Off-camera on the cheap?

[Guineh]

I'm thinking about playing with off-camera lighting. I don't really want to spend too much on it right now, if I get the hang of it, I'll look at spending more. :)

Rebel XT, so PC-sync will reqire an adaptor.

What are my options? The flashes should allow manual control, and I'd prefer that any master not actually provide any light straight from the camera, if master/slave method is best. I thought about the strobist setup, but the older flashes seem hard to get (unless I just don't know where to look...), the most expensive part of that setup would be the pocketwizards, but I could theoretically skip those, get a safesync adaptor and PC cords... provided the flash takes PC cord, or there is a reasonably priced adaptor to make the connection.

[FlashZebra]

Here is the cheap approach.

Sunpak 383 a relatively high powered manual flash @ $80.00 (B&H). A used Vivitar 285 would also work.

An inexpensive Chinese radio slave from ebay. Make sure it has either a hotshoe adapter and/or a PC sync adapter. New, the 383 comes with a PC cord.

This should be about $115.00 or so total.

Enjoy! Lon

[kfahn]

I was recently in the same situation as yourself, and I decided to deviate a little from the strobist line of cheap stuff. This is my list.

I went for:

1) 540ez. This is a film camera flash, and is not compatible with the automatic e-ttl metering of our cameras. This doesn't matter a whit if it is off camera anyway. It has great manual control, (1/1 to 1/128 power), stroboscopic mode, full vertical and horizontal tilt, same power as the 550ex, and same accessories as 550ex. I highly reccomend this flash. In fact, 2 of them. I picked each of mine up for about $40 on ebay, just wait a bit and you will get them for cheap.

2) Buy the cheap radio triggers from e-bay. Here is the link for the ones that I got. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&item=180014554164&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1) They work reliably, and at a good distance, and there is no line of site restriction. Plus, they are cheap. Get a second trigger for the second flash if you want. It is about 12 bucks, but you can wait to get it until later when you get a second flash. GadgetInfinity is good to buy from, I have worked with them for a while, and their shipping takes about 10 days, but it is reasonable and well packaged. Also, since these are hot shoe triggers, you don't need any pc connection adapters. (They come wih a pc-cord just in case you want to use them with a flash with that port.)

3) Buy a light stand. Most any will do. Make sure that it folds down, and is not too heavy, as they can get a little overly bulky. This is the one that I got. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120014785242&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1)

4) Buy an adapter to connect the flash to the stand, but make sure that it is one that can hold an umbrella. I bought this one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120014785400&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1) It is nice, because it will fully articulate as you need, and is fairly small.

5) If this isn't enough for you, and it wasn't for me, buy an umbrella. Wescott collapsible umbrellas come highly reccomended, but are near to impossible to find. You have a few choices here. get either the silver, white translucent, or convertible. I would go for the white or the silver, but it doesn't really matter too much which, they both have their uses. This is what I bought. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320015430065&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1)

If you only go for one flash, and the one set of the rest it can all be had for about $110. If that is too much, just get the flash and the wireless trigger, and you will be at about $65. If you chose to do this, just make sure that you get a flash with a stand, because the stand has a tripod mount on the bottom that you can mount directly to a tripod that you already own. Hope this has been a little helpful :) .

[FlashZebra]

1) 540ez. I highly reccomend this flash. In fact, 2 of them. I picked each of mine up for about $40 on ebay, just wait a bit and you will get them for cheap.
I did a search on past Ebay auctions for the Canon 540EZ. None were in that $40.00 range. I looked through at least 30 recent auctions. The least expensive one was a Buy it Now for $50.00. But, almost all were significantly higher than that. You got a great deal on a nice flash unit. Not being in a hurry is typically the key.

I also have been interested in just how nice the Chinese radio sync units with the built in hotshoe are. Evident you purchased one of these and are pleased. Is that accurate?

Now if someone would just do an inexpensive radio sync device with an integrated hotshoe mount and umbrella holder. That would significantly uncomplicate many posts to this forum about using Canon Speedlights with an umbrella.

Enjoy! Lon

[tghaines]

Hi Keith,

I am looking to emulate this kind of set-up at home. Can you post an example of the final image and/or the studio setup?

Thanks,

[Digitalwave]

2) Buy the cheap radio triggers from e-bay. Here is the link for the ones that I got. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&item=180014554164&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1) They work reliably, and at a good distance, and there is no line of site restriction. Plus, they are cheap. Get a second trigger for the second flash if you want. It is about 12 bucks, but you can wait to get it until later when you get a second flash. GadgetInfinity is good to buy from, I have worked with them for a while, and their shipping takes about 10 days, but it is reasonable and well packaged. Also, since these are hot shoe triggers, you don't need any pc connection adapters. (They come wih a pc-cord just in case you want to use them with a flash with that port.)
.


Do you know if those radio units would work ok with my 430EX? It is my understanding that ETTL wouldn't work with the wireless triggers (unless its an ST-E2), but I could use the flash in manual mode, correct? I'd love to mess around with off-shoe flashes, and this seems like a nice cheap alternative to get me started (instead of an ST-E2 or a 550/580EX).

[kfahn]

:eek: I did a search on past Ebay auctions for the Canon 540EZ. None were in that $40.00 range. I looked through at least 30 recent auctions. The least expensive one was a Buy it Now for $50.00. But, almost all were significantly higher than that. You got a great deal on a nice flash unit. Not being in a hurry is typically the key.

I also have been interested in just how nice the Chinese radio sync units with the built in hotshoe are. Evident you purchased one of these and are pleased. Is that accurate?

Now if someone would just do an inexpensive radio sync device with an integrated hotshoe mount and umbrella holder. That would significantly uncomplicate many posts to this forum about using Canon Speedlights with an umbrella.

Enjoy! Lon


You are absolutely correct that not being in a hurry is key. But, on the plus side, even $60 each for these is not bad at all.

I am indeed very pleased with these units as well, there are some issues with them randomly firing when left alone, but this is infrequent, and they fire each time you want them to. To clarify, they fire every time, and then some.

I agree about the integrated umbrella holder uncomplicating things, but it does help with the positioning issues that you run into later with that umbrella.

[kfahn]

Do you know if those radio units would work ok with my 430EX? It is my understanding that ETTL wouldn't work with the wireless triggers (unless its an ST-E2), but I could use the flash in manual mode, correct? I'd love to mess around with off-shoe flashes, and this seems like a nice cheap alternative to get me started (instead of an ST-E2 or a 550/580EX).

It is my understanding that these triggers do not work correctly with the 430ex. I am not sure why, but if you search the strobist blog on flikr.com, there is an ongoing post about people trying to circumvent these issues.

[Lightstream]

I was recently in the same situation as yourself, and I decided to deviate a little from the strobist line of cheap stuff. This is my list.

I went for:

1) 540ez. This is a film camera flash, and is not compatible with the automatic e-ttl metering of our cameras. This doesn't matter a whit if it is off camera anyway. It has great manual control, (1/1 to 1/128 power), stroboscopic mode, full vertical and horizontal tilt, same power as the 550ex, and same accessories as 550ex. I highly reccomend this flash. In fact, 2 of them. I picked each of mine up for about $40 on ebay, just wait a bit and you will get them for cheap.

2) Buy the cheap radio triggers from e-bay. Here is the link for the ones that I got. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&item=180014554164&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1) They work reliably, and at a good distance, and there is no line of site restriction. Plus, they are cheap. Get a second trigger for the second flash if you want. It is about 12 bucks, but you can wait to get it until later when you get a second flash. GadgetInfinity is good to buy from, I have worked with them for a while, and their shipping takes about 10 days, but it is reasonable and well packaged. Also, since these are hot shoe triggers, you don't need any pc connection adapters. (They come wih a pc-cord just in case you want to use them with a flash with that port.)

3) Buy a light stand. Most any will do. Make sure that it folds down, and is not too heavy, as they can get a little overly bulky. This is the one that I got. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120014785242&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1)

4) Buy an adapter to connect the flash to the stand, but make sure that it is one that can hold an umbrella. I bought this one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120014785400&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1) It is nice, because it will fully articulate as you need, and is fairly small.

5) If this isn't enough for you, and it wasn't for me, buy an umbrella. Wescott collapsible umbrellas come highly reccomended, but are near to impossible to find. You have a few choices here. get either the silver, white translucent, or convertible. I would go for the white or the silver, but it doesn't really matter too much which, they both have their uses. This is what I bought. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320015430065&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1)

If you only go for one flash, and the one set of the rest it can all be had for about $110. If that is too much, just get the flash and the wireless trigger, and you will be at about $65. If you chose to do this, just make sure that you get a flash with a stand, because the stand has a tripod mount on the bottom that you can mount directly to a tripod that you already own. Hope this has been a little helpful :) .

Absolutely brilliant! Thank you sir!!

I've been looking to put together this kind of setup and you've done ALL my research for me!

Initially I was thinking, ST-E2, but there is a line of sight restriction, and the ST-E2 is expensive. Was hoping to use the radio triggers with my 430EX.. oh well, may end up buying the ST-E2 anyway (and retain full E-TTL2.. mmmmmmmm :D (I'm lazy!))

Thanks for the link to the umbrellas and holder, B&H wants $30 to ship it over to me (international)..... OW! (ebay's a bit better at times)

[kfahn]

I can't really take credit for this, the whole basis came from the Lighting 101 setup over at http://www.strobist.blogspot.com . I really reccomend going over there if you haven't yet, it is full of great information! It started my lighting addiction!

[Digitalwave]

It is my understanding that these triggers do not work correctly with the 430ex. I am not sure why, but if you search the strobist blog on flikr.com, there is an ongoing post about people trying to circumvent these issues.

:(

[Lightstream]

kfahn: Yup.. I have been reading Strobist, but I like your adaptation and your 'where to buy' list.

I wish there were some brackets on ebay with a 1/4" universal tripod thread though, all of those I've seen are 5/8. I'm a cheapskate who is willing to reuse his under-used tripods as lightstands... I'll MAKE 'em do ;)

[kfahn]

:(

from what I have heard, some people have made them work, just not easily. Look into it, I think that it can be done. Just not directly.

[Curtis N]

I went for: 1) 540ez. This is a film camera flash, and is not compatible with the automatic e-ttl metering of our cameras. This doesn't matter a whit if it is off camera anyway. It has great manual control, (1/1 to 1/128 power), stroboscopic mode, full vertical and horizontal tilt, same power as the 550ex, and same accessories as 550ex. I highly reccomend this flash. Here's my question regarding the whole "studio in a backpack" concept ala strobist:

If you're going to buy extra flash units specifically for off-camera use, wouldn't an auto-thyristor flash be a better choice? Wouldn't this eliminate, or at least minimize, the trial-and-error process of using flash this way? Couldn't you bounce them off the ceiling or shoot them into an umbrella (swiveled so the sensor is pointed toward your subject) and get metered flash output, whether you're using optical or radio slave triggers?

Certainly it's nice to have adjustable manual capability too, but it seems like auto-thyristor units would be just the ticket for this sort of thing, and there were so many of these things made over the years by various manufacturers that you could find them pretty reasonable on ebay, garage sales, camera shops or wherever.

[Lightstream]

from what I have heard, some people have made them work, just not easily. Look into it, I think that it can be done. Just not directly.

Think this quote from one of the posters sums it up... :(

"Sure, the eBay radio slaves are "cheap" but after I add up all the time I spent trying to get them to work with my 430EX... I have to wonder if they were really a "good value"."

Curtis: Sounds interesting - how does the metering work? I've read up on auto-thyristor flashes but still can't quite get how they work. The flash cuts off after the thyristor 'sees' enough light - but how does it know how much light I want? Forgive a clueless n00b who comes from the world of point-and-drool ETTL2......

[kfahn]

I looked briefly into those other units that you mention, but I never really got into them. The size and refresh time were the main turn-offs for me. I also like the full manual capabilities to control the ratios of the multiple flashes, and it seems to work well for me.

On the other hand, those flashes may work well, I am just not the most qualified to speak about them as I have never had any experience with the auto-thyristor flashes.

[Curtis N]

I've read up on auto-thyristor flashes but still can't quite get how they work. The flash cuts off after the thyristor 'sees' enough light - but how does it know how much light I want?You tell the flash how much you want with a lever or dial on the flash, and they generally have a sort of slide rule to help. Most of the consumer models only had a few settings. For instance I have a Canon 177A that you can set at f/5.6-ISO 100 (which also works for f/8-ISO 200, f/11-ISO 400 - you get the idea) or the other auto setting is f/2.8-ISO 100. Obviously is has more range if you set it at f/2.8. Then you set your camera aperture and ISO accordingly.

If you want the equivalent of FEC, you just lie to the flash unit. I know a wedding photog you shoots with Nikon Digital and a Metz auto-thyristor unit. He sets the flash at f/8 and the camera at f/11 to deliberately underexpose. This way he avoids blowing out the wedding dress and can adjust his RAW file as needed.

[kfahn]

I suppose that it all depends on what type of application you are looking at. In a wedding type situation I think that a full manual flash may not be fast enough to use and adapt with the changing locations fast enough, but I tend to be in situations where I can take as many trials as I need before getting the right one. A bride would have my head way before I was done!

[FlashZebra]

Here's my question regarding the whole "studio in a backpack" concept ala strobist:

If you're going to buy extra flash units specifically for off-camera use, wouldn't an auto-thyristor flash be a better choice?
If you had only one flash you might be ok. But, more than one flash unit in "auto thyristor" mode would likely be a nightmare. Each flash would likely read at least some part of the other flashes output, but also likely could not react in a manner to allow for that output.

But if this is indeed a "studio in a small bag" you would want more than one flash.

Even with one flash you would need to place the sensor near the camera (some auto flashes like the Vivitar 283 had an inexpensive remote cord for the sensor), or make allowances for the sensor placement off camera (and this would likely negate the automation you are seeking). In other words it is likely manual flash would be just as easy.

Flash units with only "auto thyristor" mode could be used in a manual manner. If you blind the sensor the flash would just give you everything it had on every exposure. So, it could be used as a full power only manual flash even if the flash did not specifically have any manual mode setting.

Enjoy! Lon

[FlashZebra]

kfahn: Yup.. I have been reading Strobist, but I like your adaptation and your 'where to buy' list.

I wish there were some brackets on ebay with a 1/4" universal tripod thread though, all of those I've seen are 5/8. I'm a cheapskate who is willing to reuse his under-used tripods as lightstands... I'll MAKE 'em do ;)
Find some 5/8 inch metal stock (aluminum, brass, steel) and cut it to size. Then drill and tap a 1/4 -20 hole in one end. This is not a big project. Judicious use of a hacksaw, the right sized drill bit (a # 7, a 13/64 might also work), and a 1/4 -20 tap.

You could then screw these onto your tripod and use those 5/8 inch adapters you have seen.

Enjoy! Lon

[Lightstream]

Find some 5/8 inch metal stock (aluminum, brass, steel) and cut it to size. Then drill and tap a 1/4 -20 hole in one end. This is not a big project. Judicious use of a hacksaw, the right sized drill bit (a # 7, a 13/64 might also work), and a 1/4 -20 tap.

You could then screw these onto your tripod and use those 5/8 inch adapters you have seen.

Enjoy! Lon
Thanks for the tip :)

Here is where it gets embarassing. I must admit that the extent of tools that I currently own (that's accessible to me and not on the Other End of the World where I left most of the stuff) is a Leatherman Charge Ti multitool.. oh and I have their P4 as well.... :oops::oops::oops::oops:



Curtis, thanks for the explanation about the thyristor. So that was how the world went round before digital... :)

[kfahn]

Curtis, thanks for the explanation about the thyristor. So that was how the world went round before digital... :)

"The world before digital? You mean when there were dinosaurs and stuff?" (done in my best 4 year old voice)

[Lightstream]

Heheheh yeah ;)

I've been doing a little shopping. The ebay place is still the best for umbrellas. B&H wants $26 shipping on a $14 flash bracket (I'm overseas)

Then I had a little bit of inspiration while browsing B&H - I saw cable ties.

That does it, I'm going to cable tie it to my ballhead!

[FlashZebra]

That does it, I'm going to cable tie it to my ballhead!
Their is a nasty rumor afloat that duct tape is the "handyman’s secret weapon". But, these rumors are baseless.

The real "handyman’s secret weapon" are cable ties, with hot melt glue and spray on photo mount (not necessarily used for photos) tied for "second most handy secret weapon".

Enjoy! Lon