*Unleashing The Magic*

[xxlt]

My question is...If I start using the "M" mode exclusively on the DRebel and shoot only using this method. Naturally with lots of trial and error. Will I eventually see a marked improvement overall of my photo skills"....meaning better pictures.

bill in Ohio/ always willing to learn

[vvizard]

I'm a newbie myself trying to figure out "M" from time to time on my 10D. I find it very hard. I usually just us Av for the most (or Tv if the situation demands it). What I find hard about "M" is that I have no way to check the exposure until after I've taken the shot. It's not that of a big deal, cause my 10D always gives med satisfactory results in decent lightning. Only time I use "M" now is for nightshots. www.vvizard.net/pics/vvizard/ will show some of my first shots with the 10D (most of them taken at night with "M").

On the first camera I had (the one before my 10D) I used "M" all the time. It was a Minolta DiMage 7i (yeah I'm kind of new in this game, have never shot anything else than a digicam). It had a EVF (electronical-viewfiender) instead of an optical. I prefer an optical, no arguing about that (for my part), but the EVF have some advantages. The biggest maybe, is that you see the effect of changing shutter/aparture right in the viewfinder (or LCD) while composing the shot. That I miss with a DSLR.

[defordphoto]

You may learn more technical stuff about photography, but it won't help you at all the learn more about your camera. The best way to learn your camera is to learn what it can do and what it can't. Learn its limitations and work within those limitations to maximize your talent.

Read, read, read. There is a new magazine out (paper) that's called Digital Photo Pro. Looks to be pretty good so far with some great articles. You might check that out.

Get out and shoot and don't be afraid to experiment. Go against the grain and the rules and shoot what you want. If the rules say 1/125 f8. then shoot 1/15 at F32, or whatever. It's digital, you're not wasting film. Go wild and get creative. It's a freaking blast to shoot these cameras.

[dtrayers]

vvizard wrote:
What I find hard about "M" is that I have no way to check the exposure until after I've taken the shot.

You can adjust the exposure by watching the pointer under the -2...-1...0...+1...+2 in the viewfinder. Pick an aperture, then adjust the shutter speed until the pointer is under the center mark and you should be at the correct exposure.

Keep in mind that in manual the exposure mode is center-weighted, not spot or partial. And like any other mode (Av, Tv, P, Auto, etc.) you really can't know the exposure until you look at the histogram.

I like the way it works, it's like shooting with my old Minolta XG-1. You don't have to use another mode for exposure compenstation; you just put the pointer to the right of center for over-exposure, and to the left for under. The nice thing is that you don't have to remember to switch the exposure compensation back.

The last part I like is that it slows me down. I take a little more time for composition and to study the scene for the best exposure.

[vvizard]

Cool! Thanks for the info. Didn't know this. That can make me use "M" with great success I think. But on the other hand, that raises another question in my little mind. What's the big point about "M" if you're gonna follow what the camera say? Won't the exposure then be exactly what the camera would have used in "Av" or "Tv", if I chose the same aparture or shutter-time (depending on program)? And my take is that in Av, the camera can set the exposure helluva lot faster than I can in "M" =)

[RichardtheSane]

vvizard wrote:
What's the big point about "M" if you're gonna follow what the camera say?
Because you don't have to do what the camera says :) I think the big point is in TV, AV and P then you dont get a choice - the camera tells you what it's going to do. In manual you have full control over the shot. The cameras meter is good, but high contrast situations, and scenes where there are a lot of reflections are just two occasions that would probably fool the camera meter. Then I would meter from grey card, or even some nearby grass/tarmac and use those settings on manual (fine tuning exposure with the histogram).
Those who use a seperate light meter would dial in the settings on manual too.

It's all about control :)

[xxlt]

Thanks Everyone for the advice! :)
I'll keep reading and shootin....always looking for the magic and always checking this forum.

bill from Ohio

[minicooper]

Remember that the camera is just a machine- it does not 'know' what you are trying to acheive. i would say that 90% of the photo's I take use a different exposure to what the camera would have me use. To my mind, there is no point havng an slr if you are going to let the camera make all your decisions for you. stick the camera on 'M' and leave it there I say. Your exposures might be a little hit and miss to start with, but you will learn infinitly quicker this way.

tom

[CyberDyneSystems]

By using AV and TV mode. and even P mode and then using the two dials to roll exposure copensation, aperture and shutter speed up and down you can acheive pretty much anything that setting to "M" would accomplish.. and you can do it while having the cameras built in exposure features ready to take over the job from you in a fraction of a second should soethung fast occur that won't allow you the opportunity to make the manual adjustment.

Play around with P, AV and TV for a while and get used to tweeking with the dials for manual control...this will allow you to learn what the manual controls do and why you would use them over the camera's decisions. It will go a long way towards allowing you too *Unleash The Magic* without so many mistakes along the way :)

I guess my philosophy on this is the opposite of minicoopers.. but I don't think either of us is right or wrong. I just think that if all those years of Canon technology improvements are packed into this camera.. why turn it all off and use it like a circa 1960s manual 35mm SLR?

[Longwatcher]

You might want to try the following. It works for me.
Shoot the first two or three shots in P mode, review them for histogram and what the camera said.

Then go to manual using the previous "P" mode settings and play around that area for awhile (also using Av and Tv for practice)

By doing this you get used to what settings work when. Thus it becomes a teaching tool so you can learn what settings work when. This is how I relearned how f-stop and shutter relate to each other after a 20 year hiatus. I love digital (my savings account doesn't, but I do)

Note: I default my manual settings to 1/125 at f8 because I found that works best for ME and I can adjust quickly from there based on the results of the histogram.

Final note: Manual becomes necessary in getting dramatic effects and playing with IR filters.

[iwatkins]

I'm with CDS here. I tend to stick with Av or Tv mode and roll my own compensations based on what the camera is telling me.

If something sudden does happen, I can let the camera make it's best effort. It isn't often wrong.

Of course, I still mess about with exposure settings like there is no tomorrow (bracket tempestuously :)) in the vain hope that the shot comes out much better/different than what I see, because it is free :)

The only time I don't do this is for land/skyscape photography and especially sunsets. Here I do go for a full manual setup. This is because I tend to use various filters (mainly ND grads), have the camera on a tripod and have plenty of time to get it right/experiment.

I've even dug out my old handheld lightmeter (that does spot metering) and this will often do a better job than what the 10D metering is telling me when it gets really late in a sunset. I can very quickly take three or four readings with a hand held meter (and take the average but slightly on the underexposed side) without having to mess up my framing by moving the camera around on the tripod just to get a meter reading.

Even so, as long as you understand what the various metering modes on the camera are telling you and you take heed of this alongside knowing its limitations, you will still get a well exposed shot.

CDS is bang on though, there is no right answer. Do whatever gives *you* the best results and suits the way you shoot. I like to take my time and shoot slowly (landscapes etc.) but others need to get the shot off as quick as possible (e.g. motorsport etc.). The only time there is a right answer is when you have no choice at all, and that was back in the days of early P&S digital cameras....

Cheers

Ian

[maderito]

I'm glad this thread came along -- I was wondering what “creative zones” people use under various circumstances. Thanks to CDS, iwatkins and others for valuable insights.

When I prefer Manual…
One situation that continues to challenge me is settings where the 10D computes an exposure setting that varies significantly as you view different parts of the scene even though the overall lighting is constant. In my world of shooting, this happens more frequently with landscapes. If I nail the picture on one shot (with a good histogram), I can lose it on the next shot as I refocus on a different part of the scene. So I switch to manual mode. I can then hold the exposure constant while taking different shots OR add exposure compensation (by changing aperture or shutter speed as the scene requires) while keeping track of how far I’ve moved from the original exposure setting. The viewfinder gives good feedback on how much compensation I’m using as I roll the dials. Using manual in this fashion assumes that overall lighting remains approximately constant for the important portions of your intended shot. FEL (focus exposure lock) doesn’t really do the job here since the lock is only good for a finite time period.

More generally, any scene in which lighting is constant seems to cry out for at least considering manual mode.

[defordphoto]

Creative Zones! Oh my, that will display a full can of worms. Some people think the creative zones are the devil himself reborn! Actually they aren't all that useful for some of us, but I have found that by playing with a few of them, knowing what their default settings and goals are, that there are some circumstances where I can flip right over to one of them and actually find it useful.

Most folks wish Canon would have let us program our own creative zones. Personally I think that's an awesome idea, but in the meantime, I do use them, but very rarely.

[maderito]

RFMSports wrote:
Creative Zones! Oh my, that will display a full can of worms. Some people think the creative zones are the devil himself reborn! . . .I do use them, but very rarely.

Jim,

Av, Tv and manual are part of the creative zones (as opposed to the "auto" and six "scene" exposure modes). You don't use Av, Tv, or manual often?

[AliasMoze]

All-manual was my preferred way of shooting, until I got a DSLR. A 300D or 10D is not really all-manual, as there is no manual focus aid and no spot meter :( So I shoot in AV mode most of the time and ride the exposure compensation a bit. And I shoot RAW.

[Dead Head]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
vvizard wrote:
Cool! Thanks for the info. Didn't know this. That can make me use "M" with great success I think. But on the other hand, that raises another question in my little mind. What's the big point about "M" if you're gonna follow what the camera say? Won't the exposure then be exactly what the camera would have used in "Av" or "Tv", if I chose the same aparture or shutter-time (depending on program)? And my take is that in Av, the camera can set the exposure helluva lot faster than I can in "M" =)
The camera meter and any incident or reflected light meter is calibrated for 18% grey. Most scenes average out to 18% grey, so usually your camera meter does a pretty good job of exposure on its own. There are however many siuations where the meter is correct for 18% grey but not for your intended image. Snow, a black suit, landscapes with a bright blue sky are examples. You have to read the camera or light meter reading and then decide how your scene differs from 18% grey. Meter readings must be interpreted. Black/dark objects need to be exposed less and white/light colored objects need to be exposed more then the meter would have you believe. The majority of pictures I took in this gallery ( http://www.pbase.com/scottbergerphoto/green_wood_cemetary&page=1) would have been terribly overexposed in the blue sky if I followed the camera meter or the incident meter I was using. The relative darker landscape told the camera meter to give more exposure, which would have resulted in a white sky. That's why using Manual exposure and understanding what the camera meter is telling you is critical to getting correctly exposed pictures.
I highly recommend reading:" The Confused Photographers Guide to the Zone System", by Farzad.
Enjoy,
Scott

Just walking out of the darkroom and coming from a black & white background, this is the way I would approach it. Even using the computer to "punch up" a photograph is a lot like dodging and burning in the darkroom.

[CyberDyneSystems]

RFMSports wrote:
Creative Zones! Oh my, that will display a full can of worms. Some people think the creative zones are the devil himself reborn! Actually they aren't all that useful for some of us, but I have found that by playing with a few of them, knowing what their default settings and goals are, that there are some circumstances where I can flip right over to one of them and actually find it useful.

Most folks wish Canon would have let us program our own creative zones. Personally I think that's an awesome idea, but in the meantime, I do use them, but very rarely.

I think you have your zones in a muddle :D

I bet you use the "Creative" zone most of the time :)

That's Manual, TV, AV, and P,.... :)

[Canuck]

RFMSports wrote:
You may learn more technical stuff about photography, but it won't help you at all the learn more about your camera. The best way to learn your camera is to learn what it can do and what it can't. Learn its limitations and work within those limitations to maximize your talent.

Read, read, read. There is a new magazine out (paper) that's called Digital Photo Pro. Looks to be pretty good so far with some great articles. You might check that out.

Get out and shoot and don't be afraid to experiment. Go against the grain and the rules and shoot what you want. If the rules say 1/125 f8. then shoot 1/15 at F32, or whatever. It's digital, you're not wasting film. Go wild and get creative. It's a freaking blast to shoot these cameras.

I wholeheartedly agree with these statements. By all means play with the camera, that's why you got it! See what it can and can't do, and figure out its boundaries!
You know about the exposure and bellshaped curve? I have had a lot of really good pics that are nothing like that bellshaped curve. Go figure. I go like this, especially digital. Take the pic. If you mess it up, try again, and again till you get it right. That's why I like landscape shots. It is not like they are going to move anytime soon! On the other hand, if you are going for raere shots like I was for Concorde, there are a ton of other planes coming in every 45 seconds so you set up from that and hope for the best. It takes experience. I have to admit, it took me a few hundred pics to get it the way I was looking and seeing how this camera acts in situations. It can be frustrating, but it is worth the frustration, the end of the day! I had a problem taking pics of Carreg Cennen Castle in Wales. I was just learning how to use the Sigma 120-300mm F2.8 EX and got some really crap shots the first time. It took some negoitating to get back that way as it was really outof the way for where we were going on the second trip to Wales. Wales is awesome! I hope to get back there eventually.

Cheers form England,
Canuck

[xxlt]

*Come on!....This has been a Great thread..Let's hear your insights and feelings*
Your inspiration is really flowing ...much better reading than a how-2 book. :)

bill rom Ohio

[Canuck]

xxlt wrote:
*Come on!....This has been a Great thread..Let's hear your insights and feelings*
Your inspiration is really flowing ...much better reading than a how-2 book. :)

bill rom Ohio

True enough! You have real people of varying ablilities and real time feeback on what has been said and can ask for clarification and other questions and get answers too. The book is one sided in that it is finite in what is in the book. Here this isn't the finite that the book is and can learn tons. I definitely have and the end of the day it makes one a much better photographer. It could be said that I'm a keen amateur photographer. Gotta get back to playing w/ my Canon EOS 10D and Sigma EX or Canon L glass.

Cheers from England,
Canuck

[defordphoto]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
RFMSports wrote:
Creative Zones! Oh my, that will display a full can of worms. Some people think the creative zones are the devil himself reborn! Actually they aren't all that useful for some of us, but I have found that by playing with a few of them, knowing what their default settings and goals are, that there are some circumstances where I can flip right over to one of them and actually find it useful.

Most folks wish Canon would have let us program our own creative zones. Personally I think that's an awesome idea, but in the meantime, I do use them, but very rarely.

I think you have your zones in a muddle :D

I bet you use the "Creative" zone most of the time :)

That's Manual, TV, AV, and P,.... :)


Yeah yeah. That's what I think I meant. :) I meant those 'other' zones with the shapes of joggers and flowers and crap on them. Those pre-programmed things are whatever the heck they're called

[JMSetzler]

I would not particularly suggest using the M mode and the trial and error method of learning. It would take a long time for you to be able to associate the changes you have made with the results you are getting. I would suggest reading and learning about exposure first, and then the M mode will be understandable :)

http://webpages.charter.net/setzler/exposure.pdf

My own tutorial text on this topic...

[defordphoto]

By all means we should all trial-and-error. That's how you learn what really works and what really doesn't. In the meantime we should also read, read, read.

Tutorials are fine and your's looks to be quite well done, but in knowing and learning the so-called rules I always encourage photographers to not be afraid to bend, break and even snap those rules for the sake of art.

Many times the perfect photo with the perfect light and the perfect sharpness and the perfect exposure is so clinical it borders on the mundane,

Screw the rule of the thirds! Screw the must-be-handheld formulas. Sometimes, yes sometimes let that photo be soft-focused. Crank up the ISO and use the grain. Relish the grain. Overexpose and blowout the highlights. Waste the details. Toss the $500 tripod away and handshoot at low speeds.

Sometimes we get so caught up in trying to shoot the Perfect Photo that we fail artistically.

And as a sidenote, to prevent any misunderstandings, this entire post was not directed at you JMSeltzer, but the discussion as a whole. This forum has been way too jumpy lately and I just want you to be sure that I was not jumping your case. Your tutorial looks nice and I'd encourage all beginners to give it a looksee and even print it out for reference.

[xxlt]

Go here for your free gift: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20559

Happy Holiday's