Copyright Infringement - Suing a Client???

[zembu]

Hello,

If anyone has any insight on this, I would appreciate it more than you could imagine.

Basically, I wanted to know what legal rights, if any, I have as a photographer with NO copyright? Can I still sue a client for cropping up my work, even when I repeatedly asked him not to? He also posted this altered photo online and gave me no credit for the photo. This is not the first time he has done this. I did a promo shoot (first and last) for his band last month. I gave them proofs. He took 8 of the proofs. He edited them w/ out my consent. Posted them online. And gave me no credit. This was in June. I told him to take them down, he reluctantly did.
Yet, last week, he did it again.

When it happened the first time, I made it undeniably clear NOT to alter my work again, w/ out my consent. Yet here it is, July and once again, I see another one of my photos on his site, cropped up, and uncredited. What can I do??!! He is challenging me (trust me, he is) and he doesn't take photographers seriously. He is defiant and this is all a game to him. I want to sue him so bad to set him straight. But do you need a copyright to take matters to that level? If so, what if I were to get a copyright RIGHT NOW, can/will it apply to past work? Then would I be able to sue him?


P.S. It was a full-body group shot, he cropped it down to just his face. So, my "PHOTO BY CKSFOTO.COM" (8pt font + 50% Opacity, see I'm modest, lol.) in the upper-right hand corner has been completely removed as well.

[cosworth]

I have no advice other than to never work with him again.

Copyright rules vary so much by region I won't (can't) speculate.

[RossW]

Unless you have a contract/agreement with him that gives him full or limited rights to duplicate the image -- unlikely, given your anger at him -- you still have your copyright. It exists from the moment you create the photo, automatically. Registering the image with the copyright office can help prove your case, or establish a timeframe, but it isn't required. You took the image, it's yours... no notice, no registration, etc. is mandatory.

[fivefish]

Send him an invoice for the going rate for use of your photos online.

[zembu]

I have no advice other than to never work with him again...

Yeah, tell me about it. I've never had such a defiant client, I usually do portraits and weddings, not to say that that's any easier though. :lol:



Unless you have a contract/agreement with him that gives him full or limited rights to duplicate the image -- unlikely, given your anger at him -- you still have your copyright. It exists from the moment you create the photo, automatically. Registering the image with the copyright office can help prove your case, or establish a timeframe, but it isn't required. You took the image, it's yours... no notice, no registration, etc. is mandatory.

Thanks Ross. See, I remember reading something like that somewhere on this forum before, which is exactly why I asked. And there was definitely no such contract/agreement. (The only contract that was signed was one that stated they will NOT alter my work. But, that was only signed by one member [not him] and his signature was representational of the band as a whole, so I'm not sure how valid that is.)

I've never prosecuted a client, not even remotely close to having done so. Do you (or anyone else) have any advice on what to do next? As in, what office I need to go to take care of the issue? And who I should be talking to?

Thanks in advance!

[zembu]

Send him an invoice for the going rate for use of your photos online.

Indeed an option, lol.

I'd rather sue though. I have no interest in accommodating his needs/wants at this point.

[fivefish]

>It was a full-body group shot, he cropped it down to just his face.
>I'd rather sue though.

I understand. Just make sure it doesn't bite you back in the long run.

If word goes around that "don't use this photographer... he sues his clients", it could hurt your reputation/business. (Regardless whether you had every right to do so.)

Ask yourself, "Is it really that big of a deal?"

Personally, if I were you... I'd wait until they're famous and making money then sue them. :) But what are the chances of that?

[Mark_Cohran]

I've never prosecuted a client, not even remotely close to having done so. Do you (or anyone else) have any advice on what to do next? As in, what office I need to go to take care of the issue? And who I should be talking to?

Thanks in advance!

This is a photography forum, and while the answer you were given about copyright ensuing at the moment of the photo's creation is absolutely correct, you need to be talking to a lawyer, not to an online forum. We can't give you legal advice, and if we did, and you followed it, we could then become liable.

You're best bet is to seek professional legal advice. Good luck, though.

Mark

[98photo]

I'd seek legal advice on this, maybe if you just scare him with legal representation it will help your situation. Also did he pay for the images?

[RossW]

Ditto on the advice to seek professional legal help if you want to go after him. Perhaps you can make him see your side of it if you asked him how he'd react if you had the band's music playing on your web site, or offered it for download, without crediting them, or getting permission in the first place. Or altered the music to something awful beforehand. (Not that I'm suggesting you would do such a thing in blatent violation of their copyrights.)

[zembu]

>It was a full-body group shot, he cropped it down to just his face.
>I'd rather sue though.

I understand. Just make sure it doesn't bite you back in the long run.

If word goes around that "don't use this photographer... he sues his clients", it could hurt your reputation/business. (Regardless whether you had every right to do so.)

Ask yourself, "Is it really that big of a deal?"

Personally, if I were you... I'd wait until they're famous and making money then sue them. :) But what are the chances of that?

I doubt they will become famous, although you never know, I could be wrong! Funny comment though, lol.

I know when someone says, "I'm wanna' sue that person!" It tends to sound irate. But, there is a lot of back story to this. The consequence of being labeled as the "Photographer That Sues His Clients" is, of course, the last thing I want. But, enough is enough and I no longer feel that being passive is the answer, although I just may shrug this off in the end. I don't want to go into too much boring detail but basically: He does not take me seriously.

I've already given him a notice/warning regarding the first time he did this. I also had the band sign a contract; stating they wouldn't do it again. However, after that warning, he blatantly did it again. The cropping itself is not a big deal, but his continued disrespect and defiance towards me and my work is. This has become more of a moral/ethical issue for me, in terms of how he is treating/representing my work, as well as me, as a serious photographer.

(Again, there is more back story (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=189396) to this, feel free to read it if you have coffee at hand
or if "looking busy" would prove useful to you at the moment, lol.)

Thanks for your input fivefish, twas' much appreciated. :)




This is a photography forum, and while the answer you were given about copyright ensuing at the moment of the photo's creation is absolutely correct, you need to be talking to a lawyer, not to an online forum. We can't give you legal advice, and if we did, and you followed it, we could then become liable.

You're best bet is to seek professional legal advice. Good luck, though.

Mark

You're absolutely right Mark. I just got off the phone with the United States Copyright Office
and the representative basically said the same thing. And that was to talk to an attorney.

I guess I got too caught up in finding quick advice, the fact that it could hurt you guys because of liability
totally slipped my mind. I am still very new to the legal aspects of photography. Apologies.

Thanks Mark.



I'd seek legal advice on this, maybe if you just scare him with legal representation it will help your situation. Also did he pay for the images?

Hey 98photo,

You actually critiqued photos from this shoot. Unsurprisingly, they are indeed still giving me problems. :lol:
But, you can find the package details in that thread: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=189396
Thanks again for critiquing those.

Anyways. You have a good point about using legal representation merely as a scare tactic, rather than a full-on prosecution. Being that this issue is not THAT serious, that might be a better way to go after all.

[zembu]

Ditto on the advice to seek professional legal help if you want to go after him. Perhaps you can make him see your side of it if you asked him how he'd react if you had the band's music playing on your web site, or offered it for download, without crediting them, or getting permission in the first place. Or altered the music to something awful beforehand. (Not that I'm suggesting you would do such a thing in blatent violation of their copyrights.)

I'm definitely taking the professional legal advice route at this point.

LOL, at that last part. Not that I would ever do it, you're right. But yeah, the "put yourself in my shoes" approach can definitely be effective. I use it on my girlfriend all the time, jk lol, she's great. But in all seriousness, I really like some of those comparisons you made. Clever. Thanks.

[fivefish]

Do they have a CD released ? How about posting one of their music on a website! :)

And if he complains to you, you can say "It's just a snippet from your lousy CD, it's not even the whole CD! "

That would cause him to re-evaluate his stupid thinking about copyrights and who owns what! heheheh..

ok, just kidding... don't do the above stuff.

[mizuno]

Name and shame the band.

[PAS Photography]

I found this little piece of info on the web and I send to ANY and ALL copyright infringers upon finding out of their actions. This is a scare tactic but very true. You can then follow up with actial copyright infringement info from their actual website along with a notorized certified mail letter with signature of receipt that they received it. For something youve done as promo I dont think Id take it to the extremes but limit your images being given out to low res so that they arent able to modify or crop them.


Copyright Infringement Mistakes “YOU” don’t want to make...

Mistake #1

Thinking that the worst thing that can happen to you if you "steal" an image is that you can be forced to pay what you would have had to pay anyway...

Think again. Copyright laws provide for statutory penalties of up to $150,000 per infringement. "Borrow" a picture that you should have paid $20 for? Who's gonna know, right? Somebody "catches" you, you pony up the $20 bucks, right? Nope. You have "infringed" a legal copyright, and THAT's what they're going to come after you for: $150,000.

Mistake #2

Thinking, hey, let THEM prove I DIDN'T pay for the picture.

"Intellectual Property" issues are different from a lot of things in the rest of the world. ("Intellectual Property" is how the law describes things like books, poems, symphonies and...photos.) In the rest of the world, if somebody thinks you stole something, they have to prove you did. In the world of "copyright infringement", you have to prove that you DIDN'T. Yep. Let's say, for example, that someone sees one of their pictures used on your website. They can prove that it is, indeed, their picture. They own the copyright on it. They can make a demand that you prove that you have legally acquired the right to use the picture. If you can't prove it (usually in the form of a paid invoice) you're in big trouble. Very big. (See "Incredibly painful mistake #1", above.)

Mistake #3

Thinking to yourself, "Hey, I'll just use Photoshop™ to remove all these pesky little copyright identifiers on this picture. Who's gonna know?"

"Watermarking" involves digitally embedding into an image a symbol that identifies the copyright holder.
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 makes it a criminal offense to remove watermarks meant to protect copyright. Many people don't realize that under US copyright law, it is specifically illegal to remove a watermark from a photo. Not only is the act of removal prohibited, the courts assume that the very attempt indicates a willful intent to violate somebody's copyright. And that's something the courts come down really hard on. [See "Incredibly Painful Mistakes" numbers 1 & 2, above]

Mistake #4

Thinking, hey, I'm too "small potatoes" for anyone to care.

To the contrary. The Internal Revenue Service figured this out a long time ago, which is why they focus on the "small" cheaters, not the big ones: There are a lot more "small fry" than there are "big cheeses", and the message you send when you attend to the smaller entities is a powerful "word of mouth" engine. If you're doing a little out-of-the-way website or a local-distribution brochure and thinking you'll just appropriate a few images because, after all, who's going to care... guess what? You are smack in the bull's-eye, exactly the "profile" that is being targeted. So, if you have larceny in your heart, think twice...!
$150,000.00 FINE ! (That's once.) One hundred and fifty thousand dollar FINE ! (That's twice.)

These are actual copyright laws any lawyer will be able to explain if you choose to violate a Copyright !!!

[elTwitcho]

Saw your shots, they're pretty good. I liked them anyway, and christ for 40 dollars I'm amazed anyone would have the nerve to complain about it. But then, it's interesting that someone would complain and then use the photos on their myspace profile...

It sounds to me like they're just dicks. It will feel good to go after them legally I'm sure, but after awhile you're probably going to realize you're still stressed out and can't move on because now you have a legal battle that's costing you time and money. If I were you, I would just move on and acknowledge that eventually you'll be less pissed off and happy for having gotten on with your life. Don't get me wrong, I too would be extremely frustrated at the way these guys are behaving, but you've got some good photos man. Focus on the photography, get other clients, really enjoy yourself and **** those guys. If anything, they just burned a bridge big time and next time they need promo shots they're going to be paying 10 times more at minimum, so I'm sure they'll regret the way they handled things.

[IndyJeff]

The first question an IP attorney will ask is...Did you register the images? If you did, plan on a longer conversation. If not, well don't go spending any of the settlement money just yet.

[zembu]

Do they have a CD released ? How about posting one of their music on a website! :)

And if he complains to you, you can say "It's just a snippet from your lousy CD, it's not even the whole CD! "

That would cause him to re-evaluate his stupid thinking about copyrights and who owns what! heheheh..

ok, just kidding... don't do the above stuff.

r o f l .
That is seriously classic.




Name and shame the band.

Hi Mizuno.
Oh, if I got a dollar for everytime that thought crossed my mind. :lol:




I found this little piece of info on the web and I send to ANY and ALL copyright infringers upon finding out of their actions. This is a scare tactic but very true. You can then follow up with actial copyright infringement info from their actual website along with a notorized certified mail letter with signature of receipt that they received it. For something youve done as promo I dont think Id take it to the extremes but limit your images being given out to low res so that they arent able to modify or crop them.


Copyright Infringement Mistakes “YOU” don’t want to make...

Mistake #1

Thinking that the worst thing that can happen to you if you "steal" an image is that you can be forced to pay what you would have had to pay anyway...

Think again. Copyright laws provide for statutory penalties of up to $150,000 per infringement. "Borrow" a picture that you should have paid $20 for? Who's gonna know, right? Somebody "catches" you, you pony up the $20 bucks, right? Nope. You have "infringed" a legal copyright, and THAT's what they're going to come after you for: $150,000.

Mistake #2

Thinking, hey, let THEM prove I DIDN'T pay for the picture.

"Intellectual Property" issues are different from a lot of things in the rest of the world. ("Intellectual Property" is how the law describes things like books, poems, symphonies and...photos.) In the rest of the world, if somebody thinks you stole something, they have to prove you did. In the world of "copyright infringement", you have to prove that you DIDN'T. Yep. Let's say, for example, that someone sees one of their pictures used on your website. They can prove that it is, indeed, their picture. They own the copyright on it. They can make a demand that you prove that you have legally acquired the right to use the picture. If you can't prove it (usually in the form of a paid invoice) you're in big trouble. Very big. (See "Incredibly painful mistake #1", above.)

Mistake #3

Thinking to yourself, "Hey, I'll just use Photoshop™ to remove all these pesky little copyright identifiers on this picture. Who's gonna know?"

"Watermarking" involves digitally embedding into an image a symbol that identifies the copyright holder.
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 makes it a criminal offense to remove watermarks meant to protect copyright. Many people don't realize that under US copyright law, it is specifically illegal to remove a watermark from a photo. Not only is the act of removal prohibited, the courts assume that the very attempt indicates a willful intent to violate somebody's copyright. And that's something the courts come down really hard on. [See "Incredibly Painful Mistakes" numbers 1 & 2, above]

Mistake #4

Thinking, hey, I'm too "small potatoes" for anyone to care.

To the contrary. The Internal Revenue Service figured this out a long time ago, which is why they focus on the "small" cheaters, not the big ones: There are a lot more "small fry" than there are "big cheeses", and the message you send when you attend to the smaller entities is a powerful "word of mouth" engine. If you're doing a little out-of-the-way website or a local-distribution brochure and thinking you'll just appropriate a few images because, after all, who's going to care... guess what? You are smack in the bull's-eye, exactly the "profile" that is being targeted. So, if you have larceny in your heart, think twice...!
$150,000.00 FINE ! (That's once.) One hundred and fifty thousand dollar FINE ! (That's twice.)

These are actual copyright laws any lawyer will be able to explain if you choose to violate a Copyright !!!

WOW. Very interesting read. Thank you for posting that.

I can easily see how that would intimidate most unsuspecting violators, it's a pretty effective-sounding scare tactic. I found the watermark bit especially interesting and very useful, thanks. I think it's time I start embedding them into my images. I've seen the option in PS CS2, but have never taken the time to look into it. I loved the "small fry" vs. "big cheese" metaphor, lol. Good stuff, thanks again PAS Photography.

[zembu]

Saw your shots, they're pretty good. I liked them anyway, and christ for 40 dollars I'm amazed anyone would have the nerve to complain about it. But then, it's interesting that someone would complain and then use the photos on their myspace profile...

It sounds to me like they're just dicks. It will feel good to go after them legally I'm sure, but after awhile you're probably going to realize you're still stressed out and can't move on because now you have a legal battle that's costing you time and money. If I were you, I would just move on and acknowledge that eventually you'll be less pissed off and happy for having gotten on with your life. Don't get me wrong, I too would be extremely frustrated at the way these guys are behaving, but you've got some good photos man. Focus on the photography, get other clients, really enjoy yourself and **** those guys. If anything, they just burned a bridge big time and next time they need promo shots they're going to be paying 10 times more at minimum, so I'm sure they'll regret the way they handled things.

Your words are really motivating. Thanks elTwitcho.

You took the words right out of my mouth when you said,
"...it's interesting that someone would complain and then use the photos on their myspace profile...
I literally said the same thing when I saw my edited versions on the band's MySpace profile. Even though they had told me they looked so bad the day before, lol. Not to mention that every comment my versions received on their MySpace were positive.

Anyways, thanks for complimenting my work and for your advice as well. I really am considering just to take things lightly at this point, and let this one roll off my back. I figure, Fall Semester will be starting soon and the thought of bouncing between a legal battle and hours of studying doesn't exactly sound like a humble cup of tea. Like you said, I need to focus on the photography and continue to push forward. You're right though, chance are I will feel a better man in the long run for walking away from this one.

Thanks again man.


The first question an IP attorney will ask is...Did you register the images? If you did, plan on a longer conversation. If not, well don't go spending any of the settlement money just yet.

Makes sense. After talking to the United States Copyright Office, I was told that it would take 6 months for my copyright registration to process.
I'm just going to wait for that, and unless violations continue to arise, I do not plan to take action at this point.

[ACDCROCKS]

My boss has the same problem, people copying his work,and so do I. As soon as you take the picture, you own ther copyright. I gound a 3 paragraph stating copyrights. You can sue him, stating you have solid proof he cant use your photos online, and has used your photos illegally, the thing is will it hurt your buisness and is it worth your time?
I found this on a site a while back

"Copyrights and Usage
As copyright holders, photographers have the right to control copying, reproduction, distribution, display and derivative works of their photographs. Usage rights not specifically licensed to you or your firm remain with the photographer. Physical possession of photographic material, such as slides, prints, transparencies or digital files, does not grant the right to reproduce the images. Without specific permission from the photographer, it is a violation of Federal copyright law to reproduce photographs in any form, including color copying and scanning. Therefore, it is important to arrange licensing for the full scope of usage you require. Under the 1976 Federal Copyright Act and the Bern International Copyright Agreement, photographs automatically receive copyright protection even though a copyright notice is not displayed. Absence of the copyright notice does not relieve the prospective user from the responsibility of obtaining permission from the copyright holder. Licensing agreements should be in writing. To protect everyone's interests and prevent misunderstandings, all parties involved with the photography may be asked to sign a copyright agreement.
Architectural Photography -Who can use the Images?
The photographs can be used by those licensed in the agreement. If a number of commissioning clients share in the cost of an assignment be sure each party clearly understands the agreement and the usage rights granted. If you plan to give the photographs to others who were not involved in the assignment, or if you have received photographs without written permission for their use, remember only the photographer can license rights. Copyrights and usage rights cannot be transferred by the client, except with consent of the copyright holder. To avoid misunderstandings, either contact the photographer before passing the photographs along to colleagues, suppliers and publishers or have them contact the photographer directly. Members of the design team, contractors, product manufacturers, clients, tenants, magazine editors and other third parties must arrange for the rights to use the images with the photographer.
Keep in Mind
Under Federal copyright law, the photographer owns the copyright to the images and licenses specific usage rights to clients by written agreement. Typically, the more extensive the planned usage, the greater the photographer's fee. Prior to photography, negotiate a few based on what you need now, with the understanding that additional rights and related fees can be arranged in the future. This avoids the unnecessary expense of purchasing rights you may never use. To make planning easier, you and photographer may want to develop a fee schedule for future use."
-unknown

[amonline]

I put this in the other thread... but wasn't sure you'd see it...

FWIW, it looks like all the pages I could find were pulled for some reason... I had to dig into the Google cached side... it'd be a major coincedense that they all be editing them at the same time. Did you happen to contact My Space about them using your copyrighted work? My Space HIGHLY frowns on copyright infringement and will delete their pages in seconds if you prove your side. (it's part of the TOS) Judging by the pool of followers they have, I'd keep that "sue 'em later" idea around. :)

[stjhie]

So sorry to hear that. Are you paid anyway? If yeah, maybe try to forget about the matter. take this as a lesson and get a proper contract next time. You would not like bad gossips spreading around between clients also right.

[Steve Parr]

There was an instance where I was prepared to go after a client, after they used the photos (which they paid for), but in a manner which was not agreed upon, and which also contained heavy editing.

It would've been pricey (but cheaper than a lawyer), but I was prepared to take out a half-page ad in both the San Diego Union-Tribune and the San Diego Reader. In that "ad", I was going to name the band (individual members), explain what transpired, explain what was agreed upon and what was done, including my attempts to rectify the situation.

It would've been done with an eye to anyone in the local music industry to, at the very least, be wary of dealing with these people. I showed a copy of the ad content to the band, and they relented. It would've been damn near impossible for them to get decent gigs in this town, as there isn't a bar owner or promoter who doesn't read one of the two publications.

I explained to them that I did not want to take the ad out, and that I didn't want more money. I simply wanted them to adhered to the terms that were previously agreed upon.

I told them they had one hour to decide what to do, and six hours to make the required changes. If they failed to do so, I could still make the deadlines at both newspapers.

They did what I expected them to do, and they made the necessary changes.

A friend of mine, who's an attorney, told me I could've had some legal problems had I taken the ads out, but I wasn't exactly dealing with Rhodes Scholars. I was dealing with knuckle-draggin' mouth-breathers who thought they were God's gift to the music industry. I figured my odds of not being sued were pretty good.

Whatever you do, do not get emotional about it. Conduct yourself in a very business-like manner. People hate that...

[TeeJay]

Sorry to jump in at the end, but I haven't had time to read the entire thread, so sorry if someone's already mentioned this....

I would suggest you approach the person who owns the web-space. Hinting that THEY are also infringing on copyright laws should make them pull the pictures pretty sharpish.

OK, if they are being used elsewhere, that's another issue - but the larger guys (i.e. the service providers) also have a legal obligation which they shouldn't take lightly, which also means you may get acted on more quickly.

TJ

[Zilly]

i would offer him the oppertunity to pay the going rate of using images on the internet x10 if he refuses then stop communitcations and let the lawers loose on him.jmho

[zembu]

My boss has the same problem, people copying his work,and so do I. As soon as you take the picture, you own ther copyright. I gound a 3 paragraph stating copyrights. You can sue him, stating you have solid proof he cant use your photos online, and has used your photos illegally, the thing is will it hurt your buisness and is it worth your time?
I found this on a site a while back

"Copyrights and Usage
As copyright holders, photographers have the right to control copying, reproduction, distribution, display and derivative works of their photographs. Usage rights not specifically licensed to you or your firm remain with the photographer. Physical possession of photographic material, such as slides, prints, transparencies or digital files, does not grant the right to reproduce the images. Without specific permission from the photographer, it is a violation of Federal copyright law to reproduce photographs in any form, including color copying and scanning. Therefore, it is important to arrange licensing for the full scope of usage you require. Under the 1976 Federal Copyright Act and the Bern International Copyright Agreement, photographs automatically receive copyright protection even though a copyright notice is not displayed. Absence of the copyright notice does not relieve the prospective user from the responsibility of obtaining permission from the copyright holder. Licensing agreements should be in writing. To protect everyone's interests and prevent misunderstandings, all parties involved with the photography may be asked to sign a copyright agreement.
Architectural Photography -Who can use the Images?
The photographs can be used by those licensed in the agreement. If a number of commissioning clients share in the cost of an assignment be sure each party clearly understands the agreement and the usage rights granted. If you plan to give the photographs to others who were not involved in the assignment, or if you have received photographs without written permission for their use, remember only the photographer can license rights. Copyrights and usage rights cannot be transferred by the client, except with consent of the copyright holder. To avoid misunderstandings, either contact the photographer before passing the photographs along to colleagues, suppliers and publishers or have them contact the photographer directly. Members of the design team, contractors, product manufacturers, clients, tenants, magazine editors and other third parties must arrange for the rights to use the images with the photographer.
Keep in Mind
Under Federal copyright law, the photographer owns the copyright to the images and licenses specific usage rights to clients by written agreement. Typically, the more extensive the planned usage, the greater the photographer's fee. Prior to photography, negotiate a few based on what you need now, with the understanding that additional rights and related fees can be arranged in the future. This avoids the unnecessary expense of purchasing rights you may never use. To make planning easier, you and photographer may want to develop a fee schedule for future use."
-unknown

I'm sorry to hear about you and your boss having to face the same issue, must be a pain. The scenario with this particular client is that I gave them a CD with 30 edited images, I said that web use would in fact, be fine. What I didn't say was fine, was playing around with them (and my proofs, which they also received), editing them, cropping them up, taking my name out, and posting them online, uncredited. So while I said web use would be okay, I never said/wrote anything about altering them, which would fall under the "illegal use of photos" category you mentioned.

I appreciate you posting that informative snippet, especially the "Copyrights and Usage" section. I've given this issue much thought over the last couple days and at this point, I've decided I don't want to hurt my reputation by going to the extent of suing a client. I hope to never have to actually do so either. Not to say that I am going to be a sitting duck and take shots to the head, lol. Rest assured, if a client blatantly presses enough red buttons with total disregard, I will indeed, take action.

But, thank you again for sharing that ACDCROCKS.
I definitely learned a thing or two.




I put this in the other thread... but wasn't sure you'd see it...

FWIW, it looks like all the pages I could find were pulled for some reason... I had to dig into the Google cached side... it'd be a major coincedense that they all be editing them at the same time. Did you happen to contact My Space about them using your copyrighted work? My Space HIGHLY frowns on copyright infringement and will delete their pages in seconds if you prove your side. (it's part of the TOS) Judging by the pool of followers they have, I'd keep that "sue 'em later" idea around. :)

Hahaha! Nah man, that was a total coincidence. I saw that too. I wish I was the reason for that. I checked this morning and all of their profiles are back up, looks like it was just routine maintenance. But, you know what? You do make a very good point about contacting MySpace directly and notifying them of the infringed content. Thanks for the idea amonline, that may just be all I need to do in this case.




So sorry to hear that. Are you paid anyway? If yeah, maybe try to forget about the matter. take this as a lesson and get a proper contract next time. You would not like bad gossips spreading around between clients also right.

Thanks stjhie. Yes, I'm paid. I basically shot this band for free though. One member was a friend of mine. Key word, was, lol. It was my first promo shoot and I've definitely learned a number of lessons from the experience. It was after this band, that I started doing written contracts.

Yeah, bad gossip doesn't sound too fun.




There was an instance where I was prepared to go after a client, after they used the photos (which they paid for), but in a manner which was not agreed upon, and which also contained heavy editing.

It would've been pricey (but cheaper than a lawyer), but I was prepared to take out a half-page ad in both the San Diego Union-Tribune and the San Diego Reader. In that "ad", I was going to name the band (individual members), explain what transpired, explain what was agreed upon and what was done, including my attempts to rectify the situation.

It would've been done with an eye to anyone in the local music industry to, at the very least, be wary of dealing with these people. I showed a copy of the ad content to the band, and they relented. It would've been damn near impossible for them to get decent gigs in this town, as there isn't a bar owner or promoter who doesn't read one of the two publications.

I explained to them that I did not want to take the ad out, and that I didn't want more money. I simply wanted them to adhered to the terms that were previously agreed upon.

I told them they had one hour to decide what to do, and six hours to make the required changes. If they failed to do so, I could still make the deadlines at both newspapers.

They did what I expected them to do, and they made the necessary changes.

A friend of mine, who's an attorney, told me I could've had some legal problems had I taken the ads out, but I wasn't exactly dealing with Rhodes Scholars. I was dealing with knuckle-draggin' mouth-breathers who thought they were God's gift to the music industry. I figured my odds of not being sued were pretty good.

Whatever you do, do not get emotional about it. Conduct yourself in a very business-like manner. People hate that...

Hey Steve,

Great story, lol. If you didn't already notice, I'm also from San Diego. It's always nice meeting a local. I often pick up The Reader from 7-11, so I may have even seen the advertisement you spoke of. Well anyways, this is sounds like a pretty similar situation you described here. And it looks like you handled the conflict pretty well. I like the way you ended up getting what you wanted without paying big bucks for a lawyer. I am doing my best to keep emotions out of it and remain professional about this. Just reading everyone's input makes me feel ten times better anyhow.

Do you work at the San Diego Union-Tribune? Is that how you were able to take such control over the ad's content, or is that something anyone could have done if they paid for that ad-space in the paper? I'm sure there are more details to this, but I found your solution to be amusingly clever, being that I know how hard it can be to get through the heads of those that are "God's Gift to the Music Industry" so to speak, lol.




Sorry to jump in at the end, but I haven't had time to read the entire thread, so sorry if someone's already mentioned this....

I would suggest you approach the person who owns the web-space. Hinting that THEY are also infringing on copyright laws should make them pull the pictures pretty sharpish.

OK, if they are being used elsewhere, that's another issue - but the larger guys (i.e. the service providers) also have a legal obligation which they shouldn't take lightly, which also means you may get acted on more quickly.

TJ

Hi TeeJay, yes this is good advice in my opinion, because it directs attention to the service provider, which involves their own set of rules and regulations. Several of which, this band has already violated. This was briefly mentioned earlier, but I don't mind hearing it again, it's true. They are indeed, using MySpace as their web-space, which I know is in particularly stern about their TOS and the band's actions could very well get their profiles poofed into deletion.

I'm working on it as we speak.




i would offer him the oppertunity to pay the going rate of using images on the internet x10 if he refuses then stop communitcations and let the lawers loose on him.jmho

He would more than likely refuse, not to mention probably post even more of my work as revenge for even asking such, just like he has already done once. I think the only way I would let the lawyers loose on him is if I were moving to another city so that reputation would not be a factor, if I had plenty of lawyer-money to spare, and a lot of free time on my hands.

Trust me though, I would love to.

[Zilly]

right its on my space. I know that myspace has a system for this check out the contact my space link at the bottom of the page. im sure thell help out

[amonline]

Hahaha! Nah man, that was a total coincidence. I saw that too. I wish I was the reason for that. I checked this morning and all of their profiles are back up, looks like it was just routine maintenance. But, you know what? You do make a very good point about contacting MySpace directly and notifying them of the infringed content. Thanks for the idea amonline, that may just be all I need to do in this case.

Your welcome... and yes, it'll probably get pulled. They are extremely strict about copyrighted material being used on artist's accounts. The artist must agree to a copyright agreement regarding anything posted. (mainly music) But the downside for the artist that breaks the rule is complete deletion w/o warning. They get a nice little email letting them know why they were bumped. I would hope that goes for the personal profiles as well. I am both an artist (musician) and photographer and I feel your pain. I say - take 'em down! They'd be the first to bitch about someone doing with their music... simply return the favor. ;)

[johncockburn]

I have been caught like this in the past, but now if I give anyone (and I mean anyone, even friends and family) a CD of images I seal the case closed with a label that says "By breaking this seal I agree to the terms and conditions specified on the rear of this CD/DVD case"
The back of the case has a full copy of my terms and conditions for use, including at the very top a copyright notice.

I know it looks like overkill but it sorts a lot of problems out before they start if people realise you are serious about what you do.

Good luck.

John

[Steve Parr]

Do you work at the San Diego Union-Tribune? Is that how you were able to take such control over the ad's content, or is that something anyone could have done if they paid for that ad-space in the paper? I'm sure there are more details to this, but I found your solution to be amusingly clever, being that I know how hard it can be to get through the heads of those that are "God's Gift to the Music Industry" so to speak, lol.

I didn't notice you were in San Diego.

No, I don't work at the UT, but an ad is an ad. As long as I'm not fabricating things about them, it's good to go (that came from a friend who does work at the UT). If they want to take issue with it, it has to be done after it's been published in the paper. At that point, the damage to them is done.

As for the Reader, well, you can put anything you want in there; I don't think they don't really care...

[zembu]

right its on my space. I know that myspace has a system for this check out the contact my space link at the bottom of the page. im sure thell help out

Yup, you got it. Thanks for your input Zilly! :)





Your welcome... and yes, it'll probably get pulled. They are extremely strict about copyrighted material being used on artist's accounts. The artist must agree to a copyright agreement regarding anything posted. (mainly music) But the downside for the artist that breaks the rule is complete deletion w/o warning. They get a nice little email letting them know why they were bumped. I would hope that goes for the personal profiles as well. I am both an artist (musician) and photographer and I feel your pain. I say - take 'em down! They'd be the first to bitch about someone doing with their music... simply return the favor. ;)

Hey amonline. I appreciate the empathy. Yeah, I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. Thanks again for your input, because MySpace pulled those pictures down in 2 hours flat. I kid you not. All I had to do was answer six questions, provide proof of ownership, and that was it. They were down.

MySpace wrote back to me explaining that they had deleted all of their profiles as well, although they were still up when I checked. Only the pictures I reported were deleted, not their entire profiles. Which is fine by me, I'm not trying to dictate who gets to use MySpace, lol. I just want to make sure my work remains.. my work. At least to the best of my abilities.

I'm glad you checked out this thread, because your advice worked in the end.
Thanks again man.





I have been caught like this in the past, but now if I give anyone (and I mean anyone, even friends and family) a CD of images I seal the case closed with a label that says "By breaking this seal I agree to the terms and conditions specified on the rear of this CD/DVD case"
The back of the case has a full copy of my terms and conditions for use, including at the very top a copyright notice.

I know it looks like overkill but it sorts a lot of problems out before they start if people realise you are serious about what you do.

Good luck.

John

That's actually a pretty good idea John, haha. I know if I were a client, it would make me think twice before opening it like a child on Christmas. Watch out for fishy clients that may try to open it from the binding-end. It's actually quite easy with the plastic cases, just a thought. Unless of course, you seal that side too, hehe. ;)





I didn't notice you were in San Diego.

No, I don't work at the UT, but an ad is an ad. As long as I'm not fabricating things about them, it's good to go (that came from a friend who does work at the UT). If they want to take issue with it, it has to be done after it's been published in the paper. At that point, the damage to them is done.

As for the Reader, well, you can put anything you want in there; I don't think they don't really care...

Yeah, right over by SDSU. :eek:

But, I like what you said about them having to take issue with it after the fact. It's kind of like one of those "choose your own destiny" type decisions for the infringing client. This should be a good tid bit of information to know down the line. I know what you mean about the Reader, it is safe to say that they often take the liberty of journalism to their full advantage, lol. Thanks again Steve.

[zembu]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone that gave insight on this topic.

In case anyone missed it, the issue has been resolved. I contacted the webspace-provider (MySpace.com) about the infringed photos and they were taken down immediately by a "Copyright Agent." This was a simple solution, being that the band was violating the TOS of a multi-million dollar corporation; it didn't take long for appropriate action to take effect. No lawyer was necessary in this case and everything was taken care of within 2 hours of my initial report via email. I'm sure that between all the active users and thousands of lurkers here, someone will find that information useful, lol.

Thanks again to everyone that helped me through this. :)
It made things ten times easier, seriously.

- zembu

[kram]

Very nice way to get this resolved - though you should let the band know that what they were playing with was big - evidenced from the fact that a large corporation took it seriously and pulled it down.

And that they could have been sued for a huge amount for the nonsense they tried pulling off. And that you decided to let them go without a lawsuit this time - unless they tried this ever again.....

[ACDCROCKS]

Hi, I was wondeirn ghow you contact myspace for Copyrighted material? I hit the "report image", but it's still their.
thanks

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone that gave insight on this topic.

In case anyone missed it, the issue has been resolved. I contacted the webspace-provider (MySpace.com) about the infringed photos and they were taken down immediately by a "Copyright Agent." This was a simple solution, being that the band was violating the TOS of a multi-million dollar corporation; it didn't take long for appropriate action to take effect. No lawyer was necessary in this case and everything was taken care of within 2 hours of my initial report via email. I'm sure that between all the active users and thousands of lurkers here, someone will find that information useful, lol.

Thanks again to everyone that helped me through this. :)
It made things ten times easier, seriously.

- zembu

[Steve Parr]

Yeah, right over by SDSU.

But, I like what you said about them having to take issue with it after the fact. It's kind of like one of those "choose your own destiny" type decisions for the infringing client. This should be a good tid bit of information to know down the line. I know what you mean about the Reader, it is safe to say that they often take the liberty of journalism to their full advantage, lol. Thanks again Steve.

No sweat, man; glad to hear that you got it resolved through MySpace. They've probably got to deal with this more times than you can imagine, so they've probably got it down to a science.

SDSU, huh? I used to live over that way. I'm out in the sweltering heat of Santee now...

[amonline]

Hey amonline. I appreciate the empathy. Yeah, I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. Thanks again for your input, because MySpace pulled those pictures down in 2 hours flat. I kid you not. All I had to do was answer six questions, provide proof of ownership, and that was it. They were down.

MySpace wrote back to me explaining that they had deleted all of their profiles as well, although they were still up when I checked. Only the pictures I reported were deleted, not their entire profiles. Which is fine by me, I'm not trying to dictate who gets to use MySpace, lol. I just want to make sure my work remains.. my work. At least to the best of my abilities.

I'm glad you checked out this thread, because your advice worked in the end.
Thanks again man.

You are quite welcome. I believe it was the right thing to do and best solution for all.

[zembu]

Very nice way to get this resolved - though you should let the band know that what they were playing with was big - evidenced from the fact that a large corporation took it seriously and pulled it down.

And that they could have been sued for a huge amount for the nonsense they tried pulling off. And that you decided to let them go without a lawsuit this time - unless they tried this ever again.....

Right on, thanks. Yeah, I informed the band's "representative" about the severity of the sitaution and why the pictures were taken down. They think I am taking matters too seriously. But I'm okay with that, because I know what I did was right, and I got what I wanted in the end.





Hi, I was wondeirn ghow you contact myspace for Copyrighted material? I hit the "report image", but it's still their.
thanks

1. Click on "Terms" (http://www.myspace.com/Modules/Common/Pages/TermsConditions.aspx) at the bottom of any page on MySpace.com

2. Scroll down to Section 9: Copyright Policy

3. There you will find six questions to answer. Question one asks for your signature.
You can simply type it for reports via email. Just make sure you indicate it as your "electronic signature."

4. Send to the following:
Copyright Agent, MySpace.com, Inc.
6060 Center Drive, Suite 300
Los Angeles, CA 90045

Or email: copyrightagent@myspace.com (quicker)

--
That's it!





No sweat, man; glad to hear that you got it resolved through MySpace. They've probably got to deal with this more times than you can imagine, so they've probably got it down to a science.

SDSU, huh? I used to live over that way. I'm out in the sweltering heat of Santee now...

Likewise. They took my report very seriously. So for once, I can honestly say that MySpace has done something good for my life. My girlfriend lives out in Santee, fortunately she has AC, but even then, I end up with soggy sleeves from all the forehead wipes. Okay, t.m.i. sorry. :lol:





You are quite welcome. I believe it was the right thing to do and best solution for all.

Agreed.

Update: Within hours after MySpace took the pictures down, I got a call from one of the band members. Inevitably, he was very upset. And he claimed that I was starting to, "Blow things out of proportion." Wow, lol. Perhaps he is warming up for a potential career in Comedy as well.

[Zilly]

glad you got it sorted mate

[amonline]

Update: Within hours after MySpace took the pictures down, I got a call from one of the band members. Inevitably, he was very upset. And he claimed that I was starting to, "Blow things out of proportion." Wow, lol. Perhaps he is warming up for a potential career in Comedy as well.

Classic! They deserve it. They are simply artists that need to respect other artist's work.

[Hark Photography]

Great Thread, had a few smiles as I face my own significant copyright issues.

picked up a few pointers on here although I believe I am in for a rocky ride with these guys.

starting a new thread.

[Riff Raff]

Hi, I was wondeirn ghow you contact myspace for Copyrighted material? I hit the "report image", but it's still their.

Here's the relevant FAQ:

http://www.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.faq&Category=3&Question=31

Basically anytime you discover one of your copyrighted photos online and you want it taken down, then if the host is in the U.S. you can easily submit a DMCA takedown request for the photo(s) in question. The only difficulty there is figuring out the proper formatting for a DMCA takedown request. Once you send it in, the results (photos being deleted) happen almost immediately. It's actually a bit scary how easy it is to have files removed from the vast majority of servers in the U.S.

[Wilt]

Make some effort now, but if nothing pans out, save the law suit until they are successful and rich and you can have your attorney show that their success is in part attributable to your photo which they usurped without your permission and in spite of your attempts to recover some compensation...nice penalty opportunity

[BIGTUFFGUY]

i would send him the bill for the use of the photo(s). If he choses not to pay then take him to court.