10D & 550 EX~lighting issues

[photosbyrachel]

Hi eveyone,
My name is Rachel, I'm new here. Hopefully someone can help me with this...
I normally shoot with natural light, but a friend has asked me to shoot her wedding in January. I bought the 550 EX speedlite for my 10D. The first few times I used it, it seemed to work great. However, now my images are coming out very dark. I am not sure what the problem is or what I am doing wrong? Any advice??
Thanks

[ChrisNardone]

Someone else recently brought this up and I am stealing an answer from that post, see:
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

You probably need to shoot in full auto, Program, or full manual. If you shoot in Av or Tv, the camera meters the background for the existing light and then adjusts the flash to illuminate the subject. This doesn't work well if the backgound is a white painted wall or lights etc. The key thing is that in Tv or Av the camera doesn't think of the flash a the primary light source, but more of a fill source. So if the existing lighting is dim you will get slow shutter speeds etc.

Apparantly you will also need to use flash compensation to bighten things up, because the 10D tends toward dim exposures.

[photosbyrachel]

Thanks for your reply, Chris. I actually just recently got my 10D. So, I am still learning how to use it, flash compensation, etc.
Hate to sound like an idiot but how do I use Flash comp. on 10D?
Thanks

[mlfrancis]

This has been asked many times on the board, but a quick answer for you.

Could be a couple of things. If you do the compose, half-press, and recompose, that could be your problem. The way the flah works is it meters whatever the current autofocus (AF) point is over "When you completely press the shutter release," NOT when you do the half press. So, if you do the half-press, recompose, then your AF point is over something lighter or darker than the originally focused subject, you will get either over or under exposure. If the AF point is over something white when you press the shutter release, you will get under exposure. If over something black, you will get over exposure.

You can manually select the appropriate AF point so you don't have to recompose after a half-press, or you can use the camera's flash exposure lock "Before" you recompose. I think it is the "*" button. Check it out in the manual. Probably says FEL (Flash Exposure Lock).

Another thing is the 10D is known to be dark on flash photos so use the flash compensation on either the camera or flash and bump it up a tad: 1/3 to 2/3 stops.

I just remembered you said wedding photography. Well, just don't forget what I said about the AF point over white (wedding dress) and black (tux). Use the flash compensation either up or down depending on what you are shooting at the moment.

If you are in a room with white ceiling that isn't over about 9ft tall, I would suggest tilting the flash head up and using a bounce flash. If the ceiling isn't white or higher than 9ft don't do it.

Another suggestion, shoot in RAW. Wedding shots are too important to trust to the current camera settings being saved in JPG. In RAW you can change things after the fact: white balance, exposure compensation (not flash compensation though), etc.

Everything you wanted to know about flashes: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash

Enough rambling. I thought I said I was going to make it quick. ;-) Check out the photonotes site and have fun shooting.

[photosbyrachel]

Thank you mlfrancis. You were not rambling. :) I found what you said very helpful. I guess I should get to practicing!! :)

[toddb]

When I first got my 550EX for my 10D, I wasn't letting the flash recycle. What I mean if I was bouncing the light, it usually needs a full powered flash (I always shoot auto because I have no idea what I'm doing). Make sure your letting the flash recycle completly. The red light should come one....green means it will flash but it's not at full power. The more you shoot, the more the batteries run down, the longer it takes to recycle the flash. I moved to rechargable because of that. I can always recharge them when they even start to get a little tired.

The other thing I notice is be careful of your distance, there seems to be a magic range that the flash works the best. You'll just have to do some experimenting.

[robertwgross]

As the others have stated, it can be tricky trying to expose for the white dress and also the black tuxedo. I figure I am going to make a big mistake if I try to completely out-guess all of the automatic metering of the camera. So, as a result, I normally shoot weddings with only small compensations from the automatic settings. Any way I slice it, exposures may be less than perfect. So, which is better, to have the white dress "blown out" overexposed, or to have the black tuxedo very dark and shadowy?

I always try to err on the latter side. An underexposed shadowy image is easier to fix in the editor than the overexposed white. Generally, just a little manual brightening (in the editor) makes each shot perfect.

I use a D60 and 550EX for weddings.

---Bob Gross---

[GenDEM]

photosbyrachel wrote:
Hi eveyone,
My name is Rachel, I'm new here. Hopefully someone can help me with this...
I normally shoot with natural light, but a friend has asked me to shoot her wedding in January. I bought the 550 EX speedlite for my 10D. The first few times I used it, it seemed to work great. However, now my images are coming out very dark. I am not sure what the problem is or what I am doing wrong? Any advice??
Thanks

Yes: if you are the only photographer, don't shoot the wedding. If you don't know what you're doing you will not do your friend any favours by trying. It sounds fun and all that, but when reality hits you may end up losing a friend. Is it worth it? Only you can decide. Shooting a wedding is easy. Shooting a wedding well is hard and expensive.

[robertwgross]

It is foolish to say that a newbie can't shoot this or that wedding. It depends!

(A) A large formal wedding in a cathedral with 300 people in attendence.
(B) A medium formal wedding in a medium size church with 100 in attendence.
(C) A New-Age wedding outside on a mountain top with 15 people in attendence.

Type A requires some specialized lighting and a fair amount of photographic staffing. I, personally, would shy away from a big one like this.

Type B is normally done with some medium format film gear or else at least two digital cameras. A friend and I shoot these using one MF film camera, a Nikon 35mm film camera, and my D60. Big Quantum flashes with wireless links.

Type C can be done with one good camera of any type, but with a flash unit for fill. This depends on sky and weather conditions a lot.

---Bob Gross---

[DaveG]

robertwgross wrote:
It is foolish to say that a newbie can't shoot this or that wedding. It depends!

(A) A large formal wedding in a cathedral with 300 people in attendence.
(B) A medium formal wedding in a medium size church with 100 in attendence.
(C) A New-Age wedding outside on a mountain top with 15 people in attendence.

Type A requires some specialized lighting and a fair amount of photographic staffing. I, personally, would shy away from a big one like this.

Type B is normally done with some medium format film gear or else at least two digital cameras. A friend and I shoot these using one MF film camera, a Nikon 35mm film camera, and my D60. Big Quantum flashes with wireless links.

Type C can be done with one good camera of any type, but with a flash unit for fill. This depends on sky and weather conditions a lot.

---Bob Gross---

It really doesn't matter what size the wedding is if you mess it up. That bride is only getting married once (she thinks) and it had better be right on HER day. Even if you are on the mountain, you had better not overexpose the groups!

[Vegas Poboy]

On the issue of photos being to dark with the 10D,
1st make sure the flash is seated properly on the camera, I've had this problem myself rushing to put it on and it was'nt.
2nd if you can access a flash meter use it to see if the flash is firing properly.
I' currently doing flash assignments now in school and the 550 is a great flash and there is no need to use built in camera compensation only if you're using the 420 or built in flash.
Another good tool to purchase is a flash bracket if your're going to do weddings or portraits. Make sure you purchase one with a flip bracket and it gives enough room for a battery pack.
Another test to try is after you shoot a few pics look @ the data to see if the flash fired.
Good luck

[DaveG]

Vegas Poboy wrote:
On the issue of photos being to dark with the 10D,
1st make sure the flash is seated properly on the camera, I've had this problem myself rushing to put it on and it was'nt.
2nd if you can access a flash meter use it to see if the flash is firing properly.
I' currently doing flash assignments now in school and the 550 is a great flash and there is no need to use built in camera compensation only if you're using the 420 or built in flash.
Another good tool to purchase is a flash bracket if your're going to do weddings or portraits. Make sure you purchase one with a flip bracket and it gives enough room for a battery pack.
Another test to try is after you shoot a few pics look @ the data to see if the flash fired.
Good luck

You can't use a flash meter with the E-TTL system enabled because the first "informational" flash pulse from the 550 triggers it. Subsequently you measure the wrong flash pulse. Now on one of the manual settings the flash meter works just fine.

[whitema]

I'm using the 10D & 550EX for weddings, portraits, general people shots and hate the way the 550EX makes up its own mind in ETTL mode. It produces consistently under exposed images (just look at the histograms in Photoshop) that unfortunately look correctly exposed on the LCD at the back.

This is true when using either bounced flash (my favourite) or straight ahead fill. I work totally manually inside (f/5.6 or F/8 @ 1/30, 1/60 or 1/125- depending on any outside ambient light) and my best results on the flash gun are: straight ahead fill (f/5.6 @1/60 +1/3 to +2/3 FEC with diffuser down) - good for 2-5 metres distance.

Bounce fill - f/5.6 @1/60 + 1 and 1/3 to 1 and 2/3 FEC with 3 - 4 metre ceilings.

I love my 10D but don't try and take it outside in harsh sunlight and try and fill in faces with the 550EX on ETTL even using Av or Tv - it thinks for itself everytime it sees white, lots of backlighting or ambient light and underfills to the extreme. Also digital is like slide film - forget it material with harsh Australian lighting. Highlights blow out to the point they're unrecoverable and the 550EX underfills the faces to buggery.

As much as I find it cumbersome, I'll be going back to Fuji NPS film and my Metz 60CT4 for harsh outside lighting and NPH with same flash for high ceilings for bounced flash.

I'll give the Manual Mode a go on the 550EX and manual mode on the 10D both inside and outside but I'm not expecting miracles.

With the underfilling of inside images, you can correct them using LEVELS in Photoshop, but the images are underexposed to start with and anything you try produces excessive noise and weird colours uncorrectable sometimes even with Paint Shop Pro 7 using Effects/Auto Colour Balance.

I'd appreciate any comments on what I've said and certainly any help offered.

Yours frustratedly,

Mark

[scottbergerphoto]

chrisnardone wrote:
Someone else recently brought this up and I am stealing an answer from that post, see:
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

You probably need to shoot in full auto, Program, or full manual. If you shoot in Av or Tv, the camera meters the background for the existing light and then adjusts the flash to illuminate the subject. This doesn't work well if the backgound is a white painted wall or lights etc. The key thing is that in Tv or Av the camera doesn't think of the flash a the primary light source, but more of a fill source. So if the existing lighting is dim you will get slow shutter speeds etc.

Apparantly you will also need to use flash compensation to bighten things up, because the 10D tends toward dim exposures.
Your reasoning is a little off Chris. I use Aperture prioity all the time with flash whenever there is a background worth capturing. Flash photography is basically the process of taking two pictures and combining them. The Aperture and Shutter speed control the exposure of the background. When you use a program mode, the slowest shutter speed you can get is 1/60th of a second. That is OK if your background is light but in a dimly lit room the background will look very dark. The second exposure is the flash. The preflash goes off just as you fully depress the shutter release button, but before the shutter opens. It measures light reflected off the subject, calculates the proper flash intensity, and then fires the flash after the shutter opens. This happens faster then 1/1000th of a second. The picture is a combination of the exposures. Regardless of which exposure mode you use, ETTL will try to do some manipulation to balance flash and ambient light. Using Progam modes will give you dark backgrounds because they can only drop to 1/60 of a second. The issue of a white backgound has to do with the fact that white is very reflective and will send more of the pre-flash back to the camera resulting in less flash output.
You have to make a decision when using flash whether or not having a well exposed background is important to you. The trade off is that when you use slower shutter speeds to capture the background, your subject must remain completely still after the flash, lest you get trails of reflected ambient light.
Scott

[DaveG]

whitema wrote:
I'm using the 10D & 550EX for weddings, portraits, general people shots and hate the way the 550EX makes up its own mind in ETTL mode. It produces consistently under exposed images (just look at the histograms in Photoshop) that unfortunately look correctly exposed on the LCD at the back.

This is true when using either bounced flash (my favourite) or straight ahead fill. I work totally manually inside (f/5.6 or F/8 @ 1/30, 1/60 or 1/125- depending on any outside ambient light) and my best results on the flash gun are: straight ahead fill (f/5.6 @1/60 +1/3 to +2/3 FEC with diffuser down) - good for 2-5 metres distance.

Bounce fill - f/5.6 @1/60 + 1 and 1/3 to 1 and 2/3 FEC with 3 - 4 metre ceilings.

I love my 10D but don't try and take it outside in harsh sunlight and try and fill in faces with the 550EX on ETTL even using Av or Tv - it thinks for itself everytime it sees white, lots of backlighting or ambient light and underfills to the extreme. Also digital is like slide film - forget it material with harsh Australian lighting. Highlights blow out to the point they're unrecoverable and the 550EX underfills the faces to buggery.

As much as I find it cumbersome, I'll be going back to Fuji NPS film and my Metz 60CT4 for harsh outside lighting and NPH with same flash for high ceilings for bounced flash.

I'll give the Manual Mode a go on the 550EX and manual mode on the 10D both inside and outside but I'm not expecting miracles.

With the underfilling of inside images, you can correct them using LEVELS in Photoshop, but the images are underexposed to start with and anything you try produces excessive noise and weird colours uncorrectable sometimes even with Paint Shop Pro 7 using Effects/Auto Colour Balance.

I'd appreciate any comments on what I've said and certainly any help offered.

Yours frustratedly,

Mark

I did a commercial job on Saturday and used the wireless TTL flash with the 550 and a 420. It worked flawlessly.

Then I tried to do some table shots (big round tables, white table cloths and about 12 people per table) with just one flash. Nothing but underexposure!

I think that what I need to do is to drag along my old Vivitar 283 to shoot on Automatic. The selected aperture on the flash should get me close and then I can quickly review the histogram and then open or close down a tiny bit. I don't mean to say that I'd do this after every shot since I think that I'd get consistent results very quickly. ("If I set the flash on f8 I need to open up a third of stop ...")

That's the problem with E-TTL. It's VERY inconsistent, you can't easily overrule what it wants to do, and it's a big, big problem.

[whitema]

Yeh, it can't cope with white, bright ambient light or colours. Absolutely hopeless. To compound issues in bright outside lighting using large av f/2.8 - f/8 using High Speed Sync - the guide no. drops dramatically as well. So you may as well not even use the rotten thing.

I just hope using manual mode on the flash and +1 to +2 on the 550EX will fix the problem. But then you'll suffer severe battery drain, even using NiMh rechargeables as I do. It happened at a wedding on Saturday. The batteries gave up after only about 120 shots.

The Metz is looking real good for outdoor use, table shots, family photos inside, etc.

The 10D is great for available light and shots that don't confuse the 550EX and I love the images when everything goes well. Especially the black & white I can produce in Photoshop.

Here's hoping

Mark

[GenDEM]

robertwgross wrote:
It is foolish to say that a newbie can't shoot this or that wedding. It depends!


The only thing it depends on are the expectations of the couple getting married. If they have low/no expectations, great. If they have expectations anything above that, they're in for a dissapointment. Don't mean to be harsh, but better reality kicks in now rather than 3 weeks after the wedding and there are bad feelings all around.

The original poster would do well to find someone to mentor with for a while before taking on a wedding alone.

[ChrisNardone]

Your reasoning is a little off Chris.

I hear you Scott. I didn't word my answer very well. I was trying too hard to keep it short.

[Vegas Poboy]

DaveG wrote:
Vegas Poboy wrote:
On the issue of photos being to dark with the 10D,
1st make sure the flash is seated properly on the camera, I've had this problem myself rushing to put it on and it was'nt.
2nd if you can access a flash meter use it to see if the flash is firing properly.
I' currently doing flash assignments now in school and the 550 is a great flash and there is no need to use built in camera compensation only if you're using the 420 or built in flash.
Another good tool to purchase is a flash bracket if your're going to do weddings or portraits. Make sure you purchase one with a flip bracket and it gives enough room for a battery pack.
Another test to try is after you shoot a few pics look @ the data to see if the flash fired.
Good luck

True very true, sorry not to make that clear. I'm so used to using manual mode.
You can't use a flash meter with the E-TTL system enabled because the first "informational" flash pulse from the 550 triggers it. Subsequently you measure the wrong flash pulse. Now on one of the manual settings the flash meter works just fine.

[vanman]

Hi Rachel,

My two cents.

I don't know what type and how much experience you have in photography but personally I think a wedding is one of the toughest high stress jobs that a person can take on. If you don't have the experience I think it would be better to help your friend pick an established wedding photographer.

If your friend likes the type of mood, look or feeling of your photography offer to augment the formal photographs with your interpretation, as a backup. If you do this be sure that the photographer you hire knows about it and agrees to cooperate.

Get a good book on wedding photography. Then look at a lot of wedding pictures and make a list (or story board) of shots that you and your friend want and the people you want in them. Then use the list to setup and practice them to see if you get the results you want. At the wedding use the list to check off the shots as you take them to be sure you cover the minimum. Go to the location where you will be taking pictures, at the same time you will be taking them, and scout for backgrounds. Bring someone to act as a model and take pictures.

Depending on what you choose to do think about bringing an assistant to help you at the wedding.

Start getting ready tomorrow, you don't have much time before the wedding.

Good Luck.

[robertwgross]

vanman wrote:
Get a good book on wedding photography. Then look at a lot of wedding pictures and make a list (or story board) of shots that you and your friend want and the people you want in them. Then use the list to setup and practice them to see if you get the results you want. At the wedding use the list to check off the shots as you take them to be sure you cover the minimum. Go to the location where you will be taking pictures, at the same time you will be taking them, and scout for backgrounds. Bring someone to act as a model and take pictures.
...
Depending on what you choose to do think about bringing an assistant to help you at the wedding.


One friend and I shoot weddings, and we've worked together enough that I can read him like a book. I can predict where he will look for a flower bouquet in the building, and he can predict where I will look for flowers outside of the building. I can make a list of the "standard cliche shots" that we will get, and they will be almost in a standard sequence, before, during, and after the ceremony. We know how far from the background wall we will pose the couple beforehand. The only trick is that the other photographer shoots film and I shoot digitally. It's relatively foolproof that way.

Of course, there is a fool who can overcome any foolproof scheme.

An assistant can be very helpful in posing small groups. Women are typically better at that then men, for some reason. They look to see that the bowtie is straight, and that the gown is not twisted into a wrinkle.

---Bob Gross---

[Mashuri]

I'm using the 10D & 550EX for weddings, portraits, general people shots and hate the way the 550EX makes up its own mind in ETTL mode. It produces consistently under exposed images (just look at the histograms in Photoshop) that unfortunately look correctly exposed on the LCD at the back.

This is true when using either bounced flash (my favourite) or straight ahead fill. I work totally manually inside (f/5.6 or F/8 @ 1/30, 1/60 or 1/125- depending on any outside ambient light) and my best results on the flash gun are: straight ahead fill (f/5.6 @1/60 +1/3 to +2/3 FEC with diffuser down) - good for 2-5 metres distance.

Bounce fill - f/5.6 @1/60 + 1 and 1/3 to 1 and 2/3 FEC with 3 - 4 metre ceilings.

I love my 10D but don't try and take it outside in harsh sunlight and try and fill in faces with the 550EX on ETTL even using Av or Tv - it thinks for itself everytime it sees white, lots of backlighting or ambient light and underfills to the extreme. Also digital is like slide film - forget it material with harsh Australian lighting. Highlights blow out to the point they're unrecoverable and the 550EX underfills the faces to buggery.

As much as I find it cumbersome, I'll be going back to Fuji NPS film and my Metz 60CT4 for harsh outside lighting and NPH with same flash for high ceilings for bounced flash.

I'll give the Manual Mode a go on the 550EX and manual mode on the 10D both inside and outside but I'm not expecting miracles.

With the underfilling of inside images, you can correct them using LEVELS in Photoshop, but the images are underexposed to start with and anything you try produces excessive noise and weird colours uncorrectable sometimes even with Paint Shop Pro 7 using Effects/Auto Colour Balance.

I'd appreciate any comments on what I've said and certainly any help offered.

Yours frustratedly,

Mark


Have you experimented much with FEL? Perhaps if you lock flash exposure on a darker part of your scene (or maybe even a grey card) then, while locked, recompose for your actual shot you might get the exposure you need? I don't know if you've tried this or not but just thought I'd throw it out there...

[whitema]

Thanks for the thought - but i don't have time to muck around with FEL at weddings. Shouldn't have to any way. With my Metz 60CT4 I'm used to working totally manually on it and get exactly what I think i'm gonna get. It doesn't think for itself, thank God.

I'll see how I go in Manual Mode on the flash.

[scottbergerphoto]

I wanted to add this yesterday, but I wanted to make sure I got it right. In the article Chris mentions above, http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ , it states on page 12 :" If the photo is being taken under bright lighting conditions (10 EV or brighter), auto fill reduction is applied. (unless it has been disabled by a custom function, as is possible on some bodies.)" This is why fill flash on sunny days is hard to do with ETTL.
Unfortunately, Canon, unlike Nikon (which allows you to switch from 3D Matrix Balanced Flash to TTL) doesn't give you the option to use TTL instead of ETTL on its high end flashes.
Scott

[Mashuri]

whitema wrote:
Thanks for the thought - but i don't have time to muck around with FEL at weddings. Shouldn't have to any way. With my Metz 60CT4 I'm used to working totally manually on it and get exactly what I think i'm gonna get. It doesn't think for itself, thank God.

I'll see how I go in Manual Mode on the flash.


I don't recommend experimenting during the wedding. I meant at home so you know what to do at the event. I dicked around with my 550EX tonight and got good results locking exposure on a lighter part of the frame, then locking flash on a part that needs illuminating, then shooting.