Extreme Frustration - Photoshop

[SWPhotoImaging]

I have a great camera (10D), that produces awesome high-resolution images, which I manipulate in Photoshop, and print on my Canon i9100 printer.

My problem is, I love the quality of the digital images, and the clarity of the on-screen versions. I find the resolution of the digital images stunning to say the least.

Unfortunately, EVERYTHING I print looks like CRAP! For some reason, I can't get the printed image to come anywhere near the resolution of the screen image, and all colors are much less vivid. I looks as if i am printing in draft mode, even though the printer settings are "high quality" and "photo pro paper" and such. Even with the best Kodak glossy paper I own, everything comes out looking like it's a low-res test print.

I am starting to hate Photoshop . . .

What am I missing?

Where do I start to make sure I have everything correctly calibrated?

I am about to give up ever printing a good image, and just publish them all on the web. This isn't why I started using a 10D, I really wanted to print and display some of my work.

HELP!

Thanks for any advice,

Steve

[TonyKInTexas]

At what size are these prints made at?

When I print with my Canon D30 (MP the 10D has), I set my DPI to 300 *after* I crop and size my image.

My guess is the image is still set to 72DPI which is not sufficient for printing. Its great for screen rendering.

Also, to print the system needs to be color calibrated. Nothing fancy. Make sure to use the correct color profile for the monitor and the printer (if it has one). And use the Adobe Gamma tool to make sure the monitor renders the colors accurately.

Good luck,

[SWPhotoImaging]

Thanksfor the feedback, Tony.

Actually,I amusing resolutions of 250 and greater, printing only 5x7 (identical to screen size I am working on) and on-screen I have extremeclarity and detail. I can see every minute detail. The problem is that when I print, it looks like a color version of "pushed" Tri-X Pan, complete with mega-grain. It's like a draft print vs. a high-res.

I did get a .jpg of a flower to print with photo-res quality, but can't seem to do so with other pics. I am wondering if it's something to dowith a JPG file vs. a PSD file? Most of the pics I have shot start out as CRW and I load them into PC-CS and work on them, then save as PSD.

I am scouring the Internet now seeking details on how to do the color calibration, how to find the profiles for the monitor and the printer, etc.

If anyone can recommend a good book on this particular topic, I'll go buy it immediately. I didn't invest $10,000 in camera, computer, monitor, printer etc. just to turn out what look like screen prints of web images.

Thanks for any input,

Steve the newbie.

[John_T]

For starters I would go here,

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/digitalphotography/gopro/fixit/colormanagement.asp

and here,

http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/digitalphotography/gopro/organize/calibrate.asp

then here,

http://www.colorvision.com/

then see where you are at.

It's not you, it's not Photoshop (a love/hate affair) and it's not the printer (I have the same and it's excellent), it's everything when they aren't it synch. Above all you need a confirmed starting point, which I say is a colorimeter calibrated and profiled monitor.

[SWPhotoImaging]

Ok, I am making progress. Today I discovered that just because you select Photo Pro Paper, and High quality printing doesn't mean you get the best resolution. You have to select Custom, and drag a slider over to level "1" to get the best output from the Canon printer driver. Go figure. I also have discovered that there are a few more variables in the "Print with preview" menu, such as printer profile, etc. I believe I may get to where I thought I'd get with this technology after all.

Thank you for your asssistance, I am following every lead, reading all available material, and my understanding of the process is improving by the minute.

Please feel free to forward any additional recommendations for reading or sstudy.

Thanks again,

Steve

[henkbos]

Once you're done with all the exercises, go and download Qimage. You will see twice the details. It produces outstanding print results.

[submannz]

Did your printer come with a ICC colour profile, if so you could use that as your profile for the camera giving the closest colour matching under colour settings, workspace, RGB, select your printer options from the list.

[maderito]

The basic problem is that the Canon offers high quality printers for the masses -- not for serious photographers (IMO). Meanwhile, there's very little documentation from Canon or on the web that provides help (especially compared to stuff you can read about how to optimize results for Epson printers).

If you know nothing about color management and just print your photos from a low-end XYZ application, the results are likely to be terrific. But if you're working in a color managed environment - i.e. Photoshop - then you have to face so many choices that it makes your hair hurt.

Assuming that your monitor is reasonably calibrated (i.e. at a minimum Adobe Gamma), that you're shooting with the 10D on Drebel in Adobe RGB, and that you’re using Photoshop:

1. Assign (don't convert) the Adobe RGB ICC profile to the camera image (don't convert) when loading into PS.
2. Leave color management to the printer driver (contrary to conventional advice).
3. You do this by selecting Source space as Document - Adobe RGB-1998 and print space as "same as source."
4. Select Photo Paper Pro (if that's what you're using) in the print dialogue box.
5. Select "auto" for color adjustment in the final print driver dialogue.

This, in effect, takes Photoshop out of the loop for color management, sends the Adobe RGB ICC to the print driver, and presumably invokes printer driver color management using Canon's "Bubble Jet Printer" ICC (which may not be perfect for your specific Canon printer, but is a reasonable starting point).

If you're shooting in sRGB color space, you'll need a different workflow. I'm hesitant to recommend a solution since I never do this.

Finally, I can't convince myself that working in "custom" and setting the quality to 1 (vs. 2) prints makes a visibly difference for most prints.. It wastes a lot of (expensive) ink. Getting ths color management workflow is more important.

My standard workflow is actually different from what I'm suggesting here, but I'm giving you a starting point from which you can then experiment with Photoshop color management and printer specific ICC profiles. If you do the experimenting, always refer back to this basic workflow to convince yourself that you're getting better prints. And don't forget that your monitor calibration plays a major role in getting your prints to look like what you're seeing on the screen.

I've read so many posts on using Canon printers (sometimes helpful, sometimes flat-out wrong), and posted a few myself that I would like to retract. Keep that in mind as you consider my suggestions. :)

[scottbergerphoto]

maderito wrote:
The basic problem is that the Canon offers high quality printers for the masses -- not for serious photographers (IMO). Meanwhile, there's very little documentation from Canon or on the web that provides help (especially compared to stuff you can read about how to optimize results for Epson printers).

If you know nothing about color management and just print your photos from a low-end XYZ application, the results are likely to be terrific. But if you're working in a color managed environment - i.e. Photoshop - then you have to face so many choices that it makes your hair hurt.

Assuming that your monitor is reasonably calibrated (i.e. at a minimum Adobe Gamma), that you're shooting with the 10D on Drebel in Adobe RGB, and that you’re using Photoshop:

1. Assign (don't convert) the Adobe RGB ICC profile to the camera image (don't convert) when loading into PS.
2. Leave color management to the printer driver (contrary to conventional advice).
3. You do this by selecting Source space as Document - Adobe RGB-1998 and print space as "same as source."
4. Select Photo Paper Pro (if that's what you're using) in the print dialogue box.
5. Select "auto" for color adjustment in the final print driver dialogue.

This, in effect, takes Photoshop out of the loop for color management, sends the Adobe RGB ICC to the print driver, and presumably invokes printer driver color management using Canon's "Bubble Jet Printer" ICC (which may not be perfect for your specific Canon printer, but is a reasonable starting point).

If you're shooting in sRGB color space, you'll need a different workflow. I'm hesitant to recommend a solution since I never do this.

Finally, I can't convince myself that working in "custom" and setting the quality to 1 (vs. 2) prints makes a visibly difference for most prints.. It wastes a lot of (expensive) ink. Getting ths color management workflow is more important.

My standard workflow is actually different from what I'm suggesting here, but I'm giving you a starting point from which you can then experiment with Photoshop color management and printer specific ICC profiles. If you do the experimenting, always refer back to this basic workflow to convince yourself that you're getting better prints. And don't forget that your monitor calibration plays a major role in getting your prints to look like what you're seeing on the screen.

I've read so many posts on using Canon printers (sometimes helpful, sometimes flat-out wrong), and posted a few myself that I would like to retract. Keep that in mind as you consider my suggestions. :)

What a great, clear post on how to let the printer take over for color management. I recently shot a bunch of JPEGS on my 10D instead of RAW and I decided to take the easy way out and let the printer driver take over. Problem was I couldn't remember how to set up Print Preview so as not to have two color profiles. I had gotten used to setting the Printer ICC profile in Print Preview. John and Andy helped me out. You can see their responses in my topic posted on this board.

With regards to sRGB,I used to shoot in this color space when I first got my 10D. I set the Print Preview, Print Space to "same as source" and the Epson 2200 Printer Driver to sRGB.

I see that you selected your Print Space as "same as source". When would you use "printer color management" as your print space instead of "same as source"?
Scott

[maderito]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
I see that you selected your Print Space as "same as source". When would you use "printer color management" as your print space instead of "same as source"?
Scott


As long as I my source space is Adobe RGB, selecting "same as source" for the print space seems to give me accurate prints. Supposedly, this is how you tell the printer to do NO color management. I'm not sure how the Canon driver handles this -- but it must be doing some color management since the final print depends on which "media type" you choose in the print driver dialogue.

If I choose print space = "printer color management" when the source is Adobe RGB, the print does not come out quite right - I don't know why. If the source space has is sRGB (and the image is tagged as such), then it prints OK. Admittedly, this seemingly unusual behavior may be a function of my not having a well calibrated monitor.

Again I emphasize, the Canon documentation is limited, so I can't be sure how the print driver responds to different senarios as it interacts with Photoshop.

Scott ... you've read the same online info I have read (and probably more). Until someone who is working with Canon printers with real knowledge on the subject comes forward, I think we'll be in the dark insofar as more sophisticated color management workflows. The bottom line for me is that the Canon printers (i950 and its several relatives) deliver truly great quality when using Canon inks and papers for non color managed workflows between the image processing application and the printer.

[scottbergerphoto]

Thanks for getting back to me.
Scott

[John_T]

I admit it is confusing, and seemingly not always consistant. I have the Canon BJC i9100.

When I print:

In PS -

Source space:
Document Source Profile: sRGB EEC61966-2.1

Print Space:
Profile: Printer Color Management

In Canon i9100 Properties Main tab:

Color Adjustment: Auto

This seems to get me what is on my colorimeter calibrated monitor. It is a subtle thing. Of course if you are using non-Canon papers, I use Canon, Ilford and Tetenal, you have to take into consideration the paper manufacturer's guidelines or even specific paper ICC profiles.

Of course if your monitor isn't colorimeter calibrated, you are to some degree flying colorblind.

[maderito]

John_T wrote:
Source space:
Document Source Profile: sRGB EEC61966-2.1

Print Space:
Profile: Printer Color Management

In Canon i9100 Properties Main tab:

Color Adjustment: Auto

John_T,

Agreed ... this should work (and does work for me when I happen to have an sRGB image).

Have you tried using Adobe RGB as the document source space/profile? In this case, I am assuming that you would have an image captured and edited in the Adobe RGB color space and that the image is assigned the same profile.

I ask because I have this nagging concern that the Canon print driver always wants to work with sRGB unless you turn off printer color management. In other words, Canon's print driver (and associated printer profile) seem to work best on sRGB images. Perhaps for this reason, some prefer to convert the image to the printer profile from within PS and then turn off printer color management (trusting PS to do a better job) when sending the image to print.

Any thoughts?

[chris.bailey]

Aaaargh. Colour management, a black art all in itself. I have spent hours and hours and hours getting a setup that give consistent results.

Step 1) Get your monitor profiled and having done so dont touch any of the controls. A Spyder makes short work of doing this, not cheap but worth the money.

Step 2) Be consistent with the colour space sRGB or Adobe RGB, I use the latter. why use a smaller Gamut than you have to? Dont convert colour profiles unless you really really have to.

Step 3) Unless you can obtain colour profiles for the printer and paper you use, leave the printer to colour manage but get a test image and use that to fine tune the printer settings so that the test image prints the same as the screen colours. You will get better results if you can profile the printer and paper. Having such for Epson Semigloss on my Epson 2100 (2200 in US) has made an immense difference.

If you are happy with the results you are getting dont worry about any of the above as it leads to the early stages of madness in getting it right.

[John_T]

As long as your original image is tagged as sRGB, Adobe RGB or whatever, it will make no difference to the print end. The tag is like an ID, says I am this kind of photo, my colors are this way, my luninance is that way, etc. The next guy says aha, now I know what to do with you.

You the user don't have to do anything.

[scottbergerphoto]

There are ICC Profiles for the Epson 2200 on the install disk, in the PIM folder. Epson has downloadable ICC profiles on their web site for other Epson printers. They work very well for Adobe RGB and sRGB. I choose the appropriate Epson ICC profile in "Print Space" and set the printer to No Color Adjustment. My monitor is calibrated with Colorvision Spyder / Optical. I use Epson paper tp keep it simple and consistent.
Scott

[chris.bailey]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
There are ICC Profiles for the Epson 2200 on the install disk, in the PIM folder. Epson has downloadable ICC profiles on their web site for other Epson printers. They work very well for Adobe RGB and sRGB. I choose the appropriate Epson ICC profile in "Print Space" and set the printer to No Color Adjustment. My monitor is calibrated with Colorvision Spyder / Optical. I use Epson paper tp keep it simple and consistent.
Scott

Scott

I find that if I use the Epson paper specific profiles and set the 2200 to no colour management the colours drift a bit from my Spyder calibrated screen. I get better results (better colour rendition) if I use these profiles with the 2200 set to Auto colour which is somewhat inconsistent. Can be very frustrating indeed.

Chris

[phili1]

I second the Qimage print program, its outstanding.

I also have the Epson 2200 and I use the no color adjustment when using the profiles. If you use the others settings you can get a magenta cast.

[scottbergerphoto]

phili1 wrote:
I second the Qimage print program, its outstanding.

I also have the Epson 2200 and I use the no color adjustment when using the profiles. If you use the others settings you can get a magenta cast.
The reason for the magenta cast is that there are two profiles telling the printer what to do. If you set an output profile in Photoshop, set the printer to No Color Adjustment. If you set the output in Photoshop to Same as Source or Printer Color Management, you have to make a selection in the Printer Driver other then NO Color Management, such as ICM, or sRGB, or Automatic.
Scott

[IanD]

maderito wrote:




Assuming that your monitor is reasonably calibrated (i.e. at a minimum Adobe Gamma), that you're shooting with the 10D on Drebel in Adobe RGB, and that you’re using Photoshop:

1. Assign (don't convert) the Adobe RGB ICC profile to the camera image (don't convert) when loading into PS.
2. Leave color management to the printer driver (contrary to conventional advice).
3. You do this by selecting Source space as Document - Adobe RGB-1998 and print space as "same as source."
4. Select Photo Paper Pro (if that's what you're using) in the print dialogue box.
5. Select "auto" for color adjustment in the final print driver dialogue.

This, in effect, takes Photoshop out of the loop for color management, sends the Adobe RGB ICC to the print driver, and presumably invokes printer driver color management using Canon's "Bubble Jet Printer" ICC (which may not be perfect for your specific Canon printer, but is a reasonable starting point).

If you're shooting in sRGB color space, you'll need a different workflow. I'm hesitant to recommend a solution since I never do this.

I have spent many hours reading posts here and on other sites as to the proper hadling of printer drivers/PS settingsa to the point that I thought I was going to go blind :)
At first I sort of passed over Woodys post because it semed too simple. (not a fast learner here)
Last night I re-read this thread and gave it a try. Magic!
Print and monitor are
are so close that all it took as a minor color tweak to have extradionary prints. I've been messing around with settings for a couple of weeks and figure that I now own 50% of Canon stock just by purchasing ink and paper :D
Woody, many thanks for your post. It has saved my sanity and my wallet.
Ian

[msnow]

I also subscribe to the manderito, IanD method. I don't let Photoshop control the color management to the printer, I use the printers color profile (on my S2000) do that. Results are better since I started doing that.

[mikecr]

I have couple things maybe help.Give up on Kodak papers canon printers hate them.Have tried many ways and always so much better on canons own.I find the easy way is if using Windows XP is do all your work on photos and I always use my pictures folder find the fastest way and do my photo printing from within that folder,I have got the most consistent results with Windows.I have found very rare to print bad picture from this method.I use Canon S900 with G3 camera and always seem print great pictures.I have been using alot now the Canon matt photo paper and love the detail that I have been getting.I use a lcd display and almost always get the same picture from printer.Sounds too simple but works for me.

[Anonymous]

But what if I take my photos to the photoshop to get printed. I know nothing about their printer. What can I do?