Noob Incompetence...Long

[swamprot]

My first post was incompetent. I'm incompetent.

This Forum sort of intriques me since I detected a certain amount of humor now and then.

The serious side is however that though I am not exactly a novice at photography, I am surely a novice with my digital and for sure with my new 10D. I think I have learned one thing already, I might be better off for some time, listening (reading) instead of talking.

My problem is I have owned and used extensively in younger past nothing but manual camera's. I still have my Canon F1 that I think I bought somewhere around 1975. I will probably take it to my grave with me.
A Bronica medium format and a 4X5 Calumet view camera. Neither of which I have now. Damn!

All I ever had to worry about was composing the shot, check the meter and of course winding the film.

Consequently I fit easily No. 1 in Belmondo's list of incompetence.

"1. Unconscious incompetence – This is where we don’t have a clue. In fact, we don’t even realize just how much we don’t yet know".

I also have an Olympus C700 (second step up in Digital) which takes decent pics, But still confusing to me because of all the menu's. I Became frustrated because I knew what I was missing in an SLR. The C700 is yet another example of not knowing what I didn't know when it come to buying a camera that I really wanted.

Now I find myself involved with a learning curve that seems stagging at this point. Hope I live long enough to get some of it. Starting at scratch as a raw noob.

The thing is digital is just about it for me now and I love it. I haven't had so much fun in years. From camera to computer in seconds. No waiting for days for stuff to come back from the lab (when I was in the buiness, no 1 hour). No rushing into the dark room to process and print. Potential of shooting hundreds of shots almost none stop is great as well.

My point you ask? I just am thankful for a place such as this where I can learn something... hopefully. Where it seems like their might be those that are patient with those of us that ask dumb stuff. I feel really intimidated because of ignorance so I really will try to listen and learn best as I can.

So if you will have me I'll hang around some and try to stay out of the way and not trip over any cords or knock the lights over.

Sorry for the long winded post.

[RichardtheSane]

Welcome to the forum, enjoy the humour as much as the information. I have learned loads since getting my 10D cos of this place.

I doubt your claims of incompetence, in fact in a few weeks I expect to see some stunning shots of yours in share photos - go on, rise to the challenge :D

Good luck and enjoy the digital medium.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Hah :D

What long winded post! :D :D :D

Welcome to the forum, and do set a spell!

I enjoyed your long winded post.. your history with digital bares much resemblance to how I ended up here with a 10D....

However I had NO film background at all... (other than point and shoot and disposable :( )

My last digicam was also an Olympus,. the C2100 which is the forefather of the 700 series.

Aint Digital GRAND!!!!!!

When I got my first digital (and "Agfa" hunk of crap) I was immediately in love!

Anyway,.. hang out,. and do exactly what you are doing. I think I actually asked 2 or three questions as i started out here with NO CLUE.. (although I had the Olympus for two years or more and that helped) but the vast majority of the questions had been,. as you say allready answered here. Just browsing will take you well on your way.

Can't wait to see some of your "stuff" :)

[robertwgross]

There is no humor in this news forum. All of the humorists were exiled to the Nikon news forum or else hanged.

---Bob Gross---

[karusel]

Hmmm... Swamprot, I see the -much faster developing- thing a drawback, also your lack of digital knowledge is a trifle, you'll catch up much soonersooner than a digital freak will catch up (if ever) the photographic knowledge and experience you posess.

I'm pretty fresh photographer, having owned a SLR for about 2-3 years now and a digicam for less than a year. A week ago I bought darkroom equipment (all of it) and developed my first photos. In B&W. Eventhough I was and still aml in the market for high end, (but not ridiculously high end) DSLRs and I can get to handle menus in any camera within a day or two, also Photoshop environment feels like home and the only problems with computers I ever encounter are the error messages by my beloved MS WinXP. Anyways, developing your own photos is undescribably different from simply viewing those pixels on a screen and editing them with all those fancy PS tools and brilliant plugins. All those shots.. have very little value. Choosing the good ones and deleting the bad ones is just work similar to picking good apples from bad ones. When you've got photos on film, your REALLY sorry for those shots that weren't that good, (and next time you don't forget to remind your dumb melon to improve exactly what was flawed before) and freaking happy for the good shots. Now photographing got perversed somehow, everybody shoots everything, at little or no cost. Shooting 1000 digital shots or 1000 on a velvia for example???? 27 rolls of film. I'd really like to see an amateur shooting this in a day, a week or even a month. They'd be simply rational and shoot really that what they think is good enough. Cost per frame has sunk, but more importantly, the personal value per frame has sunk even more...

Bitching? I simply feel a bit deprived and perhaps in a way nostalgic as I am basically entering an art, that is about to loose all it's magic. I am therefore keeping the old SLR just so I can make B&W shots and enlarging them to ridiculous proportions.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Nikon Vs. Hanging???

I'm glad we are at least given a choice :p


//not too tight around the neck if you please...

[rdenney]

swamprot wrote:
My problem is I have owned and used extensively in younger past nothing but manual camera's. I still have my Canon F1 that I think I bought somewhere around 1975. I will probably take it to my grave with me.
A Bronica medium format and a 4X5 Calumet view camera. Neither of which I have now. Damn!

All I ever had to worry about was composing the shot, check the meter and of course winding the film.



You're in my category of experienced photographers doing digital for the first time. That was me, too, except for lots and lots of experience doing digital by scanning film.

I bought my F-1 in 1972. I still have a Rolleiflex, various Mamiya C TLR's, at least six 6x6 Soviet and East German cameras, and even a Cambo view camera (now with 6x9 back). And then there are the Russian 35mm rangefinders, the Canon TX, T90, and Elan II. More lenses than I can count.

If you every inspect a T90 and then an Elan II, you'll see the logical progression of the controls used by Canon. Most of what you see on the 10D in terms of photographic controls was used on the T-90 20 years ago. Av=Aperture priority automatic; Tv=shutter-priority automatic; P=both automatic according to Canon rules--these were all there coing back to the T-series manual-focus cameras, and in some cases back to the AE-1.

And I agree that digital is just loads of fun. It's so much fun I had to go out and buy decent lenses for it, so I could have more fun and be poor, too.

But now that we've compared scars, I want to take issue with your second statement that I quoted.

All you ever had to do was worry about composing the shot, checking the meter, and winding the film? I don't think so. You had to worry about focusing and depth of field. You had to worry about shutter speed separately from aperture, because each has its separate effect. You still have to worry about those things.

You also had to worry about getting the tones of the image into the characteristic response curve of the film to avoid losing detail in shadows, highlights, or both. I spent years learning the Zone System to manage that. Now, I can read a histogram and KNOW that I have all the information I need to make a print, and the Zone System is no longer relevant. And the response of the sensor is linear instead of being toe-shaped like those old films. You can make the same print from a shot one stop underexposed as one that's one stop overexposed, unless you've either lost shadows or highlights.

And now, you can selectively adjust contrast, color saturation, color balance, and a host of other characteristics after shooting while before you had to hope the tones on your negative would somehow fit into the characteristic curve of print paper (which you used to have to worry about).

So, you still have to worry about composition, exposure, and focus. None of that has changed, and you're miles ahead of a lot of newbies who haven't learned about those yet. And you have to worry about sensor sensitivity, histograms, resolution, compression, and computers.

But you DON'T have to worry about characteristic curves, paper contrast, the Zone System, or any of the other things that plague film photographers.

I use computers at work so I already knew how to. Otherwise, I'd say it's an even swap.

The learning curve isn't quite as steep as that slope you've already climbed, you're just disappointed to see the summit still higher than you thought.

Just thought I'd bring a little sunshine into your day.

(By the way, humor is Not Allowed. I was nearly run out of this forum on my first day because I wrote out a chuckle, heh, heh, so everyone would know I was joking. But what the heck.)

Rick "who cautions against taking anyone seriously, especially me" Denney

[MediaMagic]

Heya Swamprot,

I'm with ya. I was an F1 user back in the manual days and find that I'm still battling the SLR's that make "my life easier". Rick summed it up pretty well. I can't see anything to add to that.

Now, most will see your username and think of you as "swamp rot", however, I, with my infinite wisdom, can easily see that you are really a new bracket, the "S.W. Am/Pro-T".

Hang out and don't worry about the cords and lights. They're gaffed and bagged down pretty good. Welcome.

David

[mwinog2777]

Welkomen

[Belmondo]

Swamprot:
You are well advised to avoid humor in this forum. This is a serious place where serious people gather to have serious discussions on the more serious aspects of digital photography, which we all take very seriously.

You will find that some people here are even more serious than others. I am very serious. Bob Gross is even more serious.

Okay, I wasn't really being serious.

Occasionally someone will throw a little 'shot across the bow' to complain that too much space is being used for inane, trivial nonsense. Feel free to ignore those types. Besides, they generally stick to threads that deal with taking pictures of rulers and other esoteric subjects like that.

In an earlier thread, I alluded to the fact that this forum is a place where you can come and 'hang out with friends.' I used the analogy of the corner bar, and that caught me some flack ---- apparently I hit a few nerves with that one. Oh well.

Anyway, this is a very friendly bunch. Many of them (I exclude myself) are quite knowledgeable and helpful. Others (I include myself) are just annoying.

Glad to have you.

Tom

[KarlJones]

A welcome to Swamprot!

Have a good time in this wonderful resource, lest anyone catch you in the act of cracking wise (sometimes simply called having a different opinion). It isn’t that it’ll soar over their heads like a Frisbee over Gary Coleman, but then who knows? Don’t sweat it. Shoot those photos. Speak your mind. Be involved.

Ah, Rick… you made me take a moment to wax film d’nostalgic. I also have an F-1 somewhere around here, along with my first AE-1 and a couple of FD lenses. Owned some TLR Yashica 124’s and I had a couple of Kowa 66 back when I believed weddings were going to be a gas… weddings in reality, gave me gas (anybody remember those Kowa’s).

BTW, if any of you guys were thinking of getting fitted for Flame Suits, let’s keep in touch. Maybe we could get a group discount.

[swamprot]

Thanks everyone..I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at the welcome. I would like to go back and respond to each of your comments but time today at least won't permit that. But really thankyou I needed that right now. To tell you the truth I expected to come back here this AM and delete my post for lack of interest.

My first Digital was an Agfa can't even remember the model but it was on of them blue cameras. I gave it to a friend eventually. But it got me hooked on digital. It took semi suitable 640x480 for web fooling around.

No..shooting with manual camera isn't as simple as I painted it but at least I could set it without trying figure out where in hell the setting is that I want. All the menu's are frustrating and probably will be for awhile.

I refuse anymore to get so involved that it turns into a business. I just want to have fun with it. Take pictures that I want to take of people and things that I want to do. Read my Sig Line. At least I hope it's there.

I even went to the trouble of printing out the entire Olympus Adobe PDF manual on the C700 which turned out to be 198 pages. I still tend to point and shoot.

I am really interested in learning to use my 10D and take advantage of all the neat stuff. It's going to be slow I think. I don't even understand all the two letter nomenclature terms. scary huh?

I bought the 10D with Canon 28-135 lens with no educated reason why. It just seemed at the time to possibly be universal enough to cover what I might want to do for starting out with one lens.

As for post processing I use Paintshop Pro and I have used it for a number of years for graphics mostly. I am fairly comfortable with it. I have tried PS but PSP is so much easier for me I keep going back to it in frustration.

I am really quite selfconscious about my pictures, I think I have forgotten everything I ever learned. Hopefully at least a little will surface eventually.

There I go again long and tedious. I need to shut up. Thanks again for making me feel welcome enough to even do this.

[defordphoto]

Welcome to the fray, swamprot. You have a whole new world of photography ahead of you. It's such and awesome, fun transition and so many new discoveries. One piece of advice though: Learn PhotoShop. You will need to use it when processing your photos, running actions, etc. It is so, so much more versatile than PSP.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing some shots from you soon!

[swamprot]

Just thinking about the Gary Cole analogy. Your Frisbie don't have to fly to high at least.

Photo Shop? Yeah I know but don't I have enough problems? I'll take that up a little at a time maybe.

I would, probably should ask some questions here. But I don't know what I don't know remember.

Right now I am working on some studio lighting. Can't seem to live without it for some reason. I only have an extremely small space for a studio but I think I can do some things maybe. I'll talk about that later, I'm determined not to get carried away here again...for now anyway.

Maybe on question, Does anybody use PSP? I have used it since version 4, I now have 8 and even that keeps me reverting back to version 7 a lot.

[Belmondo]

swamprot wrote:As for post processing I use Paintshop Pro and I have used it for a number of years for graphics mostly. I am fairly comfortable with it. I have tried PS but PSP is so much easier for me I keep going back to it in frustration.


Stick with whatever you're comfortable with. The only caveat I think you should consider is that Photoshop (in all its various forms and revisions) is the de facto standard for image editing among most professionals and serious amateurs. (Of course there are exceptions.) This means that there are for more resources available to PS users in the form of books, online help, processes, and so forth.

If you stay with Paintshop Pro, you will be isolating yourself from the mainstream. Some people thrive on that, so you decide for yourself if that's what you want to do.

[rdenney]

KarlJones wrote:
Ah, Rick… you made me take a moment to wax film d’nostalgic. I also have an F-1 somewhere around here, along with my first AE-1 and a couple of FD lenses. Owned some TLR Yashica 124’s and I had a couple of Kowa 66 back when I believed weddings were going to be a gas… weddings in reality, gave me gas (anybody remember those Kowa’s).

BTW, if any of you guys were thinking of getting fitted for Flame Suits, let’s keep in touch. Maybe we could get a group discount.

The Kowa Super 66? Sure I remember it. Nice camera--a box SLR with L-shaped interchangeable film magazines and a decent range of lenses. They are hard to get worked on these days, but a really nice one might not need it for a while and won't cost that much. They're a bit rare at this point, so it's hard to amass a collection quickly.

Another in that category is the Norita 66. That's a camera I'd love to own with all its lenses, if I can get one that doesn't need work.

For now, I'm making do with my Kiev 88, Kiev 60, Pentacon Six, and Exakta 66. I own one box SLR, with four 120 film backs and a 220 film back, and metered prism, plus four Norita-style bodies and 11 lenses ranging from a 30mm fisheye to a 500mm telephoto, and including some stunning Zeiss Sonnars and even a perspective shift lens. And I paid less for the whole lot than our friend above would pay for a used 500c, a film back, and two lenses (now, THAT's jealosy). I bought these after abandoning delusions of wedding work, for which I used Mamiya C cameras. I agree about weddings; too much stress for too little revenue. The Wedding Photography books never show the ugly, unphotogenic people in their examples. I use them for, um, serious art.

Rick "who once raced cars and still may have his Nomex suit around here somewhere" Denney

[johnmate]

This thread is what they call a Internet community, I like it!

Welcome swamprot, I am one of those 'silent' forum members. Not saying much but always listening.

[robertwgross]

Don't say that you are incompetent.

Say that you are on the steep end of the learning curve.

---Bob Gross---

[defordphoto]

belmondo wrote:
swamprot wrote:As for post processing I use Paintshop Pro and I have used it for a number of years for graphics mostly. I am fairly comfortable with it. I have tried PS but PSP is so much easier for me I keep going back to it in frustration.


Stick with whatever you're comfortable with. The only caveat I think you should consider is that Photoshop (in all its various forms and revisions) is the de facto standard for image editing among most professionals and serious amateurs. (Of course there are exceptions.) This means that there are for more resources available to PS users in the form of books, online help, processes, and so forth.

If you stay with Paintshop Pro, you will be isolating yourself from the mainstream. Some people thrive on that, so you decide for yourself if that's what you want to do.



That's true too, Tom, but it's much more than that. PSP cannot run all the cool automated scripts that are out there for PS, and there are a ton of them.

Not to mention that when we talk about the cool schtuff we do when we edit our pics, it's all PS talk and might/probably not work on PSP.

PS seems overwhelming, but you don't have to learn everything about it.

Swaprot: Install the Photoshop Elements and start playing with that and wean yourself into PS. In the long run it will pay off and your photos will be much nicer.

[swamprot]

Quote: RFMsports
Swaprot: Install the Photoshop Elements and start playing with that and wean yourself into PS. In the long run it will pay off and your photos will be much nicer.

Yeah Yeah I know. I been telling myself that, maybe I just need the push over the edge into complete insanity. Won't take much of a push though I been tottering on the precipice long time now.

Quote: Johnmate
This thread is what they call a Internet community, I like it!


I think I like it too.

You know I haven't even checked out the rest of this site.

[Belmondo]

RFMSports wrote:That's true too, Tom, but it's much more than that. PSP cannot run all the cool automated scripts that are out there for PS, and there are a ton of them.

That's generally what I was trying to say. Trying to duplicate everything that people routinely do in Photoshop (and discuss here) in any other program will be tantamount to shoveling crap against the tide. (poetic license taken for the sake of decorum).

The beauty of PS is the number of free copies of older versions, lite versions, or Elements, that are floating around. I even found an unused copy of the full version of 5.0 (complete with serial number) in my closet recently. No idea where it came from.

[robertwgross]

belmondo wrote:
Trying to duplicate everything that people routinely do in Photoshop (and discuss here) in any other program will be tantamount to shoveling crap against the tide. (poetic license taken for the sake of decorum).


Oh, what a lovely turn of a phrase! You sound like a used car dealer that used to be a speechwriter for James Carville.

I get to opt out of the Photoshop discussion because I don't use it. I happen to have gotten into the Corel game years ago and upgraded along that route. Some automation is there, but it is not as deep as it has gotten with Photoshop lately. I kind of prefer the handcrafted approach instead.

---Bob Gross---

[Belmondo]

robertwgross wrote: You sound like a used car dealer that used to be a speechwriter for James Carville.

If anybody does NOT need a speech writer, it's that guy. I can't swear I've ever even seen him take a breath.

Bob: I'd be happy to send you this copy of Photoshop 5.0. At least we can get you into the latter part of the twentieth century (if not absolutely up-to-date).

Tom.

[robertwgross]

Tom, I have newer Photoshop disks, but I don't use them. Also Photoshop LE.

Once you have invested many, many hours into a program, trying to master it, you kind of hate to jump off into something else that pops up. Besides, that Adobe stuff is probably just a passing fad.

Just think, some day we will have photo editor programs that can just *understand* the mood of the image and then just make it so.

---Bob Gross---

[Belmondo]

Bob:
I understand completely. I'm still trying to pry myself away from VisiCalc and MacPaint (Yes, I still own a 128K Mac).

Tom

[robertwgross]

belmondo wrote:
I'm still trying to pry myself away from VisiCalc and MacPaint (Yes, I still own a 128K Mac).


You know, they have 12-step programs for Mac addicts like you.

Now that you mention it, I think I have Wordstar 3.1 on a 5-1/4" floppy disk.

---Bob Gross---

[Belmondo]

It's worse than that, Bob: I'm schyzophrenic. I use Mac and Windows, although I must confess that I'm using my Mac for little more than a paper weight these days.

T.

[robertwgross]

No, Macs have a purpose!

Put it in a big bag and use that to weigh down your tripod.

---Bob Gross---

[Belmondo]

Can't. My papers will blow away.

[Canuck]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
Nikon Vs. Hanging???

I'm glad we are at least given a choice :p


//not too tight around the neck if you please...

Time to get the Pekka Police out! You said the forbidden word! :)

??????