Digital Flash umbrella mount kit

[Thomas_K]

I am currently looking for lighting to use in automotive photography. Everything from detail interior/exterior shots to full car shots.
I am on a limited budget so the big studio flash kits are out of the question for now. I figured i could use the Canon 2 x 580EX with ST-E2 kit that B&H offers.
(with the PSAUG code it's actually cheaper to buy the pieces separately than in the kit. $929.85 vs. $969.85 for the kit.)

While looking at this option i saw this (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=425220&is=REG&addedTroughType=search) kit (Impact Digital Flash Umbrella Mount Kit) listed under the accessories for the 580EX flash.

Does anyone have any experience with this or similar kits?
Would this be an acceptable solution for what i want to use it for?
Should i get bigger/other umbrellas for the flashes?
Silver ones maybe since they reflect more light? Or will that just make reflections in the paint worse?

Alot of questions there. Any feedback, tips and comments are greatly appreciated.:D

[FlashZebra]

Unless you already have the two -580EX flash units and the ST-E2, it is very likely you can get a very nice studio flash set for less cash.

Especially after you fit the Canon Flash units with special lightstand adapters, umbrella adapters, etc.

You can get a set of two Alien Bee B-800 monolights, with light stands, with umbrellas, with flash sync cords. For a significant amout less than $930.00.

In addition, the Alien Bee kit will have much more power, be much better suited to the task, and will be easier to work with (and less, not more expensive).

See:

http://www.alienbees.com/

I am sure thee are other inexpensive studio light sets (than Alien Bee) that will also fit the bill for less cash than the lest robust setup using 580EX units.

Battery power is the only possible upside I can see for the 580EX in your use mode. But, if you can get AC power, almost everything else points to using studio lights.

You can make a 580EX setup work, but studio flash lighting would make life a whole lot easier, and there will be no cost savings with the 580EX setup. The adapters alone to get the 580EX units on a lightstand and to accept a umbrellas are likely to cost about $100.00.

And another big issue, no modeling lights with the 580EX setup.

Enjoy! Lon

[JustinL]

good thing of having the speedlights over the AB's would be portablility

but think of all those batteries you'd go through!

Thomas, would this setup be for location lighting or do you have a studio large enough for the vehicle to fit in?

[Thomas_K]

Thanks for the swift reply londuck. The only problem i have with most studio light kits is that i live in Norway and we have 230v voltage.
So i need a kit that either runs on 220-240v or a multiple voltage kit. The prices over here are insane, so i prefer to shop at B&H/Adorama or similar large retailers.
Smaller companies in the US may have better offers, but the shipping costs usually kills the deal.
I see that you can get portable powersupply for the Bees, but they don't offer shipping to Norway.

I have not bought any of this yet, so i am open for suggestions.
The battery power is very much an upside as almost all the shoots i do are outside. Sometimes far from any electrical outlet.

The two 580's, ST-E2, stands, umbrella/flash mount and umbrellas (32") totals: $1028.80
And the shipping is relatively cheap from B&H if i use UPS.

@JustinL
It would be mostly for location. I have a studio space availiable, but like the outside shots better. Scenery in the background does alot for a car shot i think.
The use of batteries is definately a downside to the 2 x 580 solution.

[FlashZebra]

Thanks for the swift reply londuck. The only problem i have with most studio light kits is that i live in Norway and we have 230v voltage.
So i need a kit that either runs on 220-240v or a multiple voltage kit. The prices over here are insane, so i prefer to shop at B&H/Adorama or similar large retailers.
Smaller companies in the US may have better offers, but the shipping costs usually kills the deal.
I see that you can get portable powersupply for the Bees, but they don't offer shipping to Norway.

I have not bought any of this yet, so i am open for suggestions.
The battery power is very much an upside as almost all the shoots i do are outside. Sometimes far from any electrical outlet.

The two 580's, ST-E2, stands, umbrella/flash mount and umbrellas (32") totals: $1028.80
And the shipping is relatively cheap from B&H if i use UPS.

@JustinL
It would be mostly for location. I have a studio space availiable, but like the outside shots better. Scenery in the background does alot for a car shot i think.
The use of batteries is definately a downside to the 2 x 580 solution.
Then if batteries are the major concern, I would suggest using powerful on camera type flash units, just not the Canon Speedlights, as they are tremendously expensive for the amount of power they provide.

If you want grand flexibility in your setup, it is very likely the geometric constraints of the infrared flash sync signals, will start to inhibit quickly. And, if you want to manually control the Canon 580EX flashes by the much more robust radio or optical slave route, the Canon 580 only offers either very expensive solutions (like Pocket Wizard Radio Sync with expensive adapter cords, or annoying obtuse use modes with aftermarket optical sensors that seems to work for some, but not for others).

I suggest a more practical battery powered alternative

Just going with powerful, yet inexpensive, flash units that easily accommodate a manual mode.

Check out the Vivitar 283 series flash units (and I am sure there are other good units). Possibly they are only available used now, but B&H always has several in stock. They have a lot of power, have a useful manual mode, are inexpensive, and easily accommodate aftermarket optical sensors, sync cords or Pocket Wizards without all of the adapters and gyrations required with the Canon EX Speedlights.

In addition, the selection of light modifiers, adapters, and accessories from both Vivitar and many third parties for the 283 is huge. There are more accessories available for the Vivitar 283 than any other flash unit. No other unit even comes close.

You will also save a bundle. I suspect you can easily equip yourself with as many as four Vivitar 283 flash units, optical slave triggers for three of them, a PC sync cord for the main unit, and the needed lightstands, a nice Sekonic 308 flashmeter, and the needed misc adapters for less than $800.00. And, you would have 4 flash heads not 2.

The Canon Speedlights you cite are going to be over $1000.00 for only two units, without light stands, adapters, etc. and you will be limited to the geometric constraints of the infrared sync signals.

Enjoy! Lon

[Thomas_K]

The Canon Speedlights you cite are going to be over $1000.00 for only two units, without light stands, adapters, etc. and you will be limited to the geometric constraints of the infrared sync signals.

Enjoy! Lon
Can you explain what you mean by "geometric constraints of the infrared sync signals"?
My english is not very good, so i sometimes need the childrens-version...;)

[FlashZebra]

I do not have Canon Speedlights. But I think I understand much of their basic function. Others may want to comment.

The remote Canon Speedlight flash units that you set up, must be within a certain angle of the control unit on your camera. It is my understanding that the angles that can be used are a lot more inflexible than if you use an optical slave, or a radio slave to control the flash.

So, the Canon Speedlights have a remote mode, but it is somewhat of a limited remote mode.

There are other ways of manually controlling remote flash units that are just more flexible. To use these more flexible modes with a Canon Speedlight, you have to have additional expensive adapters as described in my post (and some of these adapters have proved to be problematic with some on this forum). Also note that if you use these more flexible adapters, all Canon automation is lost.

What I am getting at is that the Canon Speedlights provide a lot of automation, but this automation is expensive, and most likely limits a lot of general use function because the angles at which you must use the Canon Speedlights are not as flexible as you are likely to need for something as general as automotive photography as small as interior shots, or as grand as full car shots.

You will need use flexibility and raw light power more than you will need expensive, and likely limiting flash automation.

I hope this helps.

Enjoy! Lon

[Thomas_K]

Thank you for your extensive answers, londuck.
I have sendt AlienBee an e-mail just in case they do ship internationally.

[taygull]

The adapters alone to get the 580EX units on a lightstand and to accept a umbrellas are likely to cost about $100.00.


Enjoy! Lon

I think your off on this one unless you are including the cost of the umbrella, the light stand and the bracket.

The bracket that holds the 580EX and an umbrella is less than $30.00.

I don't disagree with what your saying, I'm in the same boat as this poster but I'm going with a 550EX, 580EX, 2 lights stands, umbrellas, and the remote as well. I need my system to be very very very...did I say very...portable. Most of my stuff that I'd use the lights for will be one model at dusk.

[FlashZebra]

I think your off on this one unless you are including the cost of the umbrella, the light stand and the bracket.

The bracket that holds the 580EX and an umbrella is less than $30.00.

I don't disagree with what your saying, I'm in the same boat as this poster but I'm going with a 550EX, 580EX, 2 lights stands, umbrellas, and the remote as well.. Most of my stuff that I'd use the lights for will be one model at dusk.
This would be for two flashheads (see "units" above and read the post carefully). So, by your accounting it would be something under $60.00, so I missed it a bit. But this does not unravel the underlying and grand point, just sort of grinds on one of the edges slightly. Take $40.00 off the analysis (difference between my $100.00 and your $60.00) and the conclusion is still the same.

Your particular usage seems to be more suitable for a two flash Canon speedlight system, so you are really "not in the same boat as this poster". This guy wants to do car photography from every angle, from small interior shots, to a full car. I suspect his application seems far more demanding that yours. He is a lot more likely to want to place a flash head in advantagious position that will just not respond to the on camera ST-E2.

But, that is still a lot of cash (about $1000.00) for two relatively anemic flash units that have limited studio like function.

But, they are small, are made by Canon, adhere to the seemingly beloved E-TTL2, and will run on common AA cells. Evidently there is someting in mix that will encourage a lot of cash to leave the pocketbook.

Enjoy! Lon

[Thomas_K]

I suspect his application seems far more demanding that yours. He is a lot more likely to want to place a flash head in advantagious position that will just not respond to the on camera ST-E2.

But, that is still a lot of cash (about $1000.00) for two relatively anemic flash units that have limited studio like function.

But, they are small, are made by Canon, adhere to the seemingly beloved E-TTL2, and will run on common AA cells. Evidently there is someting in mix that will encourage a lot of cash to leave the pocketbook.

Enjoy! Lon I think you are right. The application is more demanding than a one model shoot.
I can see that the ST-E2 could be limiting my options. Especially since the flashes woulg have to be pointed away from the subject, and into the umbrellas.
If i understand you correctly, this limits me to having to stand behind the flashes. So that the ST-E2 "sees" them.

I would appreciate any input from people that have or have used the ST-E2 with Canon flashes. How much movement do you get around the flash units?

And i agree, it is alot of cash for two simple flashes.
I think the best solution would be something like the AlienBee DigiBee kit, with two B800 units, two softboxes and a portable PSU.
But i cannot seem to find anything that can provide the same flexibility and portability i need for the same amount of money.

[mR_CaESaR]

i have this setup, i have a 580ex/430ex and st-e2 with the umbrella kit posted above.

My thing was, i had the 2 flashes already and i wanted to practise "studio style" portraits, so i went and got the impact kit. So far i've been happy with the results, but i haven't really had much of a chance to practice on them yet.

I only received it last week, so there's a lot of practising in the coming months. Once i've comfrotable with this setup, i think i'll go the next step and get real studio lights, but for now, i love the portability factor.

As for limited range, i've really only used it inside so far, and i've had no problems to triggering the flash for the stuff that i've done.

I've quickly done some "product shots" to show the results, probably not earth shattering photo's but the kit has some potential i think :)

Here's the setup

http://users.tpg.com.au/adslne0f/mR_CaESaR/images/setup.jpg

And here are the results

http://users.tpg.com.au/adslne0f/mR_CaESaR/images/group.jpg

http://users.tpg.com.au/adslne0f/mR_CaESaR/images/6280.jpg

A friend of mine has purchased the same setup and i think he will be using it for outdoor automotive photography,

[akiwi]

Hi Thomas,
Firstly taking pictures of large objects like cars need loads of light so you can get a small enough Aperature to get all of the car in focus. This often requires multiple flashes using a long exposure.
Alien bees cannot be bought outside USA & they won't ship.
I am in Germany and there are a few reasnobly priced alternatives with 240 volts.

I have Elinchrom d-lites which are similarly priced to the AB's. Available in many places here in Europe.
I also have a Walimex head which is about 1/2 the price of the Elinchroms & works just as well. Just not as large a range.
Here is a link to the shop.
http://www.foto-walser.de/index.php
Hope you can read a bit of German, otherwise ust PM me and I can help you navigate.

[Thomas_K]

@mR_CaESaR
Thanks for posting. The setup looks like it has potential for product photography.
Your pictures are very clean. (apart from some dust ;) ) I like it.
If you could get your friend to post some images i'd appreciate that very much.

@akiwi
Thanks for the link. My german is a litte rusty, so i might just take you up on that navigation offer. Maybe something like this would cover my needs?
http://www.foto-walser.biz/myfactory20/Shop/Shop.aspx?ClientID=wf989910564809554719&Shop=1&Type=9&Param=2844&Group=249&Language=D
If i read the site correctly this kit includes everything i need for a "no extension cord" shoot. Remote camera trigger and all. Correct?

[taygull]

@mR_CaESaR
Thanks for posting. The setup looks like it has potential for product photography.
Your pictures are very clean. (apart from some dust ;) ) I like it.
If you could get your friend to post some images i'd appreciate that very much.

@akiwi
Thanks for the link. My german is a litte rusty, so i might just take you up on that navigation offer. Maybe something like this would cover my needs?
http://www.foto-walser.biz/myfactory20/Shop/Shop.aspx?ClientID=wf989910564809554719&Shop=1&Type=9&Param=2844&Group=249&Language=D
If i read the site correctly this kit includes everything i need for a "no extension cord" shoot. Remote camera trigger and all. Correct?

The link did not work for me.

[Thomas_K]

Link works fine here. You can also follow the link akiwi posted. http://www.foto-walser.de/index.php
Choose Online Shop - Studio & Zubehör - Studioblitze & Sets - Portable Studioblitze and finally Walimex Portables Studioset 300 + Softboxen.

[akiwi]

Forget those battery powered kits. They don't have variable control only 1/1, 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4 power set with switches. They are also slow to recharge. However if you can put up with that I have read good reports about them.

When looking at other lights, select the K series, they have the same mount as Bowens (Almost anyway).
I have this one. CY-260K (http://www.foto-walser.biz/myfactory20/Shop/Shop.aspx?ClientID=wf445350768112213462&Shop=1&Type=9&Param=2184&Group=242&Language=D) Cost 134 Euros

[Thomas_K]

Just found this post over on dpreview:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=19186857&q=the+will+ship&qf=m
So i'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that King Luap deems me worthy of international shipping. :D

[FlashZebra]

Just found this post over on dpreview:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=19186857&q=the+will+ship&qf=m
So i'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that King Luap deems me worthy of international shipping. :D
The availability of the Alien Bees in the world has been a topic of discussion in this forum recently. You might want to try the search feature for additional info. I think they recently withdrew from world shipping; then backed off from that position, by marketing the units to the world market with another set of sale protocols.

But, to clarify my previous posts.

I suggest Alien Bees as they are nice units and are reasonably priced (so they are a good value). But, there are certainly many other studio flash units out there that will also work nicely.

My main point was that because of your intended use mode, I thought a couple of studio flash units would serve you need a lot better than a couple of relatively low powered, use encumbered, adapted camera based flash units pressed into service as studio flash.

But, almost any good quality studio flash units would work just fine.

Enjoy! Lon

PS - I have absolutely no brand loyalty. It's all just stuff to me.

[Thomas_K]

My main point was that because of your intended use mode, I thought a couple of studio flash units would serve you need a lot better than a couple of relatively low powered, use encumbered, adapted camera based flash units pressed into service as studio flash.

But, almost any good quality studio flash units would work just fine.

Enjoy! Lon

PS - I have absolutely no brand loyalty. It's all just stuff to me. After the replies here and on other forums i agree with you.
It seems i would get the most use out of two studio flashes with some softboxes and umbrellas.
Maybe a 580EX with some kind of softbox/bouncer for the interior shots.

I just got a reply from Alien Bees and they do offer international shipping.
The only downside is that they only accept wire transfer payment.
If they at least could have accepted VISA i'd have some insurance incase something goes wrong.
I don't think the wire transfer is a risk i am willing to take.

[akiwi]

Before you commit look at other brands. I think Alien bees are hyped up to more than they realy are on this and other web sites. Make a check list of what is important to you for a flash with points like:

1. Speed (Chargeup time. for photos of children important, for cars less so)
2. Power. 110 or 220 volts or both (Depends on if you want to travel)
3. Adapter. (For softboxes etc if you get bowens or elinchrom or other brand names there are hundtreds of 3rd party accessories. Alien bees may be a problem there for you here in Europe)
4. Portability. (If you need to transport your flashes you want them to be small, light and easily transportable)
5. Battery option. (If at some stage you want to attach a battery pack to your lights consider this now. Bowens Gemini have a battery pack that you can purchase later. Alie bees also. There are 3rd party packs that can be used on many flash units, but normally not Digital ones)
6. Modeling light. (cheap flashes have normally 60 - 100 w modeling lights. More expensive ones have more power. sometimes up to 1000w. In a large dark room when photographing a large object, 100 w is not much).
7. Resale. (Some brands will be easier to re-sell and loose less of their value than others)
8. Bells & whistles. (Decide what you need, these include manual peep on & pff, seperate controll for modeling / flash power, Inbuilt remote control, Computer connection possibility etc etc etc)
9. Service & spare parts. (Is local service available, or do they need to be shipped 1/2 way around the world adding expense).
10. Robustness. (A flimsy plastic thing won't last as long as something better built)
I'm sure others will have more points.

Also don't forget that when you import from outside the EU, you will have to pay local taxes and import duty. This often makes importing from the States less attractive.
I'm sure companies like Elinchrom have repair facilities in Norway.

[Thomas_K]

Trust me, akiwi the more i read up on this stuff the harder it gets to commit to anything.
Just to give you an indication on what things cost here in Norway, here's an example:
I have been reading about the Bowens Gemini travel kits. I thought this could be a nice option. So i looked for prices online.
The Bowens Travel-Pak costs £299 in the UK. That is about 3500NOK.
Now here in Norway the same Bowens Travel-Pak cost 7200NOK.
It's just ridiculous. So 99% of the time, importing gear pays off.

I have also looked at the Elinchrom systems. This kit looks nice:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart&A=details&Q=&sku=352704&is=REG
The 400BX units look great and specs are nice. There are however two things holding me back.
The softboxes cost $250 each and the Ranger RX battery PSU costs $2200.

I do think i need to go for a battery powered solution. That way i can use the setup on location.
I fear that if i buy a non battery powered kit it will just end up in my basement used for a portrait or two.

[akiwi]

Ok, I understand that.
If you definitley need portable, then you need to add something to your budget.
I have an option that might work.
Get your flashes from Walimex. I can give you a handler that can order stuff for you cheaper.
They are cheap, but they seem to work well if you are not a pro & working them every day for 8 hours.
I would recommend The Walimex 420K (http://www.foto-walser.biz/myfactory20/Shop/Shop.aspx?ClientID=wf475918290818766736&Shop=1&Type=9&Param=2422&Group=245&Language=D)

Then get the Tronix Battery pack from Invatronix (http://www.innovatronix.com/cgi-bin/productcatalog/index.asp)

[Thomas_K]

I just got a nice deal on a Bowens Gemini 500/500 Travel-Pak kit, so i think im going to buy that.
A bit over budget but there are retailers here in Norway for it, so spares and repairs should'nt be a problem.

[Thomas_K]

I have another question that i hope someone here can answer.
If i buy the Bowens Gemini kit, can the modeling lamps in the flasheads be used to light a small tent or cocoon for product photography?
The Gemini heads allow for a maximum modeling light of 275w to be used.