10d with flash 550ex?

[gogo]

in couple a situasions when I was using 10d with 550ex
with 60/5.6 400 Iso setiings some picture were hoorible too bright or too dark in same situation.I was reading on this site that best solutions is 125/5,6 when working with flash.when I owned a eos 5 I didnt have any problems like that.Any sugestions?

[toddb]

With my 28-135 lens, I usually bounce the flash upward and use iso 100....I only bump up the iso to 200 or 400 if a) I need to get a smaller apature for depth of field (I sometimes go 400 if I shoot f/8) b) if I feal I'm getting too far away from my subject.

I usually stay in close range to my target though and that way I get pretty consistent lighting. I know that hard to do sometimes.

[scottbergerphoto]

gogo wrote:
in couple a situasions when I was using 10d with 550ex
with 60/5.6 400 Iso setiings some picture were hoorible too bright or too dark in same situation.I was reading on this site that best solutions is 125/5,6 when working with flash.when I owned a eos 5 I didnt have any problems like that.Any sugestions?

It would be helpful to know what you were taking a picture of, how far you were from the subject, the environment you were in, and how the picture was over/under exposed, and the focus point you were using. In ETTL the flash output is determined by a preflash that fires when you fully depress the shutter release, but before the shutter opens. The amount of light reflected back from the subject is read by the camera meter and automatically determines the flash output. The camera over weighs your selected focus point. The camera's f stop limits the flash range. Very dark/light colored subjects, white walls, a large dark room can all fool the camera. If you can, post the bad pictures.
Let me know and I'll be happy to throw you my 2c.
Scott

[robertwgross]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
In ETTL the flash output is determined by a preflash that fires when you fully depress the shutter release, but before the shutter opens.

Scott, I assume that the preflash happens after the shutter release, after the mirror flies, and before the shutter opens. Then of course the main flash happens with the shutter open and the mirror is up. If the preflash happened earlier, then the photographer might see something in the viewfinder, since the mirror would still be down, and I don't believe that to be the case.

---Bob Gross---

[topeju]

As Scott already hinted, the preflash normally occurs after you fully depress the shutter button. One common error (at least for me!) is to use the normal focus-then-recompose method to take the shot, which causes the camera to measure and adjust the flash using not your intended subject but something else (where you turned the camera to). The solution here is to use the FEL function (the * key) to trigger the preflash measurement on your intended subject (or whatever you want to expose for).

[scottbergerphoto]

robertwgross wrote:
scottbergerphoto wrote:
In ETTL the flash output is determined by a preflash that fires when you fully depress the shutter release, but before the shutter opens.

Scott, I assume that the preflash happens after the shutter release, after the mirror flies, and before the shutter opens. Then of course the main flash happens with the shutter open and the mirror is up. If the preflash happened earlier, then the photographer might see something in the viewfinder, since the mirror would still be down, and I don't believe that to be the case.

---Bob Gross---

Bob, if you read my post, you'll see that the only thing I left out was the fact that the mirror flips up. I did't think that was necessary to include to make the point.
You seem to know alot about photography. It's a shame you don't have a clue about how to share that knowledge in a constructive, non-judgemental way. You seem to take pleasure in showing people how stupid they are and how smart you are.
Scott

[robertwgross]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
Bob, if you read my post, you'll see that the only thing I left out was the fact that the mirror flips up. I did't think that was necessary to include to make the point.
You seem to know alot about photography. It's a shame you don't have a clue about how to share that knowledge in a constructive, non-judgemental way. You seem to take pleasure in showing people how stupid they are and how smart you are.
Scott


Scott, obviously I did read your post. Since the time for the mirror flip was less important to some readers, you left out that detail. Since I wanted to make sure that I had it firmly in my head about the details, I simply stated my assumption.

You are entitled to your opinions about my skills, even if they are wrong. I never showed or judged or suggested anything about stupidity here, and I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

---Bob Gross---

[DaveG]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
robertwgross wrote:
scottbergerphoto wrote:
In ETTL the flash output is determined by a preflash that fires when you fully depress the shutter release, but before the shutter opens.

Scott, I assume that the preflash happens after the shutter release, after the mirror flies, and before the shutter opens. Then of course the main flash happens with the shutter open and the mirror is up. If the preflash happened earlier, then the photographer might see something in the viewfinder, since the mirror would still be down, and I don't believe that to be the case.

---Bob Gross---

Bob, if you read my post, you'll see that the only thing I left out was the fact that the mirror flips up. I did't think that was necessary to include to make the point.
You seem to know alot about photography. It's a shame you don't have a clue about how to share that knowledge in a constructive, non-judgemental way. You seem to take pleasure in showing people how stupid they are and how smart you are.
Scott


Actually the preflash DOES fire before the shutter is open - or at least before the mirror is up because I see it though the viewfinder all of the time.

[robertwgross]

DaveG wrote:
Actually the preflash DOES fire before the shutter is open - or at least before the mirror is up because I see it though the viewfinder all of the time.


Hmmm. Interesting. Of course the preflash has to go before the shutter is open, otherwise we would see a ghost on the image.

Most people say that they can see only one flash, but a few say that they can see both the preflash and the main flash. Maybe you have a quicker eye that allows that, or maybe your eye is on a Firewire connection to your brain. I'm not sure how that would be proven, either one way or the other way. As long as your digital camera gets the right meter reading, that is what is important. Whether I actually see the preflash or not, I will just trust to Canon that it happens.

This kind of detail is not in the manual, that's for sure.

---Bob Gross---

[KrisKat]

While I am no expert in EOS flash technology my thinking about the preflash is this. First I see the preflash in the viewfinder when I take a photo. As I was thinking about this I considered the fact that when the FEL is used the flash is metered with the mirror in down position as is normal metering. I would think that the preflash would also fire with the mirror down to duplicate the way the camera is metered with FEL.

Just my 2 cents.

Kristen

[robertwgross]

OK, now let's see if we have a consensus.

1. Shutter button is pushed
2. Mirror is still down, and the preflash fires
3. Mirror is still down, and preflash metering happens
4. Mirror flies up
5. Shutter action begins
6. Main flash fires
7. Shutter action ends

Sometime between steps 3 and 5, the metering turns into a shutter and aperture solution, and those are fed to the shutter mechanism and the electromagnetic diaphram in the lens.

Step 6 is normally close to step 5, unless second curtain sync is the option, and then step 6 is closer to step 7.

Interesting.

---Bob Gross---

[DaveG]

I think the thing to remember is that all of the camera's metering takes place with the
shutter closed. I know that in off-the-film metering cameras, the metering continues after
the shutter is open to allow for flash readings off of the film. This is not the case with
E-TTL - and maybe one of the reasons that E-TTL is SO bad and so inconsistent.

Canon seems to be trying to let the camera pick out the exposure with the focusing
rectangles. My fear is that the camera sees white now and gives one exposure. Then it
sees black and gives another. I just wish that it would calculate distance and base the
exposure on that! "At three meters with ISO 400 and with the aperture at f8 I need to
output to here."

Although Canon has been eating Nikon’s lunch for a decade the Nikon TTL flash system
is 1000% better than Canon’s. How can I use this system for a wedding if I can’t do a
simple table shot at a banquet (The white tablecloths cause about a two stop
underexposure!) What will this do to the bride coming down the aisle?

For a lot of things I'm thinking about going back to my Vivitar 283. I'd set the
shutterspeed and aperture on the camera, with the lenses' aperture matching the flash's.
Then I take a shot and check the histogram. Hmm, 1/3 overexposed. Now I stop down a
third. Now it's a perfect exposure. YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITH THE CANON!!!!
because as soon as you stop down a third it will overpower that new setting by the same
amount!

I don't know what genius at Canon thought up E-TTL but other than with the wireless
TTL it really sucks.

[robertwgross]

DaveG wrote:
YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITH THE CANON!!!!


Do you mean that you can't do it with Canon E-TTL, or that you can't do it with your Canon 10D at all?

---Bob Gross---

[scottbergerphoto]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the lack of TTL is due to the fact that digital cameras use a sensor instead of film and thus there is no "off the film sensor" in the camera body to record the light entering the camera lens and bouncing off the film, to adjust the duration of flash output, as there is in film cameras. The camera meter does not regulate the flash in TTL, the "off the film sensor" does. I don't know how Nikon digital cameras adjust flash.
With regards to the Vivitar example above, you can do this with the Canon 10D. I've done it extensively on my G2. You just can't do it with an EX speedlite. You can do this with ANY flash that has an Auto Mode. I use Nikon and Quantum flashes(on Canon digital cameras) in Auto Mode using a PC cord or Hot Shoe to PC cord adapter. In this mode, the camera only triggers the flash. A thyristor on the flash regulates the flash output based on the light reflected back. You can FEC +/- on the flash. I have read that many photgraphers prefer Auto Mode to TTL or ETTL due to its consistent results.
Scott

[DaveG]

robertwgross wrote:
DaveG wrote:
YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITH THE CANON!!!!


Do you mean that you can't do it with Canon E-TTL, or that you can't do it with your Canon 10D at all?

---Bob Gross---


Well for sure you can't do it with the 10D outside of overriding the exposure control in the flash. With a conventional camera you'd just tug the aperture ring open a tiny bit. With the 10D & 550 you'd have to ask the flash to give more power. It's very time consuming and not nessessarily a fix. You could also fix this by using a manual exposure which means welcome to the 1960's.

The problem is that every exposure with the flash and the 10D is a new one. The flash/camera evaluates each shot. As you change the aperture it evaluates the same wrong exposure, just providing more or less light so that it stays wrong in spite of your camera adjustments. It obviously doesn't WANT to be wrong, and often it isn't. But frequently it IS wrong and there nothing that can easily be done to fix it.

[scottbergerphoto]

DaveG wrote:
robertwgross wrote:
DaveG wrote:
YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITH THE CANON!!!!


Do you mean that you can't do it with Canon E-TTL, or that you can't do it with your Canon 10D at all?

---Bob Gross---


Well for sure you can't do it with the 10D outside of overriding the exposure control in the flash. With a conventional camera you'd just tug the aperture ring open a tiny bit. With the 10D & 550 you'd have to ask the flash to give more power. It's very time consuming and not nessessarily a fix. You could also fix this by using a manual exposure which means welcome to the 1960's.

The problem is that every exposure with the flash and the 10D is a new one. The flash/camera evaluates each shot. As you change the aperture it evaluates the same wrong exposure, just providing more or less light so that it stays wrong in spite of your camera adjustments. It obviously doesn't WANT to be wrong, and often it isn't. But frequently it IS wrong and there nothing that can easily be done to fix it.

You can take consistent flash with the 10D. Just don't use ETTL. See my post above on Flashes with Auto Mode or go manual.
Scott

[jimsloy]

Gogo-

Don't you mean "CANNIBALS don't eat clowns" ??

[DaveG]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
DaveG wrote:
robertwgross wrote:
DaveG wrote:
YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITH THE CANON!!!!


Do you mean that you can't do it with Canon E-TTL, or that you can't do it with your Canon 10D at all?

---Bob Gross---


Well for sure you can't do it with the 10D outside of overriding the exposure control in the flash. With a conventional camera you'd just tug the aperture ring open a tiny bit. With the 10D & 550 you'd have to ask the flash to give more power. It's very time consuming and not nessessarily a fix. You could also fix this by using a manual exposure which means welcome to the 1960's.

The problem is that every exposure with the flash and the 10D is a new one. The flash/camera evaluates each shot. As you change the aperture it evaluates the same wrong exposure, just providing more or less light so that it stays wrong in spite of your camera adjustments. It obviously doesn't WANT to be wrong, and often it isn't. But frequently it IS wrong and there nothing that can easily be done to fix it.

You can take consistent flash with the 10D. Just don't use ETTL. See my post above on Flashes with Auto Mode or go manual.
Scott


There is NO automode with the 10D and the 550EX. And manual is too slow.

[scottbergerphoto]

DaveG wrote:
scottbergerphoto wrote:
DaveG wrote:
robertwgross wrote:
DaveG wrote:
YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITH THE CANON!!!!


Do you mean that you can't do it with Canon E-TTL, or that you can't do it with your Canon 10D at all?

---Bob Gross---


Well for sure you can't do it with the 10D outside of overriding the exposure control in the flash. With a conventional camera you'd just tug the aperture ring open a tiny bit. With the 10D & 550 you'd have to ask the flash to give more power. It's very time consuming and not nessessarily a fix. You could also fix this by using a manual exposure which means welcome to the 1960's.

The problem is that every exposure with the flash and the 10D is a new one. The flash/camera evaluates each shot. As you change the aperture it evaluates the same wrong exposure, just providing more or less light so that it stays wrong in spite of your camera adjustments. It obviously doesn't WANT to be wrong, and often it isn't. But frequently it IS wrong and there nothing that can easily be done to fix it.

You can take consistent flash with the 10D. Just don't use ETTL. See my post above on Flashes with Auto Mode or go manual.
Scott


There is NO automode with the 10D and the 550EX. And manual is too slow.

DaveG,
My prior post clearly states you can't do this with an EX speedlite (420EX, 550EX, etc). There are plenty of other high end speedlites around from Nikon, Quantum, etc., that DO have Auto modes. I use the Quantum Q Flash T2D in Auto mode with the 10D and the G2. It works fine. Not every piece of equipment has to say Canon.
Scott

[excessnoise]

With all the flash talk flying back and forth, I happened across a really great, indepth article on Canon EOS flash system. It is 2 parts
Part 1: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index.html

[jimsloy]

Also, if you look on page 69 of the manual, if you hook your 10D up to Britney Spears...she'll flash you.

[iwatkins]

I have yet to take a picture with the 10D and 550EX that hasn't come out perfectly exposed. Am I doing something wrong ? :)

Seriously, most of my shots have been indoors, family shots with not much to go wrong there.

Cheers

Ian

[DaveG]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
DaveG wrote:
scottbergerphoto wrote:
DaveG wrote:
robertwgross wrote:
DaveG wrote:
YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITH THE CANON!!!!


Do you mean that you can't do it with Canon E-TTL, or that you can't do it with your Canon 10D at all?

---Bob Gross---


Well for sure you can't do it with the 10D outside of overriding the exposure control in the flash. With a conventional camera you'd just tug the aperture ring open a tiny bit. With the 10D & 550 you'd have to ask the flash to give more power. It's very time consuming and not nessessarily a fix. You could also fix this by using a manual exposure which means welcome to the 1960's.

The problem is that every exposure with the flash and the 10D is a new one. The flash/camera evaluates each shot. As you change the aperture it evaluates the same wrong exposure, just providing more or less light so that it stays wrong in spite of your camera adjustments. It obviously doesn't WANT to be wrong, and often it isn't. But frequently it IS wrong and there nothing that can easily be done to fix it.

You can take consistent flash with the 10D. Just don't use ETTL. See my post above on Flashes with Auto Mode or go manual.
Scott


There is NO automode with the 10D and the 550EX. And manual is too slow.

DaveG,
My prior post clearly states you can't do this with an EX speedlite (420EX, 550EX, etc). There are plenty of other high end speedlites around from Nikon, Quantum, etc., that DO have Auto modes. I use the Quantum Q Flash T2D in Auto mode with the 10D and the G2. It works fine. Not every piece of equipment has to say Canon.
Scott


Yes and in mine I said that's why I'm leaning more and more towards using my Vivitar 283.

[robertwgross]

DaveG wrote:
Yes and in mine I said that's why I'm leaning more and more towards using my Vivitar 283.


I've got an older Vivitar 252 around here somewhere. Still works good, if you can find something to hook it up to.

---Bob Gross---

[theoldmoose]

robertwgross wrote:
DaveG wrote:
Yes and in mine I said that's why I'm leaning more and more towards using my Vivitar 283.


I've got an older Vivitar 252 around here somewhere. Still works good, if you can find something to hook it up to.

---Bob Gross---


Hopefully I don't have to remind folks here to check the sync voltage carefully, before using (especially) older flashes. Canon has stated variously that they either don't specify a maximum sync voltage, or that it is 6 volts DC, positive polarity (sync terminal to ground) only. In either case, it is lower than the ISO standard, and some old flashes produce quite a wallop on the sync terminals, or in some cases a high negative voltage.

My understanding is that the recent crop of Canon cameras use a solid-state circuit to close the sync contacts (older cameras used a metal 'whisker' on the shutter), and as such, it is quite sensitive to over-voltage conditions. May not kill it the first (or even the tenth) time, but over time, can weaken the switching circuit and eventually damage it. Or, it can wipe it out the first time, and take some other camera electronics with it, too. Either way, Canon would take a dim view of fixing said camera under warranty.

You can use a decent, high-impedance voltmeter (a digital one should do, they are almost always high-impedance) to check the voltage on your flash. Just be careful and don't get shocked while testing it, in case it's one of those units that produce 250 volts or so.

[gogo]

Thanks for big response for my question.My phototsituations are mostly indoors.I am also brought a lumiquest softbox for speedlite and I pleased because it soften the shadows.and you dont have a big white spot on forehead from sweat.I shot a couple of photos found it better to I determined shutter speed, other stuff leave to 10d to calculate.Also use softbox only for close up because for groups and bigger stuff it no good.

[scottbergerphoto]

excessnoise wrote:
With all the flash talk flying back and forth, I happened across a really great, indepth article on Canon EOS flash system. It is 2 parts
Part 1: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index.html
Actually there are three parts, and yes it is the standard text on Canon flash.
Scott

[robertwgross]

theoldmoose wrote:
Hopefully I don't have to remind folks here to check the sync voltage carefully, before using (especially) older flashes. ...


That is the primary reason why my old Vivitar does not get used on my Canon camera. I think it has a trigger voltage of 170 or so. Not recommended for Canon without extra stuff in the middle.

---Bob Gross---