Mirror slap with D-Rebel/300D

[mutepoint]

I'm thinking about purchasing the Canon D-Rebel because of its great price but I'm concerned about the lack of a mirror lockup. For those of you who have this camera, is there a way to get around it? For instance, can you use the timed-shutter release? With some cameras the mirror flips up as soon as you hit the shutter release button, but the actual shutter does not open until the timer goes off. Is this the case here? How about when using the IR remote shutter? Also, I was wondering if the mirror stays in the up position while in the bracketed exposure mode or does it open and close with each of the three exposures. Thanks for any insight that you might have.

[RichardtheSane]

This is going to sound harsh but....
...if you need mirror lockup enough to be as concerned as you seem about it you should really be considering a camera that actually has mirror lockup....

[Andy_T]

another option would be to buy it and then join a petition demanding the mirror lockup as feature in a future firmware upgrade :)

No pun intended,
Andy

[agit-prop]

That was one of the reasons I bought a used D30 instead of a new 300D last week

[mutepoint]

Yeah, sure, I know all that already. If I spend 500, 1000, or 10000 dollars more for a camera I'm going to get a better camera obviously. Yet no one has answered any of my questions yet.

Another thing that occured to me is that there may be other software such as RemoteCapture that would allow me to lock the mirror. If that is the case, why would I want to rob a bank for a more expensive camera?

[agit-prop]

Actually the D30 cost me several hundred (canadian) dollars less than a 300D would cost me.

This thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15703#112142) contains a discussion about the D30 vs the 300D.

I'm sorry if I cannot answer your question directly but I don't own a 300D.

[sam bailey]

I will answer your question. I have the rebel and thought that if I used the timer the mirror would lock up and then later the shutter would open. Not so, it times out and then the mirror and shutter operate as though you had not used the timer. Remote control works the same way. I don't use my camera a lot for astrophotography so it is not a big deal. Shooting the moon and the sun don't really require you to lock the mirror. Longer shots I just cover the telescope opening, use bulb and time(uncover and cover the opening) the shots so no shake can affect it. Within 2 to 3 years the digital SLRs will be better developed(full 35 mm size sensor and more pixels) and I will spend more money to get one with lock up. Hope that helps.

[sam bailey]

PS: Remote capture will not enable mirror lockup. I'm not sure if it is as simple as a firmware upgrade but I think so. No one has figured it out yet to my knowledge.

[openspace]

Personally, I think the lack of a mirror lockup on the 300D is a major omission. Ok, so leave it off the $249 Rebel film camera, but for $999 I think they could have included it. Then again no Rebel has ever had mirror lockup. You can minimize any vibration by using a good, solid professional tripod though.

**Hey! My 100th post! I'm now "Very Active"! Whoo hoo, I've reached the hallowed ground!**

[RichardtheSane]

I am not sure about this but I believe the 300D mirror works differently to a stantard slr, to facilitate the EF-S lenses. Maybe that could be a deciding factor in it.

Oh, and mirror lockup is a custom function, and canon did not want to put custom functions on the 300D - or any rebel camera. That extra control tends to nudge them into the semi-pro market, which the 300D isn't.

I mean, you might think for £1400 they could have included eye control on the 10D but they didn't. It is all relative. You are paying extra for the digital part, and the standard features features of the body will remain unchanged.

[mutepoint]

Thanks, Sam. That answers my question as I'm interested in astrophotography also. I thought for sure the RemoteCapture would work but I guess not. I do think it's just a matter of a firmware upgrade but I doubt we'll ever see the day that Canon releases it.

[mutepoint]

OK. One more idea to get the mirror to lockup. If the camera is connected to a video monitor via the video cable, does the camera transmit a video image, realtime, or does it simply display the last shot taken? If a video image is seen on the monitor then the mirror must be locked up and out of the way of the sensor. At that point you could just take the shot. Yes?

[Andy_T]

Hi mutepoint,

the 300D being an SLR, the mirror has to get out of the way for the light to reach the sensor. That means, during this time, the picture in the viewfinder is black. This is different from Canon's viewfinder digital cameras (e.g. A80, G5, ...) where the sensor is exposed consistently to the picture through the lens.

This causes two limitations of all Canon SLR's
- no 'Video' mode enabling you to shoot videos
(you'd have a hard time to aim with the black screen anyway ;))
- no possibility to use the LCD monitor to frame the picture before you press the shutter

Regards,
Andy

Sam Bailey:

As you have the 300D and have looked into that subject, we would greatly appreciate feedback on whether the mirror slap on the 300D is strong andinterferes with the picture if using a tripod or if it is weak and does not pose that problem.

Re D30

Granted, you might get great deals on the D30, which is definitely the more versatile camera. However, the Digital Rebel is reported to have advantages in focusing and - of course - twice the pixel count.

[robertwgross]

Normally on a camera, there is only a limited range of shutter speeds where mirror slap (vibration) causes a problem. It is always there, but not necessarily making a problem. If you go to a very slow shutter speed, then the vibration time period is only a very small portion of the total exposure time period, so it makes little problem. If you go to a very quick shutter speed, then the shutter opens and closes before mirror slap is there. Therefore, there is a limited range where it can be a problem. This varies from camera to camera.

My partner claims that on his Mamiya 645, it is only from about 1/4 second to about 1/30 second.

Maybe somebody has measured this on some Canon model.

---Bob Gross---

[dtrayers]

I did some testing tonight to see how much mirror slap affects the image.

I taped a laser pointer to the lens barrel and using two mirrors projected a dot on a white board about 5 feet from the lens. The distance travelled by the laser was about 32 feet, bouncing between two mirrors. The camera was on a tripod and I used a RS60-E3 cable release to trip the shutter.

(My kids think I'm nuts. I had this set up in the kitchen.)

Just touching the camera made the laser dot move. Even walking near the camera made it move.

I tried shutter speeds from 2 seconds to 1/80 second (I had to adjust the ISO to get the extended range). I passed the laser beam through a metal collander (really scientific) after it came off the second mirror. This was to make a pattern of smaller dots, and the dots changed brightness as the beam moved on the collander.

At all shutter speeds I couldn't see any discernable movement in the brightness or location of the laser dots. I examined all the pictures and I couldn't really see any difference in the laser patterns.

If there is a mirror slap issue, I couldn't find any effect of it.

Maybe someone with a more scientific setup can re-create this experiement and be able to quantify their findings.

I, for one, am not going to worry about mirror slap and though mirror lockup would be nice to have, I've satisfied myself that I don't really need it with this camera.

[Andy_T]

dtrayers wrote:
I did some testing tonight to see how much mirror slap affects the image.



(My kids think I'm nuts. I had this set up in the kitchen.)



Actually, I think you're nuts, too :).
I was more thinking about possible answers along the lines of 'Didn't show up as a problem so far' or 'Awful, spoils half of my pictures' .... but not some super scientific experiment.

But I'm happy about the answer!! Thanks a lot!!!

Regards,
Andy

[agit-prop]

dtrayers wrote:Maybe someone with a more scientific setup can re-create this experiement and be able to quantify their findings.


I volunteer to do the tests. Send the camera to my home address. Email me for shipping details...

[dtrayers]

I'll send you the collander... :D

[agit-prop]

Mirror slap just won't be an issue for most people.

It will be an issue for applications like astrophotography. I use a telescope with a focal length of 2000mm (3200mm equivalent if you account for the 1.6 factor). At those focal lengths mirror slap can be a problem.

[vvizard]

Can the mirror-lockup be achieved by simply a change to the firmware? If it can, you have another way to solve the problem on the Digital Rebel.

The Digital Rebel made it's way into www.slashdot.org. For the not-so-geekish-ones, that's Mekka for us computer-geeks when it comes to technology-news (and other stuff "that matters"). My bet, there'll be an unofficial opensource firmware available for the 300D before Canon get's around to release it's next =)

To help speed up things, start a project for this over at sourceforge.net, and then try to get the project slashdot'ed. If all you guys who really want the 10D features without paying for it, each pay one buck to make the right geeks afford their own 300D's, you're new firmware will prolly be released pretty soon, with a focusing-system to rival the 1D, faster I/O-mechanism for CF-card writes, Linux' real-time scheduler, hotplug-support. And for good measures, a 300D-enabled bootable Linux-distro with XFree86 and Gimp, to load from the CF-card =)

Oooor, you could actually pay for the 10D, or just wait until you can get a used 10D for the price of a 300D :) It's real funny actually, I've never seen anybody buying a Fiat, then complaining to Fiat about it's lack of a Mercedes driving-capabilities. Sorry if some of you guys get mad, but in real life, you get what you pay for, and usually (if you did your research right) you're happy with it.

[mutepoint]

Your kids' opinion not withstanding, I think you're a genius, dtravers. The laser is great idea. However, I think that if you did a macro shot at a closer distance and without the collander, you would see that the laser point becomes blured. This would simulate a closeup photograph where focus becomes critical. A little shake in the camera will not be noticable with objects far away from the camera, but will become apparent very close in. But then maybe I'm wrong. At any rate, I've already decided that I'm going to buy the 10D instead and save myself the aggravation. It's just going to take me a little longer to save my pennies.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Great test! I think with that effective 32' "laser lever" he has enough mechanical advantage that a slight movement would be quite visible!!! (the 32" distance will magnify any minute movemnet dramatically)

Remember, the mirror in the 300D is a totally different set up from the prism in the 10D.. so we are not talking about firmware here.

[PacAce]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
Great test! I think with that effective 32' "laser lever" he has enough mechanical advantage that a slight movement would be quite visible!!! (the 32" distance will magnify any minute movemnet dramatically)

Remember, the mirror in the 300D is a totally different set up from the prism in the 10D.. so we are not talking about firmware here.

The 300D already has the mechanism for locking the mirror and the firmware to do it. (If you think "sensor cleaning" a bright light should come on a this point.) So, as someone earlier suggested, a simple firmware upgrade would be all that's required to have "mirror lockup for shooting" capability on the 300D.

[dtrayers]

I recreated the experiment tonight (after the kids were in bed to save me the funny looks). :D

I posted the unprocessed pictures (only resized) here:

http://home.comcast.net/~dtrayers/mirror/index.htm

You can use the slideshow or click on any thumbnail and advance it manually.

I ran the shutter speed from 1 sec to 1/30. I ran out of aperture at 1/30, so it's a little dark. I also used Remote Capture so I could change the shutter speed and release the shutter without touching the camera.

BTW, I took Mute's suggestion and got closer to the dots. Again, the laser distance was about 32 feet (10m). You could blow hard on the camera and see the pattern move. I took all shots consecutively and within 2 minutes (it takes a while for a large/fine jpg to pass to the computer!)

[iesrick]

Alas....with your decision to go with the 10D it has all become a moot point mutepoint. :)
Have fun with the 10D!

[ABCD]

The infamous mirror slap issue on the 300d addressed:

Vibrations in the shutterspeed area of 1/10 1/25 etc.. can cause picture blur. Has anyone proven this? (Kudos to LaserCollander man :0) The Luminous landscape guy is the only one who has reported this phenonmenon ( and he did not blame the mirror slap directly). So far I have not seen a single picture posted from anyone that details this problem. Mr. Luminous did not detail the shooting conditions in any way. Windy?, Raining? Tripod legs sitting in a swift running stream? Who knows, he said very little concerning details. Can you use the hat trick? Hat in one hand remote with "bulb setting" employed. Yeah, it works. You don't have film to waste, take two or three shots with this method and you will probably get what you want. But first, prove out that the mirror slap is causing anything at all. If you should find that the mirror slap is indeed causing any problems whatsoever. Here is an internal improvement: (Strict warning here!!!!), if you start monkeying around inside the camera and you are a clumsy non-detail oriented person, the results could be catasrophic!!! I have employed this modification on my 300d. Do not expect the sound of the slap to change much after this modification. If you take the lens off your camera and use the sensor clean function you will see the puny shock absorber that canon employed (does kind of piss me off, I mean how expensive is the damping material?). It sticks up about a 16th of an inch. Hit the sensor clean button and you will see the mirror go up and strike the foam. To the right and the left of the foam shock absorber you will see to minute tabs of plastic that catch the mirror after it strikes the shock absorber. I have used 1/8 inch sticky back weather stripping foam at these two points. It does muffle the slap some what, not as much as you might expect, but there is a difference. It was an easy mod, tools required are a razor knife to cut foam, and a flat toothpick. The sticky back on the weather stripping is really sticky, ( I mean it does not come of easily),but you can remove it with tweezers by pulling the foam up in one corner and no residue is left(if you should decide to remove it). The noise is not the issue here, I have removed the ability of the mirror housing to strike the solid plastic housing of the camera (a damping function only). The mirror mirror strikes the 1/8 inch foam first and the canon 1/16 inch shock absorber second. I have tried this mod and it definitely changes the sound (but not as much as you would expect). The foam blocks you cut are small, 3/16 by 1/8 and rectanular. Don't cut them so that they stick out into the lens seat for God's sake or you will be grinding foam off into the camera internals. If you cut them right they look professional and permanent, like they belong there, they do not touch the mirror glass either. My main goal was to increase the cushioning and dispersion of the shockwaves (milliseconds here!!) from the inside of the camera. A soft suede bag filled with steel shot and a sturdy tripod doesn't hurt either. I am not suggesting or encouraging anyone to try this mod. Doing things like this can get out of hand quickly if you are not a detail oriented person. I have not proven any issue with the shutter speeds in question, I only did this because it was simple and cheap. The only complaint I have about the 300d is the lack of a mirror lock-up. The petition on this board I have read about is going to accomplish nothing, but I will sign on just the same. You can't outstrip the 10d with functions on the Rebel and expect Canon to jump on, you get what you pay for.... My fantasy camera would be a 1Ds full manual camera with no software funtions above recording the image, and yes mirror lock-up and auto focus at the 1000$ price range. Never happen, now theres a petition to get started. A camera is nothing more than a "dark space" positioned between glass and a recording medium. World class pictures have been taken on far less sophisticated instruments. Still, mirror-lockup, come on Canon, the sensor clean function raises the mirror at the touch of a button, how hard would it have been to not open the shutter at the same time and give us just one little extra function? Remember, if you try this mod and you destroy the camera some how, please remember I warned you first. I accept no blame or liability for any problems that you may incur from this mod.

best

:0)