I need help with color management (longish)...

[sparty314]

First, (a disclaimer) I am a beginner at digital photography, so please bear with me...

I am using a 10D, the packaged Photoshop Elements 2.0, Windows XP, and a Compaq 17" crt monitor. I don't have a printer--I have been taking my photos to the local Sam's Club to use their Frontier Digital Minilab, and it seems to produce great output.

I have searched on this forum and read a little about color management. It is very apparent that there are many very knowledgable people here. I know one solution to my problem would be to invest in a photo printer and upgrade to the professional Photoshop, but that just is *not* possible right now.

The prints I get from Sam's are not the same color as what I see on my monitor. I have run the AdobeGamma utility (to calibrate my monitor?)


(1) What color management features are present (or lacking) in Elements? Is there a website that could explain this to me.

(2) Just for fun, I create a solid color of red (255,0,0), green (0,255,0) and blue (0,0,255) in Elements and had those printed at Sam's. I brought them home and compared them to the images on screen. The red is close, the printed green is way darked than the almost lime green on screen, and the printed blue is significantly darker than the blue on screen. Does it make any sense to do this comparison?

(3) Does setting my camera to "standard" or "adobe RGB" have any affect at how the images look (or can be manipulated) in Elements?

(4) When I right-click on the desktop and click "properties," "settings," "advanced" I see a tabbed window that says "compaq 7500 color monitor and S3 graphics prosavageddr ..." where color management is a choice. Also there, there is a place where I can adjust the gamma setting of the monitor. (How)does this conflict with the Adobe Gamma utility? What am I supposed to use to set the gamma in this utility?

(5) Is there any sort of calibration procedure that I could use with my current set-up?

(6) If not, is there a procedure that I could use to kind of fake color management to produce acceptable prints?


I really would like to avoid all of the trial and error, but I just can't afford to invest in expensive software right now. Besides, I can print quite a few "bad" 4 x 6 prints at $.20 (US) each :)

[w10d]

Afraid I can't offer you a lot of help as I use Photoshop and I'm on a Mac! But until someone else comes along with sensible hardware/software suggestions....

Pre-colour management one technique was to have a print made with a good range of colours and densities (PS used to come with such an image). Then compare the print to your monitor, and adjust the monitor to match the print. In effect you are roughly matching the appearance of your monitor to the labs output. N.B. A problem arises if the lab doesn't produce consistent output!

But then, if they are not really calibrating their equipment and using a colour managed work flow it won't help your prints much if you are :(

Have you talked to the lab about CM? Are they expecting images in ssRGB? Do their eyes glaze over?

[ajmcdo]

Dear sparty 314,
I too use APS CS on a Mac but the principles involved in colour profiling are still the same.
If you really want to print exactly what your monitor displays then you have to profile the monitor and printer. Photoshop doesen't actually come into it.
I use "Colorvision" profiling software to create colour profiles for my apple Cinema Display and an Epson 1270. You can even do a different profile for each type of paper if you're really obsessive. This is fiddly stuff but well worth the effort. The printed output truly reflects the screen images.

Wombat

[dtrayers]

When you run the Adobe Gamma Utility it should create a named profile at the end of the process. In your XP display settings under Advanced and Color Management you should see that color profile. If not, click ADD and find it, then set it to the default.

Then, in PSE2, select "No color management" and set your camera to sRGB colorspace.

PSE has limited color management, so you might as well keep your camera in sRGB, and Sam's Club should be compatable with it.

I suggest you pick up a copy of Photoshop Elements 2 Solutions (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0782141404/qid=1068436495/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-6192472-6259930?v=glance&n=507846). It has a section on color management and print output.

[sparty314]

Thank you everyone. I will follow Dave's suggestions for now, and I will order a copy of the book Dave suggests.

[sparty314]

w10d wrote:
Have you talked to the lab about CM? Are they expecting images in ssRGB? Do their eyes glaze over?

Good question! Yes, I did talk to them and "glazed" eyes certainly describes the response. I know that it what I should expect, so I am really not surprised!

[scottbergerphoto]

dtrayers wrote:
When you run the Adobe Gamma Utility it should create a named profile at the end of the process. In your XP display settings under Advanced and Color Management you should see that color profile. If not, click ADD and find it, then set it to the default.

Then, in PSE2, select "No color management" and set your camera to sRGB colorspace.

PSE has limited color management, so you might as well keep your camera in sRGB, and Sam's Club should be compatable with it.

I suggest you pick up a copy of Photoshop Elements 2 Solutions (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0782141404/qid=1068436495/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-6192472-6259930?v=glance&n=507846). It has a section on color management and print output.

Sorry, butI have to disagree with you on your characterization of Photoshop Elements 2.0 and your recommendation to not color manage with it.
I use a 10D set to Raw, Adobe RGB. I convert in BreezeBrowser and open the 8 bit Tiff file up in PSE2.0 with the Adobe RGB tag. I post process and then in print preview I set my source: to Adobe RGB( 1998 ), my output: to the ICC Profile for my Epson 2200 and the appropriate paper (this can be found on the Epson Install Disk), and the Printer Driver to No Color Management. My monitor is calibrated with a Colorvision Spyder and Optical Software. My prints look identical to my monitor. Photoshop Elements 2.0 is limited in many areas, but you can color manage as long as you have profiles for your monitor and printer in the correct windows XP folder. You can get to that folder by Rt. clicking on your XP desktop>Properties>Settings>Advanced>Color Management and select ADD. You have to make sure your ICC profiles are in the directory that the Add command brings up and then click on the ones you want and Add them to your Color Management box. Then when you go to print preview you will be able to select the one you want to use. The Monitor profile is applied automaticaly in PSE2 by Windows as long as you have the monitor profile you created in Adobe Gamma or Optical selected as your default monitor profile.
This process was covered in detail a few weeks ago in another thread. If you search "color management" you will find it.
Good Luck,
Scott

[sparty314]

You can get to that folder by Rt. clicking on your XP desktop>Properties>Settings>Advanced>Color Management and select ADD. You have to make sure your ICC profiles are in the directory that the Add command brings up and then click on the ones you want and Add them to your Color Management box. Then when you go to print preview you will be able to select the one you want to use. The Monitor profile is applied automaticaly in PSE2 by Windows as long as you have the monitor profile you created in Adobe Gamma or Optical selected as your default monitor profile.


Scott,

Thank you for your input on the suject. I will try it when I get home from work. Will I be able to find/download a color profile for the Frontier Minilab somewhere?

[MiG82]

You can go here and register for stage 1 colour management for free.
Stage 1 allows you to download icc colour profiles for various models of frontier minilabs somewhere in that site after you login.
http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/colour/

Beware though, I've heard that many labs use the sRGB colour space instead of using their full capabilities (which is dumb IMO). If I remember correctly, the minilabs are able to print bright greens and yellows quite beyond what the sRGB space describes. I can't remember their gamut at lower lightness levels.

[Wendy Lilygreen]

Hi,
If you are in the UK I can recommend Keynsham Photographic e-mail KEYNSHAMPHOTO@aol.com
They will send you on CD an ICC profile which you download onto your computer.
Get hold of a calibration print (Ihave one if you wish) get them to print one out, make your monitor look like their print and from then on it's easy. What you see on your monitor is what you get back from them.
They are very cheap too! and quick. the reason being is that you burn your photos to CD and post it to them.
Their web site (pending) is www.keynshamphoto.co.uk

Hope this helps.
Wendy

[dtrayers]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
Sorry, butI have to disagree with you on your characterization of Photoshop Elements 2.0 and your recommendation to not color manage with it.


You're quite correct that you can manage color with PSE, but the original question delt with printing at a third party lab.

If you have an accurate profile for your printer/ink/paper combination, by all means you can use PSE to manage the color. But if you don't have a printer profile, or you are using a printing service like the local Sam's Club, I still maintain that you are better off staying in the sRGB colorspace.

I too have a calibrated monitor, but I don't have any profiles for my Canon printer. I edit in sRGB and allow the printer to manage color (ICM = ON) and I also get prints that match my monitor.

[w10d]

sparty314 wrote:
Good question! Yes, I did talk to them and "glazed" eyes certainly describes the response. I know that it what I should expect, so I am really not surprised!

The 'glazed' look suggests sRGB may be the best profile to use when sending files for printing - mishandling ARGB could be nasty. Incidentally, the best way to avoid all risks of mis-managed colour is to supply files in the Lab colour mode, (assuming the lab can handle them!).