Brainstorming: a link to the original image

[c_by_sinus]

Hi users,
Let us say the following scenario:

1) A user found an image in my EE-gallery.
2) Now he wants the original image (high-resolution)
3) He goes to the button "click here to receive this photo" (not buy)
4) In fact this is the ee-commerce - part of EE
5) But there is not only paypal, email and so on, but also a dropdown-listbox "direct download - pay later (with an invoice)"
6) He clicks there

7) Now, behind this button, is a link to the real image, stored (maybe) in another place.
8) With hitting the button, the user in fact does go away from the EE-system, and enters another system, where only the images are and where the images are protected with a password - system.

9) Because he has the password (from another password-system), he can download the image.

What is wrong with this scenario and is it possible?
I ask therefore, because I see the power of EE, but because EE has not a built-in-download-password-system, I try to use EE and then add somewhere the password-system.

The thing with EE-commerce is: in the newspapers-area (like Stern, Helsingin Sanomat, Dagblad, Geo...) these users want of course not pay for an image before it is printed. But to have it, they want often download the real image.
When it is printed for real, they usualy send the owner a message and then he can send an invoice. Therefore the whole credit-card-stuff does not work allways for small agencies or single photographers.

Therefore I search for a good system, where a user can use EE for searching an image.
Once found, I am searching a clever and EASY way for the user to download this image. Of course this could be implemented into EE, but I guess, this is to complicated for me to create such a system (I am afraid).

But I heard, when we have an image - link, it should be easier to create a password-system, when we have simply a folder and images inside. Then the user must enter a password and he gets the image. And to create such a password-system only for a folder with images inside, this seems to be much easier then to implement this into EE.

When you have a EE-system, you can it also see this way:
1) I (Markus) look your images, scrolling through and maybe I find one, what I like.
2) I want have the high-resolution-image (the original) for downloading on my computer
3) I can do this, but must have a password or must register me
4) You, as the EE-admin, must be aware, that I have downloaded an image, and of course you must know, what image.
5) Then you can send me a bill or phone me or ...

Sorry for my bad English, sorry for maybe unstructured ideas, therefore I titled this thread as "brainstorming" ;)
I am sure, EE is a great tool, and if I am once able to track this problem (for me) down, then this would be like christmas and easter together ;)

Any ideas to track this down would be great, thanks in advance for ideas, solutions and so on.

Markus

[Pekka]

You have very good points there.

Based on your info, I have designed (not coded although 90% of code needed is already done in other parts of EE) an additional delivery system (EE module) that would work as you lay it out. It would consist of following features:

- user database (several rows of user data like billing address, title, company. Each user with one login)

- access database (selection of photo id's each user can download, or exhibitions they can download from).

- download tracker (good and bad downloads - matched to user)

- login tracker (log good and failed logins and login all attempts).

- cookie and session based self-expiring login.

- expiring password system. Each user has several passwords which you can send by mail like e.g. banks sometimes do. A pass list would be generated by EE and would look like

1. 0b13fbde55
2. 0f7d6da74b4ad8b
3. 0fee39cf54fb
4. 1b4ec7ec19
5. 659ffe5ac160
6. 0f181ed61
7. 9659906cd44c
etc.

Each time you download (or retry) you'll use a pass from list). EE has the list of good passes for each user and each time a pass is used it will expire immediately. EE will tell which pass nr. is to be used next. Depending on client you give one or two passes or 100. EE will notify when user is going to run out of passes so you can mail some more.

- EE commerce would handle the initial step of selecting a photo and getting its filename and path (this whole thing is actually an EE commerce template on steroids). The real filename and path will be obfuscated by ftp view system which downloads (with ftp) the photo to temp folder with highly crypted file name.

- When filename is ready to download, EE will keep it there a specified time and delete it automatically after that: "You have 30 minutes to download the photo, after that you will need to login again".

- all would be reported extensively.

- by the time this system is ready, EE will have "add to favourites" system which lets EE Commerce get several photos in one go.

- I would not like to do a member registration into EE, but as separate tool which you can refer to in emails.

In technical "area"one thing that I do not have yet is a definite way to get info that file is actually download. It is easy to mark a file downloaded when one clicks download button. But seeking info if the whole file is really successfully downloaded needs some research.

Also, it would be nice to change the obfuscated file name to real one while/before upload, but the point of obfuscation is that the filenames are so dense that no one could ever guess any of them (as there may be several on temp at same time) and placing the real name file on server temp even for 20 minutes makes it an easy hack.

After 1.5 is ready I'm ready to start coding this, so if you Markus have still interest on this it would be great to do some non-public beta testing of the features and design.

[TomKa]

Good news, Pekka !

This would be a fine system for photographers to propose, offer and to distribute pictures to potential customers.

What about sending the files via email to regular customers? When the message from the mail server comes back:
- successfully sent: mx.smartweb.ch "250 2.0.0 hA5GWKcR046690 Message accepted for delivery" -
you are sure that the picture is in the email box of the client.

[c_by_sinus]

Hi Pekka,
WOW! Sounds very cool. Thanks for listening!
From my point of view this seems for me so important, I must print out your answer, read it carefully, think about it and write back.
I think (I guess, also users like Tom do think so), when this is once ready, then your system can be very interesting also for people, who wants sell some pictures on this way. And I know, a lot of photographers do it or want do it in this way.
I will write some thought later, when I have fully understand your message.

And ... of course, I would be glad to help you with some "non-public beta testing of the features and design".

Thanks, Pekka
Markus

[MrChevy]

TomKa wrote:
Good news, Pekka !

This would be a fine system for photographers to propose, offer and to distribute pictures to potential customers.

What about sending the files via email to regular customers? When the message from the mail server comes back:
- successfully sent: mx.smartweb.ch "250 2.0.0 hA5GWKcR046690 Message accepted for delivery" -
you are sure that the picture is in the email box of the client.



I think that would be a good idea too Pekka.

TomKa,
Probably e-mail is a bad idea, many people's e-mail will NOT accept a very large file, and if it will and they get a couple files, then their e-mail space is full and they won't be able to receive any more until they delete to make room in their e-mail box again.

I have run into that before, receiving the message "mail box full, returned to sender" type stuff. or... sent a 3.1MB file and it is about done and get the message "file to big, 3MB limit, transfer canceled".

I think it would have to be downloaded directly to the receiving persons hard drive to work smoothly.

Ken

[seanspeng]

Pekka is always listening!!

I've been thinking the e-commerce side of EE for quite a long time. At first, I thought the Click here to Purchase is a good option, then again, I wish we could also have the Download the original image option simply because the print quality is not controlled by the customer - buyer.


Speaking of the email, I agree it is too limited. I would prefer a password protected download system.

[TomKa]

An option to send pictures via email is in the gallery 4images (http://www.4homepages.de/resources/Sites_in_Action/), here you put the desired pictures into a lighbox, and you will get a zipfile via email into your mailbox.

-Why email? In this way I can collect email addresses, I can send text together with my pictures, I can ask later on if I can help, I can put this customer on my monthly newsletter to send him links about new pictures in the gallery and so on.

Obviously the zipfile along with the email must be limited to, maybe, 2 or 3 mb. If somebody has a full or an abbandoned mailbox the email will bounce, but I'm not interested to communicate to such people, I'm interested to get in contact with potential buyers of my pictures.

The future and new EEmodule from Pekka to deliver the pictures together with a user database sounds very good, interested customers or user can always sign up for a newsletter if they want to be informed about new pictures.

Resolution and size of pictures.
Another problem here. Maybe somebody can give me some hints. My idea is to provide low resolution files on the web. If the customer needs a high resolution file I can provide a download via ftp. If I have 1000 high resolution pictures to sell, I must think about a dedicated server for my gallery, and so I have to put some money in it.

Markus - how do you manage this problem with your picture agency?

[c_by_sinus]

Hi Pekka, Hi Tom and hello to all others,
I try here to explain a bit, how it works now with our online-system. Bear in mind, this describes "only" our clients, for example online-pictures for families are completely different.

Bear in mind, we (www.sinus.ch) are a small image-agency. I know, that at least in Europe, there are a lot of small agencies out there, and also there are a lot of single photographers, what try to sell images.
Our clients are journalists, image-researcher, advertisments-companies.

Most clients of us are people, who works for a newspaper/magazins. A lot of such newspapers (Stern, Frankfurter Allgemeine, Helsingin Sanomat, GEO, NZZ ...) have contracts with big agencies (like Keystone, Getty images ...).
Let us say, a journalist writes an article about coffee, because the price has dropped.
The text is finnished and he transmit this to the newspaper.

Now, the image-researcher of this magazin (sometimes also the journalist) tries to find a good image about coffee, maybe coffe-cup, coffee-table, coffee-shop, coffeeplants ..... Let us call him Aimo.
IF he does not find a good image (or an image, what has not been seen often), he will come to small agencies, photographers to find such a good image.
Remeber, ofter the time is short, maybe it is middle in the night, or he must have an image in 1 hour, because the deadline of this article.

Therefore Aimo comes (for example) to us.
He has not the time, to look into a (for him ) new category-system, where he must first try to look, in what category his image could be (we used to have such a category-system online).

Therefore Aimo want a good and simple search-page.
Then he enter the keyword "coffee" and maybe another one like plants, because he thinks at an image from a coffee-plant.

Cool, 40 minutes until the deadline, he found a great image. He reads quickly the headline and the description of this image, to be sure, that this is really a coffee-plant and where. Then he hit a button to see a bigger preview of this image, this time the bigger previw has a watersign. This does not matter for him.
But what the heck, is the format of the printed image? He does not know, therefore he decides to choose two images, one in portrait, one in landscape format.

Now hurry up, download these two, and give the images to the layouter, and then ... his girl Carla is waiting to him ;)

Now, in this case, he (means his newspaper-company) is of course willing to pay this image. But this is for Aimo not important. The only thing he wants, are the images, but because he does not know the real size of the image, what will be printed at the end, he wants the images as good as possible.

Let us say, he is the first time on our system, unfortunately. Then he tries to download the first of two image and gets the information, that he must first register.
Merde!
"Hey Bill, do we have a login-password from sinus? Not? grrr.."

OK, register, ah, via email, that is quickly ... wait, give the name/adress/mail from my company ... click, cool, a mail has arrived, yes, from sinus.
"Hey Bill, we have now a login-password from sinus!"

Now Aimo downloads both images, they are jpgs, and one has 800 KB, the other 1,2 MB. Cool, this is sure "heavy" enough ... ah, here they are.

"Bill, wish you a nice evening, I dropped the images, what you should use, in your folder, good night!"

"OK, thanks, Aimo ... hmmm, and a nice evening with Carla ... "

Well, the end of this story:

a) The newspaper used only one image

b) We as the admins have seen a new registration (we got this by mail)

c) We have seen, that the new user has downloaded two images (we got also an email, but could look also on the logfile on the server)

d) Now we can decide, want we send this company an invoice, or want we call for ask, if both have been printed (we do only make a bill for used images), or very often, we will get in the next days a message from this newspapers, that they had used an image

OK, this is a typical "sell-images-flow" here with sinus in Switzerland, but I am quite sure, this is also true for a lot of countries in Europe.

Of course this is something different, than "only" show images for friends, families (though I do this too).

When I look now at this scenario, I would say, when I look at EE:

1) The search-page should be very easy and of course should go also over all exhibitions. Aimo wants enter his keywords in a field and get some results

2) The images should have a headline and a description under/near the image (in our case iptc-fields)

2) The images should be downloadable immediatly. Aimo could NOT wait on a message like "please give us a mail, we will send you the image as soon as possible. Because sometimes all the original-files are quite big, it would be great, if we could have even the images on different places (servers), I understand, this is possible simply with different links.

3) The image should be in such a quality, that it could be printed in a good quality (300 dpi) for A5 (13x18cm) or even bigger (we make our images downloadable as jpgs, and in biggest size, about 500 KB - 1.5 MB each.
Tom, see at the bottom for some more infos, please

4) The paying-system must be very easy. There could be a system with Paypal, credit card and so on, but for our client a download WITHOUT direct paying is a MUST. Aimo would have never paid with his own credit card (hey, Carla iw waiting ;), and he has usually not a credit card from his company. But he is willing, to pay the image afterwards, no problem.

5) Because such a user does not pay direct, sinus must be aware, that a user has downloaded images. We must know, what user, and what images. With these informations we will get our money for sure (there are possibilites to "hack" such a system, but it is like in a shop, 3% will be stolen). We and others, what I know, made very good expierience with such systems.

Therefore, Pekka, in our system, your system

"...expiring password system. Each user has several passwords ..."

would be not necessary, and to be honest, could be also avoid some image-researchers to download images (Hey Bill, where is the dammned expiring-list .... grrrrrr, go to the agency "Saturn", they have login-password "bill - congo" I can remember ..."

But I think, as I have understood it right, all other points, what you have given for EE, a very interesting. Thanks a lot for thinking about this.
As I have written, I am sure, if you could do also such a system into your great EE, your system would become very interesting for such groups like we are (small and medium-sized agencies, photographer and so on).

Therefore, Pekka, as you have offered and as I have written, I would be happy to help you test some beta-systems (as far as I can).

Thanks all for listening and SORRY for have written so a long message!!!
Markus

For Tom:
Hallo Tom, yes you are right, when you works with the original-files, the server -space can be a problem. If you must have aobut 1 GB or so, it tends to be very expensive. We store oure images on the server for downloading as jpgs, between 500KB - 1.5 MB.
Lets take 1 MB as "Durchschnitt", so we have for 1000 images 1000 MB, gives 1GB. If you have 5000 images, 5 GB and so on. I think, this is possible with not to much costs. And as I understood Pekka right, it would be very good possible to have different servers? Then we could put for example 500 images here, 500 there and so on. But to have such a system, a password protected download system, this would be really cool, and from my point of view, when this could be done, toghether with the other possibilities from EE, we had a GREAT system, much better than 4images, for example.
When this could be done, then we could use EE for private, for selling images with different possibilities, for direct downloadable-system, simply cool. Pekka makes also the Lightbox (on your request), when this is also done, to be honest, then EE is simply and realy the BEST. But my scenario, for us, is really very typical, and "so läuft es jedenfalls bei uns". The image-researcher want have an image in high-res-quality, he wants it now, and he wants it have without paying now, but later (when it is clear, how or if he has used the image).
I am realy very curious, what Pekka will create!
Machs gut, Markus

[c_by_sinus]

... and sorry for the white space at the bottom ...
Markus

[MrChevy]

Nice explanation Markus ! Enjoyed reading it.

[kd_121]

Funny, I was thinking about this today before reading this! This will be a great option to have in EE and I like everything that I have read so far about it. I am split as to which would be better, the expiring pass list or just individual passwords for each member. Maybe the option to do it either way?

It would be nice to have a new button under the image that jumps straight to this EE commerce template. This way you might have multiplay buttons, one for "Download now", one for "Download now (Pay with Paypal,)" and one "Order print with Paypal." This would be great!

As for recieving the image(s) i think it would be important to have both download ftp and email option. The user could choose. Many normal POP email accounts have no problem recieving 20+mb emails. It could also include a little logic where if the email address is @hotmail.com or @yahoo.com (or the other major players) it would recommend them to d/l instead and notify them of their size limitation.

As for Markus saying how important the search feature is, I have already added a search box to my EE header that automatically searches all fields. This way it is displayed on all pages. You can see it here: (please note that I have not keyworded all of my images yet, but you can still try by typing in a location like Vancovuer or Hawaii or something else such as a shutter speed)

http://2realeyes.com

One thing that would be nice to add to this is a separate search page. That we could make some "Search" text in the header a link to the more advanced search page. It could also work that if the search button was pressed without entering any text at all, it would default to load the adv search page.

I too, Pekka, will gladly beta test these features and more! :-)

Many thanks to everyone contributing ideas and participating in making EE such an amazing system to use!!!
Best,
Kd

[c_by_sinus]

Hi kd,
Thanks to jump in.
Yes, your search option at the beginning is cool, simply go to your site, enter a keyword and hit search (even Enter works!) and as a result we have all images with this keyword.
This shows me, what can be done in EE.
Just a question, I tried "leaves" and then I tried "face". Search each from this keywords works, but not together, like in Google:

leaves face

Could this also be done into your simple search-field or has the user to choose a sort of "extended search"?

Sorry to ask, but I have not got deep into the search- possibilities from EE yet.

I am glad to hear, that also for you the download/password-option would be important.

Thanks
Markus

[kd_121]

Hi Markus,
Right now I don't have the keywords in for most of the images. I thought that you would be able to do multiple words in the search, but i tried "leaves hawaii" and "leaves + hawaii" and neither of those worked.

What I have done with the search is just using the built in search from EE so it depends on the functionaliy of EE's search, but right now it seems it is limited to one term (or group of words) at a time.

I think Pekka will have to fill us in on that and what else is possible.

Best,
Kd

[Pekka]

c_by_sinus wrote:
Hi kd,
Thanks to jump in.
Yes, your search option at the beginning is cool, simply go to your site, enter a keyword and hit search (even Enter works!) and as a result we have all images with this keyword.
This shows me, what can be done in EE.
Just a question, I tried "leaves" and then I tried "face". Search each from this keywords works, but not together, like in Google:

leaves face

Could this also be done into your simple search-field or has the user to choose a sort of "extended search"?


I can make + sign combine keywords, this needs a little code addition. Any other required conventions in search dialogs?

Sorry for not commenting more now, I'm bit busy. Just finished making login+pass security for all editors and now I'm working on direct IMAGE->XMP->EXIF converter (base code works already - looks promising).

[c_by_sinus]

Hi Pekka,
Thanks again for listening.
Of course I can speak only for me:

I know, in the web-edition from Portfolio and also from a second search-tool (can not remember just now), they both have the same like Google.

And I personally like this with different fields (but I am also happy, if you would enhance one field, if several fields are to much)

Field one: like Google, where each word means AND like:
music concert >means must be music AND concert

Field two: NOT with word OR like:
rock pop

Usually (like in google) a user enters only one or several keywords into field one, field two stays empty

But if he would enter field two, in our case above he would find all music concerts except (NOT) rock or pop-concerts.

A kiss-solution would be for me, to offer the extended search, like in Google (with additional "exact phrase" and a OR-keyword search.

The link for this page is
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en

where I spoke about the 4 field in the blue zone. As I said, usually a user does enter only in one field (maybe including you?), but if he must or want, he can take also the help of the other fields, for example "hidden" (like in google) with a extendes search.

But of course, if your proposal with + is much easier for you, that is also OK.
I think only, if you would do it like such a big search-engine like google, than the search-options from EE would be for most users familiar, intuitiv.

We have here in Switzerland another search-engine (www.search.ch) where we must enter +music +concert to "join" these two keywords (for example) and each second time I forgot this, because mostly I search with google.

Thanks, only my 2cents
Markus

[kd_121]

Yes, I agree that is would be best if it was like google search as much as easilly possible.

One feature with the search that would be nice is if there was an option for choosing the type of search results page. I like the way it currently displays all search result images as an exhibition, but I would also be nice to be able to have it display a list of exhibitions that match the results. This would (or could as an option) include a listing of all photos that match in each exhibition and their thumbnails. So it would be like this:

Search Results:

1.) This that certian exhibition.
Photo 1, Photo 3, Photo 8, etc.
(thumb) (thumb) (thumb) (etc.)

2.) Some other exhibition.
Photo 14
(thumb)

3.) ....

and so on.

Another nice function would be ablilty to have sort options before the search. I have a link in my header that does a search to just dislay ALL images on the site and I noticed right now it seems to have some random sorting. It would be good to have the option to easily sort during the search to say sort by exhibitions, categories, date, etc. I assume this might already be possible by adding another drop down and having it just post the sort info for the page, but I havn't messed with that yet.

Best,
Kd