Printing/Software Problem

[scottbergerphoto]

I am using a 10D, shoot Raw, convert in BreezeBrowser, post process in Photoshop Elements 2.0 (PSE2), and print on an Epson 2200.
Up until 2 months ago I was shooting Raw, sRGB, and I did virtually no color management other then calibrating my monitor with Adobe Gamma. In PSE2 I didn't choose input or output options in Print Preview. I set the printer driver for my Epson 2200 to sRGB or ICM. The results were quite good. Then I switched to more color management. I started shooting Raw, Adobe RGB, I calibrated my monitor with Spyder/Optical, installed the Epson ICC profiles, and started putting my input/source, output instructions into PSE2 print preview, and in the printer driver, I select " No Color Adjustment.". These prints are excellent and are very close to the monitor.
Last night I took some Fine JPEG photos set to Adobe RGB. I decided to use the Epson printer driver instead of the settings in PSE2. No matter what setting I use, sRGB, ICM, PhotoRealistic, all the prints have a heavy magenta cast. I then switched the printer driver to "No Color Adjustment", and in PSE2 set the source as Untagged, and the outut as : Sp2200---Premium semigloss and the picture printed out great.
I then went to an old photo that was tagged with sRGB, to see if this was a problem with the printer driver and Adobe RGB. The same thing happened. The Epson printer driver produces photos with a heavy magenta cast, and the photo produced by using instructions in PSE2 source: sRGB, output: sp2200.....etc. are fine.
Can anyone explain why my printer driver now produces pictures with a magenta cast?
Scott
Update! I figured out the answer to the problem and decided to post it here with the original question in case it ever happens to anyone else.
I wrongly assumed that since I was using the printer driver to assign a profile to my picture, that it didn't matter what I put in the output section of Print Preview in PSE2. I left it as the ICC profile for the paper Sp2200....prem glossy. That was the problem. I needed to reassign the Output to my current Monitor Profile. I did that and the Magenta Cast disappeared.
So, I guess the lesson is that if you are going to use the Epson Printer Driver to determine the color profile, you have to assign your current monitor profile in PSE2 Print Preview as the Output. If you assign the printer profile as your Output in PSE2, the Printer Driver should be set to No Color Adjustment.
If I bored you, I apologize. If you found this useful, I'm glad.
Scott

[AJSJones]

Scott - good to remind folks of the importance of understanding color management. The giveaway in your case was the strong magenta cast - this is the hallmark of "double profiling" - i.e. where both the image editing program (in your case PSE2) AND the printer both apply a profile.

The key message is this is an either/or proposition. I use PS so am not familiar with PSE2. However, you shouldn't really need to apply the monitor profile to any images, it's just used to tell PS (or PSE I guess) how to adjust the RGB values in the image so your monitor shows it correctly. In this case the "it" is the RGB image in your working space (often Adobe RGB, otherwise sRGB). You can't see this unless it goes to the monitor or printer. This image needs to be converted either for monitor viewing (with a monitor profile, to "undo" the imperfections in the monitor) or for printing (with a profile specific for the printer/paper/ink combination). PS and PSE can do these things and it's often simplest to let PS do all the color management (hence the Printer dialog of "No color adjustment"). Once your monitor is calibrated and the system uses the profile to display images, you shouldn't need to worry about the monitor profile again.

I did that and in PS I use Adobe RGB as my working space and the monitor profile makes sure I see it correctly. When I am close to printing, I set up the Proof space with my Printer profile and do a soft-proof check that the image looks like it will print OK. If I want to change paper, I would load a different profile into the proof set-up dialog. In this workflow, PS does ALL the color management so you want the printer to do none. In PS, I "Print with Preview" Here I see the image and where it is on the page and specify Source space as the above Soft-proof and Destination as "same as source" then print with No color management for the printer (but specify the dpi and print options in the appropriate place) and print away.

Sounds like your monitor profile is not having a big effect when applied to an image destined for printing (lucky) but you really shouldn't need/use it for printing!

Andy

[john_houghton]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
So, I guess the lesson is that if you are going to use the Epson Printer Driver to determine the color profile, you have to assign your current monitor profile in PSE2 Print Preview as the Output.

Monitor profiles have nothing to do with printers. If you are using the ICM driver setting, choose "Printer Color Management" in Print with Preview instead of the printer profile.

John

[scottbergerphoto]

Thanks John and Andy. Your information was very helpful. I changed the print space from my monitor profile to Printer Color Management and it worked very well. It makes perfect sense that you shouldn't have two profiles talking to the printer.
I wonder why the monitor profile worked so well and looked normal in Print Preview. Any ideas on the subject? A second question: When would you choose for your print space "same as source" as opposed to "printer color management"?
Once again thanks for you help on what can be a very confusing subject.
Scott

[AJSJones]

Scott,
Why applying your monitor profile worked is hard to say. Perhaps it's not a very "strong" profile (i.e. doesn't change the values much) and its effect wasn't obvious on top of the printer's profile.
I'm following Bill Atkinson's workflow (partly because I'm using his profiles - on the Epson site under Professional / ICC profiles - I can't paste the link. Those profiles come with a readme that explains the workflow). In this case, the document has had the correct profile applied to it in order to be able to soft-proof. Thus the destination device should not do anything extra. IF your document is in Adobe RGB (and therefore you are looking at "it" through your monitor profile as you make sure it's OK) AND you don't use PS or PSE to handle color management, THEN you would use Printer management and select the right paper/ink combo in their print dialog - this makes the apply their profile, so there's still only one profiling goin' on.

Hope this helps

Andy

[scottbergerphoto]

AJSJones wrote:
Scott,
Why applying your monitor profile worked is hard to say. Perhaps it's not a very "strong" profile (i.e. doesn't change the values much) and its effect wasn't obvious on top of the printer's profile.
I'm following Bill Atkinson's workflow (partly because I'm using his profiles - on the Epson site under Professional / ICC profiles - I can't paste the link. Those profiles come with a readme that explains the workflow). In this case, the document has had the correct profile applied to it in order to be able to soft-proof. Thus the destination device should not do anything extra. IF your document is in Adobe RGB (and therefore you are looking at "it" through your monitor profile as you make sure it's OK) AND you don't use PS or PSE to handle color management, THEN you would use Printer management and select the right paper/ink combo in their print dialog - this makes the apply their profile, so there's still only one profiling goin' on.

Hope this helps

Andy
Thanks Andy but I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in terms of the actual settings for Print Space in PS and the Epson Printer Driver. I believe I understand now when to select "Printer management" in PS (lack of appropriate printer or paper profile), and how to apply Epson ICC profiles instead. I have the Epson ICC profiles installed in my windows xp color folder. When I select one in PSE Print Space I set the Printer Driver to No Color Management.
When would you select "same as source" in Print Space in PS, and what would you select in the Printer Driver for this selection?
Scott

[AJSJones]

AJSJones wrote:

When would you select "same as source" in Print Space in PS, and what would you select in the Printer Driver for this selection?
Scott

Scoott - two things I use a Mac and I use PSCS (not PSE - so I don't know what options and dialog boxes there are).

Towards the end of image processing, I set the View to "Proof Colors" by telling PS that I will be using a particular profile (in Proof Setup - I don't know if PSE allows this!). It then applies that profile to the RGB values in the document (which is in Adobe RGB space because that's my working space). The monitor then shows (as well as a monitor can) how the print will look. [BTW at this point, the RGB values have had the printer profile applied and also the monitor profile to correct for the imperfections of the monitor and to show me how well the printer will do].

So the document when viewed in Proof is no longer in Adobe RGB space but in Printer profile "space". This is now the "source" and it is what I want to send to the printer. That's why, in the destination space, I select "Same as source" and don't let the printer mess with it.

Hope that helps clarify it a bit more but a Windows/PSE user might be able to chime in with more specifics!

Andy

[scottbergerphoto]

Thanks Andy. PSE is different, but I can still preview the effects of the profile I choose by selecting Print Preview in the Printer Driver. When I mistakenly had two profiles selected before it showed the heavy magenta cast. Thanks for the time and effort you spent responding.
Scott