What Lens Do I Choose???

[ilya]

Just kidding.

I'm trying to break down the family spending authorization protocol to get a 70-200 IS. For a split second, I thought about getting the 100-400 IS instead. Folks are saying that even with a 2x TC the 70-200 outperforms the 100-400. Luminous has a side by side that says pretty much the same.

So I'm set to get the 70-200 IS.

Could use some help on the art of persuasion.

Ilya

[Canuck]

ilya wrote:
Just kidding.

I'm trying to break down the family spending authorization protocol to get a 70-200 IS. For a split second, I thought about getting the 100-400 IS instead. Folks are saying that even with a 2x TC the 70-200 outperforms the 100-400. Luminous has a side by side that says pretty much the same.

So I'm set to get the 70-200 IS.

Could use some help on the art of persuasion.

Ilya

I'm not kidding...

Big question: What is the 100-400 in terms of Fstop and the 70-200 is F2.8. What does that F2.8 lens become with the 2x (F5.6?) extender and then you have a 70-140 w/ extender @F2.8, and then you have the 140-400 @ F5.6. Is that too slow for what you will be doing? Just some thoughts to consider...

[ilya]

Canuck, if you're serious to know my in-depth reasoning -

The 100-400mm lens is an f/5.6 when used at 400mm, and the 70-200mm lens, though an f/2.8, becomes an f/5.6 when used with a 2X extender.

Wide open, at f/5.6, the 100-400mm lens is a bit sharper than the 70-200mm and 2X combination.

However, at f11, closed down two stops, the lenses are essentially equal.

However, as you know, a 2x teleconverter is a light-robbing quality-sucking evil; so its almost like saying lets test the 70-200 with one hand tied behind its back. Without it, the 70-200 is unequivocably superior in its range.

For my needs, the 70-200 range is in the sweetspot; and when I want to go long, I'll be very happy to know that the TC gets me the 100-400 as a bonus for about $250 (for a good canon TC). If the reverse was true ~ 100-400 outperforms the 70-200 on its home turf; then I'd get that.

That's my thinking. Let me know if you need more.

[Canuck]

Ilya:
I was serious this time.
I know, this is a rare almost one-off!
Cost: lens alone:
Canon: $1400 (IS); Sigma $700, +TC (Source: B&H)
My next question becomes with range would you be most likely to use said lens at 70-200 and them being neck and neck at F11, why not fo for the Sigma? It is 1/2 price for the lens and then the TC.
How often do you plan to shoot say 200-400mm and wide open at F5.6? I'm leaning toward the Sigma more and more. I know Canon L glass looks cool, but why go for it when you can go cheaper and not notice the difference? The first side of this coin is that I realise that TCs are light robbers, but you can to some extent overcome this if you will be shooting in broad daylight. (Sidebar: I got the Sigma 120-300 F2.8 for astrophotography and airshows. Also, Canon doensn't make a lens out to 300 F2.8 zoom. While we're on the subject, a 2x TC would likely do much better for me than the Sigma 50-500mm. Now I'd have a 240--600 F5.6 (w/ TC, or 120-300 w/o) vs a 50-500 F4.0-6.3) Now then the end of the day, how much would you be saving and then weigh it from that view. If you can swing for the L glass, you probably should go that route. You really can't loose w/ L glass! The Sigma lens, on the other side of the coin is much cheaper. I have an idea, flip the coin I've been talking about. Have you looked at reviews for both lenses? There are numeraous sites for that. That might be a really good idea, just for grins. I have never shot with that lens, but I have found someone who knows about abut this kinda thing away from the actual purchase often gives the best advice.

Given this, w/o seeing reviews, it seems to me like the edge goes to Sigma given what you told me.

Just my thoughts...I'm calling it a night, it's 0415 here in England and am going horizontal.

[ilya]

Image Stabilizer
Superior Optics
Its White

[KennyG]

Canuck wrote:
I know Canon L glass looks cool, but why go for it when you can go cheaper and not notice the difference?

I beg to differ as someone who has both. The Canon is much better for quality - edge sharpness, CA and contrast to mention but three. You don't have to look very hard to see the differences.

If the cost saving balances out the loss of quality, then fine, but if what you are photographing is important enough to you to give it the best optics then the Canon wins. Not to mention other niceties like IS.

[Belmondo]

ilya wrote:
I'm trying to break down the family spending authorization protocol to get a 70-200 IS.

Could use some help on the art of persuasion.

Ilya

Ilya:
I found the answer several years ago, and it's worked like a charm ever since.

Very simply, the answer is: Louis Vuitton purses.

They are hideously expensive and grotesque looking, but most women love them. Just do a Google search for Louis Vuitton + Murakami, and be prepared for a shock (and maybe a good laugh).

A couple months ago I bought my wife a limited edition LV Murakami purse----impossible to find here in the U.S., but readily available on eBay. I think we paid around $1800 for it, but since then, I've managed to score the 70-200 f/2.8L IS, the 24-70 f/2.8L, and a second 10D body. It's difficult looking at that ugly, ugly purse, but consider what I've accomplished.

Sometimes you have to take a step backwards in order to take two steps forward.

I hope this is helpful. Generally I am reluctant to give away all my secrets----if too many people get wind of this little trick, demand for those nauseating purses will skyrocket. Not only will that run up the prices, but it might create a visual blight on our planet that could cease procreation and ultimately lead to eradication of our species. On the other hand, that still might not be too high a price to pay for really good optics.

Anyway, Ilya, that's what works in this house. I wish you luck.

Tom

[Belmondo]

BTW, she's gotten more compliments and admiring nods because of that stupid purse than I've ever gotten with any of my lenses. Of course, I don't walk around the mall with my camera dangling casually by my side.

Could be the difference, I guess.

(I don't really care, either.)

[BearSummer]

Hi Belmond,

I have found that Bridge leather handbags/weekend bags etc work quite well, the bonus is that they are nice Italian leather and dont make you want to stab yourself in both eyes with the nearest sharp object. Louis Vuitton yeuch, ok I'm a philistine but please.... Limited edition, can you say thank god. Anyway back to the plot.... you could also try doing what I did which was to get the wife interested in photography, so long as she buys into the same lens family as you it's a good thing. Downsides are that you get to carry the gear and she gets to use it, and somehow you end up being the photo assistant, but she does egg you on when you are drooling in the photo shop.

Best regards

BearSummer

[ilya]

(Tom - she already has one or two of each LV and the Gucci; I'm not sure this makes for leverage around here, but I thank you kindly for revealing trade secrets. From a cashflow perspective though, its funny how two wrongs somehow make a right!!)

Having said that, I need EMERGENCY COUNSEL now

Its become an intense negotiation. The draft Memo of Understanding is as follows:

In exchange for being allowed to purchase the aforementioned lens, the Purchaser heretofore agrees, without reservation and in sheer desperation to the following:

1. For a period of no shorter then 2 (two) years not to purchase, acquire, barter if a cash component is involved, beg or steal any SLR camera body whether digital or film, canon or nikon or any other. Exclusions are replacements in case of fire, theft, or any act of god.

2. For a period of no shorter then 2 (two) years, the Pathetic Purchaser shall not acquire, barter, beg or steal or cause any of the Purchaser's agents to do likewise, any other LENS aside from those currently in possession. Exclusions are as above.

The Authorizer also is pressing hard on installing additional limits on ancillary equipment. Given that I've just agreed (in principle) to give up any more lenses and camera bodies for 2 long years, I'm not having any other restrictions. Its a bit of a stalemate.

I wonder whether my concessions too generous? Current lenses: 17-40L, 28-135 IS, 75-300 IS, 50 1.8. I figure if I get the 70-200 2.8IS I won't need any other lens, especially that TCs aren't in the spirit of this agreement considered a lens. I don't think I'll need an upgrade from the 10D for next two years. (I also think 2 years is a long time, and stuff happens... :) )

Anyway, help.

Ilya

[Ballen Photo]

ilya wrote:
(Tom - she already has one or two of each LV and the Gucci; I'm not sure this makes for leverage around here, but I thank you kindly for revealing trade secrets. From a cashflow perspective though, its funny how two wrongs somehow make a right!!)

Having said that, I need EMERGENCY COUNSEL now

Its become an intense negotiation. The draft Memo of Understanding is as follows:

In exchange for being allowed to purchase the aforementioned lens, the Purchaser heretofore agrees, without reservation and in sheer desperation to the following:

1. For a period of no shorter then 2 (two) years not to purchase, acquire, barter if a cash component is involved, beg or steal any SLR camera body whether digital or film, canon or nikon or any other. Exclusions are replacements in case of fire, theft, or any act of god.

2. For a period of no shorter then 2 (two) years, the Pathetic Purchaser shall not acquire, barter, beg or steal or cause any of the Purchaser's agents to do likewise, any other LENS aside from those currently in possession. Exclusions are as above.

The Authorizer also is pressing hard on installing additional limits on ancillary equipment. Given that I've just agreed (in principle) to give up any more lenses and camera bodies for 2 long years, I'm not having any other restrictions. Its a bit of a stalemate.

I wonder whether my concessions too generous? Current lenses: 17-40L, 28-135 IS, 75-300 IS, 50 1.8. I figure if I get the 70-200 2.8IS I won't need any other lens, especially that TCs aren't in the spirit of this agreement considered a lens. I don't think I'll need an upgrade from the 10D for next two years. (I also think 2 years is a long time, and stuff happens... :) )

Anyway, help.

Ilya



Ilya, Sorry, but you inadvertantly made a great argument for staying single. :)
BTW, I'd go for the "L" glass.
.........Bruce

[ilya]

Update:

Somehow I've managed to reduce the term of the agreement to one year. So no camera, no other lens for one year.

In exchange for going from 2 years to 1 year, there is now a clause that miscellaneous, non-camera non-lens purchases will require a match equal to 50% of the value of the purchase for our son's college fund.

I'm thinking this is now a great deal - a win-win. One year goes by quick, L-glass is forever.

Take it?

[defordphoto]

Go for it. Your lens setup will be pretty much complete anyway except for long stuff. And you say that the TC's aren't technically considered a lens in this contract. You have a collection anyone would envy and yes, one year does go by fast. Not to mention that JUST being restricted to no camera bodies and lenses leaves a wide open whole in the market for everything else Canon.

You could do that one year standing on your head.

[ilya]

ITS DONE!!

RFMSports wrote:
Go for it. Your lens setup will be pretty much complete anyway except for long stuff. And you say that the TC's aren't technically considered a lens in this contract. You have a collection anyone would envy and yes, one year does go by fast. Not to mention that JUST being restricted to no camera bodies and lenses leaves a wide open whole in the market for everything else Canon.

You could do that one year standing on your head.

Agreed, its a great deal.

Bruce - I wouldn't have it any other way :)


If anyone wants to retain me to consult on their own L-Negotiations, I'm sure we could work something out. :D

[agit-prop]

I think you are missing out on an opportunity here... The likelyhood of needing to upgrade the body is slim (IMO). You should throw that into the mix as a bargaining chip...

"Honey, I'd like to make a proposal. We extend the one year moratorium on the camera body to 2 years in consideration for a $250 discresionary budget per quarter (with the 50% college fund matching) that may be spent on sundry items"

[defordphoto]

Agit-Prop wrote:
I think you are missing out on an opportunity here... The likelyhood of needing to upgrade the body is slim (IMO). You should throw that into the mix as a bargaining chip...

"Honey, I'd like to make a proposal. We extend the one year moratorium on the camera body to 2 years in consideration for a $250 discresionary budget per quarter (with the 50% college fund matching) that may be spent on sundry items"

Ahhh, but Ilya is a very smart negotiator and already has that covered. You need to re-read the posts. The agreement calls for a ban on camera bodies or lenses. That doesn't cover flashes, filters, tripods, CF cards, bags, etc, etc, etc, etc...

[Belmondo]

......then all he has to do is amass a large quantity of miscellaneous items, return them for a store credit, and snag a new body or lens!!! Mom will never know.

I like this. This is the way I used to think in high school!!

Tom

[Sketcher]

ilya,

You've already done a fabulous job negotiating your current position (and I've quite enjoyed the read!) so my input is little more than an aside.

My wife and I evenly split our 'dispensable' income (if there really is such a thing) so neither of us has to answer to the other for what we do with our portion. The only down side is that it takes a bit longer at times to save the amount of money that either of us wants to spend. But, that's where the negotiating still comes in and some fun can be had at that!

I'll keep your post saved for my future negotiations. I typically work within my set boundaries allowing my better half to initiate deals (keeps me in the pilot seat for when the afterburners need to be kicked in) but it's good to be well counseled and prepared! :)

belmondo wrote:
......then all he has to do is amass a large quantity of miscellaneous items, return them for a store credit, and snag a new body or lens!!! Mom will never know.

I like this. This is the way I used to think in high school!!

Tom
Tom, my wife must be reading from that same play book! LOL

[ilya]

And here's the grant recipient now...

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=1237746&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

[Belmondo]

It looks like the little guy already has designs on your camera. This could be a negotiating ploy for the future.

What a handsome lad! (the young one)

Tom

[ilya]

belmondo wrote:
It looks like the little guy already has designs on your camera. This could be a negotiating ploy for the future.

What a handsome lad! (the young one)

Tom

Thank you Tom. He very fortunately has inherited his mother's good looks.

I fully intend to exploit, er encourage the little one to pick up photography which surely is worth a couple of upgrades for me in the future. :)

[defordphoto]

Oh man! I LOVE that shot Ilya!! Wec an only imagine what photography will be like for him. They'll probably be into photo-holography by then.

[ilya]

RFMSports wrote:
Oh man! I LOVE that shot Ilya!! Wec an only imagine what photography will be like for him. They'll probably be into photo-holography by then.

Thanks! Holo-what? That's not in the contract. //Must negotiate amendment//

[defordphoto]

ilya wrote:
RFMSports wrote:
Oh man! I LOVE that shot Ilya!! Wec an only imagine what photography will be like for him. They'll probably be into photo-holography by then.

Thanks! Holo-what? That's not in the contract. //Must negotiate amendment//


ROLMAO! That ain't gonna happen within your one-year contracts lifespan. Though a special amendment might be in order if Canon surprises the world in February.

[Thomas]

ilya,
Buy that lens!
I bought the 70-200/2.8L IS after about a year of hesitations, "IS not IS? "
But the IS version!. It allows you to shoot incredible pictures in low light conditions, something you never thought was possible. I also got a 1.4x extender with it, so I do not have to negotiate on a family forum again. It all came as a package. An untrained eye will never find out that you have two lenses mounted on your camera. With this lens my D60 focuses very well and I abandoned temptations to upgrade to a 10D. Consider this as a discount on the lens.
Bin der dun dat, and I do not regret.

Thomas

[ilya]

Compulsion, obsession, infatuation.

Dec 8, 2003 9:44 P.M. SECAUCUS, NJ, US ARRIVAL SCAN
9:24 P.M. NEW YORK, NY, US DEPARTURE SCAN
5:02 P.M. NEW YORK, NY, US ORIGIN SCAN

Many of you know what that is.


//Apocalypse Now theme ~ The Doors ~ The End playing in the background...//

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need...of some...stranger's hand
In a...desperate land //


Not sure why its apropo, it just is.

For those few out there who do not understand, this is a UPS tracking screen.

Almost there. One more day. The end.

[Belmondo]

ilya wrote:Almost there. One more day. The end.



No sir, this is just the beginning. Keep that credit card at the ready.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Ahhh,.. I love a happy ending! :D

And with my Favorite Doors song rolling with the credits!

:D :D

//jealousy factor starts to kick in!

[defordphoto]

Ilya: Just be sure the wife doesn't adopt the phrase: "I love the smell of napalm in the morning..." :)

[ilya]

RFMSports wrote:
Ilya: Just be sure the wife doesn't adopt the phrase: "I love the smell of napalm in the morning..." :)

Heh, heh. Horror, the horror.

(The smell, you know that gasoline smell. Smells likevictory.)

One of my favs - If I say its safe to surf this beach Captain, then its safe to surf this beach. I mean I'm not afraid to surf this place, I'll surf this whole f***g place!

Remember the Photojournalist - Hey, man, you don't talk to the Colonel. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a poet-warrior in the classic sense.

And so on. Great movie.

[defordphoto]

Ahh yes. I love that movie! Classic!!

[HeatherJL]

I thoroughly enjoyed this post, thank for the entertainment. :)

Your son is ADORABLE... I have a one year old little girl, so I have a thing for babies.

Anyway, it's kinda funny being on the opposite side of this, I have to negotiate with my husband. The good news (or maybe it's not so good), is that he has expensive hobbies as well. In addition to our joint bank account (which pays the bills), we each have separate discretionary accounts... that way no-one should complain when one spends absurd amounts of money on what the other feels is ridiculous. Of course this doesn't stop either one of us from making sarcastic remarks, but it works.

And for some strange reason he was the one encouraging me to buy the 70-200 2.8 IS. He must be priming me for something...

[CyberDyneSystems]

Charlie don't surf! :D

[ilya]

HeatherJL wrote:
I thoroughly enjoyed this post, thank for the entertainment. :)

Your son is ADORABLE... I have a one year old little girl, so I have a thing for babies.

:) Mine is 10 months


Anyway, it's kinda funny being on the opposite side of this, I have to negotiate with my husband.


No, you are on the same side of this as us


And for some strange reason he was the one encouraging me to buy the 70-200 2.8 IS. He must be priming me for something...

Keep us posted, could be interesting

[ilya]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
Charlie don't surf! :D

"What the hell do you know about surfing? You're from goddamned New Jersey. "
:D