Paper & Printing Help Please

[new girl on the bloc]

This may not be the "appropriate" forum for this but since it moves with more passion than the 'talk on photography' I figured I'd start here, if ya'll don't mind.

I have a Canon i960 printer. With using the cheap papers such as Avery I get great results. Using the expensive quality papers, namely Kodak Ultima and Fuji Premium Plus, I am getting noise like nobody's business! The colors are somewhat off on the Kodak as well.

I have printed from both the printer software and from PS using the canon printer profiles, both with high speckling.

Can anyone offer me some guidance here? Any help is much appreciated; I am wasting ink and paper! :(

[onehotrx7]

Kodak paper in particular does not work well with the latest Canon printers unless you use a low quality paper mode... the ink they put down on glossy paper like Canon PR-101 is too much for the Kodak paper, and it ends up giving a colour cast too...

Do yourself a favour, and try some PR-101, or MP-101 - they work like a dream with the top end Canons, and give you a high gloss or matte option...

Cheers,
Stuart

[Longwatcher]

I can't speak to the fuji paper, but I have usually gotten good results from the Kodak Ultima Paper. There have been a couple of exceptions, but I can't explain them, except it might have been higher humidity that day.

First, try using the Kodak recommended settings. The latestest batches of paper have had it on the sheet that comes with the box. Alternatively it is listed somewhere on their web page.

No matter which paper you use, you will need to color match the paper to the ink. I tried over 10 different papers with the BCI-6 ink set and each one had slightly different color tones.

One thing that might also help with the Kodak paper is to make sure the printer is running on highest quality versus fastest print. I can't remember where the setting is in the software, but printing a touch slower helps a bunch with the resin coated papers (still faster then an Epson).

When in doubt, Canon paper works well and all of the defaults are set for Canon brand paper, but other papers work fine.

Quick synopsis of my recommendations (feel free to ignore).

- 4x6 glossy color prints (canon photo paper)
- 8x10 Glossy color Prints (Kodak Ultima, Canon photo Paper, or Epson Glossy)
- 8x10 Satin color prints (Kodak Ultima or Ilford Gallerie Pearl)
- 11x17 color prints (Canon Photo paper)
- 13x19 color prints (Canon Photo paper)
- 8x10 B+W prints (Epson photo matte)
Except for 4x6 prints I always recommend spray coating Canon paper, if there is any chance it will be under flourescent lighting.

Just my opinion,

[nosquare2003]

I use Kodak Ultima on my Epson printer and it doesn't have new girl's problem. But I'm blind to the Kodak recommended settings. Got to try one. Thanks Longwatcher.

[new girl on the bloc]

thanks for your replies. the canon paper did produce great results (with the trial pack that came with the printer) but since i've got these other brands i want to figure out how to use them (at least until i run out of them).

i'll mess around a bit more with the settings and see what i can come up with. the i960 is such a superb printer that i am sure with a little ingenuity i can figure out how to make it print great on any medium, or is that too idealistic of a thought? ;)

[scottbergerphoto]

There are two different coatings for ink jet paper that determine the way the ink is held, one being ceramic and the other I believe is some type of porous material that swells. Not all Premium papers will work with all printers. Kodak paper will not work with my Epson 2200, even at Kodak's reccommended settings. New Girl, my advice to you since you indicated you are just starting out at this, is to use Canon paper and try the two major ways of color management; letting Photosop or PSE2 control the process (setting source and print space) and letting your printer control the process. Once you are comfortable that you can get good results on a consistent basis doing that, try different papers to your heart's content. That way you know whether it's you or the paper.
Just my advice. Let me know if that was too paternalistic.
Scott

[geoff@rio]

Usually using the printer manufacturers own brand of paper and more importantly their own ink gives the best results. Experiment only after you have used their recommended printer, paper, ink combinations and know them inside out. Initially it may cost more but the end results are more consistent.

[John_T]

Actually there are three basic kinds of paper.

Resin coated paper - This is probably the type of Kodak paper you are having trouble with. It absorbs ink more slowly, so if the ink is sprayed on it too quickly, it can't absorb it, so it puddles and gives you the speckles.

In the Canon printer interface, Canon i960 Properties, on the Main tab:

Media type > Photo Paper Pro
Print Quality > Custom > Set > move slider to 1 Fine

This will slow the printing down. If you still get speckles, forget the Kodak paper and dump it. I hear more complaints about this paper than any other.

Nanopourous paper - What Scott is talking about. Dries fast, but is subject to gas fading (air pollution). Has many advantages and one disadvantage.

Cast-coated paper - more disadvantages than advantages.

Go here and read the rest, realizing that the principles apply to most papers, but not all brands make it so easy to work out what is what. It's a billion dollar business and everybody wants the pig's share...

Ilford is the biggest manufacturer in the world.


http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/prod_html/galerie/htm/gtp/how_suits.htm

[mushedroom]

hey new girl...
So I use an Epson 820 and I have had amazing results with canon’s photo matte heavy stock paper…and it’s inexpensive too!!! 50pk – 9.99….another awesome option which is not as cheap, but the paper quality is amazing and it’s also the closest to real photostock is from Office Depot…it’s the Office Depot Glossy brand 100pk for 40.00 that’s my favorite paper to use and it gives the best results with my printer…
Hope this helps…

Rich

p.s.
how do you like your printer…have you done any black and white printing with it yet?
Let me know

Rich

[scottbergerphoto]

John_T wrote:
Actually there are three basic kinds of paper.

Resin coated paper - This is probably the type of Kodak paper you are having trouble with. It absorbs ink more slowly, so if the ink is sprayed on it too quickly, it can't absorb it, so it puddles and gives you the speckles.

In the Canon printer interface, Canon i960 Properties, on the Main tab:

Media type > Photo Paper Pro
Print Quality > Custom > Set > move slider to 1 Fine

This will slow the printing down. If you still get speckles, forget the Kodak paper and dump it. I hear more complaints about this paper than any other.

Nanopourous paper - What Scott is talking about. Dries fast, but is subject to gas fading (air pollution). Has many advantages and one disadvantage.

Cast-coated paper - more disadvantages than advantages.

Go here and read the rest, realizing that the principles apply to most papers, but not all brands make it so easy to work out what is what. It's a billion dollar business and everybody wants the pig's share...

Ilford is the biggest manufacturer in the world.


http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/prod_html/galerie/htm/gtp/how_suits.htm





Thanks for the additional information. I was reporting what I had read in Popular Photography. They had only mentioned two kinds of coatings. With regards to Kodak paper, I reduced the amount of ink and slowed my Epson 2200 down (hard to imagine it slower). That resulted in faded pictures. Anything close to normal speed or ink resulted in pictures with roller marks.
Scott

[John_T]

Right Scott. The difference with the Canon is that when you up the quality to 1 Fine, you move to a higher quality while lowering the print speed, so you won't be getting any fading. The thing also has five motors, so everything is under tight control. Even at 1 Fine the printer is still faster than almost any other.

I only remember having roller marks once, but I don't remember on what paper. Maybe HP. In any case, if I know all my settings are correct, and I get roller marks, speckles, bronzing or any other paper/ink based anomalies, that paper goes in the trash. It's not worth the frustration of trying to pull a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[new girl on the bloc]

thank you everyone for your time and energy to answer my questions.

Scott, no your information was not to "paternalistic". Thanks for taking the time to share it.

John, I will try your idea and see what I can come up with. I appreciate the clarification on the different types of paper; this helps me to understand what is happening. Re ilford paper, I've been looking at the galerie smooth as an option. any knowledge of this on a canon?

Rich, great deal on the canon matte paper. i'll find some. thanks for your suggestion.

[Longwatcher]

Slowing down the print speed by a bit, is probably why I have no problem with Kodak Paper usually.

HP paper is the stuff I have had the worst luck with, I wonder if I slowed the printer down to it's slowest, if this stuff would work at that point?

[ I get roller marks and streaks when ever I use this paper, otherwise it would be great for harsh environments ]

[new girl on the bloc]

mushedroom wrote:
hey new girl...
So I use an Epson 820 and I have had amazing results with canon’s photo matte heavy stock paper…and it’s inexpensive too!!! 50pk – 9.99….another awesome option which is not as cheap, but the paper quality is amazing and it’s also the closest to real photostock is from Office Depot…it’s the Office Depot Glossy brand 100pk for 40.00 that’s my favorite paper to use and it gives the best results with my printer…
Hope this helps…

Rich

p.s.
how do you like your printer…have you done any black and white printing with it yet?
Let me know

Rich


Rich, I've not printed any b&w photos yet. Still wondering on the inks for that.

[John_T]

I wouldn't wast my time with the HP papers Tim. HP seems oriented toward Disney colors and over definition for impact, but I feel they are basically faking it to wow the consumer point & shoot crowd. It appears their papers only really work with their inks, and I don't believe their longevity claims because many prints I have from my former HP printer have gone off after a few months.

[new girl on the bloc]

Success! I printed a photograph on the Kodak Ultima using the settings per your recommendation John, and the it turned out beautiful! Not so fortunate on the Fuji though, still lots of speckling.

Thanks again!

[bfaust]

I have had good photos using Red River Paper, try Redriver.com. I like their Ultra Pro Gloss. It is a cool white high gloss paper, but I have to set the printer at a minus 8 Magenta like they recommend. They will have the settings for each type of paper included in the box. (Last time I heard they have free shipping.)
There all shades of white paper and all types of surfaces that allow the different inks to act differently with the paper. Mix all that together and the best starting point is to use the settings the paper company recommends for your printer.

[dtrayers]

I was having great success with Ultima satin papers, but lately I've been getting speckling, especially in skin tones and dark greens.

I use the same settings John_T recommends.

I don't know if there's a change in the paper or if it's in my color management. Since getting a 300D I've been shooting exclusively in RAW and convering to the Adobe colorspace. I've also tried a profile for Ultima paper (glossy, not satin) generated with WiziWYG.

Still the prints were not as good as some of the prints taken six months ago with my Canon G3. I've also recently upgraded from PS Elements to PS CS. Maybe the color settings are off. I'm going to try converting to sRGB and letting the printer manage the color.

At any rate, I still get great results with Canon's Pro paper and with Epson Premium paper. I gave up printing our Christmas greeting photos on Ultima and switched to Canon Pro. It's too bad, because I really like the look and feel of the Ultima Satin paper.

With my New Year's bonus (as meager as it is...) I'm going to invest in a modest color calibration system for my monitor and printer.

It seems the consensus is that if you want the best results, you need to have a hardware profiled monitor and custom printer profiles for every paper/ink combo.

[John_T]

If you really want to see what you are doing and be able to figure out the whys and wherefores, colorimeter calibration and profiling is a must.

As for printing, you will only get reliable results if the printer/ink/paper are well matched to one another. When you are walking the edge with mismatched components, you can optimize the settings and get by with one photo, but the next may have color combinations, densities and other factors that make the print break out in speckles again. Unless you have old paper stock you are trying to use up, I can't see a reason to try forcing mismatches. You are only going to curse and get frustrated.

Having a calibrated monitor will also help you predict printing results.

[hawg]

I use Ilford paper with my i960 and it works fine for everyday prints. I get at it Sam's Club for $22 for 100 sheets.

for the one in a million shots I use Canon paper.

[John_T]

Right. I use Ilford, Tetenal and Canon with no problems and excellent results.

If you buy a BMW and then scrooge on gas, oil and maintainance, you aren't going to have much joy from driving it.

[KennyG]

I use Ilford Gallerie or Tetenal high gloss with my i950 (same engine as the 960) and the reults are excellent. I manage the print with Q Image which is one of the best investments you can make.

[John_T]

Oh! I didn't mention that the weather conditions where you live may make a big difference. If you have high humidity, the ink may not dry fast enough and speckle, blotch or run. If it is too dry you may get banding because the next print head pass doesn't blend with the last. If you live in LA with high air pollution you may get more gas fading. Et cetera, et cetera.

Before considering all factors, it's better not to reach hasty conclusions and blame paper, ink or printer. Sex is probably the only thing in life that comes close to satifying the most people under all conditions.