Need advice... anybody?.. please?

[saravrose]

Where to start.. So, I went to our resorts softball game and took some photos just playing around having a good time.. had some printed off and put in a couple of my proof albums that I had laying around and they got passed around the resort.. and somehow landed in the even coordinators office.. Apparently she liked them and asked to see some more of my shots.. I didn't think anything of it and showed her a couple shoots from my photobucket.. and then she asks me if I would mind taking some shots of the construction going on around the resort for the website..

That's no big deal why not?... and then she asks if I'd be interested in maybe shooting some events that she's booking... that's where I get a little uncomfortable. First thought comes to mind is that these folks up here are rich and have some incredibly high standards, secondly that I don't have the gear to accomodate a lot of the environments that I'd be shooting, and I'm just not sure if i'd have any fun and don't want to begin something that I would rather not do... and then the aspect of the restaurant manager who hired me being less than thrilled at the event staff trying to hijack her employees (her words not mine)..

Ofcourse the upside is money, i'd much rather be shooting than pouring drinks and it could potentially be fun.. So, I need to show her the photos that I took for her early next week and then she wants to have some kind of answer so opinions?.. Part of me wants to say yeah, sure you and my other bosses fight out where i'm at and when and part of me wants to just pass on doing much more than landscape shots keeping myself stress free and just sticking with my original plan when I first moved up here.... So, is it an oppurtunity and I should give it a try? Or am I going to be biting off more than I can chew and i'd be better off passing?..

sari

[joeseph]

Hmmmm.... tough choice really, depends on wether you want to cross the line between taking photographs for your own enjoyment, & taking them as a professional and having the content dictated by the client. personally I'd pass unless the sort of photo's were similar or close to what you already shoot. Hope it all works out...

[JCR]

Don't get anywhere in life by hiding under the covers, get out and do it ;)

[pagefile]

First thought comes to mind is that these folks up here are rich and have some incredibly high standards, secondly that I don't have the gear to accomodate a lot of the environments that I'd be shooting,

It sounds like to me that you now have an opportunity to become pro if you want. You will have allot of people that will see your work ("these folks up here are rich") that can give you more work.

Take the money you get from the construction shoot and buy more gear that you need. Then relax and do the other shoot. If your tense it will show through in your shots and the folks at the events you are photographing, it may make them uncomfortable.

So I say go for it, it could be a SHOT of a lifetime to move up and out.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[condyk]

Go with your vibes. I don't personally agree with JCR. Some opportunities are worth going for and some aren't. Life's not all about money and getting out there. You need to reflect on this. Sometimes it's nice to stay under cover. Overall, having had high profile jobs and responsibility, I now prefer more quality of life. Each to their own. There is no right answer.

In this situation you need to be careful. You have a fairly good situation already from POV of earning money and security. That depends on your current boss to a high degree. I would find out what the new opportunity entails in detail and what the expectations might be and the rewards. It may be that you can get all the gear you need based on financial support of the Resort.

I'd then chat to your current boss and offer a solution, i.e. maybe split the work. I assume you'd need to earn good money doing the photo side to compensate for loss of basic and tips. Also, the photo side won't give cash unless people are there and want the service. Bar work is more consistent I guess. Be careful not to p*ss off your current boss. That depends on his/her personality and your relationship with them I guess. Maybe you can ebb and flow across the different jobs depending on demand.

[Skrim17]

If you want to, you could suggest they purchase the equipment for you so that you could accomodate their needs. If you want to shoot the events be honest and tell them you need to 'warm up' with something small and get comfortable and let them see what you can do. Can't hurt and it could really generate some income if you want it to as well as be a great learning experience.

Conversely if you don't want photography to be work, you might decline. I know events can be harder than the 'fun' stuff, however if you are the event photographer for the resort and it is something they might not have had before you have the oppotunity to make the position into what you want it to be, really rather exciting.
Either way I would be up front about the equipment so that you know you can do the best job for them.

[JCR]

I wasn't thinking of the money condyk, more the life experience :)
But you do give good advice and make valid points.

[ayotnoms]

I suspect that deep down, you already know which way you should go. I advise you to trust that instinct. We can offer opinions/suggestions/advice but only you know the real trade-offs (cordial personal/business relationships, earning potential, the transition to being a paid photographer, etc).

On the photography end itself, you'll do fine. Faced with your first assignment you'll hit your stride after the initial nervousness has eased.

Really, it sounds like a great opportunity. Nail it down and I suspect there will be no further family controversies concerning the photo gear you buy....yeah, I remember "the thing" concerning your 70-200 buy a few months ago. :lol:

Good Luck. I'm confident you'll make the right decision.

[peterdoomen]

You could offer to do one relatively innocent photoshoot for them for a fixed but low price, then show the results. If they like it, they can hire you for other occasions and you can haggle about the price. If not, nothing is lost. Should be comfortable for you and your client.

P.

[Steve Parr]

As long as shooting pictures doesn't interfere with you regular duties, there shouldn't be a problem...

[GilesGuthrie]

If you show the co-ordinator you work, and she likes it, this is like you passing an audition. You're demonstrating your capability. So you're fine on that score. I think - having seen some of your shots here - that you have the talent to do it, but it's really in the eye of the co-ordinator.

Discuss it with your current boss though. You'll still be working for the resort, so there should be scope to distribute your duties around.

Sometimes people become scared to leave their comfort zones, even when a great opportunity comes along. I think you should go for it. But take care not to burn your bridges.

[stupot]

i dont know what you do for a living but if you have no intentions of being a pro photographer then i dont think theres any harm in it:) you have no reputation to damage. i saw your softball pictures, they were great, and im sure you'll be able to apply yourself to her needs (rise to the challenge and all that rubbish:)) even if you've never shot those kindof events before. it could be fun, and if it goes well which im sure it will, it may open up even more doors for you.

i'd say go for it, these opportunities don't come around often, you'll only kick yourself later.

[Steve Parr]

But take care not to burn your bridges.

Absolutely, without question, the best advice thus far...

[saravrose]

sorry for not getting back to this thread sooner.. the weekend was crazy.. I think i'm going to sit back.. She is interested in seeing some of my landscapes from around the resort and I'm going to get those to her.. I already told her no huge parties, weddings etc... I bartended a four hundred person wedding and I know without a doubt that as a photographer I am not up for that kind of environment.. But, for smaller events as long as i'm not needed for the job I was brought her to do, as long as I feel like I have the gear to cover the situations I'll give them a try... I think the hardest part for me is the responsibilities to the management that hired me, provided me with housing, and moved me up here, the resort is broken up into different areas, jobs, responsibilities food and beverage doesn't interact with real estate or the room management etc... Kind of a wait and see for now, I didn't say no to any work I just didn't say yes just yet.. with the exception of the landscape shots.. thank you all for the advice and I'll let you know how it turns out....

sari

[Steve Parr]

I bartended a four hundred person wedding and I know without a doubt that as a photographer I am not up for that kind of environment.

Are there even four hundred people living in Idaho??

Hehehehe... Just joshin'...

[SuzyView]

Sari, you have good equipment, but to do the job right, you need a back up, maybe some better glass, good printers, etc. to make it very professional. You are right to restrict the work to where you are comfortable. If you feel the least bit taken advantage of, speak to the boss. It's really important that you establish that you have just so much time and energy. I know when taking pictures becomes a business with no fun, it's really no fun.

[cdifoto]

Are there even four hundred people living in Idaho??

Hehehehe... Just joshin'...

Of course not Steve. It was a wedding; they were imported. :)

[Col_M]

First thought comes to mind is that these folks up here are rich and have some incredibly high standards
Many people have high standards not just rich people, taste, style and appreciation of good art are three things you can'y buy (and quite a few people with copious amounts of money are severely lacking in) ;)

I've seen your work before and in that respect you have nothing to worry about :) Should you do it? that's completely up to you but if you do try it just have fun :)

[CyberDyneSystems]

The first rule of thumb in my own line of work, which is similar to event photograpy in many ways is this

Rule #1 "Take the Money"

Unlike Rule #2 ("when in doubt, hit it with a hammer") I find that RUle #1 seems to apply to most lines of work almost universally. What this means is that when the boss, client etc asks if you can do something .. for $$,.. you allways say YES! And then figure how to do it FAST!

There is nothing that will boost a learning curve/study period like pressure :)

Go for it :)

[cdifoto]

The first rule of thumb in my own line of work, which is similar to event photograpy in many ways is this

Rule #1 "Take the Money"

Unlike Rule #2 ("when in doubt, hit it with a hammer") I find that RUle #1 seems to apply to most lines of work almost universally. What this means is that when the boss, client etc asks if you can do something .. for $$,.. you allways say YES! And then figure how to do it FAST!

There is nothing that will boost a learning curve/study period like pressure :)

Go for it :)

LMAO I live by that philosophy!

Never turn down a paying gig! You never know when someone else comes along when photographer #1 is finally ready, but potential client #1 tells potential client #2 that photographer #1 said he/she isn't ready to take on paid work, so potential client #2 looks to photographer #2, before even asking photographer #1.

[JAZZ D.P.G.]

Can't do both?

Do what you went up to do, and "pick and choose" the photo oportunities that interest you. Take the extra cash and increase your equipment list to expand your choices.

this way you can control your life, too.

You have the skill, and the now the oportunity to improve and expand.

Interesting opportunity.

[saravrose]

Are there even four hundred people living in Idaho??

Hehehehe... Just joshin'...

very funny Mr. California.. yes there are folks in Idaho.. not nearly as many as in San Diego but there are people..

[Mark_Cohran]

Sara, I'd say that you should agree to do as many shoots as you're comfortable doing, with the understanding that they can't interfere with your primary job, unless the Event Coordinator is willing to hire you on as the official Resort Photographer. Earn some extra cash, get some exposure (all puns intended), and gain some additional experience.

Mark

[Steve Parr]

very funny Mr. California.. yes there are folks in Idaho.. not nearly as many as in San Diego but there are people..

Well, when you take their picture, make sure you use your flash. You guys don't have 'lectricity and indoor lighting yet, do ya'?

:lol:

[saravrose]

Well, when you take their picture, make sure you use your flash. You guys don't have 'lectricity and indoor lighting yet, do ya'?

:lol:

no... and my horse driven wagon is waiting outside my condo to take me to the grocery store... oh, wait... not grocery store... the mercantile or trading post or whatever the heck it was a hundred years ago....

sari

[saravrose]

wow.. Okay, so I guess I really am going to shoot for my work. My boss made a face and I left as he and the upstairs folks were having a conversation about who gets my time when... I have a list of places and things that they need shots of. There paying fifty dollars an hour plus any extra expenses including any gear that I may need. Some how I wasn't sure if it was really going to happen.. but, it's mostly landscapes and photos of the theatre, new hotel rooms, several from the golf course and from various areas of the resort.. The first round will be done in the next three weeks before the colors change and then again in the fall and maybe once winter hits they could want some different views with snow... So, incredibly nervous trying to think of my gear and what I may need and don't have.. almost considering getting the pretty Tammy everybody's always talking about and selling off my 28-105mm.. Shooting everything in RAW so my 4G's of memory might not be sufficient... Now, how do I teach myself to do sports shots of golf and tennis?... and action shots of the fine dining and bar with folks in it without them being posed?.. and their considering bringing in models for some of the other shots they have in mind.... umm... am I over my head yet?..

sari

[GilesGuthrie]

OK Sari. Congratulations on winning the confidence of your management! It's an awesome achievement, and you should be considering getting hold of pieces of paper that show it. It's never too soon to start collecting documentary evidence of professional confidence.

Now. Speaking to you as a qualified Project Manager...

You need to plan how you're going to go about this. So, go get some Post-It Notes (or equivalent).

Get a list of the groups of shots your management want. It sounds like this is in progress, which is cool. These will become your Work Packages. Now you want to break down each work package into a list of individual shots, which you will arrange vertically, like a family tree. This is your Product Breakdown Structure.

Say, for example, the management want shots of the accomodation. You would break this down thus:

Accomodation
- Rooms
-- Beds
-- Shower Rooms
- Suites
-- Bedroom
--- Beds
--- Wardrobes
-- Living Space
--- Sofas/Couches
-- Bathroom
--- Bath
--- Sink

etc.

Now, you need to write this all down using a Post-It for each item, because you're going to pick them up and move them about. You'll probably need about 3' x 3' area to do this in.

Once you've got your PBS in place, you should write it down. Now, arrange all the shots into some sort of order in which you'd like to take them. Organise from left to right, in a workflow. This is your Product Flow Diagram. So, in the "Accomodation" example, I would say that it was natural to want to do a type of accomodation in a single session, so they would all go on the same line. Once you've arranged things in a way that you're happy with, you should write this down too, because it will form the shooting part of your workflow.

The PFD will become your Project Plan. You can arrange all the individual lines of flow into "tasks", against which you can attribute an amount of time. You can also order the tasks in a way that suits, both the changing seasons, the client's ordering preference, and your own availability. Write this down too.

If you have access to a computer, you can use the various MS Office tools to diagram this out, although the daddy is (obviously) Microsoft Project, which is not at all difficult to learn. (PM me if you need some help with it).

Of course, by continually writing these things down, you will be able to demonstrate to your management that you're on top of what sounds like quite a nebulous assignment, and you will be able to structure your work around it, and deliver against it. It will give everyone (yes, that includes you) the confidence that you're achieving results and moving things forward.

Oh, and I'm wary of the "equipment as expenses" thing. I think you need to ensure that there is total clarity on ownership.

[saravrose]

OK Sari. Congratulations on winning the confidence of your management! It's an awesome achievement, and you should be considering getting hold of pieces of paper that show it. It's never too soon to start collecting documentary evidence of professional confidence.

Now. Speaking to you as a qualified Project Manager...

You need to plan how you're going to go about this. So, go get some Post-It Notes (or equivalent).

Get a list of the groups of shots your management want. It sounds like this is in progress, which is cool. These will become your Work Packages. Now you want to break down each work package into a list of individual shots, which you will arrange vertically, like a family tree. This is your Product Breakdown Structure.

Say, for example, the management want shots of the accomodation. You would break this down thus:

Accomodation
- Rooms
-- Beds
-- Shower Rooms
- Suites
-- Bedroom
--- Beds
--- Wardrobes
-- Living Space
--- Sofas/Couches
-- Bathroom
--- Bath
--- Sink

etc.

Now, you need to write this all down using a Post-It for each item, because you're going to pick them up and move them about. You'll probably need about 3' x 3' area to do this in.

Once you've got your PBS in place, you should write it down. Now, arrange all the shots into some sort of order in which you'd like to take them. Organise from left to right, in a workflow. This is your Product Flow Diagram. So, in the "Accomodation" example, I would say that it was natural to want to do a type of accomodation in a single session, so they would all go on the same line. Once you've arranged things in a way that you're happy with, you should write this down too, because it will form the shooting part of your workflow.

The PFD will become your Project Plan. You can arrange all the individual lines of flow into "tasks", against which you can attribute an amount of time. You can also order the tasks in a way that suits, both the changing seasons, the client's ordering preference, and your own availability. Write this down too.

If you have access to a computer, you can use the various MS Office tools to diagram this out, although the daddy is (obviously) Microsoft Project, which is not at all difficult to learn. (PM me if you need some help with it).

Of course, by continually writing these things down, you will be able to demonstrate to your management that you're on top of what sounds like quite a nebulous assignment, and you will be able to structure your work around it, and deliver against it. It will give everyone (yes, that includes you) the confidence that you're achieving results and moving things forward.

Oh, and I'm wary of the "equipment as expenses" thing. I think you need to ensure that there is total clarity on ownership.

wow.. fantastic adive thanks soo much.. and yes. She made it clear that because this will more than likely be ongoing for the next several months that if there was extra equipment that I needed to have they would finance it.. as to the organization part of the assignment as soon as I get a better understanding of what they need, and what their vision is then it will be easier to get started.. I also need to have an idea of how many images their wanting of each location what kind of processing they want done.. and what their going to be used for.. for right now I have a very rough draft of what they need with more information to come in the next week or so.. the great part is that every inch of that area is absolutely beautiful I won't have any limited access and can completely choose when to shoot.. also known as I won't be forced into taking their photos at two in the afternoon cause that's what's convenient... there is a contract that's being written up and i'll have a sit down with the guy behind the 'big desk'... Still feeling a little funny. I didn't come up here to work as a photographer.. I took the job as a bartender and hopefully the folks that hired me are going to be okay with this.. Anyway, more information to come with advice needed when I have more information..

sari

[condyk]

Nice plan from Giles ... Microsoft Visio is good for that stuff but post-its and then pen and ink will work for most people ;-) I reckon the Tamron 18-55mm 2.8 might do you for a lot of shots. Fast and decent IQ without breaking the bank. Doing rooms well standing on a chair and shooting down can help. You might need flash or use your tripod. I would hold onto your Canon USM unless you also get to keep the Tamron. Your 70-200mm will come in handy.

[saravrose]

Nice plan from Giles ... Microsoft Visio is good for that stuff but post-its and then pen and ink will work for most people ;-) I reckon the Tamron 18-55mm 2.8 might do you for a lot of shots. Fast and decent IQ without breaking the bank. Doing rooms well standing on a chair and shooting down can help. You might need flash or use your tripod. I would hold onto your Canon USM unless you also get to keep the Tamron. Your 70-200mm will come in handy.

thanks for the advice on the other tamron Dave.. i'm going to be looking into it. But, it definately looks like a good alternative to the kit focal length which I love.. and the price doesn't look like it will break the bank.. The L has become my primary lens.. I thought that it would be too long to use all the time but find myself using it more and more.. and yeah, tripod and speedlight will definatley come into play here. and with that legnth of the other tammy I think my Canon will still have it's uses..

sari

[In2Photos]

Sari. When you say they are paying for any gear you may want to find out if they own the gear. If so, ONLY use it for shooting the things they have you shoot. Otherwise use your own gear. YOu probably know this already but just thought I would point it out just in case.

Congrats and good luck.