Bands!!!

[MulderMan]

A few weeks ago I agreed to shoot a band that goes to my school (I have a reputation as the schools photographer...), for general publicity shots etc.
I didnt really lay down any terms, just made clear that I will provide web suitable images without watermark that shall be attributed to me.
I checked their myspace the other day to see how they are going on, and found they removed the copyright to me, and have performed horrible photoshops on the images! :(

I asked about what they are doing, and I got the "you took the pictures for us, so they belong to us speech."

I cant take it any further, and its not something Ill loose sleep over, just annoying about peoples attitudes to my work, and how they can make it 10x worse 'playing' in PS.

I think next time contracts and releases are inorder, even for the smallest favour now!

Bands...

[coreypolis]

you can contact myspace and tell them off copyright infringement and show the origianls

send an invoice, but they won't pay.

A good lesson early on that you need everything in writting.

[MulderMan]

I didnt really want to make a fuss about it, just looking to see if this is quite a common problem with photogs.

I tend to do alot of free work with local bands (they know im usually free and like the quality of my work, however ameatuer!) etc, and there has never been a problem, to a point where obiously naivety gets the better of me!

[RLRiley]

Yes, this is a huge problem. Its funny how bands that are so against all these music sharing services which basically allow users to steal their music without paying for it have no problem doing the same thing to photographers.

I asked about what they are doing, and I got the "you took the pictures for us, so they belong to us speech."

Actually, unless you specifically signed away the rights to the images, they belong to you, not the band. How far you want to push it regarding legal action is up to you but, at a minimum I would contact myspace, make them aware of the copyright infringement, and have the pictures taken down.

[Steve Parr]

First, get everything in writing. I shoot the bands of many friends, and I get everything in writing. Always. Keeps everyone honest. One band doesn't even pay me (they're one of two "guinea pig" bands I shoot). Still, we have our agreement in writing.

Second, and has been suggested, contact MySpace.com. They've got little patience for copyright infringement, and are known to act pretty quickly, often without contacting the offender. If they don't, they open themselves up to litigation if you're able to provide proof that the images are yours.

And, last, let this be a valuable lesson...

[PostShawn]

I might be shooting a band soon. I was just wondering if there is somewhere that has a template of some sort of form to use for this purpose?

I work in the video field and I know there are ton for that. I guess I can use the same forms. One frame or 30 frames, it shouldn't matter on the form when as long as it states that all rights to be used in any way possible is owned by me.

[bethany138]

Same thing here - I have not been able to find a suitable contract for bands or advertising. I have a solid wedding contract though. Anybody have any they would like to share?

[PhotosGuy]

Talk to Dwight?
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=178946

[amonline]

What I suggested in this thread worked like a charm: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1794918&highlight=My+Space#post1794918

You may need to read all my replies in that thread...

[DaveG]

A few weeks ago I agreed to shoot a band that goes to my school (I have a reputation as the schools photographer...), for general publicity shots etc.
I didnt really lay down any terms, just made clear that I will provide web suitable images without watermark that shall be attributed to me.
I checked their myspace the other day to see how they are going on, and found they removed the copyright to me, and have performed horrible photoshops on the images! :(

I asked about what they are doing, and I got the "you took the pictures for us, so they belong to us speech."

I cant take it any further, and its not something Ill loose sleep over, just annoying about peoples attitudes to my work, and how they can make it 10x worse 'playing' in PS.

I think next time contracts and releases are inorder, even for the smallest favour now!

Bands...


The first thing to understand about bands is that they are not to be trusted. They have no money (THNM) and they have fewer concerns about messing people around.

When I'm asked to photograph a band I insist that full payment be made BEFORE I take a shot. That of course means that I don't shoot bands (THNM). Normally you can shoot something and require that the payment is due on delivery. The problem with doing that - at least when a band's involved - is by the time you get everything ready for them they've changed drummers. The funding for the shoot is almost certainly "Everyone puts in X$ into the pot." but the old drummer hasn't paid and the new drummer won't (THNM). One band member has some money but the other two drank their's last night. Of course they have a gig in a couple of weeks and they can pay you then. By then ALL of them have drank their money and they've been through two more drummers. Take a wild stab at who gets screwed?

Unless you are doing the shoot for fun, get the money up front. Don't waste your time with lots of legalize in a contract, they will just ignore it, and more to the point you can't get blood from a stone (THNM). I'd put all kinds of copyright info in the metadata though. The band can't see it there, so they won't know about it, and if the band gets lucky and becomes successful then you have some claim to the work then, even if it means that you have the right to sell it to other parties. Now the odds of this happening are so great that it's just a giggle to do, but if you're shooting low end bands there's not a lot on your plate, so take the time.

As far as the client doing post production work to your stuff, get used to it, and I think that this applies to all commercial work. If you don't want anyone to touch your stuff in an artistic sense, then don't do anything for money.

It angers me when I hear about photogs who think that commercial work should be treated like fine art. Commercial work = work used for commerce. And commerce may require that the shot be cropped, overprinted, colour enhanced or desaturated, and it's an art director (amateur or pro) who makes those choices (and many more), not the photographer. Do you think that anyone would hire you if you insisted and contracted that your stuff must remain as you submitted it, or if you got to approve all post production work? As long as you get paid, what do you care?

By the way if you got paid then the band (or any commercial client) is correct when they said "you took the pictures for us, so they belong to us." You could have controls in your contract, but then you wouldn't get any work.

[PhotosGuy]

By then ALL of them have drank their money and they've been through two more drummers. Take a wild stab at who gets screwed? :D

[fivefish]

Everything DaveG said... well said and true.

Bands are broke unless they're a major MAJOR band. And then, even a band under a small indie label means squat, because that's all it meant... doesn't mean they're big-time or making money.

And if you're working with a band, get paid first, or structure it for 50%-40%-10% payment schedule, and make sure you put PROOFS all over it until they pay the last 10% owe to you.

Q: What's the difference between a [drummer, guitar player, band member] and a Pizza?
A: A Pizza can feed a family of four.

[Steve Parr]

The first thing to understand about bands is that they are not to be trusted. They have no money (THNM) and they have fewer concerns about messing people around.

When I'm asked to photograph a band I insist that full payment be made BEFORE I take a shot. That of course means that I don't shoot bands (THNM). Normally you can shoot something and require that the payment is due on delivery. The problem with doing that - at least when a band's involved - is by the time you get everything ready for them they've changed drummers. The funding for the shoot is almost certainly "Everyone puts in X$ into the pot." but the old drummer hasn't paid and the new drummer won't (THNM). One band member has some money but the other two drank their's last night. Of course they have a gig in a couple of weeks and they can pay you then. By then ALL of them have drank their money and they've been through two more drummers. Take a wild stab at who gets screwed?

Unless you are doing the shoot for fun, get the money up front. Don't waste your time with lots of legalize in a contract, they will just ignore it, and more to the point you can't get blood from a stone (THNM). I'd put all kinds of copyright info in the metadata though. The band can't see it there, so they won't know about it, and if the band gets lucky and becomes successful then you have some claim to the work then, even if it means that you have the right to sell it to other parties. Now the odds of this happening are so great that it's just a giggle to do, but if you're shooting low end bands there's not a lot on your plate, so take the time.

As far as the client doing post production work to your stuff, get used to it, and I think that this applies to all commercial work. If you don't want anyone to touch your stuff in an artistic sense, then don't do anything for money.

It angers me when I hear about photogs who think that commercial work should be treated like fine art. Commercial work = work used for commerce. And commerce may require that the shot be cropped, overprinted, colour enhanced or desaturated, and it's an art director (amateur or pro) who makes those choices (and many more), not the photographer. Do you think that anyone would hire you if you insisted and contracted that your stuff must remain as you submitted it, or if you got to approve all post production work? As long as you get paid, what do you care?

By the way if you got paid then the band (or any commercial client) is correct when they said "you took the pictures for us, so they belong to us." You could have controls in your contract, but then you wouldn't get any work.

Wow.

I don't even know where to start, so I'll just say that there's almost nothing in that post that could be considered even remotely accurate.

It starts with the "they are not to be trusted" comment, and it goes downhill from there...

[Jaymz]

Wow.

I don't even know where to start, so I'll just say that there's almost nothing in that post that could be considered even remotely accurate.

It starts with the "they are not to be trusted" comment, and it goes downhill from there...

I have to agree with Steve on this one. I have shot many 'just starting' bands and have never had any problems with being paid or mis-use of images. Next time someone gets caught taking indecent photos of little kids, I certainly hope no one says "photographers are not to be trusted". :evil:

[BruceC]

I think it has to do with the type of people.

[Little Fish]

Getting back to the original post, it sounds like this falls into the "live and learn" category. Don't contact MySpace and ask them to remove the photos or complain about copyright infringement--you go to school with these guys and it's not worth the hassle of having to deal with them trashing your name.

And here's a lesson that I think most of us here have learned. People seem to value things based on how much it cost them. If you give away something for free, be prepared for a lot of folks to fail to realize the value of your gift. When they pay for something they then treat it as an item of value. There are a lot of folks (and bands) who no longer get free photos from me because they never bothered to pass along a simple "Thank you".

[Steve Parr]

I think it has to do with the type of people.

And what "type" would that be?

[BruceC]

Bum wana-be jerks and good honest people.

[Steve Parr]

Bum wana-be jerks and good honest people.

So, basically, the kinds of people you meet just about anywhere...

:rolleyes:

[BruceC]

I don't know. There are just a lot of slim bags in the music industry. I know a few personally. I'm sure there are good ones too, likely the ones you work with.

[mpilar]

Having spent quite a bit of time in the music industry, I think it really comes down to a lack of knowledge on the part of the bands and poor guidance from their management. Very few people realize that when they hire a photographer to take pictures, that they're not free to do what they want with those pictures afterwards. Most musicians that I've met have never made the connection between their art and the art of the photographer but prove quite receptive when it's explained to them.

I know I did, it never would have dawned on me that a photo that somebody else took for me doesn't actually belong to me but that I only have 'certain' rights to use it. At the same time, I would have flipped if someone took my music and modified it when I was playing or the music of a client when I was editing and considered it 'theirs'. I had that explained patiently to me once by my manager and it made sense.

In the end, I think calmly explaining the situation, comparing the art of music to the art of photography to the band goes a long way.

Additionally...most of the "slime bags" in the industry I've met haven't been the musicians but the people in large record companies...the larger the company, the more prominent.
-Mike

[Steve Parr]

Additionally...most of the "slime bags" in the industry I've met haven't been the musicians but the people in large record companies...the larger the company, the more prominent.

Well put, Mike...

[DaveG]

Wow.

I don't even know where to start, so I'll just say that there's almost nothing in that post that could be considered even remotely accurate.

It starts with the "they are not to be trusted" comment, and it goes downhill from there...

Well that's my experience with a fair bit of tongue in cheek thrown in. But if it works OK for you then by all means trust bands. Also trust people who tell you that the cheque is in the mail, that the land they want to sell in New Orleans has no water problems, that that politican from Nigeria really has that money he talks about in the junk mail, and that Microsoft actually inovates. And get back to us as to how all of that works out.

[dave13]

I'm working with a band for the cd pictures and cover art. Even though I have been friends with this guy for almost 20 years, there is a contract in place stating that he gets to use these images for the cd, advertising, posters etc, provided my name is always credited. I told him I would even do it for free, as a friend. He still offered to pay me.

You can trust bands, just use common sense and get everything in writing and notorized.

[Steve Parr]

Well that's my experience with a fair bit of tongue in cheek thrown in. But if it works OK for you then by all means trust bands. Also trust people who tell you that the cheque is in the mail, that the land they want to sell in New Orleans has no water problems, that that politican from Nigeria really has that money he talks about in the junk mail, and that Microsoft actually inovates. And get back to us as to how all of that works out.

It works out fine, thankyouverymuch. But, then again, I approach it intelligently.

You sound like someone who (perhaps), didn't, and got shafted. Fair enough.

I played in a band for nine years. When we recorded, we paid the studio. When we had pictures taken, we paid the photographer.

Your comparing musicians to all of the other things you do in the above post is just ridiculous. That's like saying that, because someone gets salmonella poisoning, all chicken is bad.

C'mon, man, at least make an attempt to be taken seriously.

A good correlation could be drawn to photographers. The latest hubbub over at Reuters is a good example. If your logic were accurate, every photographer in the world is seedy and dishonest. Do you believe that's true?

I sure don't...

[Steve Parr]

You can trust bands, just use common sense and get everything in writing and notorized.

Yep.

Very well stated...

[Gerry@Rick]

Hi Mulderman,

As some have already said treat this as part of a learning curve.

If you're planning to make photography your career then think through your business procedure and objectives. Have some order/contract forms with your terms of business on them made into a pad. And invoice forms that repeat your terms of business. If you know a reasonable solicitor ask him to draw them up for you after discussing what you want to do - it has the right terminology when written by an expert. Then as you discuss each job you can write the details into the order form and give the client a copy. They're in no doubt then that you mean business.

As you get to know which clients to trust and which ones not to, don't be afraid to turn away work from people who've proved they aren't worthy of your work, chasing them for money is more trouble than it's worth.

There's a lot more to it that that but if they are still in print read 'The Freelance Photographer's Handbook' by Fredrik Bodin and 'Sell & Resell Your Photos' by Rohn Engh. I'd been in business for quite a while before I came across these two books and found that I already had incorporated many of their ideas but there were more useful tips worth having.

But whatever else you do enjoy it, there's no point in doing something solely for money you have to be happy doing it. I'm still having a great time taking pictures and earning money.:lol:

[Statement]

There are a lot of folks (and bands) who no longer get free photos from me because they never bothered to pass along a simple "Thank you".

I'm a busboy at a local restaurant now and I think its crazy how little manners people show sometimes. We give a basket of cheese/crackers to the customers as they are seated, and we are supposed to take them before they get their entree. We ask "are you finished with the crackers?" before we remove them from the table, and some people have acted so offended and simply said "no" with a glare.

I was talking to my coworker and we agreed that manners should be taught in school because some parents just don't care about them.

[ACDCROCKS]

I had a band member post an image with the copyright, I contacted MYSPACE and nothing happened. I talked to the kid, the talked to me before he changed the picture. lol. yes, Always have acontract with a witness stating you own the copyright since you are doing them for FREE.