A client on a budget.

[AKRover]

I have a client that wants me to shoot her at one of her poetry events and possibly do a location portrait shoot for her press kit, whatever that is. At first I gave her a price for just the shoot not including any image rights since she never answered the questions I asked her about what she was going to use them for. Well it ended up being more than she wanted to spend and I explained that if I new more of what she needed I could give her a better price and include the image fees into the shoot price. She wants at least 15 good images of herself indoors at an event and then about 15 more later on after a fresh snow, neither of which is a problem.

What I can't figure out is what kind of usage rights to give her? I know if I give her a CD then the pictures will end up on every flyer she prints from now on. The flip side to that though is her designer is a really good friend of mine who refereed her to me. I would hate to tell her that I can't help her out but I don't want to give my work away either. Any ideas on how I could negotiate a happy medium for us both?

[René Damkot]

Why not give her the licence to use the images for certain usage, for instance for press release and web only? If she wants to do posters, that would cost extra then...
That's what I usually do for promotional images: describe what media they can be used for.

[MikeMcL]

if you can get a fair price, and they are just pics for a friend of a friend... I'd just take a couple hundred bucks, and let her use them. call me a pushover, but it sounds like she is asking you to do (2) 1hour sessions, on location.

really the only other option is to skip the job totally.. or give her no rights and have her (possibly) use the pics the way she wants to regardless of rights. if she goes too far and puts her pic on a flyer without rights, would you really sue?

just name a fair (and profitable) price, and give her the disc. pay is pay

good luck

[AKRover]

Why not give her the licence to use the images for certain usage, for instance for press release and web only? If she wants to do posters, that would cost extra then...
That's what I usually do for promotional images: describe what media they can be used for.
That's kind of what I was thinking about doing but it's hard to get someone to understand how usage rights work sometimes. They think that because they pay me to take pictures that the pictures are theirs to use for whatever they want. Would it work to give her a set of contact sheets and tell her that if she needs something to call me and I'll get it to her? I'm just not a big fan of the CD thing.

[MHP]

whats her budget? ask her this, then fit the photographer to that, if its really tight, then I would suggest taking a few images, then sending her a contact sheet, picking one image from each shoot, then give them on cd with open licence, then you're only pp'ing 2 images and hopefully covering your time and a little extra. Copyright is a no-brainer. It goes Artist-client. personally i have that they cannot sell or pass images on without my knowledge or consent. let her know that she is not paying for the images, but your eye and equipement, without those things an image is nothing- that is copyright of an artistic creation, much like her poems, she would hate a publication to print her poems without her consent and knowledge and $$ from them. as any artist would. be gentle though, as this has probably never crossed her mind as shes still growing as an artist and wants her poems out there.

I would find out her budget first though, definitely step #1, then you can fit what you do to suit the price.

[AKRover]

I asked her for a budget but she never gave me one so I'm going to guess around $200. That should get her an hour of shooting and the minimal post processing. I think for her press kit she wants prints and if that's the case I'm going to have her buy those from me because I don't want her going to Walmart and getting prints. As for using the images in flayers I think I'll have her pick out two or three and let her use them for her flyer's. In all actuality she probably won't re-use an image on a flyer. She also mentioned putting some on her web site. For this I was thinking about including these in the usage contract for the ones she picks out but adding that the web images will need to have my copyright on or adjacent to the images. Would a link to my website be too much to ask for?

[René Damkot]

Would a link to my website be too much to ask for?
Nope. In fact, thats obligatory for my images in cases like this: Either state my name, or add a link.

[Steve Parr]

Nope. In fact, thats obligatory for my images in cases like this: Either state my name, or add a link.

Yep. I do exactly the same thing...

[AKRover]

Very good, if a get a little advertising it might be worth it. I'll be sure to add that in the contract too. That means I need a finished site now.

[tim]

That's kind of what I was thinking about doing but it's hard to get someone to understand how usage rights work sometimes. They think that because they pay me to take pictures that the pictures are theirs to use for whatever they want. Would it work to give her a set of contact sheets and tell her that if she needs something to call me and I'll get it to her? I'm just not a big fan of the CD thing.

I still don't understand why photographers are different from anyone else. We take a fee to produce a photo, why should we be paid more if they decide to use it for something else? We already got paid for our time. The only time I can see that it's reasonable is if we did it as a favour at a reduced rate for a specific purpose, then they want to use it for something else.

[LBaldwin]

Hi AKRover,

This will be a continual issue for the remainder of your career. We all run into to all the time. I am now in a position where I do not lower my rates for anyone. It gets really old when you get the same excuse from both a single Mom and major corporation. There are so many photographers out there who cut their rates to bring home a few dollars that getting her business will mean very little in the long term.

I say stick by your prices. If she is destined to become a world class poet (doubtful) than you may end up eating crow. But explain to her that your CODB does not allow for lower fees becuase she has no budget. The one thing I have found that is consistant is this, "if they are cheap now they will be even cheaper in the future".

I just got a call from a band that I did images for 4 years ago. They wanted to do more images two years ago, but when I quoted them a price they said never mind I will go and buy our own digital camera. Basically an insult.

So then I get an email last week that they wanted to hire me again, So I quoted them a good fee with some prints thrown in and I get, "sorry we can't afford you".

So stick by your prices and seek out clients who already understand what your rates should be.

Les Baldwin

[liza]

I'm with Les. Perhaps you should politely decline.

[Az2Africa]

I agree with liza and LBalbwin. I would decline. There will always be people looking for a "deal". I have NEVER had any of them do any future business that made them worth messing with. And even if the poet hits the big time, her publicist or business manager will hire someone they know for the big bucks. Stick to your price. Plus your fellow pros will be happier with you for not degrading the local prices.

[AKRover]

I'm not going to lower my price, just try to provide her with something that is within her budget if at all. That means way less shooting and not as many prints and/or usage. Although the more I think about this the less interested I get because I know I will end up spending more time than she is paying me for in order to produce a product that meets my standards.

[MikeMcL]

haha then give her complete crap, spend ten minutes on PP, and put in the contract that she can never tell anyone who did the work... and NOT link to your Imaginary site.

j/k

a pro would probably decline. a good non-pro would do it for the love and the practice.
-decide what you are and go with it.
-if you do it, Do It Well... (this applies in all areas of my life).
-Have fun, make the $200, and help her out. just make sure you keep your total time invested to say... 3 hours. that is more than a dollar a minute, which is fair to me... for a little job.

[AKRover]

haha then give her complete crap, spend ten minutes on PP, and put in the contract that she can never tell anyone who did the work... and NOT link to your Imaginary site.

Haha.

You know whats really funny about that statement is that is exactly what my designer friend tells her when he makes her flyers. ;)

She can't afford to pay him the full rate so he give does the quick and dirty on them, doesnt even get proofs. I guess she is OK with their agreement and has never had a problem with his work. He is a good designer though.

[Mark_Cohran]

I simply wouldn't do the job. It sounds like she's going to be more hassle than it's worth.

Mark

[LBaldwin]

Haha.

You know whats really funny about that statement is that is exactly what my designer friend tells her when he makes her flyers. ;)

She can't afford to pay him the full rate so he give does the quick and dirty on them, doesnt even get proofs. I guess she is OK with their agreement and hays never had a problem with his work. He is a good designer though.

The issue I have with this "do as little as possible" idea is that she will eventually show it to someone else. They tell her that can do a better job and they do, and even worse she pays them more in the perception that the work is actually better. She tells ever everyone what she paid and you look like the village idiot. If you give a price break first where will she go next when she has a better budget, to someone she has percieved as better cause they charge more have a nicer camera, drive a better car etc.

Get her to pay what you think is fair or explain why the two of you can;t work togeather...


Les Baldwin

[MHP]

Maybe give her three options or something.

None of them lacking in quality, just quantity.

[vkalia]

The way I see it - every image has a certain amount of value that you can extract from it.

With "general" images, which can be licensed to many different clients, the recurring value of the image can be quite high. For these sort of images, I prefer to use agreements with clearly specified usage.

In this particular case, the image is not likely to have any income value outside of that client. For a shoot like this, I'd bill for my time and give a very liberal usage license to the client - but one which still made it clear that I was the copyright holder for the image.

We can sit and argue ad nauseum about what the market SHOULD pay for our images, but the fact is, a corporate client is not the same as an editorial client is not the same as an individual commissioning a shoot. We can either demand the market meet our needs, or diversify our pricing strategies to address each market segment.

To me, the math is simple - is the revenue I get from spending X hours of my time worth it?

Vandit