300D ** GULP **

[James01]

http://www.change.to/improve300d

/emote Straps on flame suit! :)


** DONT SHOOT THE MESSANGER **

[BobbyC]

Won't shoot the messenger but it's about the most ridiculous thing I've seen in a long time. It's all there in the specs to see before you buy it.

I did notice some funny names in the list such as:

IvanaTenDee ForThePriceOfaRebel
GimmeGimmeGimme Gimme
UpgradeMe ForFree
I.B. Cheap
Ivana OneDeeEss Firmware Upgrade
Ivana FreeTenDee
Ivana WhineAlot
Daniella TheWhiner
Canon GiveMeTenDeeForNothing

Good for a laugh though.

[Cordell]

Please excuse my ignorance, but why buy a camera that does not have the features you want. This is like buying a Volkswagon Beetle and complaining that it does not go as fast as a Corvette or does not have the leg room of a Hummer.

I don't understand this whole complaining deal with the 300D. I think it's kind of simple: either buy the 300D because you like the things it can do, or buy a 10D because it can do things you can't do with the 300D. Why on earth would Canon include all the 10D features on the 300D and sell it for 4-500 dollars less? Who cares that they removed features by way of software/firmware. Fact is, it is not the same camera because these features are disabled, and/or not there AND there is a price difference.

Maybe I missed something here. Please help me understand the complaint(s).

By the way, popups are never cool!

[hmhm]

In a free market people vote with their pocketbooks. The problem with the petition is that these people have already voted, and they voted in Canon's favor.

What _would_ make sense would be a petition of people who have _not_ purchased a 300d, but who would agree to do so if Canon made the requested changes.
-harry

[NickC]

Funny how you don't see 10D owners griping for a free upgrade to a 1D or 1Ds. Different kind of buyer.

You don't see me asking Canon for 2 10D's to replace my $3000 D30.

[Belmondo]

I don't see anything wrong with 300D owners wanting these features, nor am I offended by the their circulating petitions, beseeching the Almighty, or doing whatever else they choose to in pursuit of achieving a higher degree of parity with 10D owners. There really is no harm in their trying.

The obvious caveat to them is: Temper your expectations---it isn't likely to happen. Canon has little incentive to develop new features for old cameras that they’ve already sold and pocketed the profit on.

Maybe----just maybe----they might do something like this if a serious competitor comes along and sales of the 300D begin to flag. Then, if the upgrades are backward compatible, they might make them available to existing owners. I wouldn’t hold my breath, however.

Good luck.

Tom

[defordphoto]

Our beloved petitionators. At it again. Good grief. What a sad waste of bandwidth and time. These folks need get out and shoot some photos and quit whining about their cameras.

Yeah sure, I'd love my D60 to magically turn into a 10D and yes, sure I'd like my 10D to magically turn into a 1Ds, but it ain't ever gonna happen no matter how many silly petitions I sign.

What it all comes down to is shame on each one of those names on the list. Shame on them for not doing proper research before spending $1,000. That's a lot of money in almost anyone's book and I am very careful when I make purchases like that.

And lastly, shame on them for not just taking the Digital Rebel (why is everyone calling it the 300D...Isn't that a Euro/Japan model designation?) for what it is.

It's a good camera and has the capability of shooting some awesome stuff. We've seen it here before. It would be nice if these petitionators would start producing some kick-butt photos.

Nope, there's nothing wrong with wanting a better camera. Nothing at all. But the mark of a hardcore photographer is one that works within the limits of the camera he's shooting and STILL produces stunning results.

Get out and shoot.

[robertwgross]

RFMSports wrote:
And lastly, shame on them for not just taking the Rebel (why is everyone calling it the 300D...Isn't that a Euro/Japan model designation?) for what it is.

We ought to call it the Digital Rebel so that it is not confused with the Rebel film camera.

---Bob Gross---

[defordphoto]

robertwgross wrote:
RFMSports wrote:
And lastly, shame on them for not just taking the Rebel (why is everyone calling it the 300D...Isn't that a Euro/Japan model designation?) for what it is.

We ought to call it the Digital Rebel so that it is not confused with the Rebel film camera.

---Bob Gross---


Yeah that. The Drebel. Thanks for the grammar-alert. :)

[ilya]

Hope no one clicked on that Gator download pop-up. That thing is the devils reincarnate - spyware.

[defordphoto]

ilya wrote:
Hope no one clicked on that Gator download pop-up. That thing is the devils reincarnate - spyware.

LOL! Figures it would come with spyware too! Too funny. I run popup-blockers anyway so I never even saw it. :)

[Belmondo]

robertwgross wrote:We ought to call it the Digital Rebel so that it is not confused with the Rebel film camera.

---Bob Gross---


I personally prefer Drebel.
Tom

[newdamage1]

It looks like a lot of 10D owners are upset at even the remote possibility of DRebels getting an upgrade. I wonder why that is? How does this hurt them?

[theoldmoose]

NickC wrote:
Funny how you don't see 10D owners griping for a free upgrade to a 1D or 1Ds. Different kind of buyer.


No, different kind of *hardware*. I don't mind paying the price for hardware upgrades if I thought I could afford them, and there *are* some hardware differences between the 300D and 10D, granted (the most obvious ones being the body materials, and the high integration of the electronics). But, those hardware differences serve to lessen the production costs of the 300D.

The *software* in the 10D does *not* increase it's production costs, only it's NRE. Or, to look at it in the other direction, leaving already written software out of the 300D does *not* decrease it's production costs, only it's 'market positioning.'

It's just that market positioning based on firmware features in a hardware-based product is transparent to clueful consumers, and only make the marketing department look foolish (or greedy, take your pick).

[theoldmoose]

belmondo wrote:
robertwgross wrote:We ought to call it the Digital Rebel so that it is not confused with the Rebel film camera.

---Bob Gross---


I personally prefer Drebel.
Tom

Either one would be fine. I find Digital Rebel to be too boringly long to type... 8)

[GenEOS]

Hey, If ya'll keep it up, Canon will replace the 10D and the Drebel with new models for half the price... Keep up your griping! Me, I'm winging it with a D60 I paid $2350 for and darn proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!

[theoldmoose]

newdamage1 wrote:
It looks like a lot of 10D owners are upset at even the remote possibility of DRebels getting an upgrade. I wonder why that is? How does this hurt them?

Heh. :)

I thought of that at one time, and never got around to twisting that particular knife in the wound... ;)

After all, if you had just spent essentially $600 too much for nearly identical hardware, wouldn't you be a bit miffed?

Now, who's whining? 8)

And whether or not Canon (the almighty) gets around to writing new firmware for their DRebel may soon become moot. There sure are a *lot* of hackers out there interested in reverse-engineering the software in this camera. They may very well provide that which Canon may decline to do.

I think that would be a hoot. "The Digital Rebel, the World's Most Popular Hackable Camera", kind of like when IBM unwittingly invited the whole world in on their PC party, when it was first introduced.

Some folks encourage their creative customers, like TiVO. There has long been an understanding there that as long as folks don't try to destroy TiVO's subscription service model (which is very good, and quite reasonably priced) that they are content to let folks do all kinds of neat hacks on the TiVO hardware/software. The symbiosis has been good all around, and some of the neater hacks have found their way into subsequent software updates or newer models.

Life is good when the marketers don't try to treat their customers as adversaries, as a market segment to 'conquer'.

[theoldmoose]

RFMSports wrote:
ilya wrote:
Hope no one clicked on that Gator download pop-up. That thing is the devils reincarnate - spyware.

LOL! Figures it would come with spyware too! Too funny. I run popup-blockers anyway so I never even saw it. :)

Heh. I do all my web browsing and email with Linux -- kind of built-in insurance against the lastest Wintel virii and other junk that clogs the Internet these days...

[theoldmoose]

GenEOS wrote:
Hey, If ya'll keep it up, Canon will replace the 10D and the Drebel with new models for half the price... Keep up your griping! Me, I'm winging it with a D60 I paid $2350 for and darn proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!

Early adopters are the pioneers -- you know, the ones with arrows in their backs. :)

That's OK. I'm sure that in a few years, the equivalent of the 300D will sell for about $200, the price of an entry-level AF film body, these days, if IIRC.

Then, all us DRebel folks that ran out and plunked down $1000 this fall will feel foolish right along with all the other folks... 8)

In the meantime, I can justify the 'sinking investment' by taking tons of pictures, and not having to buy film and processing for all of that. Even if the price of the DRebel (or its equivalent) falls $600 in the next year, I figure it was worth $50 a month to have it all that time, taking pictures.

I'm sure that pros that sunk far more than that into their equipment can come up with similar reasonable justifications. As a non-Pro, $2350 would be out of my range, but I wouldn't presume to really poke fun at anyone that had justified that kind of money (or even for a 1Ds, for whatever reason.

[Canuck]

theoldmoose wrote:
RFMSports wrote:
ilya wrote:
Hope no one clicked on that Gator download pop-up. That thing is the devils reincarnate - spyware.

LOL! Figures it would come with spyware too! Too funny. I run popup-blockers anyway so I never even saw it. :)

Heh. I do all my web browsing and email with Linux -- kind of built-in insurance against the lastest Wintel virii and other junk that clogs the Internet these days...



My thought is that microsoft is the devil reincarnated and the US gov't is too pansy to put a hurting on bill gates. Such a shame, such wimps. I'd tax the living daylights out of bill gates. He's making a run at taking over the computer arena, and tomorrow the world? Besides, intel and microshaft as I call it have their hands in each others pockets well, you know what I'm getting at. We need to stop microshaft before it gets out of hand, much like a lot of the other problems we have in the US.

Just my 5 pence...

[defordphoto]

belmondo wrote:
robertwgross wrote:We ought to call it the Digital Rebel so that it is not confused with the Rebel film camera.

---Bob Gross---


I personally prefer Drebel.
Tom

What is proper though? Drebel, or DRebel? We've got to get this right. I also never understood the KISS reference when speaking of this Drebel (or DRebel). They still haven't hacked this thing either. I figured they would have been shooting at 30fps by now. Hmmm. Anyway this DRebel/Drebel thing bugs me. Leaving the "r" lower-case does make typing it easier...

[ilya]

Canuck, LOL ~ microshaft.

Wait till they go full bore into digital photography. Have you seen all the DP stuff they already have all over their website, not to mention getting folks like Rob Galbraith to write about Adobe workflow integration into XP for them; or staffing one or two top top-tier pro photographers to shmooze the industry on their behalf. Then think if they decide to buy all or part of Adobe - a mere $10 billion in pocket change for a company that has at any point in time $50 billion in cash on hand. Then we're all shafted.

[defordphoto]

Stop Ilya! That's just too scary a thought.

[Belmondo]

newdamage1 wrote:
It looks like a lot of 10D owners are upset at even the remote possibility of DRebels getting an upgrade. I wonder why that is? How does this hurt them?

I bought my second 10D since the Drebel was introduced. The camera store had one of each on the shelf; I could have bought a Drebel, saved a bundle, and hoped Canon would turn it into a 10D for me, OR I could spend the extra money, buy the 10D, and immediately have the features I originally wanted. I opted for the latter.

I really don't see any 10D owners getting upset at the thoughts of Drebel owners getting an upgrade. What I do see is a general bemusement among 10D, D30, and D60 owners that people who paid $600 less for a Drebel seem to have a sense of entitlement that the lower priced camera should be made the functional equivalent of the higher priced unit for free!

Here are a couple hard facts:
1. The Drebel (sans lens) costs $900. The 10D costs $1500. There are reasons for this.
2. Not everyone wants or needs a 10D. Many people are just as happy to have a Drebel and to save the $600. They are the people the Drebel is targeted for.
3. Some people want (and in a few cases need) the features offered in the 10D. They have to decide whether or not those features are worth an extra $600.
4. Those that absolutely need the 10D's capabilities have no choice but to spend the extra $600 because the Drebel is not the same camera as the 10D. It is only similar.

Maybe Canon will do something for the Drebel owners someday, and maybe they won't. While you wait to see what they decide, remember this old saying:

"There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: you can climb it, or you can sit on an acorn and wait."

You can spend your $1500 now and get a 10D, our you can buy a Drebel for $900 and see how long it takes Canon to turn it into a 10D for you.

Tom

[Red Squirrel]

I can see the point at being a little p'd off with the 300d.
Here are features that have been deliberately disabled by Canon.
However it's obvious that Canon wanted to make a significant distinction between the 10d and 300d to warrant the price difference.
No-one's going to pay that much extra for a camera that has a magnesium body and better viewfinder.

I agree that one shouldn't moan at the 300d's missing features, after all it is less that two-thirds the price!

Me, I'll be getting my 10d just after Christmas, and some L.

ho-ho-ho.

[CoolToolGuy]

So, gee, I missed my chance several years ago - I bought a new VW Beetle (the real one, with the air-cooled engine), and I should have asked for it to be upgraded to become a Porsche 356, since the same guy (Professor Porsche) started from the Beetle to create his car?
Oh, well. Too late now, and besides, I had lots of fun and good times (plus a few rough ones) with it, so its all water under the dam (or is that over the bridge?) ;-)

Have Fun

[newdamage1]

If Canon decides to update the firmware of the DRebels with the features described on the "petition" website. (most) of the D10 owners will feel that their TCO will be diminished because of the model similarities. Correct?

BUT, if Canon provided these updates at a cost (let's say $100) and effectively making the DRebel a $1000 body would the differences (after the propsed update) between the D10 and DRebel still warrant the $500 price difference?

[BrettD]

Just my Opinion, but charging for a firmware upgrade is never going to happen. Someone will get their hands on it, upload it, and then everyone else in the world will get it for free. Canon knows this, so why would they bother?

Also, a simpler camera is easier, quicker, and cheaper to develop and test, it is not just a matter of turning off some features.

Brett D

[James01]

brettd wrote:
Just my Opinion, but charging for a firmware upgrade is never going to happen. Someone will get their hands on it, upload it, and then everyone else in the world will get it for free. Canon knows this, so why would they bother?

Also, a simpler camera is easier, quicker, and cheaper to develop and test, it is not just a matter of turning off some features.

Brett D


Why does Microsoft make windows (or any program)? Its being hacked everyday.

---------------------


On another note:

I understand why all the 10D people are getting upset... I used to own a 10S and it felt good to have the better camera over all the Rebel owners... unfortunately my photos still sucked compared to lots of the people using Rebels :)

Since cars seem to be the topic of comparison if your transmission was not shifting at the correct time would you not want it fixed?

I don’t see how fixing a few problems on the Rebel make it any more like the 10D. The 10D is and always will be a better camera. I'm sure Canon won’t add features to the camera but they gotta do something about the bugs… Firmware = bug fix not added features.

What I see as bugs = AI Servo. I have the 70-200L f/4 and can not use the full time manual focus because the dam camera tries to refocus for me every time I touch the focus ring in any mode on the camera. Why say it’s 100% compatible with the entire EF line when it’s only partially compatible?


Oh by the way... Great line:
"There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: you can climb it, or you can sit on an acorn and wait."

[BobbyC]

To say we are upset is just a joke. Those of you that think because it has something to do with software instead of hardware that somehow Canon is ripping you off, that is just laughable. I would still think the same thing if I didn't have a 10D or D30.

If there is a bug, then yes, I would expect that to be fixed. But features that aren't there, well, they just aren't there and should have been taken into account before the purcahse was made.

[RichardtheSane]

To say we 10D owners get upset is a big joke. I have a 10D and I don't give a rats ass if a firmware comes out that will enable some or all of these features on a 300D. My 10D will still be a 10D, still be the camera I paid for, and the DRebel will still be silver - and that says it all really. :D :D :D
[edit - smiley added...]

[defordphoto]

RichardtheSane wrote:
To say we 10D owners get upset is a big joke. I have a 10D and I don't give a rats ass if a firmware comes out that will enable some or all of these features on a 300D. My 10D will still be a 10D, still be the camera I paid for, and the DRebel will still be silver - and that says it all really.

Beautiful!

[James01]

RFMSports wrote:
RichardtheSane wrote:
To say we 10D owners get upset is a big joke. I have a 10D and I don't give a rats ass if a firmware comes out that will enable some or all of these features on a 300D. My 10D will still be a 10D, still be the camera I paid for, and the DRebel will still be silver - and that says it all really.

Beautiful!


It is beautiful... I for one totaly admint my 300D will never (no matter how many upgrades) be = to the 10D. Some parts of me wish I spent the extra $$$ on the 10D but hind-sight is always 20/20.

To this day I hold my friends 10D with complete envy :D

[ssim]

newdamage1 wrote:
It looks like a lot of 10D owners are upset at even the remote possibility of DRebels getting an upgrade. I wonder why that is? How does this hurt them?

Kelly

You are undoubtedly a 300D owner with a comment like that.

There have been a couple of threads over the past few months that have covered the same basic subject. The 300D owners want to get closer to the 10D for free.

I'm really perplexed as to why the 300D ownership feel that they have been cheated or are owed a firmware upgrade that gives what they are asking. Can one of you explain it to me. When you bought the camera did you not know exactly what you were getting.

I don't beleive that Canon has actually targeted the same audience with their advertising for the 10D and 300D. The latter has specifically been targetted at those that want to move up from the P&S digitals without having to be overly technically astute to understand the controls.

You ask why some of the 10D users are touchy on this subject, I'm surprised you would have to ask. We spent considerably more for our equipment than did the 300D group yet they want Canon to turn it into a 10D, again for free.

If you wanted more than the 300D offered, you should have bought up to the next level.

If you wanted more than the 300D offered but couldn't afford it. Live with it.

I doubt that Canon is going (nor do I think they should) to do anything about it as this is precedent setting which I'm pretty sure they don't want to set this one.

[CoolToolGuy]

A free upgrade will likely never happen. Whether the current 10D owners would get upset or not is an individual issue, but a free upgrade would affect future 10D sales, since you could get the 10D (except for color, controls, etc.) for $899 from that point on.
An upgrade for a fee is interesting, but, as mentioned previously, it could not be a download due to piracy and cloning. It would be best handled by a Canon service center, and I don't see them taking the time for this.
If it happens, I'll get in line to have mine upgraded, but I'm not even close to holding my breath waiting for it.

Have Fun

[agit-prop]

A lot of people seem to be overlooking some probable significant differences between the 10D and the Drebel

1) MTBF ratings for Shutter and mirror mechanisms. I can assure you there is very likely to be a difference between the two models in terms of MTBF of the mechanical assemblies.

2) Sensor (and other component) grade. The Drebel uses a sensor that uses a different manufacturing process than the 10D sensor

From the DPReview 300D page: "The EOS 300D's plastic body is just one of the elements used to reduce the cost of the camera, others include the use of a pentamirror in the viewfinder instead of a pentaprism, a reduction of features (although I feel that much of this is simply firmware crippling) and a shifting of manufacturing from Japan to Taiwan. Additionally Canon say that they have altered the production process of the CMOS sensor to reduce costs."

This tells me that the sensor is likely to have more hot or cold pixels than the 10D sensor, that manufacturing tolerances will be looser (that's why the card count inside the camera has been consolidated) that lower cost (looser tolerance) components will be used at the expense of thermal performance, MTBF, and possibly noise immunity.

3) Mirror lockup- this matters to me for astrophotography. It's also a factor in microphotography.

Anyway, those are some of the factors I took into account when choosing a 10D over a Drebel.

I personally think the Drebel owners should be thankful that they *have* a DSLR for that price. As little as a few years ago, you would pay close to that price for a G1 P&S.

So, as others have pointed out, quit your whining, get out and take some damn pictures.

[Kinger]

Agit-Prop wrote:
A lot of people seem to be overlooking some probable significant differences between the 10D and the Drebel

1) MTBF ratings for Shutter and mirror mechanisms. I can assure you there is very likely to be a difference between the two models in terms of MTBF of the mechanical assemblies.

2) Sensor (and other component) grade. The Drebel uses a sensor that uses a different manufacturing process than the 10D sensor

From the DPReview 300D page: "The EOS 300D's plastic body is just one of the elements used to reduce the cost of the camera, others include the use of a pentamirror in the viewfinder instead of a pentaprism, a reduction of features (although I feel that much of this is simply firmware crippling) and a shifting of manufacturing from Japan to Taiwan. Additionally Canon say that they have altered the production process of the CMOS sensor to reduce costs."

This tells me that the sensor is likely to have more hot or cold pixels than the 10D sensor, that manufacturing tolerances will be looser (that's why the card count inside the camera has been consolidated) that lower cost (looser tolerance) components will be used at the expense of thermal performance, MTBF, and possibly noise immunity.

3) Mirror lockup- this matters to me for astrophotography. It's also a factor in microphotography.

Anyway, those are some of the factors I took into account when choosing a 10D over a Drebel.

I personally think the Drebel owners should be thankful that they *have* a DSLR for that price. As little as a few years ago, you would pay close to that price for a G1 P&S.

So, as others have pointed out, quit your whining, get out and take some damn pictures.

As a new DRebel owner, and new to photography, I have to agree completely with this. I for one think it is rediculous to expect Canon to make upgrades for our camera because it can be done. If you wanted the 10D, then don't be so cheap and get one. As for me, being a beginner, the DRebel will be more then enough camera to last me for years. Plus, I believe someone also stated that a good photographer will take good shots by adapting to the equipment. I love my DRebel, I think it is a great camera for what it is, an entry level DSLR.

[newdamage1]

Ssim - I am a recent DRebel owner, an I am considering taking it back because of a few of the features are not what I was expecting. (I am partly new to photography, some of the jargon was confusing and some I plain ole' didn't understand, the metering was one of them.)

I did a fair amount of research and thought I was being an informed buyer, but now after a week or 2 of shooting I am finding that some of the features would be helpful for what I like to shoot. They are not a BIG deal, but if it was possible to get a small upgrade, I may not take it back and just use it until its hand-me-down time to the wife.

Now take a step back and stand in the 300D owners shoes. If Canon was going to release a firmware update to the 10D and add more features to make it closer to the D1, you and the rest of the 10D owners would be elated and would jump on the opportunity. That is all I am saying, and if there is a remote possibility of an upgrade for my camera, I'm going to help the bandwagon move along and EVERYONE in that situation would do the same.

And Richardthesane, A different color body doesn't make you a better photographer, even a novice knows that. but for some reason, it does seem to give you an overly inflated sense of superioity.

[RichardtheSane]

newdamage1 wrote:
And Richardthesane, A different color body doesn't make you a better photographer, even a novice knows that. but for some reason, it does seem to give you an overly inflated sense of superioity.

Kelly, please read through the forum just a little before posting, you may learn that there are people here that don't take life so seriously - and maybe you should consider that I may have a sense of humour before making such an insulting statement.
If you didn't understand what I meant you should ask before making wild and totally uninformed assumptions. You don't know me, and you clearly havn't spend enough time in this forum to be in a position to make any sort of judgement about me.
So why don't you re-read my post and look at what I said - what I really said, and not what you think I meant.

I point you in the direction of the topics below for a bit of proof that the forum, despite insulting posts from newbies, is a fun place as well as somewhere that you can learn a lot.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19896
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19750
And most important and entertaining, the topic which my humour refers to. The topic that is one of the longest on the forum that I have seen, and the topic where time and time again humour is taken too seriously (I now have an idea how you feel tom)...
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20509&page=0

Should we all just stop havin fun if this is the ill-informed response that we get?

[defordphoto]

Well finally. Some halfway sane posts on this subject from Drebel owners. What a concept.

Simply said: This wanted firmware update is NOT GONNA HAPPEN. It's that simple. And it WILL NOT HAPPEN even for a cost.

And cheers to Agit-Prop for realizing that there is much more different between the 10D and the Drebel than the color and label on the body.

They are similar cameras, but by no means the same with just a firmware cripple.

[agit-prop]

well, they say a picture says 1000 words...


http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0820/canon04.jpg

I can tell you from my own experiences in the Video Processing embedded hardware industry that companies move to a single board design from a multi-board desigh strictly as a cost reduction measure. It costs less because there are fewer connectors, because it's easier to manufacture and assemble, because the SMT machines have an easier time with larger PCB form factors, because the skill level of the assembly workers doesn't have to be as high if they only have one PCB to insert with any level of precision.

I can also tell you that although it's possible to consolidate PCBs and offer a cheaper product, the multi-board product will often remain on the market as a higher end device with tighter tolerences and a wider feature set. Often the single board product will deliberately be assembled with 1% resistors and caps rather than 0.5% (or better) components. The firmware will often be written anew (not crippled) to address the needs of the majority of potential users within the target market segment for the cheaper product, while the more expensive parent product is "all singing, all dancing" and will have capabilities that the cheaper product never will.

I think I read an article that canon targeted production of a very signisicant number of units of the 300D per month (>10000) I you estimate that ~20000 people have bought the 300D and perhaps 1000 of those people are crying out for a more advanced feature set, I'd have to say that Canon hit the mark quite well, and the people who lament over missing features bought the wrong camera.

[ssim]

newdamage1 wrote:

Now take a step back and stand in the 300D owners shoes. If Canon was going to release a firmware update to the 10D and add more features to make it closer to the D1, you and the rest of the 10D owners would be elated and would jump on the opportunity. That is all I am saying, and if there is a remote possibility of an upgrade for my camera, I'm going to help the bandwagon move along and EVERYONE in that situation would do the same.


You see there is the difference. Show me one thread or one petition that has the 10D owners lining up taking aim at Canon for a firmware upgrade to bring it closer to the 10D.

You purchased a camera that is exactly what you got. It is unfortuneate that a number of 300D owners feel that this is due to them (my interpretation). Proper research on their photographic needs and desires before would have negated this debate.

[newdamage1]

Richard - I have read many, many posts here, and specicaly did a search on your userid to read how you posted (to get an idea if you were joking or not) and you do come off crass in a lot of posts and especially in this thread. I have to agree I don't know your online persona yet, and I will try to let go of the things that look degradeing and insutling if you at least put a smilely at the end of your posts when you are being sarcastic. Deal?
As you guys (and gals) get to know me, you will see that I am a "take-no-****" kind of guy. That's not a bad thing, It just pisses me off when people are being genuine, and asking genuine questions and they get some smart allick remark. I dunno, guess im a freedom fighter. =)

Anywho, enough of this crap. I just wanted to say to the rest of you posters this is definatly one of the best sources of info I have found so far for digital photography. ( I love it ) and I look forward to learning all the goodies that you have to offer.

[newdamage1]

Ssim - I agree, 300D owners that think the upgrade is "due" to them are out of their minds. But to use a car analogy, if Ford decided to install a higher output V8 in their Cobras because people complained and made a petition that it wasn't what they expected, you bet your sweet bippy, I would be down there getting that sucker installed even though I wasn't one of the people that complained. (and NO I don't own a Ford.yick.) =)

[Belmondo]

RichardtheSane wrote:I point you in the direction of the topics below for a bit of proof that the forum, despite insulting posts from newbies, is a fun place as well as somewhere that you can learn a lot.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19896
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19750
And most important and entertaining, the topic which my humour refers to. The topic that is one of the longest on the forum that I have seen, and the topic where time and time again humour is taken too seriously (I now have an idea how you feel tom)...
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20509&page=0

Richard (the Sane):
We certainly have had some fun, haven't we?!

This seems an appropriate time to dredge up the picture of the red 10D I did a while back. Maybe tomorrow I'll crop it a little (for the benefit of people with dial-up connections) before I re-post it.

I have noticed that there are people who drift in and out of the forum, and many of them would be hard-pressed to understand some of the exchange that takes place here, especially when they come into the middle of some of the more irreverent dialog. The truth is, I haven't encountered a mean-spirited person here yet except when they feel they're responding to a perceived insult. Then, they can get downright ugly. More often than not, they're reacting to something taken entirely out of context.....maybe even a good-natured ribbing about the color (or lack thereof) of a particular camera.

BTW, that was great research you did, coming up with those old threads. Those are definitely true pearls.

Keep up the good work.

Tom (the Inane)

[RichardtheSane]

Ok kelly, I admit I forgot my smiley on this one. Totally my fault there and I promise not to do it again :D
I am glad you did have a look at my posting history, you would probably have seen that the serious questions I do actually try and help with, but I (and many others) don't see a free firmware from canon as serious topic :D :D
Friends?

Tom, glad you liked the old threads, and I totally agree with you. Let's keep having fun :D Get that picture out! :D

[defordphoto]

Man I love this place. Especially when people bring their sense of humor with them.

Tom: How about changing that red 10D to a D10. Now that would be pretty cool.

[Belmondo]

RFMSports wrote:Tom: How about changing that red 10D to a D10. Now that would be pretty cool.

Why not? It's almost Christmas.


ANNOUNCING THE NEW D10 DIGITAL REBEL DELUXE!

All you people with plain black or silver cameras, prepare to eat your hearts out! In what is perhaps the greatest international design collaboration since the Concorde, the best minds of Great Britain and the U.S. have teamed up to bring us the D10 DIGITAL REBEL Deluxe, the purest testimonial to the unlimited capacity for bad taste among all humankind!

Essentially a feature-crippled 10D wrapped in a red-metallic polycarbonate shell, the D10 DIGITAL REBEL Deluxe becomes the instant “must-have” camera for fashion conscious photographers unwilling to be seen with just a plain black or silver camera. The 10D DIGITAL REBEL Deluxe may be purchased with the BG-RED3 Battery Grip, available in matching or complimentary colors.

http://www.bytephoto.com/photopost/data/500/353D10_Rebel_Deluxe.jpg

[midmadn]

OK,

Where can I get one of those red D10's and how much?

Seriously, I like it. :)

[defordphoto]

Sweet!! Good job Tom!!

[Belmondo]

I'm sure this point has been made before, but in Japan, they sell the 300D/Digital Rebel as the EOS Kiss Digital.

Presumably 'KISS' in this context borrows heavily from the acronym Keep It Simple, Stupid.

What does this tell us about Canon’s attitude towards Rebel purchasers?

Hmmmmmmm.

Does anyone remember Duane Eddy? He was a very popular guitar player back in the 50’s and 60’s, and one of his most famous recordings was a little ditty called ‘Rebel Rouser.’

I feel a little like Duane Eddy right now.

Tom

[defordphoto]

ROFL! Yer gonna get in trouble Tom! :)

[FairyGodmother]

Looks like 501 users/owners need THERAPY not a firmware upgrade.

This has to be the best joke seen in any forum this year.

Why oh why, don't you do your homework before parting with your money?

Mind you, Santa is coming shortly.........you never know!

[Tracy K]

I am a recent 300D owner and since obtaining the camera three weeks ago I can only say my first 750 shots will just be the tip of my iceburg. I bought a 28 - 135 lens and now find myself needing more things to go with the camera. A 10D would be a good start but until I can afford it an upgrade would be OK! I agree with Kelly, anybody with a problem about us 300D Rebel, Whatever;Owners..get over it. Just see them jump at an upgrade for their 10D"s. Oh' silver is OK; it grows on you. I shot a job a couple of days ago using my 300D with its lens and grip and I'm sure to anyone I met who didn't have much to do with SLR photography it looked just fine. They didn't run away crying out ,"It's silver"! Soon I'll have my own black body 10D and then ,I will tell myself, I will not use the mere fact that I have a black body to lord it over others. There is nothing wrong with using professional looking black body cameras and they are usefull for reasuring customers that their investment is in safe hands but I remember my first Nikon was a silver F1 and I didn't have a problem with reassuring my customers with my abilities.
Tracy K.

[imago57]

OK, a lot of issues out there to be addressed.

If the DRebel owners think that they need more features for the same money, than they better start learning how to hack and do it themselves, since they knew what they were buying when they did.

On the other hand, if there are bugs, or issues that prevent the camera from performing properly with dedicated Canon accessories (eg: the 70-200 F4 L lens not being able to manual focussing) then the customers that bought the camera and that lens were either misinformed or plainly frouded and should be somehow compensated. (I haven't studied Canon advertising enouth to know if this is in fact the case)

Now on the issue of the firmware update, and who REALLY deserves it:

People paid up to $2300 for a D60 and $ 3000 for a D30, and they still have to manually rotate each vertical framed photograph. It is clear that Canon had carefully planned the scheme of releases for the D30, D60 and 10D/DRebel to take as much of the market share from its competitor. I have no complains against fighting your competition with whatever weapons (as long as you don't use machine guns), but it would be just plain honesty fron Canon to give an upgrade to the buyers of D60 and D30 to fix the frame position recognition that the 10D has standard for $ 700 $1500 less than the D60 and D30, for example.

How come nobody is complaining about this? I don't understand people who made the decision to spend less money to get less features. But PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE drives me mad!!! I am very happy with my D60 and I will keep rotating those images with BB or TB, but it seriousely P****S me off to realize that Canon had planned all of this, and does not feel the need to make it right.

Anyways, enough complaining, lets go out and take some more pictures.

And Happy Holidays to all of you.

[BobbyC]

Well I thought the 300D petition was about the most goofy thing I ever saw until I saw the above post. You must be joking.

[imago57]

BobbyC wrote:
Well I thought the 300D petition was about the most goofy thing I ever saw until I saw the above post. You must be joking.


I am not joking at all. People paid premium money to buy cameras that were replaced with more advanced models at a lower price. This made their camera non only relatively obsolete, but also pretty much unmarketable. To give those people at least the functions that their camera are missing after they paid twice as much would only be fair.

[Wayne02]

imago57 wrote:
OK, a lot of issues out there to be addressed.

On the other hand, if there are bugs, or issues that prevent the camera from performing properly with dedicated Canon accessories (eg: the 70-200 F4 L lens not being able to manual focussing) then the customers that bought the camera and that lens were either misinformed or plainly frouded and should be somehow compensated.

I have a drebel, and I am purchasing the 70-200F4 lens in February. You can't use manual focus with 70-200F4 on the drebel?????

Wayne

[BobbyC]

imago57 wrote:
I am not joking at all. People paid premium money to buy cameras that were replaced with more advanced models at a lower price. This made their camera non only relatively obsolete, but also pretty much unmarketable. To give those people at least the functions that their camera are missing after they paid twice as much would only be fair.

Then Dell owes me a bunch of upgrades. :o)

I'm sure after you think about it for a while, you'll realize the absurdity of your statement.

[CyberDyneSystems]

It is absurd,. but I have more sympathy for those that paid more for less than I have for those that paid less and got what they paid for. The D60 was only out for a year before the "upgrade" 10D was released at nearly $1,000.00 less. I think I would have been a little pissed if I had shelled out for the D60.. (and beleive me, I almost did,. same with the D30)

Of course it is just a result of the sort of advancement we see in PCs all the time.. I remember paying $300.00 ofr 16MB of EDO RAM way back when... now that would buy me 3 Gigbytes of DDR SDRAM.

Also,. I know in the upcoming years DSLRs will be released that will make the 10D look like a toy,.. and cost less,. and yes I could be bummed... as I imagine D60 owners were... but I probably won't mind much.. I'll just buy the damn thing when it comes out :D

[Belmondo]

Somewhat off subject, I know, but I remember paying almost $3K for a 128K Macintosh....9" monochrome display, 400K floppy drive, no hard drive. Less than a year later, they came out with the 512K.

Times change. Get used to it.

[imago57]

Then Dell owes me a bunch of upgrades. :o)

I'm sure after you think about it for a while, you'll realize the absurdity of your statement.




I think you are comparing apples with oranges. The computer industry has always reduced the price of the "older" model at the time of releasing the "newer" model, which usually comes out at a starting price that is the same that the "older" model was selling at its debut on the market. In the D60/D30 vs. 10D case Canon came up with a camera that has more features for less money, while many retailes still had the D60 on the shelfs...now try and sell that!

Anyway, it seems to me that CDS got much better the sense of what I was expressing here, I am not suggesting to start a petition to Canon for the D60 upgrade ( I am not THAT stupid) and I am glad I got the D60 when I did, because that gave me the opportunity to shoot several hundreds excellent photographs in Brazil last March, that I would have not been able to do if I had been waiting on the fence for the "perfect deal" to come out. I was just trying to underline the absurdity of the DRebel owners in asking Canon to give them an upgrade for a product they KNEW it was inferior to the 10D when they decided to make that purchase.

I am surprised though that you cannot see the difference between the two cases.

[BobbyC]

Well, I doubt the computer would be at the same price, my last dell dropped well over 30% for the exact same features within about 6 months after I bought it. It is virtually the same thing.

imago57 wrote:
it would be just plain honesty fron Canon to give an upgrade to the buyers of D60 and D30 to fix the frame position recognition that the 10D has standard for $ 700 $1500 less than the D60 and D30, for example.

How come nobody is complaining about this?


What's suprising is you don't see just how ridiculous this statement really is.

imago57 wrote:
I am very happy with my D60 and I will keep rotating those images with BB or TB, but it seriousely P****S me off to realize that Canon had planned all of this, and does not feel the need to make it right.


Are you really suggesting that Canon made the D30 and D60 without the rotation feature, knowing that they where going to add it a few years later in a much cheaper camera? Seriously?

[dejal]

yes it does, I have one
Wayne02 wrote:
imago57 wrote:
OK, a lot of issues out there to be addressed.

On the other hand, if there are bugs, or issues that prevent the camera from performing properly with dedicated Canon accessories (eg: the 70-200 F4 L lens not being able to manual focussing) then the customers that bought the camera and that lens were either misinformed or plainly frouded and should be somehow compensated.

I have a drebel, and I am purchasing the 70-200F4 lens in February. You can't use manual focus with 70-200F4 on the drebel?????

Wayne

[imago57]

Well, I doubt the computer would be at the same price, my last dell dropped well over 30% for the exact same features within about 6 months after I bought it. It is virtually the same thing.

Yes, but what you did not see 6 months after you purchased your Dell computer was a new computer with more features than yours at 30% less money than yours. You make me repeat myself: There is a big difference between what the computer industry does routinely and what Canon did with the D30/D60 vs. 10D

What's suprising is you don't see just how ridiculous this statement really is.

Why is it that you cannot make your argument without trying to ridiculize mine? Does it make you feel smarter to say that my argument is ridiculous? Meanwhile you forget to explain WHY my argument is ridiculous.

Are you really suggesting that Canon made the D30 and D60 without the rotation feature, knowing that they where going to add it a few years later in a much cheaper camera? Seriously?

And are you really convinced that Canon aquired the technology to make those camera improvements at a lower cost (and then proceed to the prototiping, testing and production) within the one year that it took to come out with the 10D? You really don't think that those kind of market choices are improvised, do you?

[NickC]

And are you really convinced that Canon aquired the technology to make those camera improvements at a lower cost (and then proceed to the prototiping, testing and production) within the one year that it took to come out with the 10D? You really don't think that those kind of market choices are improvised, do you?


I work at Apple (in hardware development) and while you may know what technology lies ahead, you don't know its cost nor do you even have a working prototype to even try to make a product out of it because most of the time it's just an idea, some of which are half-baked.

While not the same thing, software and firmware features also do not magically pop out of a hat.

Before Apple I worked at Global Village, a modem maker, and saw technology rapidly go from V.32 to V.90 in a matter of a handful of years. (and yeah, people back then screamed for free upgrades even though the technology did not permit)

When developing a product we work with the technology in our hands at the very moment. That's all you can do. There is no time to fuss around trying to worry about planned obsolescence.

Product development cycles now are well under a year for computers, so yes, I believe you can go from D30/60 to 10D in a hurry. I'm not saying that Canon or car makers don't do planned obsolescence, but from my experience and point of view your conspiracist theory is unfounded.

[Canuck]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:

Of course it is just a result of the sort of advancement we see in PCs all the time.. I remember paying $300.00 ofr 16MB of EDO RAM way back when... now that would buy me 3 Gigbytes of DDR SDRAM.

Also,. I know in the upcoming years DSLRs will be released that will make the 10D look like a toy,.. and cost less,. and yes I could be bummed...

CDS,
There is a lot of truth to that. Remember when 386 and 486 computers cost so much you almost had to sell organs and your soul to the devil to afford one? What is that I hear? For about 1/5th of what those cost back then you could easily build an ass kicking system for about that day. Ok, seriously about 3-6 months before something that smokes it comes out. I used to run a pentuim 200MMX htat I got as a graduation present in '97 until I really started play w/ digital photography and went to a system I built myself. I ordered the parts in July, 02 and received them the next month. I have mentioned it, it is an XP2200, 512MB PC333 DDR SDRAM, have upgraded to 2x120 GB HDs in RAID, and other stuff. My next purchase for that system might be a DVD +/- R/RW, DVDRAM. Call it the all in onem but am waiting for prices to drop. I'm also eyeballing a laptop w/ 16 inch screen and enough power to boot, and prices to drop as well. I know that laptops aren't really good for photo processing, but on long flights, and/or if you're plain bored our of your skull, what the hell? Am I out of my tree (mind)? I don't think so. What to do, on those days where it rains all day, bored stupid, and you're on holiday? Sounds like a good time to fire up the laptop and manipulate pics you have taken and remind you of nicer weather in your choice of whatever you have, be it from PS CS, PS 7.0, Elements 2.0, or whatever you have. This is only an idea!

You aren't the only one to be bummed when something comes out that makes the 10D look like a toy. Need I remind you of 35mm film vs digital? Now the question becomes, will you still use the 10D, knowing fully what it can do? I have found my EOS 50E redundant for 6 months now, since the trip to Greece. I might have to give it workout with the high end glass and see if the pics are as different as they were when I used the crap lenses on the 10D. This ought to be interesting! Now to finda a nice day in England in winter! It may be a while, like spring/summer, if it decides to come at all.

This is not reccomended doing while taking alcohol, sedatives, any other drugs or while using heavy machinery as personal injury may result as a result. This is the disclaimer and you have been forewarned!!
:)

[defordphoto]

Well said Nick. That is probably the best post in this goofy thread. Who the heck revived this dinosaur anyway? This thing needs to be buried.

Bad penny. Wart that won't go away. Pick your metaphor.

[agit-prop]

I'm rolling on the floor laughing over some of the "X-Files" style posts in this thread. You would think that Canon was run by evil overlords from some of the theories presented here.

Ideas come at thier own pace. With the cycle of release for these products I would not be the least bit surprised if preliminary specs for the 10D began shortly after the design release of the D60. It probably took 3 to 5 months for the specs to be frozen, and for design to begin in earnest.

Anyway I'll leave this thread to die again (how do you kill zombies? Silver bullets? Garlic?) and sum up with the following:

The truth is out there

[Canuck]

Agit-Prop wrote:

Anyway I'll leave this thread to die again (how do you kill zombies? Silver bullets? Garlic?) and sum up with the following:

The truth is out there

I have heard a steak thru the heart works...now is that a Porterhouse or T-bone type? Talking about Porterhouse is making me want one. Damn they are expensive and damn good! I have a 1.71 lb one I got for $10.20! It may not last much longer! Gotta get it outta the deep freeze! They taste the best underdone but cooked to a safe temperature! It is making my mouth water just thinking about it.

[defordphoto]

Well, let's just keep this freaking thing alive eh? :)

Porterhouse steak. Yummy. Rib-eyes are pretty awesome too.

Actually Agit, the specs for the 10D were probably being developed as the D60 was being finalized or maybe even about the same timeframe.

My wife works for HP, hence the reason I have so many freaking printers (5) hooked up on my network, and she's in R&D. They are developing ideas and protos for stuff 1-3 years down the line and the ideas and specs develop between the teams. Some specs make it on such-and-such model. Some are held over for further development for the next model in the queue.

A conspiracy it is not and actually we, the consumers, help fuel this type of development with our greed for speed and more features now! It's an extremely high-paced, high-pressured work environment and the need for secrecy rivals the military for keeping things under wraps.

Actually on second thought, that's really a bad comparison cause we have too many blabbermouths in our military. Anyway, you get the point. :)

[NickC]

RFMSports wrote:
A conspiracy it is not and actually we, the consumers, help fuel this type of development with our greed for speed and more features now! It's an extremely high-paced, high-pressured work environment and the need for secrecy rivals the military for keeping things under wraps.

Thank you for the additional insight Jim. I know that people have asked me "what next from Apple?" and I more often than not answer "er, I really don't know."

Customer expectations are often way ahead of the ability to develop products (vs. ability to develop technology).

-----

Your dog wants steak. You can afford hamburger. Your dog still sticks with you. Brand loyalty.

[defordphoto]

NickC wrote:
RFMSports wrote:
A conspiracy it is not and actually we, the consumers, help fuel this type of development with our greed for speed and more features now! It's an extremely high-paced, high-pressured work environment and the need for secrecy rivals the military for keeping things under wraps.

Thank you for the additional insight Jim. I know that people have asked me "what next from Apple?" and I more often than not answer "er, I really don't know."

Customer expectations are often way ahead of the ability to develop products (vs. ability to develop technology).

-----

Your dog wants steak. You can afford hamburger. Your dog still sticks with you. Brand loyalty

That's where the "I could tell you but I'd have to shoot you" thing comes into play. My wife says that to me all the time! :)

Cute tag...

[nosquare2003]

Have Canon developed the firmware upgrade?

It seems that we've got to learn how to assemble cameras, like what we do in our PC. And we've to learn how to hack the internal system so as to make our own camera. Will there be lesser complaints? The question is "where to start?" I've seen a nice hack from Tom who created a red D10. And he should be one of the most happiest users.

If I buy a 300D / Drebel now, I will ask for refund by:
- return of the built-in flash to Canon
- disable the USB function and return the cable
- eliminate some JPG's options, especially small (though it's best for continuous shooting)...

One day, it will be possible...

[imago57]

but from my experience and point of view your conspiracist theory is unfounded.

Who mentioned conspiracy teory? I don't appreciate your putting words in my mouth. I was talking plainly about what it is evidently a marketing strategy that you can verify by looking at the development history of the entire EOS camera system (not just the DSLR). I also never inteded to suggest seriously that there should be any kind of refound or upgrade for D30/D60 owners, and I made sure to reiterate this at least in one more post. It seems like some folks out there just can't keep up with an argument without distorting the opponent views and points.

Again, I personally couldn't care less because I am very happy with my D60 and my new set of L lenses and 550 flash, and I have accepted this kind of merchandising from electronic industry (which is not much different from the fashion industry), heck, they need to stay alive so that they can keep providing jobs to us, so that we can keep buying their products! I just don't wanto to bury my head under the sand and pretend that planned obsolescence does not exsist. Now your personal experience and knowledge may bring you to different conclusions, and I will respect that even if I don't agree...but please stop putting words in my mouth and distorting my opinions.

Thanks.

[Belmondo]

imago57 wrote:I am very happy with my D60 and my new set of L lenses and 550 flash, .........


That's what it's all about. Time to move on.

Merry Cristmas, Max.

[NickC]

Who mentioned conspiracy teory? I don't appreciate your putting words in my mouth.

There's a difference between putting words in someone's mouth and describing what I perceive.

I do not believe that my post put any words in your mouth rather than telling what I think of your planned obsolesence theory.

Have a nice holiday, if you can.

[Belmondo]

I, for one, am really happy all this new stuff keeps coming. Whether they know about 6 months before it hits the market, or 6 years, I don't know, and I really don't care.

It sure keeps things interesting, and to a certain extent, the constant lusting for something newer and better helps maintain my interest in the hobby.

Time to give it a rest, boys. Your disagreements are largely in style, not in substance. Go hang your stockings with care.

Merry Christmas to you all.

Tom

[Canuck]

RFMSports wrote:
Well, let's just keep this freaking thing alive eh? :)

Porterhouse steak. Yummy. Rib-eyes are pretty awesome too.

My wife works for HP, hence the reason I have so many freaking printers (5) hooked up on my network, and she's in R&D. They are developing ideas and protos for stuff 1-3 years down the line and the ideas and specs develop between the teams. Some specs make it on such-and-such model. Some are held over for further development for the next model in the queue.

A conspiracy it is not and actually we, the consumers, help fuel this type of development with our greed for speed and more features now! It's an extremely high-paced, high-pressured work environment and the need for secrecy rivals the military for keeping things under wraps.

Actually on second thought, that's really a bad comparison cause we have too many blabbermouths in our military. Anyway, you get the point. :)

RFMSports,
Thanks, I forgot Ribeye and Delmonaco steaks too! MMMmm!

Seriously, I know what you mean about blabbermouths! Need I mention 3 letters, C, N, and N in that order? During these last battles in Afghanistan and again in Iraq, guess who was there blabbing to the world what we were doing? Flipping heck, we might just as well e-mailed our enemies our plans. I was hoping an errant missile or something would hit the media and take out thier ability to broadcast what we were up to. I understand the freedome of the press, but again when you could comprimise a mission/war that's where the bigwhigs shoulda told them to scram! Need I remind you of what happened to Geraldo Rivera in the recent past? If you want to find out what war is like, flipping join the US Armed Forces, if so able to!

[Duke107]

Well I can't believe I actually read as much of this thread as I did. I will only say that I am a mere Canon G2 owner who is as happy as a pig in S#@t with it. I read this thread only because of all the hoopla surounding the Drebel. I have a friend that just bought one and at first glance I love it but there are a few things for me that my G2 offers that I can't give up, remote, and swivel swing around fulltime screen. My point is, that's what is suited to me and we all have differant needs for photography. I know that most people did not drop a 1K US or 1.5k Canadian on a camera without reading, touching and playing with one prior to their purchase. At the time you handed over your Visa you were confident and happy with your decision to purchase. Now we all know that in 18 to 24 months ebay will be full of these and other fantasic cams for the latest and greatest. Between now and then have a blast and get some great shots with the hobby you love.

[SWPhotoImaging]

FYI, Hummers have terrible legroom both front and rear.

[RichardtheSane]

I can't believe some people have got so heated in this debate. Makes the rest of us laugh though, which is good :D
Chill out, grab a beer (Insert alcoholic bevvy of choice here) and have a great christmas :D

[fwhitesides]

This whole issue is really quite simple. In Western civilization, everybody wants something for nothing. That's how people are. This is especially true in America and especially over the last 15-20 years. I like to blame this on The Wal-Mart Effect.

Here's a question for everyone:

If Canon would offer a free firmware upgrade on ALL of their cameras, would any of you turn it down on principle? After all, there is a reason for the difference in prices, and if you really wanted those extra features, you should have paid for it up front.

I'm betting nobody would turn down the upgrade.

[Belmondo]

fwhitesides wrote:
This whole issue is really quite simple. In Western civilization, everybody wants something for nothing. That's how people are. This is especially true in America and especially over the last 15-20 years. I like to blame this on The Wal-Mart Effect.

I don't know about WalMart and their effect on Americans' expectations. I do know about the Ralph Nader brand of consumerism that seems to suggest that people should be protected from their own bad choices, and that has been destructive beyond measure.

The days of caveat emptor (buyer beware) are apparently gone forever. Buyers now feel sufficiently empowered by their presumed 'rights' that they truly believe they can dictate to manufacturers, not with their wallets (i.e. by choosing to buy or not to buy), but with public pressure and litigation after the fact.

I'm somewhat saddened by this whole discussion. The 300D is a wonderful camera....better than anything that has ever been made before at anywhere near the price. But this entire debate will cause many Rebel owners to feel in some way that they were short-changed. In other cases, it might even scare away a potential buyer.

'Nuff said. I wish you all the very best the Holidays have to offer. Hopefully Santa will bring you something wonderful, maybe even good weather for taking pictures.

Tom.

[fwhitesides]

belmondo wrote:
I'm somewhat saddened by this whole discussion. The 300D is a wonderful camera....better than anything that has ever been made before at anywhere near the price. But this entire debate will cause many Rebel owners to feel in some way that they were short-changed. In other cases, it might even scare away a potential buyer.

I own a DRebel, and I don't feel short-changed at all. In my opinion, I got a lot of camera for the relatively low price. I have no major complaints with the functionality of the camera. For me, price was the deciding factor. Anybody who buys this camera and then complains about not getting more features for free is not living in reality.