Before you book your first wedding ...

[Curtis N]

Before you book your first wedding, consider this.
Author’s note: After seeing yet another “What lenses do I need to do weddings?” thread, I decided to write this instead of launching into a ranting tirade.

After my grandmother’s death we were cleaning out her house and sorting through her belongings. I looked up on her living room wall and noticed two photographs – pictures that I had seen hundreds of times and studied thoroughly.

They were full-length bridal portraits, printed 16 x 20 and nicely framed. They were my grandmother’s two daughters (my mother and my aunt).

Each was a fantastic photograph in its own right. Two beautiful young women, two stunning bridal gowns. They were taken by different photographers, in different churches, and yet they were so similar that they made a matching set.

These prints hung on my grandmother’s living room wall for over forty years until she died. They were a perfect representation of a mother’s pride in the girls she had raised. Forty years. Every guest she ever had in her home looked at them. They were too prominent not to notice. Over the years, my grandmother redecorated several times, painted, replaced furniture, and rearranged things. She replaced other artwork on her walls. But these two pictures remained. They were that important. They were irreplaceable.

They represent the essence of wedding photography. They captured that moment in a woman’s life when she embarks on her own journey toward motherhood and raising kids of her own. That moment when a woman must now take all that her parents have taught her and use that knowledge and wisdom for the next phase of her life. It’s that moment when a mom and dad will look at their daughter in a wedding gown, then look to each other, with a knowing smile that exudes pride in the accomplishment of raising a little girl and preparing her for the world.

And that moment, captured timelessly through the magic of photography, was preserved in my grandmother’s heart for the rest of her years. She went through good times and bad in that house. My grandfather died young and she lived the second half of her life as a widow. There must have been lonely times, but she could always look up at those bridal portraits of her daughters proudly and remember happier days.

So, all you would-be wedding photogs, are you ready for this kind of responsibility? Are you prepared to capture flawlessly a moment that will only happen once? Are you prepared to create images that will hang on someone’s wall for the next forty years?

Are you ready to have your pictures compared to the ones from the bride’s sister’s wedding? Because they will be. Do you have the confidence to display your work next to that of a seasoned pro? Because sooner or later, that will happen. And your skills will be evaluated by hundreds of people who gaze upon the same prints over a period of decades.

And the parents of that bride will either see their daughter, with her beaming expression captured at a triumphant moment of her life, or they will see a lackluster image and forever wish they had hired someone else to take the pictures. You see, forty years later, they won’t remember that they saved a few bucks by hiring someone cheap. They won’t remember that you told them you don’t have any experience doing weddings and not to expect great results. The only memories they will have will be the photographs themselves.

You could bake the best wedding cake in the world, and a year later no one will remember if it was chocolate or vanilla. You can expertly videotape a wedding, and the tape will be viewed a few times before collecting dust in a drawer.

But if you photograph a wedding, your work will be displayed to the world for years to come. Your pictures will be on the wall in the bride and groom’s house, and the parents of the bride, the parents of the groom, and probably grandparents, too. On a daily basis for decades to come, someone, somewhere will gaze upon one of your images and remember that day.

You have one chance. Failure is not an option. Are you ready?

[suspectim]

Nice advice. Im going to stick to assisting first.

[CanonLaw]

That post really made me think....thank you! It just may change my approach to this.
Also, I can't help but feel that some of my posts lately have been about which lens to buy - sorry if that bugged you.

[Curtis N]

I can't help but feel that some of my posts lately have been about which lens to buy - sorry if that bugged you.No apology necessary. To be clear, it doesn't bug me that people ask about lenses on internet forums. That's what such forums are for.

It's just really scary when someone asks such questions AFTER they have booked a wedding (or three). Weddings require the skills of someone who has the experience to walk into any situation and instinctively know what equipment he/she will need to get the job done.

[JaertX]

Thank you for posting this Curtis. Your grandmother having those two photographs hanging on her wall for forty years is EXACTLY the reason I have fallen in love with wedding photography and what will continually make me want to work harder to be a better photographer.

In all fairness though, some people just don't want to pay for a photographer of that skill level. I'm not there yet and I price myself accordingly for weddings that I shoot alone. My clients know exactly what I am and am not capable of. I work with a very seasoned pro for most of the weddings I shoot, but she is shooting weddings that sometimes get into the six-figure budget range...of course those people can afford a photographer of her skill level (and not to be too egotistical, but I'm getting close now!...woohoo) In the past, I had shot three weddings that the entire budget was probably less than $2k...there's no way they were going to have ANYONE shoot their wedding if someone like me wasn't willing to stick my neck out and try it. And I wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't done those weddings alone.

Not that I'm saying all that to rebut your post...I completely agree with you, actually. There is a place for rookie wedding photographers and not everyone will get into it working under a high-end pro (read how Joe Buissink got into the business sometime). But that's not to say agreeing to shoot a wedding should ever be taken lightly...no matter your experience level or the budget of the wedding.

thanks a bunch for posting this. - Jason

[JMHPhotography]

I am going to say it again... I agree with Curtis... I find myself saying that to so many of your posts, I may just add that line to my signature. :lol:

I'm actually going the assistant/associate shooter route for 3 or 4 more weddings before I start booking my own.

There are just some things that I'm learning now that could totally screw you if you went in unprepaired, even if you are a truely gifted photographer. I'm assisting in a Catholic wedding next weekend where the preist has said he only will allow one of us down below during the ceremony, and I being the associate shooter will have to take my photos from up above in the balcony. No problem with that at all... but some weddings have different structures and so many beginning wedding photogs just book the wedding thinking.. I've got it covered and don't do any planning beyond the initial meeting. You really have to meet, and constantly communicate with the B&G.. and then have one last meeting to finalize all the details. I've met with the preist, taken a tour of the church and reception hall... scouted potential locations for specific photos, and the house of the bride where the girls will be getting ready. I feel like we've done EVERYTHING... dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's but I know that something will change between now and then. It's really a huge deal and not an undertaking one should enter into lightly. You are going to be immortalizing a very special event and your photos will be looked at and talked about for generations.

[Padawan Dad]

Good post Curtis. Generally... I agree with what you are saying. Still I feel that photography is too subjective to compare one photographers work to anothers... Yes, this will happen, but we all shoot differently.



Do you have the confidence to display your work next to that of a seasoned pro?


I've seen so called, "wouldbe" wedding photographers that could give a "seasoned pro" a lesson or two. Alot of pro's, unfortunately, become complacent with what they do, and begin to look at what they do more as a business rather than an art form. Alot of the beginners (I find) have more passion than some pro's and are more willing to learn and advance in their field.

As I said, I agree with alot that you say here, but I have to admit that I find alot of discouragement on the forums here. And alot of great photographers are discouraged by alot of "wouldbe pro's," or "self-proclaimed pro's." This is by know means a cut at you. I am making no judgement of your skill, or talent. It is just a generalization of alot of "I'm a pro" threads on the forums, which is a big turn off for me.

There is also the feeling that alot of photographers are suggesting that there is only one way to shoot a wedding. And if it is not done one way, then it is the wrong way.

There is a new phase of wedding photographers on the way. Digital photography is sweeping the world over, and a lot of talented artists are picking up cameras and doing wonderful things... Look at David Jay! I think that this is discouraging alot of wedding photographers that have been in the field for many years. I find this unfortunate.

The responsibility is great. And this still applies for pro's as well. There is alot of talent out there. Alot are better than most pros I've seen. I think that we need to assist them, rather than make them feel alienated.

I have seen alot of posts by Jamie Wexler who pretty much has told new photographers breaking into the business that they are pretty much welcome to tag along with him whenever they want. I think we need more constructive methods, like this, rather than saying if your not ready re-think what you are doing.

Once again, good post, and a lot of good points. I just wanted to add my 2 cents, and feelings on the topic.

You could bake the best wedding cake in the world, and a year later no one will remember if it was chocolate or vanilla.

People are still talking about our cake ;) Best tasting cake I ever had in my life!

[CarstenRasmussen.dk]

Hello Curtis and thank you for your posting.

It does certainly give raise to thought.

Perhaps I should start by saying that im not a professional photographer, I got started in weddings, because a friend insisted that i should shoot their wedding, I told them that I knew next to nothing about weddings, i was into portraits. The keept insisting, and I ended up doing their wedding, since they were friends no money was involved.
When I look back at those pictures, i wish i could redo them with what i know now, no technically, but what i know about what they look for in a wedding photo.
In my ordinary work, I take a lot of company portraits, because i like doing them, and one the CFO asked me if I wanted to do their wedding, I said flat out no, and told him to get a pro. Again he insisted, stating that his fiance loved the pictures that I had taken of him previously. We went over this a few times, until I gave up and said yes.
After that wedding I was caught, I loved it, never have I seen a happier couple.
The ambiance the mood and the couple made it a very fantastic experience for me. Since then I have shot about 20 weddings.
We all have to start somewhere...

That said I would like to challange some of the pros, I think the main difference between the pro and the semi, is that the Pro has to make an income, in order to make a living and I think that makes the pro bet on the safe shots, they know will kick it for the couple. I´ve visited a lot of wedding photographers sites and seen their pics, a lot of them create and bet on the safe thing.

The few and the exceptional create unique pictures where creativity is placed equally as high as the technically side.

And where am I going with this...Well I challance the pro to go beyond the conventional and start delivering the "good" stuff. Because most of you can...

I know that "my type" is the competition, delivering an underpriced product, with more addon´s such as the DVD with all the pictures, many more edited pictures, and letting the couple have the freedom to print, present the pictures to family and so on.
I know the pro´s have to make a living, and upsale is a keyfactor. But I think the pro´s need to step up to the challance and start changing the old ways to compete in the world where there are litteraly tons of amatuers and semi.

Before I finish this rant, I would like to thank Curtis again, I want to be on that wall, for 40 years and more, and I want it to be a picture that I will be proud of having created.

[Yella Fella]

there's some good advice... and very good note to point :D cheers dude!

[Curtis N]

the CFO asked me if I wanted to do their wedding, I said flat out no, and told him to get a pro. Again he insisted, stating that his fiance loved the pictures that I had taken of him previously. We went over this a few times, until I gave up and said yes.Here's a sad, but true story. My wife and I have a checking account in the name of our photography business at my credit union. When making a deposit one day, the young teller noticed the name ...

Teller: You're a photographer?
Me: Yes.
Teller: I want you to do my wedding.
Me: We don't do weddings. When is your big day?
Teller: Oh, I'm not engaged. I don't even have a boyfriend. But when I get married, I want you to take the pictures.
Me: You must understand that wedding photography is a very specialized field, much different from the type of photography I do. It requires a great deal of skill and experience. My wife and I have never done a wedding, and I don't know if we ever will.
Teller: Well I still want you to do my wedding when I get married.

Notwithstanding the fact that her request was akin to asking a gynecologist to do brain surgery, what's more remarkable was that she had never seen a single one of my pictures.

This simply illustrates how easy it is to get pressured into taking on an assignment we may not be prepared for. And perhaps the intent of my original post was merely to ensure that we all have the right frame of mind before responding to such requests.

[wpccc]

Curtis,

Thanks very much for this thought-provoking thread. Photogs should spend some more time thinking about the ethic responsibilities instead of just about equipment, techniques and money.

Speaking the "pressured assignment", I shoot for the events of my church sometimes, so it's very easy for people to find a guy to shoot their weddings for free. :cry:

[coreypolis]

Here's a sad, but true story. My wife and I have a checking account in the name of our photography business at my credit union. When making a deposit one day, the young teller noticed the name ...

Teller: You're a photographer?
Me: Yes.
Teller: I want you to do my wedding.
Me: We don't do weddings. When is your big day?
Teller: Oh, I'm not engaged. I don't even have a boyfriend. But when I get married, I want you to take the pictures.
Me: You must understand that wedding photography is a very specialized field, much different from the type of photography I do. It requires a great deal of skill and experience. My wife and I have never done a wedding, and I don't know if we ever will.
Teller: Well I still want you to do my wedding when I get married.

Notwithstanding the fact that her request was akin to asking a gynecologist to do brain surgery, what's more remarkable was that she had never seen a single one of my pictures.

This simply illustrates how easy it is to get pressured into taking on an assignment we may not be prepared for. And perhaps the intent of my original post was merely to ensure that we all have the right frame of mind before responding to such requests.


so sad but so true. I helped out with a wedding a few years ago, and one image really turned out well, and every now and again someone sees it, just a candid moment head and shoulders shot of the bride looking down with a nice rembrandt lighting pattern, and multiple people have requested my services right from that, no other information. It was shot on a d30 with a quantary lens, so quality isn't that great either. :rolleyes:

[Wilt]

...one image really turned out well, and every now and again someone sees it...and multiple people have requested my services right from that, no other information. It was shot on a d30 with a quantary lens, so quality isn't that great either. :rolleyes:

So, again I wonder, why all the compulsion to spend massive amounts of money on L lenses, when a simple trip to Ritz or Target would provide the same range at far less cost?!?! :p :p :p

[Wilt]

Seriously, though, while agreeing both with Bill and Curtis, I think the true spirit of Curtis's OP was not to discourage, as much as to get people to THINK SERIOUSLY about whether or not they are ready for the intense pressure when the realization finally strikes home, that you cannot easily ask everyone to permit 'another shot' when the action is fleeting and candid, after you chimp your shot and discover you flubbed it. It is valid to get people to pause and think "I am shooting her wedding photos, for the wedding she dreamed about since a little girl...Am I ready for that responsibility?"

[daclozer]

There were a lot of great points and I would definitley agree that there is a scary trend of " I just got a new digital camera and now I am going to get fat shooting weddings" going on right now. Those people need to slow down and realize the immense repsonsibility that they are undertaking. Wedding photography is down right hard work and very hard to do very well on a consistent basis. Anybody can take a good shot here and there, but to do it on cue when there is no seocnd chance takes real talent and experience. I was scared to death on my first shoot and I made some minor mistakes that I had to fix in post processing. But the look on the couples face when we sat down and started going through them was priceless. She started crying and getting all emotional just looking at them, they were ecstatic and I was very relieved. Those photos are very powerful to some people, you are so correct in your excellent description. On the other hand there are some very good photographers that maybe won't pursue stepping up to the big time for fear of failure after reading some of the posts on here. If someone is serious, has the talent / training and the fortitude to make a career of it, I would not want them to pursue their dreams... Thanks for the great post.

[Maureen Souza]

When I gave my niece her wedding album, she was almost speechless. She never has been one to take many photos and they were always a little dark or OOF. She said she won't remember who gave her the tea kettle and silver spoons for a gift but she will always remember that Auntie took her wedding photos. She has shared them with all her friends, family and co-workers.......and I am really happy that she loves them so much!

[Kyels]

Curtis, it really made me think. This post that you have written. From what I gathered, the couple whom I am going to shoot have their own set of shots already. The one that I'd be handling would be the one held in the hotel where people gather and have dinner together.

But nevertheless, I shall not let failure haunt me and perform at my very best.

(:

[ajbalazic]

Great post Curtis. Well told.

[mackb]

Great stuff! You should start a weekly wedding column to keep me focused. Great story!

[sugarzebra]

Great comment and god food for thought Curtis. The advent of digital photography has no doubt increased the number of aspiring wedding photographers. Our neice is getting married on Friday and the wedding album will be soley composed of shots obtained by the guests who will find two disposable cameras on each of the reception tables....I doubt there will be anything to frame and hang on the wall for the next fouty years! I'll take my camera and try to get a few shots that will hopefully be appreciated.

[Wilt]

Our neice is getting married on Friday and the wedding album will be soley composed of shots obtained by the guests who will find two disposable cameras on each of the reception tables....I doubt there will be anything to frame and hang on the wall for the next fouty years! I'll take my camera and try to get a few shots that will hopefully be appreciated.

Based upon the results of several weddings in the past year, for offspring of friends, the disposale P&S that are left around will largely result in JUNK photos, as the cameras are given to kids to keep them occupied...Lots of money wasted on the camera and on the processing!

[Curtis N]

the disposale P&S that are left around will largely result in JUNK photosI've heard stories of wedding guests taking those things into the restroom and capturing a "Kodak moment" WHILE they are doing their business.

Prepare your niece for some wedding memories she may not be expecting. Things can get ugly when cameras are mixed with alcohol.

[sugarzebra]

I've heard stories of wedding guests taking those things into the restroom and capturing a "Kodak moment" WHILE they are doing their business.

Prepare your niece for some wedding memories she may not be expecting. Things can get ugly when cameras are mixed with alcohol.

Thats why I feel some sense of obligation to take my gear and give it my best shot (pun intended :D). I've never done any wedding photography, but armed with a little information based on looking at a lot of great shots on this forum, we'll see what happens......if I'm brave, I may be able to have a first 'picture post' on the wedding forum next week!! Wish me luck.....I'm turning into the very guy that should have read your post and put the gear away Curtis!

[Joseph Hoetzl]

That is an excellent way of putting it...and brings back great memories of my own grandmother's "Wall of Pride".

Sad thing is that while I've only done the assistant/associate role once so far (got another one on Saturday!), my dad is a 30+ year seasoned wedding photographer and I rarely see that 16x20 get ordered anymore.
It seems so many want "all the proofs" as 4x6 prints, and how soon is my online album available, and can you make the background of my phone from "this" picture.

Sure there are some that order that gorgeous 16x20, but it seems to me to be less and less these days.

[symes]

Well put Curtis...this is very important for everyone to read...

Cheers,

[Wilt]

That is an excellent way of putting it...and brings back great memories of my own grandmother's "Wall of Pride".

Sad thing is that while I've only done the assistant/associate role once so far (got another one on Saturday!), my dad is a 30+ year seasoned wedding photographer and I rarely see that 16x20 get ordered anymore.
It seems so many want "all the proofs" as 4x6 prints, and how soon is my online album available, and can you make the background of my phone from "this" picture.

Sure there are some that order that gorgeous 16x20, but it seems to me to be less and less these days.

Yes, today's brides put no (or less and less) value on the wall portrait hanging somewhere! They gripe about spending as much on photography as on the DJ, too! And they often don't even bother to register for nice china for more formal entertaining, but get registered for the everydayware at Crate & Barrel for the less formal entertaining. Traditional values have gone by the wayside. Not bad, not good either, IMHO. Just 'different'. Cupcakes for wedding cakes?!?!?! I guess it is so much simpler and less effort to store two cupcakes in the freezer and thaw them on the 1st anniversary!

[Curtis N]

It seems so many want "all the proofs" as 4x6 prints, and how soon is my online album available, and can you make the background of my phone from "this" picture.The cell phone background thing made me chuckle. "Oh that's a great shot. I want a 0.01 megapixel version of that!" It's kinda sad, and perhaps it has something to do with the fact that a wedding isn't considered the once-in-a-lifetime event that it once was.

And the fact that people aren't ordering the big prints like they used to makes me wonder how many are trying to cheat - scanning the 4x6s they buy and printing larger versions at home.

[coreypolis]

The cell phone background thing made me chuckle. "Oh that's a great shot. I want a 0.01 megapixel version of that!" It's kinda sad, and perhaps it has something to do with the fact that a wedding isn't considered the once-in-a-lifetime event that it once was.

And the fact that people aren't ordering the big prints like they used to makes me wonder how many are trying to cheat - scanning the 4x6s they buy and printing larger versions at home.

ipod proofing is the newest thing. nothing like seeing your photos at 320x240

[Robgoldstein]

Curtis, you read my mind.

My favorite part of my job is delivering the pictures and hearing the ooo's and ahhhhh's as they gush over my photographer's work. BTW I represent several wedding photographers in Toronto, and get to deliver a lot of weddings.

It would kill me if they looked at the pictures and were not overjoyed. This is a very special day for them,and to have the pictures not live up to their expectations is just not acceptable.

[Banbert]

The cell phone background thing made me chuckle. "Oh that's a great shot. I want a 0.01 megapixel version of that!" It's kinda sad, and perhaps it has something to do with the fact that a wedding isn't considered the once-in-a-lifetime event that it once was.

And the fact that people aren't ordering the big prints like they used to makes me wonder how many are trying to cheat - scanning the 4x6s they buy and printing larger versions at home.

I dont think its got much to do with how weddings are valued these days at all ....... its just progress.

If a customer wants a picture converting to the right size for her mobile phone then great give her that, if a bride and groom want some pics of their big day adding to their iPod to take away on honeymoon with em then do your best to give them that (I did for my sis in law) how about offering a photo show screensaver as part of your package ? or if they want all the pics on CD to stick in their digital photo frame then thats something yah shouldnt feel bad about doing..... people use their photos in many different ways these days other than just hanging em on the wall.

Technology moves on and I see people here that have fully embraced the technology of digital cameras but then seem to expect their clients to carry on ordering the same standard pictures they could have gotten 50 years ago .... its a changing market.

[cdifoto]

I'm gonna go totally against the grain here and probably get flamed for this...BUT...

I treat a wedding as any other event. If I don't I get nervous as all hell and can't concentrate on what I'm there to do...shoot and capture moments. If my mindset is that it's any other day, it's easier to stay cool and confident. Am I the greatest photog out there? Not even close. But thinking the way I do prevents me from being the worst. It makes it easier for ME if I don't think of it as the most important day of her life - it is, of course, but in my mind it's any other event and I can work better that way.

That said. I already know what lenses to use. ;)

[coreypolis]

I'm gonna go totally against the grain here and probably get flamed for this...BUT...

I treat a wedding as any other event. If I don't I get nervous as all hell and can't concentrate on what I'm there to do...shoot and capture moments. If my mindset is that it's any other day, it's easier to stay cool and confident. Am I the greatest photog out there? Not even close. But thinking the way I do prevents me from being the worst. It makes it easier for ME if I don't think of it as the most important day of her life - it is, of course, but in my mind it's any other event and I can work better that way.

That said. I already know what lenses to use. ;)

if you have done some and have a system, thats great I guess. But the day that you aren't nervous about shooting something so memorable, is the day you should retire.

[cdifoto]

if you have done some and have a system, thats great I guess. But the day that you aren't nervous about shooting something so memorable, is the day you should retire.

I disagree. The bride and groom are usually nervous enough for everybody! Sometimes the photographer has to be the eye of the storm and take some control (but of course this depends on the shooting style. PJ then not so much, posed candids then moreso).

That's not to say I don't get thoughts like "Crap do I even deserve to take this much money? Am I ripping them off?" But then I have those thoughts all the time. :)

[coreypolis]

I disagree. The bride and groom are usually nervous enough for everybody! Sometimes the photographer has to be the eye of the storm and take some control (but of course this depends on the shooting style. PJ then not so much, posed candids then moreso).

That's not to say I don't get thoughts like "Crap do I even deserve to take this much money? Am I ripping them off?" But then I have those thoughts all the time. :)

best of luck to ya, but from experience, the day you start acting confident and above all, is the day the memory card goes bad, the camera dies, the flash goes, have the wrong settings etc.

Theres nothing wrong with showing professionalism and confidence, but theres no way theres no thoughts and 2nd guesses running through the back of my mind.

[cdifoto]

best of luck to ya, but from experience, the day you start acting confident and above all, is the day the memory card goes bad, the camera dies, the flash goes, have the wrong settings etc.

Theres nothing wrong with showing professionalism and confidence, but theres no way theres no thoughts and 2nd guesses running through the back of my mind.

Actually I find the opposite. It's probably just my personality at play, but when I'm nervous things go bad and I get flustered. When I'm calm they might still go bad but I can usually fix them fast. As far as something dying...every wedding photog should have backup equipment anyway.

[TheSteveMadden]

...from experience, the day you start acting confident and above all, is the day the memory card goes bad, the camera dies, the flash goes, have the wrong settings etc.

Theres nothing wrong with showing professionalism and confidence, but theres no way theres no thoughts and 2nd guesses running through the back of my mind.

There's a difference between confidence based on ignorance and confidence based on experience and preparation. I think Don's point is that once you've done all the preparation necessary and have every plan "B" in place where possible, worrying won't help one bit. Anxiety about those things you can't control can adversely effect mental focus.

As an example, consider winning quarterbacks, they know how to stay calm and collected even when the game isn't going their way.

PS: I was a nervous WRECK my first wedding, and almost killed my assistant. Thank goodness I didn't, as she's now my wife :) Those were film days and I was young and naive with no Curtis to warn me. Haven't shot a digital wedding or any wedding in years.

[fstop212]

WOW- that was beautifully written and it really touched my heart. I wish that you could give that out to every person that buys a DSLR because they all think that because they can buy an "L" lens they are professional photographers. I've seen more crap wedding photographs in the past 2 years then ever before.
Great great artical

[cdifoto]

WOW- that was beautifully written and it really touched my heart. I wish that you could give that out to every person that buys a DSLR because they all think that because they can buy an "L" lens they are professional photographers. I've seen more crap wedding photographs in the past 2 years then ever before.
Great great artical

And I've see the same "crap wedding photographs" absolutely adored by the family. :rolleyes:

[Wilt]

And I've see the same "crap wedding photographs" absolutely adored by the family. :rolleyes:

Only because, for the family, they see loved ones in the photo. To others outside the family, it's just another poor to mediocre snapshot taken of people they know! Just because the family can't see past the photographic shortcomings does not excuse the photographer for the creation of the crap wedding photo though!

[cdifoto]

Only because, for the family, they see loved ones in the photo. To others outside the family, it's just another poor to mediocre snapshot taken of people they know! Just because the family can't see past the photographic shortcomings does not excuse the photographer for the creation of the crap wedding photo though!

You're absolutely right, however sometimes the "crap" really isn't all that bad. It all depends though. 100% subjective. And the goal is to please the clients, not other photographers...or even other people for that matter. It just makes it harder to get new clients. :)

[Wilt]

You're absolutely right, however sometimes the "crap" really isn't all that bad. ...It just makes it harder to get new clients. :)

For every time the "crap isn't that bad", there is the other time when the "crap really stinks!" ;) There are enough tales on this forum about friends/relatives who hired someone naively and ended up with nothing (which is what you have after flushing the toilet!) and the forum member trying to aid the victim. And while a victim does not give endorsements to other clients, the culprit does find more victims who haven't a clue! :(

[cosworth]

I have my first full wedding in November. A beach wedding that is formal but still very laid back. I am so thankful for having th eopportunity to cut my teeth with smaller less structured weddings so that when the big ones comes I will be prepared.

I read this twice and printed it out. It hangs on the wall beside my computers.

[Wilt]

I have my first full wedding in November. A beach wedding that is formal but still very laid back. I am so thankful for having th eopportunity to cut my teeth with smaller less structured weddings so that when the big ones comes I will be prepared.

I read this twice and printed it out. It hangs on the wall beside my computers.


Use fill flash!!!

Use camera on M once you have proper shutter speed and f/stop compbination worked out to compensate for the bright beach scene!

[sswanson]

... how easy it is to get pressured into taking on an assignment we may not be prepared for.
Agreed. I think as long as there as so many amateurs in the world turning out acceptable quality "snapshots," there will be people who will pressure them to do their weddings.

Though everyone must start somewhere, (and some will doubtless become great) the tough part will be for pro-ams to know they should decline and for the engaged folks to know enough not to ask. True professionals don't want to dirty their reputation by doing a lousy job in such a high-profile way, but a non-photog has no real reputation to protect. Similarly, those asking need to understand the importance of these photos.

On a related note: the photography world has been undergoing a change as the ability to take high quality photos has become far more accessible to the public. While this can be a fearsome thought to pros who now have more competition, it should have little impact on those able to use their skills to create memorable photos. This is in my opinion the key difference between a skilled photog and people like me. The pros have learned how to take better photos - no matter what equipment they use, their photos will be better than those taken by an unskilled noob, no matter the equipment used.

[Curtis N]

the photography world has been undergoing a change as the ability to take high quality photos has become far more accessible to the public.I'm not sure what you mean by that. In the film days, a cheap 35mm body would make pictures just as well as an expensive one (albeit with less user control). Anyone could buy the same film the pros used and take it to the same labs. Good lenses are still as expensive as they always were.

What has changed is the learning curve, with the instant feedback and EXIF info from digital, and invaluable learning resources like this forum. But that's only an advantage to those willing to invest the time to learn.

[johnstoy]

I'm glad, you more experienced Guys/Gals are in this heated discussion...This topic deserves it...

I might get around to doing a wedding...It will be a family thing...

I shot some exclusive PICS in candle light at St. Patrick's Cathedral, NYC, and it was not easy on the nerves at all.

The Chancellor Of Ireland visited with my boss during the St. Patrick's Day Parade....

Needless to say, arriving 90 minutes early helped me to set up appropriately, near the Altar. Thereafter the light meter saved the day...

Knowing now that only candle light would provide all the lighting, pre-metering the shooting site was instrumental.

This was some 30 years ago, while I was in the employ (not as a photographer) of the District Attorney's Office. It was a last minute call for my Supervisor.

I'm retired and photography has always been a respected and serious hobby for me...Good luck.

PS: Wish I had a 85mm 1.2 then...

[sswanson]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. In the film days, a cheap 35mm body would make pictures just as well as an expensive one (albeit with less user control). Anyone could buy the same film the pros used and take it to the same labs. Good lenses are still as expensive as they always were.


Though I agree that the basic equipment has been available for a long time, what I do think is different is the access to cameras and film as well as a decrease in the requirements (both time and money) to learn the art. Today's cameras require very little knowledge for basic use, and can be purchased relatively inexpensively. Combine this with the fact that film and development is free and you can 'print' them for as many friends and family as you like on a web site, and you have created an environment where there are more individuals learning that they like photography than ever before. Add on to this the instant gratification of digital and glut of free information online, and you have a situation where there are lots of people walking around with big expensive-looking cameras taking pictures.

As mentioned in the original post, most people can't tell the difference between a 'guy with camera' and a serious photographer anymore. As we all know, it takes more than an SLR camera and a white lens to make a really good photo. This was the point I was attempting to make.

[twinsrus]

I have read all the posts in this thread. I hear you, Curtis. But I don't fully agree with you.

I'm shooting my niece's wedding this weekend. I shot another niece's wedding in May. I shot about a dozen back in the late 70s and early 80s, and baby, digital is a whole new world. Between the May wedding and the one this weekend, my knowledge of digital has increased a hundred fold, and I have spent the last couple months learning how to shoot pictures all over again, and I'm still not happy with my pics, but that's good. My wife would say I am obsessing. Wedding photography takes skill, and it takes an eye to capture what is happening. Reading posts on this site has been a real eye-opening, but also a great training ground, and the encouragement from fellow photographers is heartening. But like Bill said, just because you think it is right doesn't make it so. So while I agree that it takes unique talent to shoot the pictures we are trying to deliver, the kind that make the bride take them to work and others start calling you because they were so great - hey, it is in the eyes of those that look at them, and we can't control that. We do the best we can, hope the equipment doesn't crap out, hope we remember all the pics they want, and hope the B & G like them. Because it's about them, not us

We all have to start somewhere. Everyone started with that first picture, and it opened up a life-long love of photography. Some are just further along than others. So stop picking on us. I hope someday I am as good as I imagine you are. And I really mean that.

[Wilt]

Though I agree that the basic equipment has been available for a long time, what I do think is different is the access to cameras and film as well as a decrease in the requirements (both time and money) to learn the art. ...Today's cameras require very little knowledge for basic use, and can be purchased relatively inexpensively. .

The relative affordability I disagree about...one could buy an SLR for $170-200 brand new, body plus normal lens. $250 got your a pretty fancy SLR not at the bottom of the lineup! Today's entry level dSLR is 4x the expense plus you have to own a computer and monitor printer if you want to do anything other than take it to the drugstore machine print.

When I was just out of college back then, $230 was a week's wages and you could buy a pretty darn good SLR for that. You would have to earn $41000 per year to afford a starter 350D from B&H, comparatively!


Combine this with the fact that film and development is free and you can 'print' them for as many friends and family as you like on a web site, and you have created an environment where there are more individuals learning that they like photography than ever before. .


This assumes that you already own a computer and monitor and printer, which is not necessarily true! I have a nephew who we gave an inexpensive digital camera for Xmas one year, and there were other things we had to give him, too, to get him started...he has a father on permanent disability so the household is not sitting in the position of buying all this stuff for him! Otherwise drugstore prints cost the same for digital or film prints. (Yes, you save on film and film processing costs.)


Add on to this the instant gratification of digital and glut of free information online, and you have a situation where there are lots of people walking around with big expensive-looking cameras taking pictures.

As mentioned in the original post, most people can't tell the difference between a 'guy with camera' and a serious photographer anymore. As we all know, it takes more than an SLR camera and a white lens to make a really good photo. This was the point I was attempting to make.

On these points I agree.

[Curtis N]

We all have to start somewhere. Everyone started with that first picture, and it opened up a life-long love of photography. Some are just further along than others. So stop picking on us. I hope someday I am as good as I imagine you are. And I really mean that.Dick, You wouldn't have to be very good to reach the level I'm at.

Seriously, I haven't mentioned my own skills or experience anywhere in this thread. I just related a story to help put things into perspective for those considering such an undertaking. And to be honest, my skills and experience aren't anywhere near what I would consider the bare minimum for a wedding photographer. And for that reason, if I'm ever asked to do one, I would politely decline. I think I'm at the point where I can walk into most situations and produce pretty good images most of the time. But most of the time isn't good enough for a wedding.

Yes, we all have to start somewhere, and learn somehow. And there are a multitude of ways to improve our skills outside the wedding environment. If you take some kid's senior pictures and they turn out like crap, you can do a reshoot. If the parents decide you're a hack, they can pick up the phone and call someone else and do it again. No permanent damage done. Many specialties of photography are like that.

But a wedding is a different story. A once-in-a-lifetime event with no second chances. It is a terrible place for on-the-job training. We need to develop our skills in other venues. And it also wouldn't hurt to gain some experience as an assistant to learn the ropes, too.

[twinsrus]

I haven't mentioned my own skills or experience anywhere in this thread.
True, but based on your comments I have read on this site, you are an excellent photographic technician.

Wedding photography is a choice. You've found other ways to make photography work for you as a craft. If you needed to, you could do weddings. But you have made a choice not to, and everyone should respect that.

And it also wouldn't hurt to gain some experience as an assistant to learn the ropes, too.
Not sure that would be welcome around here. Seems to be a common way to do it in other countries. One local photographer offered to look at my work after I had shot a dozen weddings, but wasn't willing to allow me to assist. I think too many people look at it as competition and are unwilling to help anyone get started, even though I don't perceive myself to be a threat at the level they might be at.

I enjoy reading your posts and hope to continue learning from you and others.

[Philco]

I do hear the complaint that amateurs are flooding the market because of digital, but I think what digital has brought to the amateur, really, is just the ability to overshoot like crazy, and fix a lot of mistakes in PS. In that sense, I think more amateurs feel that if they just shoot enough frames, they'll get enough good ones to make their shots look right, even if it takes 30 hours of PS work to dial in shots that should have been captured correctly in the camera in the first place. With film, obviously we didn't have the luxury of shooting 1,000's of frames on a wedding day. You either go it right, or you didn't.

[twinsrus]

Phil -

That always has me scratching my head that someone shoots 1000+ pictures at a wedding. Instead of a person sneezing, you're getting the windup, the sneeze and the handkerchief, when all you need is the sneeze (probably a bad example, but you get the drift).

You are also right - either you get it or you don't.

[Wilt]

Phil -

That always has me scratching my head that someone shoots 1000+ pictures at a wedding. Instead of a person sneezing, you're getting the windup, the sneeze and the handkerchief, when all you need is the sneeze (probably a bad example, but you get the drift).

You are also right - either you get it or you don't.

I have seen some posts on this forum about 3000-6000 shots fired! My own daughter was provided 3500 shots on CD and it took them MONTHS to go thru and select from this heap!

[Curtis N]

My own daughter was provided 3500 shots on CD and it took them MONTHS to go thru and select from this heap!Too bad her dad didn't know any decent wedding photographers. ;)

[Philco]

Between a primary and secondary shooter, it would be pretty easy to rack up 4,000 plus images. The few highly paid pro's that I know average at least that every wedding. Perhaps one of the differences between the pro's and the amateurs is that the pro will net them down to the best 20% before passing them on to a client or posting their galleries on the web. Some amateurs equate quantity with quality and think they're doing their client a favor by burying them in an avalanche of shots, regardless of how redundant or techincially poor they may be.

[Wilt]

Too bad her dad didn't know any decent wedding photographers. ;)

You wise ess! He did, but he was booked already!:p

Besides, what kid do you know who LISTENS to their parents???

[Redbird_xo]

what kid do you know who LISTENS to their parents???

Mine does...hmm...she is almost 3-year-old. :lol:

[Wilt]

Mine does...hmm...she is almost 3-year-old. :lol:

Oh, you better withdraw that statement as fast as you can, or the bad karma will come back to haunt you thru her years as a teen! ;)

[Joseph Hoetzl]

One more thing I learned in the "assitant" role, it isn't just about taking great pictures. It is also about knowing how to work with a Bride's train, sweat (when to politely de-shine), and more stuff like that...

a) Maid O' Honor has only done this maybe once or twice, and wedding photographers have seen it dozens of times

b) There isn't always a Maid O' Honor, or even a wedding party, so the photographer has to fill that role.

Great comments in here!

[MagicallyDelicious]

fantastic post

[JaGWiRE]

I haven't read through this thread (other then the first post), but sometimes I think a lot of people here shooting Weddings do it just for the money, and are rather amateur who maybe should be assisting. I probably shouldn't comment though because I've no experience with wedding photography.


For my sister's sweet sixteen, my mom hired an amateur, and she has been dissapointed ever since, whenever she show's that photo of my sister taken by the amateur which lies in her purse, she always frowns and says "I should have hired a professional."

For my Barmitzvah, we searched and searched, and we found a guy, and although we don't have the photos yet, he seemed to be a master of poses. I did doubt his photographing skills a little (although I have a feeling he might have known exactly what he was doing, but didn't show it off) (setting settings perfectly and exposure and stuff if you are curious what I mean), but he had the right poses, and I think that can matter even more then somebody who can get perfect lighting and so forth (what good is a perfectly taken photo if the people in it look like they fell off the moon?)

[Wilt]

For my Barmitzvah, we searched and searched, and we found a guy, and although we don't have the photos yet, he seemed to be a master of poses. I did doubt his photographing skills a little (although I have a feeling he might have known exactly what he was doing, but didn't show it off) (setting settings perfectly and exposure and stuff if you are curious what I mean), but he had the right poses, and I think that can matter even more then somebody who can get perfect lighting and so forth (what good is a perfectly taken photo if the people in it look like they fell off the moon?)

Poses are one of the most poorly understood and least practiced aspects of photographic skill. Monte Zucker is an example of a master.

[jameslcross]

Excellent advise!

[20DNewbie]

Curtis that has got to be the most thorough, thought out, most accurate reason not to shoot weddings until the photog has the skill level to do so I've ever seen posted anywhere. Congrats to you!

Ever since I started getting into this hobby I've spoken to others(IRL) who seem to think just because they've gone out and bought a camera they will be able to go get jobs while having zero experience.

Marriage is supposed to be one of the most important days in a B&Gs' lives, it would be a shame for someone to come along saying that they are a wedding photog just to screw the pooch to make a fast buck.

Then again, that's just my take on the matter and I've been known to be wrong at times.:lol::lol::lol:

[bcap]

Bump.

Great thread and I think some people need to give this a read.

[jamesdean007]

Very good thread - certainly worthy of a bump to revive it.

[picturecrazy]

awesome. glad to see this post revived.

[turbo212003]

I don't understand how some of you have this "doom and gloom" look of starting out in wedding photography. I think if you price yourself accordingly, have a clear understanding of what the clients want and don't want, make it clear what level you're on and have a good contract to protect yourself, I don't think there should be a problem but it seems like people around here are afraid to take a chance. I mean really, if this is how some of you feel, how do you get out of bed in the morning....

[davidgr]

It's simple, not everyone has or uses a contract (like they should), and not everyone understands the mere basics of photography but they want to go out and shoot a wedding.

Oh, and brides will tell you, "oh, that's okay, we're just looking for some snapshots to remember the day", but what they're really expecting is magazine quality images. So when you hand them what you told them they would get (snapshots), they're not happy and sue you. Oh, wait, you don't have a contract cuz you thought you didn't need one cuz you did it for free. Uh huh.

[sapearl]

I don't understand how some of you have this "doom and gloom" look of starting out in wedding photography. I think if you price yourself accordingly, have a clear understanding of what the clients want and don't want, make it clear what level you're on and have a good contract to protect yourself, I don't think there should be a problem ...........

Maybe we've seen too many disasters reported here and elsewhere ;) , not that I would wish that on anybody.

It's OK to start outsomewhere - I certainly did with my share of mistakes - but good guidance, knowledge and gear is really critical if you don't want to end up not disappointing somebody at the very least, or really making them angry at the worst.

Like David said, very often what brides say and what they want are 2 different things :rolleyes: .... and that's because it's human nature to "assume" things. And we all know what goes into the spelling of assume. WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER does have a certain pro mystique in a lot of people's minds, even though we all are not on the same page. But fortunatley we all read in the same POTN Library - I know..... bad pun. - Stu

[FJ LOVE]

great post curtis ,a freind wants me to assist with a wedding in about 2 months,so he calls and says what equipment do you think i'll need.
now i totally see where your post is coming from,i've only been shooting for six months.
mind you i have been studying this forum for about that long i realize just how wrong it is to take on this type of comitment without the proper experience.
i am studying the wedding forum now so i can best prepare myself to assist the best way i can , but have a feeling i may not be assisting.
thanks for some good food for thoght

[ngineer]

Curtis, thanks so much for posting this.

My story on being inexperienced at a wedding:
(videography in this case, but the general philosophy still applies):

A few years ago, I'd just gotten access to a Canon XL2 (in the high-prosumer/less-expensive pro range of video cameras, akin to a 20D in still photography) for use on the weekends to videotape events for an organization. A very close friend of mine also involved in the organization was the wedding coordinator for her cousin. The bride didn't budget for a videographer, but her other cousin was going to be in the middle of climbing K2 in the Himalayas during the wedding. Hence, I allowed myself to be cajoled into being the *sole* videographer so that the climber could see the wedding. Because of my complete inexperience, I volunteered to do it for nothing, but the non-profit organization asked her to pay them a few hundred dollars for use of the camera for the day.

The wedding went largely well, but video is incredibly unforgiving, because every jostle, noise burst, wind, etc. is immortalized forever. In my inexperience, I wasn't a very stable cameraman, and while I captured many things well, the total flow wasn't that great. The bride told me that she didn't want a lot of editing, but I couldn't rightly turn over the footage to her as it was, so I told her that I would do some editing to clean it up.
I had major computer problems including loss of the data, so I had to re-import and re-edit the video, and then got horribly busy at my day job, so it took several months before I got the video done. The bride's family was super angry with me, especially since they'd paid money (mind you, not to me, but that point is irrelevant, once somebody's angry). This issue became a major bump in the relationship between the close friend of mine and me.

In retrospect, I got caught up in trying to make the footage look good, and should have just done a tape dump and a rudimentary edit.
Or, really, what I should have done was completely decline, because I
had completely bitten off more than I could chew.

Fast forward to a couple of years later:
Another close friend of mine in the same organization got married. Her aunt is a Hollywood producer down in LA, so she was going to handle the editing. I was asked to be one of three cameramen for the wedding, and I happily agreed. At the end of the wedding, I pulled the tape out of the camera, handed it over to the producer, and went on my way. The footage came out great (after all, we had three camera perspectives to choose from).

I'd used the equipment for a couple of years every weekend, so I understood so much more about its capabilities (and inabilities), and I knew my own capabilities and limitations. I experimented with a few things and some quicker motion/edgier shots at the rehearsal, but played it safe during the wedding and got some great footage.

The main difference between the two experiences?
--Experience (equipment, lighting, achieving the right look-and-feel, understanding how what I did as a shooter affected the post-processing)
--No stress over being *the* critical link

I don't think that the parent post is a discouragement against amateurs at all, it's just a healthy wake-up call to how significant the wedding day is.

After all, the goal is to make it a happy day for the couple, do you want to be the bad memory?

[ngineer]

As a side note to my previous post, during the second wedding that I videotaped, I had the privilege of working while Brook and Alisha Todd,
recently named as one of the World's Top Ten Wedding Photographers in American Photo Magazine 2007, photographed the wedding.
They were incredibly friendly and very unassuming as they did their job.
During the night outdoor reception, I was using a video light to record the couple, and they worked with the lighting situation to create some remarkable high-contrast images. If you look at their reviews, they've obviously captured the wedding day very well for many people.
http://www.alishabrook.com/galleries01/Reviews.html

As for myself, when my wife and I got married almost two months ago,
David Boeck (http://www.daveckstudios.com) in San Antonio was our photographer. Below is a portion of the thank you note that I sent to him and his staff:

"We're so excited to have had our happy day captured so beautifully. Even though the purpose was to capture some very happy memories for us, spending time with you while capturing those moments has made those memories even happier. It's been a true joy!"

That's the kind of reaction that I'd want from my clients, so I'm hesitant to enter the wedding photography arena until my skills are up to par, once I've cut my teeth on lower-stakes event photography.

[SBCmetroguy]

Great post, this is my first time seeing it.

Unfortunately I have decided to do a wedding with no prior wedding photography experience. However the ONLY reason I decided on it was because the mother of the bride is putting this wedding on very cheaply and can't afford a pro. Her only option was a kid with a p&s, and she's seen my pictures and love them. I've explained to her that this is a huge day for her daughter and everyone, and I'm not experienced with shooting people. Despite all that, she still thinks I'd be better than the kid with the p&s. She has a good point, and as humble as I am, I do still agree with her.

So I agreed to do it, but forewarned her about her possibly hating me forever for screwing up her daughter's wedding photos. But there's still a much better chance of her getting decent photos from me than from the kid with the p&s and no experience.

I'm going to hold my breath and do this, and just hope for the best. Afterward I will try to focus on assisting rather than shooting weddings. It's a huge step that I truly do feel I'm not prepared for.

[puddlepirate44]

Well said, Curtis. Thank you. It's a wise thing to consider the cost.... Thanks again.

[MrTED]

Thank you Curtis, even as someone who has shot around 40 weddings so far, it makes me take a reality check and put some perspective on my work.

One comment I would like to make about this thread... a few people mentioned that if you don't get nervous then you should get out of the game. I disagree, but in context, what I mean by this is you don't necessarily need to be "nervous" as much as cautious. I am never nervous, but always cautious, wary and always, always, always over prepared for something to go wrong. I NEVER assume everything will go ok.

Some people thrive at the time of being nervous, for me, I thrive when I am not nervous, when I have checked and double checked everything and when I have accounted for any outcome I can think of. I am not cocky enough think that because I plan so well that everything will be smooth sailing, only a fool would think that, but I have the confidence that I have prepared as much as possible, the rest will come from skill and adrenaline.

There is a difference between nerves and adrenaline. Nerves are a lack of confidence or experience to perform the task, adrenaline is more acknowledging that shooting the wedding will capture a major part of someone’s life, but having the confidence to know that you can do the job well.

Skill and Adrenaline, and not nerves, should be the key to getting you through the rest of the day. Nerves make most people a bundling mess, but adrenaline gets the heart pumping and allows you to do things that you may not have done otherwise. Those who are overconfident don’t get that rush, and I believe you cannot do the job without that rush.

I think that is probably they key, plan for every possible outcome, even though you will not be able to cover them all. I hope what everyone meant was that someone who goes out with complete confidence should not be shooting weddings, then I agree fully. Someone who does not get an adrenaline rush shooting a wedding should not be doing it. Someone who is nervous should think twice before shooting a wedding.

Don’t get me wrong, if you are shooting your first wedding, no matter how prepared you are, you will be nervous. But if you are serious about shooting, then rather than doing it alone, have the same person you have been assisting for the past few months or years assist you on the day. Anything else is taking a risk.

This is not a job to be taken lightly, but being nervous doesn’t make you any better.

Just my thoughts...

Nathan

[Wilt]

Mr. Ted and Curtis, I agree with what you say. When I hear of a relative newcomer to photography, taking a job 'for hire' rather than 'at cost, as a favor to someone who otherwise will have no photographic coverage', I think that 'nervous' is often not present simply because they are too naive to know enough to feel nervous! They have neither the skills nor the insight to be nervous...'naive' and unskilled'. That is even worse than 'skillful but nervous', when both are doing it for hire!

[SR071]

Wilt, your paragraph can be summed up in 3 words.

Ignorance is bliss!

[Wilt]

Wilt, your paragraph can be summed up in 3 words.

Ignorance is bliss!

From the perspective of the shooter, "Ignorance is blessed."

From the perspective of the client, "Ignorance is blasted."