Budget Flashguns - pointless?

[Mike 289]

My D30 has served me very well, but shots of grandchildren using the built-in flash tend to be too harshly lit, and red-eye can be very dramatic. Available light gives me pleasing results but sometimes flash is the only option. A separate flashgun seems to be the way to go, but my budget rules out the generally well-reviewed Canon 550EX at around £260. For £100 Jessops 400AF seems to offer a reasonable spec, including variable power and GN40. However, like most guns it is TTL not E-TTL. So, are such budget guns simply unsuitable or do they work with so many limitations that they end up being binned out of sheer frustration?

Guidance would be most appreciated.

Regards,
Mike

[Cordell]

Mike, have you looked into the Sigma 500 DG Super? This flash is in-line with the 550 for the same price as a Canon 420EX. If you don't need the manual settings at all I would go for the 420ex. However, I truely think the Sigma flash is a great buy if you use manual flash settings or not.

[Jim_T]

Unfortunately, there are few third party E-TTL lenses fully compatible with EOS digital cameras.

Many budget ones will fit and flash, but only at full power. This will leave you to compute every exposure manually using guide numbers etc. Not much fun.

The only flashes I know of that are 100% compatible are the Sigma 500DG (as cordell pointed out).. and the Metz 54MZ-3

[scottbergerphoto]

Canon digital cameras will only function in ETTL when used via the hot shoe, no TTL. There are however, third party flashes that have their own thyristor that regulate the amount of flash in conjunction with the f stop and Iso. They connect via the PC socket. This is known as Auto Mode. The thyristor on the flash measures the flash reflected off the subject and shuts off the flash when it senses that there has been enough. You simply measure the distance from the subject to the flash, pick an f stop from a table on the back of the flash or LCD of the flash that corresponds to that distance, and make sure that the camera and flash are set for that f stop. Set your shutter speed to expose the background but not faster then the max sync speed of the camera. Depending on the manufacturer it can be more reliable/consistent then ETTL. There is no pre flash. I use the Q Flash T2D in Auto mode and ETTL(with pre flash) with an adaptor that sits in the hot shoe. While this is not a budget flash, it points to the fact that Auto Mode is still a useful tool in photography. There are some older Nikon Flashes that have this mode that you might be able to pick up used.

[slin100]

scottbergerphoto wrote:
There are however, third party flashes that have their own thyristor that regulate the amount of flash in conjunction with the f stop and Iso. They connect via the PC socket. This is known as Auto Mode. The thyristor on the flash measures the flash reflected off the subject and shuts off the flash when it senses that there has been enough. You simply measure the distance from the subject to the flash, pick an f stop from a table on the back of the flash or LCD of the flash that corresponds to that distance, and make sure that the camera and flash are set for that f stop. Set your shutter speed to expose the background but not faster then the max sync speed of the camera.
This needs some clarification. There are many auto-thyristor flashes that attach via the hot-shoe. The Vivitar 283 is one example.

You do not need to calculate flash-to-subject distances to determine the f-stop for an auto flash. What you described is the procedure for a flash operating in manual, fixed-output mode. Sorry, Scott. I just realized you did describe setting f-stop correctly, but I was misinterpreted it.

An auto flash usually has one or more pre-set f-stop settings at a given ISO (e.g. f/4 @ ISO 100, 5-20 ft). You simply set the f-stop on your camera to match the setting on the flash. As long as the subject is within the allowable range for that setting, and the background is not too dark or light, the exposure should be correct. If the background is too dark (as is often the case), the subject may end up overexposed. In this case, you can compensate for the overexposure by stopping down the aperature.

[scottbergerphoto]

slin100 wrote:
scottbergerphoto wrote:
There are however, third party flashes that have their own thyristor that regulate the amount of flash in conjunction with the f stop and Iso. They connect via the PC socket. This is known as Auto Mode. The thyristor on the flash measures the flash reflected off the subject and shuts off the flash when it senses that there has been enough. You simply measure the distance from the subject to the flash, pick an f stop from a table on the back of the flash or LCD of the flash that corresponds to that distance, and make sure that the camera and flash are set for that f stop. Set your shutter speed to expose the background but not faster then the max sync speed of the camera.
This needs some clarification. There are many auto-thyristor flashes that attach via the hot-shoe. The Vivitar 283 is one example.

You do not need to calculate flash-to-subject distances to determine the f-stop for an auto flash. What you described is the procedure for a flash operating in manual, fixed-output mode. Sorry, Scott. I just realized you did describe setting f-stop correctly, but I was misinterpreted it.

An auto flash usually has one or more pre-set f-stop settings at a given ISO (e.g. f/4 @ ISO 100, 5-20 ft). You simply set the f-stop on your camera to match the setting on the flash. As long as the subject is within the allowable range for that setting, and the background is not too dark or light, the exposure should be correct. If the background is too dark (as is often the case), the subject may end up overexposed. In this case, you can compensate for the overexposure by stopping down the aperature.
Just for clarification:
1. The f stop you choose for an Auto Mode flash IS dependent on the distance from flash to subject, which you must measure or read off the lens distance scale(if the lens has one), and the ISO setting of the camera or film. You could of course choose an f stop first and then move the subject into the distance range for that f stop, but that's not usually the way most people take pictures.
2. On a Canon Digital Camera, I don't think you can use the auto flash on the hot shoe because of ETTL and pre flash. I may be wrong(perish the thought), but it may not fire. You can use a PC cord if the flash has a PC socket, or use a hot shoe to PC cord adapter. This also alleviates the problem of measuring the hot shoe voltage of the flash. For Canon, the hot shoe voltage is limited to 6V. Some third party flashes have much higher hot shoe voltages. If you go the hot shoe route, use a Wein Safe Sync, to protect the camera.
Scott

[slin100]

One, or both of us, is confused. For a flash in auto mode the f stop is fixed over a range of distances. For example, one of the auto settings on my flash is f/4 up to about 30 feet. As long as the subject is within 30 feet, then using f/4 will result in a properly exposed subject.

What you've described, at least according to my understanding, is the procedure for setting the f-stop using the flash's exposure calculator when the flash is in manual (not auto) mode. In manual mode, the flash outputs a fixed amount of light, so the subject distance plays a directly proportional role in determining the correct aperature for proper exposure. A subject properly exposed at f/4 at 10 feet would need f/8 at 20 feet, for example. With a flash in auto mode, you would use f/4 at either distance.

Triggering a flash via the PC socket will always work, but many auto flashes work fine on ETTL cameras. My old Promaster 5200 which I used to use with my Canon A-1, works fine on my 10D. The trick to getting auto flashes to work on the EOS digitals is to disable any TTL/ETTL functionality. For some flashes this sometimes requires covering the TTL pin on the flash shoe. Technically, only the main pin is necessary for the camera to trigger to an auto flash.

[scottbergerphoto]

slin100 wrote:
One, or both of us, is confused. For a flash in auto mode the f stop is fixed over a range of distances. For example, one of the auto settings on my flash is f/4 up to about 30 feet. As long as the subject is within 30 feet, then using f/4 will result in a properly exposed subject.

What you've described, at least according to my understanding, is the procedure for setting the f-stop using the flash's exposure calculator when the flash is in manual (not auto) mode. In manual mode, the flash outputs a fixed amount of light, so the subject distance plays a directly proportional role in determining the correct aperature for proper exposure. A subject properly exposed at f/4 at 10 feet would need f/8 at 20 feet, for example. With a flash in auto mode, you would use f/4 at either distance.

Triggering a flash via the PC socket will always work, but many auto flashes work fine on ETTL cameras. My old Promaster 5200 which I used to use with my Canon A-1, works fine on my 10D. The trick to getting auto flashes to work on the EOS digitals is to disable any TTL/ETTL functionality. For some flashes this sometimes requires covering the TTL pin on the flash shoe. Technically, only the main pin is necessary for the camera to trigger to an auto flash.

I don't know how to explain it any better. Flash Auto Mode requires you to pick your f stop based on distance and the thyristor does the rest. There are usually two f stops for any given distance due to overlap, giving you some flexibility.

In Manual mode there is no thyristor control. You set the f stop on the camera by using using a flash meter or you can use the Guide Number of the flash to set the f stop based on distance. GN / f stop = distance. The table you are talking about is probably a compilation of calculations based on f stop and distance.There is no feedback to the flash.

So both Auto mode and Manual mode require you to take distance into account. The difference is that Auto mode incorporates feedback from the thyristor to turn the flash off, Manual mode does not. Also in auto mode you don't usually manually adjust the output of the flash.
Scott

[slin100]

I think we ultimately agree about what to do in practice, but I find your explanations very confusing.

scottbergerphoto wrote:
I don't know how to explain it any better. Flash Auto Mode requires you to pick your f stop based on distance and the thyristor does the rest. There are usually two f stops for any given distance due to overlap, giving you some flexibility.

What I find confusing about your explanation is the implication that the f stop varies with distance. This is not true for an auto flash, so long as you are within the working range of the flash setting. The flash varies its power to keep the f stop fixed.

Suppose you have a flash with two auto settings: blue (f/2 from 10-40 ft) and yellow (f/4 from 5-20 ft). If the setting is blue, then setting the aperature to f/2 will produce the correct exposure as long as the subject is between 10 and 40 ft. You don't have to change the f stop if the subject moves anywhere in this range.

Since the two modes overlap between 10 and 20 ft, you have a choice of using either aperature at these distances. Anything beyond 20 ft there is no choice but to go to f/4.

This example illustrates that the selection of the f stop is very loosely based on distance. It's heavily based on the f stop dictated by the flash setting (i.e. blue or yellow). Given that most subjects in your typical snapshot are between 5-15 ft, you can probably just set and forget your flash mode and camera aperature and shoot away.

In Manual mode there is no thyristor control. You set the f stop on the camera by using using a flash meter or you can use the Guide Number of the flash to set the f stop based on distance. GN / f stop = distance. The table you are talking about is probably a compilation of calculations based on f stop and distance.There is no feedback to the flash.

Completely agree with the above.

So both Auto mode and Manual mode require you to take distance into account. The difference is that Auto mode incorporates feedback from the thyristor to turn the flash off, Manual mode does not. Also in auto mode you don't usually manually adjust the output of the flash.

The difference I'm trying to convey is that distance is much less a concern for auto mode than manual mode. In auto mode, distance determines the flash setting which determines the aperature. In manual mode, distance directly determines the aperature as you explained.

[scottbergerphoto]

Steve,
I'm sorry. That's the best I can do. If you check the manual of any flash that does Auto Mode you will see that it says exactly what I posted. I checked the manuals of two Nikon Flashes and my Quantum Q Flash T2D. They all say the same thing. In fact if you read the first paragraph of your last post, so are you. If you go beyond the range of one f stop you have to go to the next. The fact that f stops cover a range of distance and that two adjacent f stops overlap doesn't mean there isn't an important relationship going on. Light falls off in a continuom proportional to the inverse square of the distance. Double the distance and you get 1/4 the light. It's gradual, not in discrete steps. This relationship is true for all kinds of flashes. What your missing is the contribution of the Thyristor. No thyristor, No Auto Mode. And you are correct, once you set an f stop and a distance range you can shoot till the cows come home and get pretty consistent results as long as you stay within the range. That's why professional photographers will spend over $500 for an Auto Mode flash.
Good Night,
Scott

[slin100]

Scott, no need to apologize. I'm pretty sure, now, that we're in agreement.

I do understand about the inverse-square law. I guess all I'm trying to say is that, unlike manual flash, you don't have to keep the law in mind when using auto flash. The thyristor, as you say, handles it for you by regulating the flash output.

BTW, if there's a professional photographer out there spending $500 for an auto-thyristor flash, that's spending way too much. You can get a Vivitar 283 for less than $70.

[scottbergerphoto]

slin100 wrote:
Scott, no need to apologize. I'm pretty sure, now, that we're in agreement.

I do understand about the inverse-square law. I guess all I'm trying to say is that, unlike manual flash, you don't have to keep the law in mind when using auto flash. The thyristor, as you say, handles it for you by regulating the flash output.

BTW, if there's a professional photographer out there spending $500 for an auto-thyristor flash, that's spending way too much. You can get a Vivitar 283 for less than $70.
I use the Quantum Q Flash T2D, and I'm sorry to say that with the flash and two Turbo Z batteries, that's about $1200.
Scott

[slin100]

I guess when I think of auto-thyristor flashes, I don't usually have the Quantum in mind, which is considerably more than just a auto-thyristor flash. It supports E-TTL and is a monster of a flash.

[Mike 289]

Thanks for the surprisingly stimulating responses! The Sigma EF500 DG Super sounds attractive – the price though is around £200 (Amazon) compared with ~£175 for the Canon 420EX and ~£250 for the 550EX.

I visited a local Jessops today and they have a Vivitar 283 in stock at ~£80. However, there was no indication of compatibility with any camera. The staff were helpful, but could not tell me anything about it or if it was D30 compatible, let alone the voltage at the contact. If it means anything, there is only one contact pin (main?) on the shoe. The Vivitar website gives very little info to help me.

So, despite your helpful contributions, I am still uncertain. Please bear in mind that my budget (which could change if Christmas works out less expensive than expected) is around £100. This is way short of the Sigma. Basically, all I need is an off-camera (or on its flash shoe) auto flash that works as simply as the built-in flash. My subjects are young grandchildren and I want to be able to move around them grabbing shots as opportunities arise. I have got many great shots, but some are too harshly lit – removing red-eye in Photoshop is just too time consuming as well.

Thanks again – I certainly have a better insight into the subject now.

Mike

[tony4563]

Mike....I'm not into auto thyristors or inverse square rule. I'm a keen amateur photographer and good pleasing results are my aim. I use the Sigma EF 500 DG ST. I paid around £110 for it new. To me, it gives great results. Exposures are spot on whether direct or bounced. I use it in manual mode with my D60. I set the shutter speed to 1/180 and aperture value at either f4 or f5.6. I leave the lens in autofocus mode. Never had a badly exposed shot yet. Recommended.

[Mike 289]

Tony – Sigma 500 DG ST at £105/£110 meets my budget. Sigma website http://www.sigmaphoto.com/html/flashes.htm gives useful info and confirms E-TTL capability. It certainly sounds promising and I will follow it up. Presumably, it would work with a D30 as well as your D60.

Has anyone with a D30 actual experience with this Sigma?

Mike

[slin100]

Mike 289 wrote:
I visited a local Jessops today and they have a Vivitar 283 in stock at ~£80. However, there was no indication of compatibility with any camera. The staff were helpful, but could not tell me anything about it or if it was D30 compatible, let alone the voltage at the contact. If it means anything, there is only one contact pin (main?) on the shoe. The Vivitar website gives very little info to help me.

The strobe voltage on the Vivitar is likely not safe on any Canon. Check out this link (http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html). However, Wein (http://www.weinproducts.com/safesyncs.htm) and Paramount (http://paramountcords.com/vp.htm) both sell voltage-protection hotshoes to allow for the use of such flashes.

[Mike 289]

A helpful local photographic shop (T4) are getting me a Sigma 500 DG ST @ £110 - so my quest may now be at an end. They too are confident that it is compatible with my D30. At the moment it is not absolutely clear that all of the Sigma flashgun's facilities work perfectly - but as long as it works as automatically as the flash built into the D30 I will be happy.

Mike

[tony4563]

Mike...Good choice mate. I don't think you'll be disappointed. Like I said earlier...switch your camera mode to manual, leave the lens switch in autofocus, set your maximum x-synch shutter speed for the camera ( I think its 1/125 or 1/180 for the D30 ) and an aperture of f4 or f5.6. This works great. If you leave the camera on AUTO I find it tends to overexpose ( always sets f4 and a shutter speed of 1/60 ) Bouncing the flash, if possible, is recommended too. The built in wide angle diffuser works very well. I've tried it with the Canon 17-40 and light coverage is very even at 17mm. Have a great Christmas!

[Lesmac]

I use the Sigma EF 500 DG St on my 10m, and am pleased with the results, like Tony, I use on manual (1/200 sec), and can adjust the aperture normally between f4 and f11, and get excellent results, direct and bounce.
It's a very powerful flash for the money.
There's an interesting article here
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
That may be of some help.
Regards

Les

[Lesmac]

That should read 10D.