Using manual mode and flash indoors

[Yella Fella]

i have read up on the following link...

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=171657

however... if i stick to iso 100-400 indoors and dial in an aperture of say F4 for normal couple and small group shots. Whats a good recommended shutter for relying purely on flash for lighting? what about for capturing ambient lighting as well?

Or is it more of just experimenting on the day? outdoors is ok, but its the indoor shooting that kills me with all these spot lights in the hall. Got a party to shoot this sat

[René Damkot]

First off, I don't like to use flash as main (only) light: Too much 'deer in the headlights' look IMO. So I'ld use a higher ISO, to get hand holdable shutterspeeds, and use flash for fill.
Apart from that: When your camera is on 'M' the light meter will tell you how much the ambient is contributing to exposure. If you keep the light meter below -2, flash is main light...

[FlashZebra]

i have read up on the following link...

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=171657

however... if i stick to iso 100-400 indoors and dial in an aperture of say F4 for normal couple and small group shots. Whats a good recommended shutter for relying purely on flash for lighting? what about for capturing ambient lighting as well?

Or is it more of just experimenting on the day? outdoors is ok, but its the indoor shooting that kills me with all these spot lights in the hall. Got a party to shoot this sat
If you are in a low ambient light area, and are indeed in manual mode, and relying on the flash to provide almost all of the exposure (make sure this is true, F/4 is a rather large aperture):

Use a shutter speed equal to your maximum shutter sync speed of your particular camera. You can look this speed up in your manual, or just use 1/250 sec for your 20D,

It this situation the shutter speed of your camera does not control the exposure, what controls the exposure is the intensity and duration of the flash burst, which is typically very, very short (compared to a 1/250 second shutter). So, effectively your shutter speed is the length of the flash burst, not the set shutter speed.

Just remember, in this situation, the shutter cannot control the exposure.

Enjoy! Lon

[Curtis N]

If you go on to Chapter 3 of Flash Photography 101, it will give you a few guidelines. If the room isn't huge and you bounce the flash, you can get decent background light from it and avoid the "deer-in-headlights" look.Use a shutter speed equal to your maximum shutter sync speed of your particular camera... in this situation the shutter speed of your camera does not control the exposure, what controls the exposure is the intensity and duration of the flash burstMore specifically, the shutter speed affects the ambient light exposure but not the flash exposure. So using flash sync shutter speed is one way to minimize the ambient light in the image.

If you want to mix in some ambient light, Rene's advice is good. Adjust your exposure settings in M mode, using the meter needle as a guide. But be mindful of your shutter speeds and potential motion blur.

[FlashZebra]

More specifically, the shutter speed affects the ambient light exposure but not the flash exposure. So using flash sync shutter speed is one way to minimize the ambient light in the image.
I am not confused, but I do know how to answer the question that was asked, not an close alternate of my choosing.

My statement you quoted in the post just above this one, was predicated by this declarative statement at the beginning of my post, as such it is accurate and does not need your additional codicil:

"If you are in a low ambient light area, and are indeed in manual mode, and relying on the flash to provide almost all of the exposure (make sure this is true, F/4 is a rather large aperture)".

Also, please recall the OP asked "Whats a good recommended shutter for relying purely on flash for lighting?".

I was focused on answering that question, which is why I quoted his post, not reacting to all the possible nuances of general flash photography.

I crafted my post directly at the OP and their quoted text that prefaced my reply.

If you want to instruct the OP in a more general manner that is fine. But, please do not tee off a perfectly accurate statement of mine; that leaves off my important preface; and is directly focused at the exact question the OP; in a manner that implies that my reply is not quite accurate.

Enjoy! Lon

[jfrancho]

Actually, you answered half of the question. Curtis answered both halves.

[FlashZebra]

Actually, you answered half of the question. Curtis answered both halves.
You cannot ignore this preface to my answer.

"If you are in a low ambient light area, and are indeed in manual mode, and relying on the flash to provide almost all of the exposure (make sure this is true, F/4 is a rather large aperture):

If this situation is not met, then my answer does not apply. How could I have worded that with any more care?

My answer was precise and focused with the exact conditions of application clearly defined. Did you not read “make sure this is true”?

Again, if Curtis N wants to educate in a more general manner, that is great. But, he should not do this in a manner that implies there is something defective about my factually accurate (and practical*), but focused reply.

Enjoy! Lon

* general studio flash photograph is basically built on this concept. You are in a low ambient light environment. The ambient light's contribution is insignificant to the total exposure. So, you ignore the ambient. This is not some odd ball, little used, aspect of general flash photography. It is someting that is of grand utility used in electronic flash based studios everwhere.

I have accomplished tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of flash exposures in a low ambient light studio setting. I have never concerned myself with the exposure contribution of the ambient. My exposures are great.

When it does not matter, well, it does not matter.

[jfrancho]

Give it up, buddy. In the grand scheme of it, you've accomplished nothing but derail a genuine topic in some deranged quest for self importance.

[Yella Fella]

easy guys, i just wanted a bit, well a lot of help on using flash strictly indoors in low light.

Well i have come back, and it was a sort of diaster... i tried Av mode, but even at iso800, i was getting at best 20/30 shutter speed with about -1 dialed in to FEC for the flash. Group shots were a bit harsh as taken on the dance floor and people kept moving to the beat so wouldnt keep still. A lot of motion blur. If switched to manual (still learning) or program, they came out really bright, dark background as expected and pure flash, looks pants.

Guess its back to the drawing board and more research. Ok to say exprience is good... but its even better getting it right for your clients in the first place rather than practicing.

[SkipD]

Ed, you apparently don't yet have a grasp of the basics of flash photography, so I will try to help. All of this was described in the FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY 101 post by Curtis, but maybe different wording can help you understand better.

First - you cannot measure output from a flash lighting source with your camera's meter. All the camera's meter can measure is conventional (non-flash) lighting. Thus, you have no way to determine the aperture setting for a manual flash configuration unless you have a flash meter such as the very popular Sekonic L-358. Merely choosing an aperture setting for a flash exposure depends on pure luck (or a lot of experience or experimentation) to get it right.

Second - The light output duration of an electronic flash source is (with very few exceptions) far shorter (faster) than any shutter shutter speed you can dial into a camera. This makes the shutter speed irrelevant for flash exposure, except for one thing - the fastest shutter speed that you can use with flash sources. The "max sync speed" is the fastest shutter speed on a camera (using a focal plane shutter) that has the shutter fully open to allow the entire frame to be exposed by a flash source. Faster shutter speeds have a portion of the film or sensor covered by the trailing shutter curtain. Longer shutter speeds will make the ambient light levels have more of an effect on your image (this is your basic problem described in your last post, though you didn't understand it).

Third - The light level from flash lighting sources aimed directly at the subject falls off significantly with distance [/U](illustrated very nicely in the FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY 101 article that Curtis wrote). Thus, you will want to bounce your flash off of large surfaces if you want the lighting from your flash to be more uniform at varying distances. This does, of course, require more flash power to accomplish the task.

Taking these basics into consideration.......

If you are using an automated flash such as Canon's EX series of Speedlites, you can often use fully automated exposure control (ETTL and its variations) and get good results. However, if you choose to use manual flash exposure control, don't even try to use any camera exposure setting except the "M" setting. That will let you choose both the aperture and the shutter speed.

If you are using manual exposure controls and want the flash source to be the only significant lighting source for a photo, you should set the shutter speed to the "max sync speed". That will minimize the effect of ambient lighting on your image.

If you have a lot of ambient light and want the flash to be the primary effective lighting source, you may need to get more powerful flash lighting sources such as studio style lighting to overpower the ambient light.

Assuming that you do not have a flash meter and want to use manual settings, you can find the required aperture setting experimentally. Start with ISO 100 and the "max sync" shutter speed. Select an aperture setting based on experience, what you have read, or whatever. Take a test shot. If the shot is overexposed (you can use the histogram to determine this), set the aperture to a higher f-stop number (smaller aperture) and try again. If the shot is underexposed, use a lower f-stop number (larger aperture).

Mixing ambient light and light from a flash source can be done, but it takes a fairly full understanding of metering techniques and a meter that can measure both ambient light and flash sources.

I could go on, but Curtis' FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY 101 post describes the subject very well. If this post helps you understand the basics, then FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY 101, with its illustrations, should then make more sense to you.

[-MasterChief-]

imho, ive been pretty lucky with these settings in low ambient light.

with the 24-70 f2.8L mounted using M mode: 1/40th to 1/70th shutter speed at f4, iso 800, +2/3 on the FEC. if i want to expose more of the background, i use 1/30th.

with ETTL flash metering, the flash takes care of exposing your subjects properly. if the room has a fairly low ceiling, i bounce my flash and get a more "natural" look.

i hope this helps!

[Yella Fella]

Hey Skip,

Cheers for the indepth info. I did read the various threads associated with flash photography but i guess there is a lot ot learn and grasp all at the same time.

Guess i want to get a bit of ambience in but yet have the flash to light up the subjects, though from reading all this info, it seems you have to get it spot on with the metering.

I have a 580EX speedlite, not sure if its in manual or auto... only thing im adjusting is the flash output, dialed in usually -1 or -1 2/3 when im shooting indoors. I have a sekonic L-358 and dont have a clue how to use it (not had chance to read the manual fully yet), but it seems to give out weird readings compared to what it states in my camera. Again something i need to look up on.

[Yella Fella]

on another note with bounce, the hall i was in, the ceiling was pretty high up...

i ended up using my lumiquest pro max with white card, seemed to be ok. But i guess i really have to post some pics up with regards to this

[Curtis N]

i tried Av mode, but even at iso800, i was getting at best 20/30 shutter speed with about -1 dialed in to FEC for the flash.First I want to make sure you realize that your FEC setting will not change the shutter speed you get in Av mode. The camera meters ambient light and flash separately, in completely different ways.

You have to approach every situation and evaluate it carefully, one step at a time.

If you want to get some ambient light in your images, then Av might be a good choice. Set your aperture to something you can live with, then boost your ISO until you get acceptable shutter speeds. If you get to ISO 1600 with your lens wide-open and your shutter speeds are still too slow, then you might need to abandon ambient light and rely completely on the flash. This is not uncommon.

If you do need to rely on flash in a room with a high ceiling, the Lumiquest pocket bouncer (or 80/20 w/ white insert) is often a great tool. It will get the light source further from the lens (to avoid redeye) and make the light source bigger.

[Yella Fella]

thanks curtis...

i think that was the mistake i was making with trying to bring in too much (or little of whats available) ambient lighting.

There is no fixed setting for purely just using flash as illumination is there? bearing in mind, you have the amount of flash power, not to mention the distance between camera and subject. I take it lens length is taken into consideration too?

[corinto]

If the shot is overexposed (you can use the histogram to determine this), set the aperture to a higher f-stop number (smaller aperture) and try again. If the shot is underexposed, use a lower f-stop number (larger aperture).

Though I am not the OP, I want to thank Skip and Curtis for their patience in explaining once more what they have explained innumerable times before. And taking care to do it in different wording.

I think that it is important to add something not readily understood by noobs like myself:

The amount of light (duration of the burst) irradiated by the flash is controlled by the camera via the ETTL mechanics. So, though the amount of flash light will be determinant to the exposure of the main subject, it is the camera that will take care of this (this wording is careful of the issue below).

This is really a question: Skip refers to aperture in reference to overexposure (I understand that he means of main subject). I would think that FEC is the way to compensate for this. Meaning that if aperture is modified, the ETTL will compensate for your modification, thus annuling its effect. Am I wrong?

Again, thanks.

[Curtis N]

There is no fixed setting for purely just using flash as illumination is there? bearing in mind, you have the amount of flash power, not to mention the distance between camera and subject. I take it lens length is taken into consideration too?There is no fixed setting partly because the best aperture depends on what you're shooting, and the distance. Open it up too much, and you may not have enough DOF. Close it down too much, and you may be reducing your flash range to less than your subject distance. Boosting the ISO can solve this problem, but the expense can be digital noise.

Every exposure is a compromise of sorts. But with practice, you'll get a feel for some settings that will work in different situations.

[SkipD]

This is really a question: Skip refers to aperture in reference to overexposure (I understand that he means of main subject). I would think that FEC is the way to compensate for this. Meaning that if aperture is modified, the ETTL will compensate for your modification, thus annuling its effect. Am I wrong?Julio - the title of this thread pointed to using manual control of the exposure. In my post, I was describing fully manual control of the exposure and not describing a process using ETTL (or its variations). Exposure compensation does not come into play at all when using manual exposure settings.

[corinto]

Pardon my insistence: I meant flash exposure compensation, not EC.

[SkipD]

Pardon my insistence: I meant flash exposure compensation, not EC.No form of exposure compensation comes into play when using totally manual exposure control (M on the camera and any flash unit(s) also in manual mode). That includes FEC.

[corinto]

No form of exposure compensation comes into play

I am confused about the "flash manual mode" but my 20D, when dialed - FEC, does reduce flash intensity and, so, exposure of the main subject (meaning fill flash of subject the camera is metering of).

[SkipD]

I am confused about the "flash manual mode" but my 20D, when dialed - FEC, does reduce flash intensity and, so, exposure of the main subject (meaning fill flash of subject the camera is metering of).Julio, what you don't seem to understand is that I've been writing about using BOTH the camera AND the flash unit in manual exposure control modes. That means putting the camera's exposure mode dial to "M" and putting the flash unit into a manual mode.

Some flash units, such as my 420EX, cannot be put into manual mode, and maybe this is where your confusion is coming from. The 430EX, 550EX, and 580EX Speedlites can be put into manual control, meaning that the output of the flash is dialed in on the flash unit. When that is the case, the camera does absolutely nothing to control the flash output. In other words, even if you can set the FEC value, it will do nothing.

The scenario I have been writing about also applies to studio flash units. Studio flash units do not communicate to the camera, and exposure control is purely manual at the camera.

[corinto]

You are right. The fact is I have never even thought about setting flash to manual and, so, didn't get it.

lol, still lower part of learning curve. :(:(

I will have to look into this.

[Wilt]

Yella, one 'quirk' of Canon ETTL is that any camera in Tv or Av mode will always treat the flash unit (in 'ETTL' mode) as 'fill flash' and it will use a very very slow shutter speed, if necessary, to capture the ambient light (what's there, even without the flash!). Put your camera in P or M in order to get the camera to treat the 'ETTL' mode flash unit as the main source of light. Even then, it will probably be necessary to dial in FEC +2/3 EV in order to get a proper exposure, as Canon ETTL is notorious for underexposing flash photos!