Advice needed on studio lights - Alien Bees

[Longwatcher]

I have made the descision to go with Alien Bees for my full set of studio lights (as opposed to work lights and cheap tungsten lights). I will be writing the check on Sunday.

What I want to make sure of is I get everything I may need for the next 6 months, since I will only get a 20% discount this once on the accessories. So I could use help in making sure I got it all. If you see something I am missing (other then the model) 8) let me know.
I have both the D60 and 10D cameras (as well as a Hassleblad film camera and maybe the 1D(s) follow on) that I would be using with the lights.
------------------
I am getting the Busy Bee kit which consists of
4 B800 Flash Units (modified to 2x1600 and 2x800)
They don't do Turquoise, so I got Black)
2 13' Extreme Duty Stands
1 10' General Purpose Stand
1 Backlight Stand
1 Giant 30" x 60" Softbox
1 LG4X Wired Remote (deleted in favor of the radio remote set)
1 32" Shoot-Thru Umbrella
1 48" Silver/White Umbrella
Set of 4 Honeycomb Grids
1 Stand Carrying Bag
4 AlienBees Single Light Carrying Bags

I have added the Vagabond CU-300 and a SS1 split cable, so I can go manual when the radio remotes run out of power or malfunction.

--------I have the following already
1 photoflex 42" softgold/white reflector
1 photoflex 24?" 5-in-1 reflector
1 36" silver umbrella
3 light stands (2 heavy, 1 light)
2 extension arms
and a portable home built backdrop system.
I am not including my work lights or other tungsten lights for what I hope is obvious reasons

----------------What I will do with it--------
I will use the system for three types of shoots.

1. in studio portrait/glamour model shots. initially I will be using my home, but I am looking for studio space I will be able to use in the evenings at least.

2. on location pet shots - still debating this one with girlfriend, but I have to agree with her logic, it will probably pay for the studio.

3. On location model shoots in the local area. Local area defined as I can drive there. If I am flying I will stick to the pair of 550EX flashes (unless they pay me a lot).

-------Misc questions beyond what am I missing---------

A. Should I retain the LGX4 for backup (or to save batteries on the remotes) I lean against this since I hate having wires going all over the place I can trip over. But am concerned about battery life/expense on the remotes.

B. Although not from AB, should I get a light meter? Currently I just take a series of pictures until I like the histogram, then I adjust from there. I have gotten the impression that it may not help as much as my current method does, but may save time.

I think that covers it for now, any suggestions today through Sunday afternoon would be appreciated.


[Trivia: If I can't get great pictures after this, I have no equipment left to blame] :p

[justme_dc]

That's going to be a hefty check you're writing.....I think you've got it covered on the lighting front. So I'll only address your meter question. Buying all that lighting without buying a flash meter would be just like buying a porshe without wheels or tires. Sure it'd be cool to have but you can't do anything really awesome with it. Flash meters are ESSENTIAL to correctly setting lighting ratios, doing special lighting effects, setting correct ambient to flash ratios both indoors and out and to truly getting the exact f/stop you need for the perfect exposure. Sure with a digital camera you can shoot and adjust until it looks "right", but with a meter you know it's right before you fire off the first frame. Also, learning to use a meter is an important part of the craft and will go a long way towards your becoming a better photographer. Understanding light and the lack there of is the key to making quality images. You have to learn the rules before you set about breaking them and a flash meter will help in that reguard.

I hope this makes some sense. Good luck to you.

[robertwgross]

Only one question: How do you use light stands that tall?

I've never used anything taller than eight feet for fear of burning a hole in the ceiling.

With 13 feet, it seems like you are carrying excess weight around.

---Bob Gross---

[Longwatcher]

It makes since, which is why I keep thinking of getting one. However, I remember reading something somewhere about Canon camera's exposure meter being smarter then light meters when it comes to Canon cameras and studio lights.

I understand what a light meter does and why, I am just having trouble convincing myself I would use it if I bought it. I feel like it is something that would slow me down, rather then speed me up. (not necessarily a bad thing), but since I play with lighting frequently to get different effects and time is the one commodity that is always limited while I am taking pictures, I try to get things that will speed up my ability to take pictures. The other problem is lately I have been going off-tripod to get more artistic shots, which will change my lighting situation somewhat.

Maybe I should think of it like IS, not always needed, but it sure comes in handy when it is. But then the camera's metering has worked so far for me. I hope you see my problem. I suspect I will eventually get one, but the when is the real question.

I tend to think of it more as the good tires versus the cheap tires. They can make a difference, but not for all cars.

And the check is going to be 27 something something dot something something. At least so far.

I budgeted a little over US $3,500 for the light set. I knew I wanted 4 lights all made by the same company. Given the budget and the light requirement, I wanted it to be as flexable a system as possible designed for travel and studio. The Alien Bees won almost hand down, mainly due to quality and reputation versus budget. White-Lightnings came in second, followed by
a european company Ei????.

Thanks, more to think about.

[Longwatcher]

robertwgross wrote:
Only one question: How do you use light stands that tall?

I've never used anything taller than eight feet for fear of burning a hole in the ceiling.

With 13 feet, it seems like you are carrying excess weight around.

---Bob Gross---

My ceilings are 12 feet high and I have put the hair light above the 10 foot mark before, just to get them out of the way of the spears.

http://www.longwatcher.com/images/CRW_6191-edit.jpg (warning topless woman :p

Also having a stand that goes up that high means that it has more base support, so I can put more weight on it at a lower altitude.

I will say though that I have bumped my ceiling a couple of times with the 13' stands I already have :(

[slin100]

Longwatcher wrote:
I understand what a light meter does and why, I am just having trouble convincing myself I would use it if I bought it.
Without a flash meter, you will have no way of metering the light from your studio lights. You can't use the camera's meter to meter the flash. Calculating flash ratios will also have to done manually.

Do you plan to judge the result by reviewing the LCD and histogram? It can be done, but life will be far simpler with a flash meter. I can recommend the Sekonic L-358. It runs between $200-250.

[scottbergerphoto]

Ditto on the Sekonic L358. I use it for all my studio flash.
I don't see how you would do studio flash without a flash meter. Trial and error would take forever not to mention setting flash ratios. The camera meter cannot meter your studio flash as the studio flash fires after the shutter is already open. In EOS ETTL flash with dedicated speedlites, the preflash fires before the shutter opens and is measured and the amount of flash to use is calculated. Then the shutter opens and the speedlite fires. There is no feedback from the actual flash to the camera.
I have the optional $25 Pocket Wizard module inserted in the L358 so that I can meter my lights wirelessly. Of course you need to add that to a Receiver / Transmitter set up (Pocket Wizard Plus).
Scott

[Vegas Poboy]

Slin100 is correct,
When using studio lights you have to have a light meter. There is no way to properly adjust lamps when using your camera. There is plenty of books on the market to show you different types of lighting depending on the what type of effect you're trying get. I recommend the Lighting Cookbook & Corrective Lighting & posing by Jeff Smith. Both book give details on light placement and settings.
When it comes to setting up studio lights you need to figure ratios 2-1, 3-1 etc. and the light meter is the easiest way to make adjustments.
Sekonic L358 is a very good but if you do any outside shooting like landscapes or need great detail I would purchase one with the spotmeter built into it. Also Sekonic has remote transmitter available.
Good luck with the lights and please let us know how everything turns out I have been looking @ the digibee & background Bee setup.
Good luck

[mjordan]

It seems you have made up your mind on not getting a light meter... although for someone that is willing to spend that much at one swoop so they can take better pictures and not get a flash meter, is beyound me. As others have said, you can set up your lights with the historgram and LCD. It will tell you have have your exposure correct, but it won't tell you if the fill light is giving you too much light and the main not enough.... your exposure will still be correct though.

And by the time you spend 30 minutes using the camera, you could have taken 500 spear welding shots rather than have the natives get restless and flash blind befor you even start. ;D

But go ahead, try it without. And when you come back and said you finally got one, we won't hardly tell you we told you so at all. ;D

Good luck with all of that gear. It does sound like a nice setup. You might throw in a few barndoors and a snoot or two and some lite discs for gobos and reflectors (and don't forget a lite disc holder or two) and get a couple of extra medium duty light stands. They are very handy for proping reflectors, gobos, or other things on when you are working and maybe even one or two of the 550 flashes for a small kicker accent light.

Mike

[MediaMagic]

Longwatcher wrote:
----------------What I will do with it--------


2. on location pet shots - still debating this one with girlfriend, but I have to agree with her logic, it will probably pay for the studio.



Yes, yes, YES, let your g/f feel like she's won this debate and take those pet shots. In the last month, very part time (I'm a programmer for a living/pay the bills income), I made just over $1,100 doing pet photography and I charge a cut rate because I'm an amateur. People who want pro pet shots are *very* serious about the shots -- keychains, DVD's, mouse pads, coffee mugs, t-shirts, you name it, they buy it, and that's on top of your sitting fee.. you can easily pay for your studio with pet photography alone if you can find the gigs, which should NOT be a problem. (I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging if I'm coming across that way, because that's not the case at all, what I am actually saying is that if *I* can do this, anyone else could probably make even more).


B. Although not from AB, should I get a light meter? Currently I just take a series of pictures until I like the histogram, then I adjust from there. I have gotten the impression that it may not help as much as my current method does, but may save time.


Yeah, just to chime in with the others, you will have to have a flash meter. The modeling lights will not give you proper exposure readings, plus, you'll need to read each light individually and adjust the power to get the ratios exact. High key is especially tricky (at least for me), but even mid or low key would take you eons to get the right ratios using only the histogram with trial and error.

With continuous lighting, you can get away with the histogram approach because you see the exact light that will appear in the frame, both with your bare eye and through the viewfinder. You can see the ratios and even if you don't measure it out, your internal "eye" as the photographer just knows when the lighting *looks* right. The modeling lights will get you set up, but you have to measure the POOF to get the flash power the way you want it.




[Trivia: If I can't get great pictures after this, I have no equipment left to blame] :p



I've resorted to blaming micro organisms growing on the sensor, the String theory, alien interference.. there's always something to fall back on. ;)

[swamprot]

Flash meter's? Who Needs them things?

Probably the hiker that don't need a Compass. Kind of hard to justify cost of tivial gadjets.

[Longwatcher]

OKay you all win,
I will get a light meter, the next time I order something from B+H. If there are any recommendations other then the above, let me have them. It would help if you all let me know what to look for beyond the minimum.

That said, it has never taken me more then 3 shots to get the exposure close enough for my taste as a starting point. However, for the pet shots I will need to get more consistant lighting between locations, which is why I bow to the peer pressure. I just keep thinking light meters are a hold over from film. If nothing else, I will find out for myself when I get the lights.

Comment to Swamprot. Not sure if I can still do it, but I used to be able to maintain my direction without the use of a compass as long as I was on foot. Cars will mess me up a bit (a lot if I am not driving), but I am still fairly close to right on. I have annoyed several people by knowing exactly what direction the camp we left from was in.

Okay I am strange.

Must remember to blame Chaos Theory next time I have a bad picture :p

In misc other trivia, take a look at B+H's new digital photography sourcebook. Sure glad I don't need a new Canon 50/1.4 (see page 162). And I thought my 70-200/2.8 IS was heavy :D

(they also oopsed a few other lenses) and the 300D versus 10D stats page in a couple of places.

[scottbergerphoto]

I just got the Sekonic L558. It is good for flash, incident, and has a built in 1 degree spot meter with its own digital readout. Like the L358 you can add an internal Pocket Wizard module to trigger your flash for metering if you are using a Pocket Wizard set up. I got it from B+H this week. I've been using the L358 for over a year without problems. If you can do without the spot meter, it's $200 cheaper and a great meter.
Scott

[Longwatcher]

A quick added comment, knowing me I am likely to get the best possible light meter I can afford. I suspect the limit for me will be about $500 in Jan/Feb or $150 in Dec.

I am using the existance of my current day job and the lack of a spouse to get the best overall equipment setup I can afford, since eventually my contract will run out (unless they renew it less then 50/50 this year) and I have always liked pictures. [speaking as a 20+ year Imagery Analyst :) ]

I will probably wait until January so I can see if indeed I need it or not, but since I keep thinking about it I will probably get one. Besides it may add to the BS stuff that makes it look like I actually know what I am doing :p

All my pretty equipment really does (other then resolution) is
A. Help me, so I can concentrate on the composition and the moment.
B. Make sure that I have the most flexability possible.
and
C. Make it look like I know what I am doing, so they let me take pictures when otherwise they wouldn't dream of letting me near them.

As I mentioned before I got the D60 then 10D because, my Kodak DC4800 would not do certain things, but also because it looks more professional then a point and shoot. However on a per picture basis, sometimes I think I got better pictures from the Kodak. Then again there is no way I would have gotten some of the models to pose for me with a P&S camera and some of the shots with the 10D have been fanatstic and not possible for the Kodak.

Go figure.

This post is way too serious, I'll stop now.

[jhankins]

I have pretty much the exact Alien Bees setup you have with the exception of all B800 lights. Just a thought but you may find that all you need are the 800's. For a meter I have the L-358. And yes, as others have said, you will need a flash meter and the L-358 makes perfect sense. I would opt for the wireless option, I wish I would have and will be making that purchase soon.

Good luck!

[jhankins]

PSS

I would likely have opted out on the giant softbox for two medium octogon softboxes. The giant is, uh a bit too large, furthermore I don't like the catch light it leaves. Just a personal preference I guess. I will end up putting mine in my closet or putting it for sale on Ebay. :)

[MediaMagic]

longwatcher wrote:

That said, it has never taken me more then 3 shots to get the exposure close enough for my taste as a starting point. However, for the pet shots I will need to get more consistant lighting between locations, which is why I bow to the peer pressure. I just keep thinking light meters are a hold over from film. If nothing else, I will find out for myself when I get the lights.




Tim, when you mention 3 shots to get the exposure, are you doing that with continuous lighting? I can see it with hot lights, and that's what I thought you were talking about at first because you mentioned flood lights, but are you actually using this method now with other flash units that you are replacing with the AB's? Maybe I'm missing something. If you have some trick you've found I'd love to hear about it. I'm always wanting to learn new things that are a bit "outside the box".

The way I see the continuous vs. flash lighting scenarios is that with continuous light, you have your light and then determine your exposure to match. With studio flash, you know the basic exposure setting you need, and you are dialing up the power of each light to give you the proper mix of ratio (main, fill, etc.) that will add up to the overall exposure. Kinda like building a pyramid of light. That's not exactly accurate, but in my mind, it helps for me to think of it in that way.

The only way I can see to get f8-f11 on the main, and f5.6-f6.3 on the fill is to meter and adjust them one at a time (not worrying about the background, accents, or evil extraneous light for this discussion). How would/are you be able to get the ratios correct with the histogram?

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here or be a smartass, I'm really very sincerely curious as to whether you have a trick that you use with the histogram that I can incorporate as well to make my shots snap a little more.

David

[swamprot]

Don't really want to get off topic on compass thing but, things can change real fast. I don't often carry a compass in the woods but usually I know where I am (famous last words).

If you get caught in the dark. Or say a heavy snow fall starts and your vision is limited. People have died within a few hundred feet from their destination. Pretty scary when think you have been walking in strait line and cross your own tracks.

[Longwatcher]

I think I figured out why I never felt the need for a light meter and you all do. [Note I will probably still get one].

I am usually trying for more artistic images and so I am not trying to necessarily get "balanced" light. I am usually trying several different things with my lights to get dramatic views. All I care about is; Do I have enough exposure to get a good picture. I can get this far from the histogram. From there I play; moving the lights, the model and the camera around taking several shots to get hopefully interesting shadow effects.

My main goal at this time, since I understand the basic technical aspects of digital photography and the equipment, is to improve my artistic/creative skills. Mostly this is practice, practice, practice (as often as my day job permits).

However, with the pet pictures, I will need more consistant lighting, since that will be standard portrait type work, requireing balanced lighting. This is why I am probably going to get the light meter.

At this time, except for my 550EXs, I only have continuous lights. It took me 6 months to figure out how to get the 550EXs to do what I want most of the time. I suspect it will take me at least a year to master the ABs.

I will let you all know if I can do it without the light meter, when I get them. Otherwise, It sounds like the L-358 is the recommended one to get.

[Off Topic compass note: I could usually find my way if there is any light whatsoever (so I can see the ground). I have to admit though I never tried it completely with a blindfold. If I was spun around with one on, all I usually had to do, was wait for my head to stop spinning and then I was good to go. Planes are my only problem, I suspect because they cover too much distance too fast, but give me about an hour on the ground and I was good to go again. I always figured I had some kind of internal compass.