country.

Rachel

[narlus]

ok, here's some more information on the union buyout fee i faced with respect to the Zorn/Masada show:

apparently it's in conjunction w/ the stage-hands union (there is no photographer's union involved), and any non-news outfit (they are exempt, apparently) faces this buyout fee. the reason it's so high has to do w/ the number of stage hands being employed for this particular show; it's proportional. i asked and no one else has forked over the $3500 extortion/hoffa money. the justification is that any pictures or video taken would constitute an opportunity for revenue, and they want a piece of it.

i wonder if the band knows about this.

[Steve Parr]

ok, here's some more information on the union buyout fee i faced with respect to the Zorn/Masada show:

apparently it's in conjunction w/ the stage-hands union (there is no photographer's union involved), and any non-news outfit (they are exempt, apparently) faces this buyout fee. the reason it's so high has to do w/ the number of stage hands being employed for this particular show; it's proportional. i asked and no one else has forked over the $3500 extortion/hoffa money. the justification is that any pictures or video taken would constitute an opportunity for revenue, and they want a piece of it.

i wonder if the band knows about this.

That's ridiculous.

I shoot at the House Of Blues. If ever there was a "union house", it's them. I've never paid a dime to shoot. I'm shooting a production this weekend in a venue that is also "union". Nobody's even suggested that any money needs to be paid.

Now, where I think there might be a difference is that, in my case, I'm always shooting for a particular entity, whether it be the band, the promoter, etc. I'm not selling photos for profit to anyone who wants them. Therein might be the difference, as it's not a "money making" opportunity as the inion probably defines it.

I would ask them how many other photographers are going to be put out of a union gig if you're allowed to take photos. I don't suspect it would be too many. I could see if you wanted to run lights or hang sound equipment; those are jobs that union guys do, and your doing something like that could take the gig from a union member. In that case, a "fee" doesn't seem unreasonable.

But taking pictures?

I think not...

[narlus]

That's ridiculous.

I shoot at the House Of Blues. If ever there was a "union house", it's them. I've never paid a dime to shoot. I'm shooting a production this weekend in a venue that is also "union". Nobody's even suggested that any money needs to be paid.

Now, where I think there might be a difference is that, in my case, I'm always shooting for a particular entity, whether it be the band, the promoter, etc. I'm not selling photos for profit to anyone who wants them. Therein might be the difference, as it's not a "money making" opportunity as the inion probably defines it.

I would ask them how many other photographers are going to be put out of a union gig if you're allowed to take photos. I don't suspect it would be too many. I could see if you wanted to run lights or hang sound equipment; those are jobs that union guys do, and your doing something like that could take the gig from a union member. In that case, a "fee" doesn't seem unreasonable.

But taking pictures?

I think not...

i think their angle is that 'hey - someone could be making money by being involved in an activity which we have control over. i want some of that money.' not that it's job loss, per se.

i agree it's ridiculous, but there's nothing i can do about it. someone i know passed on a somewhat similar story, again involving a club in new york.

One of the times that Guided by Voices played the Bowery Ballroom, our filmmaker friend wanted to film Doug during soundcheck. In that particular case, due to NYC Ordinance, he was told he'd have to play a fee of a certain ungodly amount (maybe $200 or so).

Ahh! It's the Teamsters, and it's NYC. There you go, and there is your problem, T. I wasn't allowed to shoot in the Apollo Theater proper, due to the union. No fee was mentioned (just that I could not shoot), but it's coming back to me now.

[Screamer]

i think their angle is that 'hey - someone could be making money by being involved in an activity which we have control over. i want some of that money.' not that it's job loss, per se.

i agree it's ridiculous, but there's nothing i can do about it. someone i know passed on a somewhat similar story, again involving a club in new york.

I wonder if situations like that might be worthwhile for the ASMP to get involved. It seems like, although a corner case, something like this should be nuked hard to set a precedent.

[Steve Parr]

i think their angle is that 'hey - someone could be making money by being involved in an activity which we have control over. i want some of that money.' not that it's job loss, per se.

i agree it's ridiculous, but there's nothing i can do about it. someone i know passed on a somewhat similar story, again involving a club in new york.

There can be a number of different unions in one venue. Electricians, stage hands, ushers, etc. Who would the money be paid to?

I dunno', it sounds fishy as Hell to me. If they insist it'll be a money-making venture for you, ask them how much they would expect you to make. Then, offer them a percentage of the amount you make. If they accept, and you make nothing, they get paid nothing.

The beauty of it is that they will have agreed to it!

[narlus]

just talked to a friend of mine who lives in NYC and makes his living as a photographer...he said it's totally a union thing, and they don't care how much you *may* make, they just want a flat fee (and you are right, apparently it's split among the unions in the building). he shot mark messier for an SI cover @ madison square garden (union bldg) a few years ago and SI had to fork over $8K for the right to shoot in the building.

[Screamer]

There can be a number of different unions in one venue. Electricians, stage hands, ushers, etc. Who would the money be paid to?

I dunno', it sounds fishy as Hell to me. If they insist it'll be a money-making venture for you, ask them how much they would expect you to make. Then, offer them a percentage of the amount you make. If they accept, and you make nothing, they get paid nothing.

The beauty of it is that they will have agreed to it!

Hell, They are making money by being there. Ask for your cut of their income. :)