Shock and Disbelief (Advice needed)

[mbellot]

I never thought this would happen to me...

People have expressed an interest in buying my photos!?!?!

The shots are from a dance/tumbling show my six year old daughter was part of back in June. I took them more for personal reasons (memories and trying to work on my photography) than with the thought of selling them, but I did end up with a fairly decent cross section of the entire performance. I shot over 500 pics and ended up with ~ 200 PP.

All the PP is done (minus any non-4x6 cropping people might want), so my time has already been invested/spent.

Being a rank amateur hobbyist (too much credit really) I need to ask some advice on pricing. :oops:

I'm using CostCo for prints, my cost (before tax) breaks down to:

4x6: $0.17
5x7: $0.39
8x10: $1.49

I was thinking:

4x6: $1.00
5x7: $3.00
8x10: $5.00

I also put together a couple posters (20x30) that we gave to the studio owner/instructor along with a complete set of photos, which is what I think triggered the interest. She is really a great person and they photos/posters were a gift from our family to her.

My cost for posters is $15, so I thought $30 for each copy of either of the current posters (no further work needed) and $50 if someone wanted a "custom" poster with pictures of their choice.

My plan had been to put together a book (or two) of 4x6 "proofs" so everyone could see what they were getting. Most of the shots were @ ISO6400 equivalent (thank god for the 20D's noise performance), so there is some noise evident. ;)

Any advice? Am I over/under charging? Should I just forget it (too much headache)?

I'm sure I'm rambling, but I'm still fairly dumbstruck. :lol:

Thanks for your input!

Mods: If I'm in the wrong section please move the thread, but please let me know where it went.

[buffalophotographer]

way undercharging think about your time to get them to the lab and back and then to the customer.
4x6 $5
5x7 $10
8x10 $20
20x30 $100(lot of time invested)
I personally charge way more than this price for my prints though I print at a pro lab.

[c_j_ryan]

Keep in mind that whatever you decide to charge will set you price. Many years ago, I was blow away by a friend of mine wanting $50, for an 8x10, and he said "yeah, but if I get it, that's what I'm charging from now on"

[Fureinku]

way undercharging think about your time to get them to the lab and back and then to the customer.
4x6 $5
5x7 $10
8x10 $20
20x30 $100(lot of time invested)
I personally charge way more than this price for my prints though I print at a pro lab.

Agree, Its not just the supplies they are buying, think of a painting, the paint and canvas is maybe 10-20 bucks, the final result, hundreds for a good painting

So, they are paying for the artist, not the supplies

I would print at a pro lab as fell, mainly to ensure archival material is being used

You might also get more responses in the correct subforum, this is mainly body discussion

[mbellot]

way undercharging think about your time to get them to the lab and back and then to the customer.
4x6 $5
5x7 $10
8x10 $20
20x30 $100(lot of time invested)
I personally charge way more than this price for my prints though I print at a pro lab.

But are you a "pro"? Like I said in my original post, these shots were taken for my gratification - selling them never entered my mind.

I'm also a bit leery of setting too high a price and driving away all interest. The bulk of my "investment" has already been made, so (theoretically) any money made over print cost is found money.

Do you mind if I ask what your prices are for the kind/size of pics I'm talking about?


Do you watermark your prints? I'm torn over it, since I know how easy it is to duplicate pictures, but I've always felt it detracts just a bit from the photo...

[mbellot]

So, they are paying for the artist, not the supplies

Then at the prices I set I'm definitely overcharging. Second rate hack would be a compliment, artist is beyond comprehension.

I would print at a pro lab as fell, mainly to ensure archival material is being used

But then I would need to re-process all the photos since they were PP'd for the specific Noritsu printer at my local CostCo.

You might also get more responses in the correct subforum, this is mainly body discussion

Which one? None of the others seemed any better, and I did invite the mods to move the thread if its in the wrong area.

[Fureinku]

Dont watermark photos that were paid for, make a note on the back, but not on the image itself, defeats the purpose of paying for them

[mbellot]

Dont watermark photos that were paid for, make a note on the back, but not on the image itself, defeats the purpose of paying for them

Thank you!

Easy enough with Costco, they allow up to 30 characters of "extra" backprinting.

EDIT: I will be watermarking the "proofs", just in case. Besides, they are already done both with and without. :D

[Fureinku]

Thank you!

Easy enough with Costco, they allow up to 30 characters of "extra" backprinting.

EDIT: I will be watermarking the "proofs", just in case. Besides, they are already done both with and without. :D

Indeed always watermark proofs, ESPECIALLY digital proofs!

[chtgrubbs]

I decided not to offer 4x6 prints. I just offer 5x7. There is so little difference in actual size, most people will just order 4x6 and ignore the 5x7 option. Ok, if they ask for 4x6 I'll sell them one. At the same price as a 5x7. It's just not worth the hassle of ordering to make a couple of bucks per print.

I would charge at least triple your proposed price. I mean, isn't your art worth at least as much a two Grande Lattes?

[fivefish]

>The shots are from a dance/tumbling show my six year old daughter was part of back in June.

Congrats!

I shoot equestrian events that my daughter competes in. Other parents when they see me lugging my camera put their P&S away and tell me they'll just order pictures from my website. Then they just sit back, relax, enjoy the show. (Meanwhile, I'm out there doing the "work.")

I charge $10 a sheet. (1) 8x10 or (2) 5x7. I print them on my Epson R340 on Ilford glossy paper.

It's not unusual for parents to order hundreds of dollars worth of prints per event from me.

[cosworth]

I never sell an image in any form for less than $10.

I think you are undercharging at a buck. Anyone will pay 5-10 bucks for a good shot of their kid.

[Ray Marrero]

Someone once told me, "You know what you're worth."

If you think you are worth $1.00 then charge $1.00. I think my time, effort, investment in equipment and tiny, tiny wee bit of almost talent, is worth more. But that's just me.

[Mathiau]

iam in this same boat, recently i have been receiving alot of great priase about my "talent" and be told i should be offering my prints for sale.

Flattering feeling isnt it ?

[mbellot]

iam in this same boat, recently i have been receiving alot of great priase about my "talent" and be told i should be offering my prints for sale.

Flattering feeling isnt it ?

Flattering yes, but also extremely frustrating since I'm really not used to thinking about selling prints. Pretty much everything I've done has been for the enjoyment.

Recently I've had a couple comments about the quality of my shots and a few random "is that your job" from casual aquaintences, mostly the parents of my kids friends when I send them copies of pics I've take at the various birthday parties we attend. Just a little extra present for the family after the dust has settled from the festivities.

Its a weird sort of limbo, being good enough to impress others while at the same time knowing just how bad I really suck compared to some of the talent on this forum.

I actually like fivefish's approach. One cost, the customer decides how to break up the prints to fit on "sheets". It also helps guarantee a minimum dollar amount per order so I'm not messing around with a pile of nickel and dime orders.

I really appreciate the input. If anyone else wants to share their opinion I'd be glad to hear it.

[mbellot]

It sounds like you don't want the pressure or hassle of being a "pro". It's nice to shoot without worrying about clients hating images. I can see how charging just to cover your gas and print cost is appealing, since it still keeps you in the hobbyist category, but gives you a way to share your photos with others without giving them away.

Matthew, thats a great way of putting it. :D

This project has pushed me into needing to figure out something "professional" since its not practical to do what I've done in the past for sharing pics.

As a result I've gone out on a small financial limb... I put together a "proof book" with all the pictures printed @ 4x6, so my real cash investment is now ~ $50 (for prints + the album) plus two hours time to assemble/label everything. I wanted people to see what they are actually getting so there will be no quibbling later.

As long as your prices cover what you want, great. Keep in mind, you might find that having lower prices means more work. $5 isn't much for an 8x10, so you might get a lot more orders than you want to have to fill. But that's a better problem than no business, if you want business. You can always raise prices until you find the right balance.

I wasn't worried about "too much work", but after taking the time to assemble the proof book I am beginning to understand some of the overlooked costs.

I I wouldn't worry about the archival quality of the prints at Costco. I know my local Costco uses FujiColor Crystal Archive, so it should last. I know that all the inkjet vendors tout long-life and archival quality, but there aren't any 75 year old inkjet prints. I know I have more faith in the real world long-term survival of my Costco prints than what comes out of an inkjet (there's all sorts of things that can happen in the real world that might not get taken into account at a testing lab).

I'm not worried about CostCo prints. I've been printing there for a couple years and have been very happy with the quality. I don't use my inkjet printer anymore unless its an emergency - the costs are just too high.

I And don't stress out too much comparing yourself to others. I don't think there's anybody on the forums that compares to Dave LaChapelle, but it doesn't stop them from shooting and charging clients ;)

Not stressed, just trying to "find my place" in the price structure. I think my original prices are too low, but pretty much all the prices suggested are probably too high for the target audience (or maybe I'm the only cheap bastard in the crowd).

After thinking about it I'm leaning towards fivefish's $10/sheet model where one sheet can equal:

1 - 8x12 or 8x10
2 - 5x7
4 - 4x6

With the understanding that a "sheet" does not have to be multiples of the same image (you can get four different 4x6 prints on one sheet).

That puts my prices at 2.50 for a 4x6, 5.00 for a 5x7 and 10.00 for 8x10/12.

[Woolburr]

If a 4x6 isn't worth $5 to them...you are wasting your time.

[jameslcross]

Is this any help to you?

http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm

[Mathiau]

Its a weird sort of limbo, being good enough to impress others while at the same time knowing just how bad I really suck compared to some of the talent on this forum.



This is exactly how i feel, and i have told some people, i am crap compared to others.. but they just say they think i am good and at that level and that is all that matters.

[happilyariana]

After thinking about it I'm leaning towards fivefish's $10/sheet model where one sheet can equal:

1 - 8x12 or 8x10
2 - 5x7
4 - 4x6

With the understanding that a "sheet" does not have to be multiples of the same image (you can get four different 4x6 prints on one sheet).

That puts my prices at 2.50 for a 4x6, 5.00 for a 5x7 and 10.00 for 8x10/12.

I think that's a great way to go for your situation:)

[mdmedicgod]

if u charge it; they will pay.... The trick is to make the customer feel like the money was well spent. Anybody can get costco prints. (that wasn't a stab at costco). However, when I give someone a print from mpix on matte board. There jaws drop. Then I have no problem getting 20 bucks for a normal print

[MikeMcL]

i only have 1 thing to offer, i think all the rest has been said, and i agree for the most part.

You are crazy if you think an 8X10 is only worth 5 bucks.

dont sell yourself short. ( i can understand you not wanting to sell at pro prices for a number of reasons) but dont devalue the wonderful product you have.

an 8x10 frame costs like 12.99 or something at costco. your photo should cost at least this much.

best of luck.

[ErikAnderson]

Is this any help to you?

http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm

That website is for commercial/advertising/editorial rates. The pricing structure is not the same, nor is the format (pages/websites vs prints/posters). It is, however, great information for anyone needing pricing for magazines, corparate work, or anything to do with a commercial entity.

[ErikAnderson]

All the PP is done (minus any non-4x6 cropping people might want), so my time has already been invested/spent.


From a business standpoint, you need to recover that time spent.


Being a rank amateur hobbyist (too much credit really) I need to ask some advice on pricing. :oops:


If you insist on considering yourself a 'rank amateur hobbyist', then people will continue to pay you as such. :) As has been mentioned, you set your own value. There are talented starving artists and talented wealthy artists. Decide which fence you'd rather be on. ;)


I'm using CostCo for prints, my cost (before tax) breaks down to:
4x6: $0.17
5x7: $0.39
8x10: $1.49


..plus gas and depreciation on your vehicle, plus time, plus equipment costs, plus marketing expenses, etc ad nausem. No one can determine your costs but you. A quick way to determine your day rate: Take all the expenses you have for photography in a given year (equipment, cell phone, computer, software, rentals, advertising, etc) and divide that by the number of days you'll be shooting. That gives you what it COSTS you to shoot for a day. This is seperate from PROFIT and it will need to be added but only if you want to make any money at it. :)


I also put together a couple posters (20x30) that we gave to the studio owner/instructor along with a complete set of photos, which is what I think triggered the interest. She is really a great person and they photos/posters were a gift from our family to her.

My cost for posters is $15, so I thought $30 for each copy of either of the current posters (no further work needed) and $50 if someone wanted a "custom" poster with pictures of their choice.


Giving the posters to the studio was a smart move. It gets your work in from of the clients and gives you exposure (btw, this is an advertising expense and if you go forth with a business can be deducted). Again, your cost for the poster PRINT is $15, this doesn't even figure into your time for prep, delivery, pickup, etc.


My plan had been to put together a book (or two) of 4x6 "proofs" so everyone could see what they were getting.


Smart move. Shop the book to the parents. People will buy things that they can see and touch.


Any advice? Am I over/under charging? Should I just forget it (too much headache)?


See above. Yes, under. That depends. I wouldn't do what you are doing for the money involved. Photography is a 2nd business for me and if I'm not making 200% of what I during my day job, then it's not worth the additional equipment investment, and more importantly, time away from my family.

I don't see details of the class size, but if I can be allowed, I'll run a couple number scenarios. I figure on a 20-30% capture ratio, but it depends on venue, average income of the clients, and what type of event it is. Assuming 30 kids, 20%, that's 6 set of parents that will buy prints. 5x7 is pretty popular, so let's say they buy two each for a grand total of $36 in sales. After editing, uploading, picking up, packaging, for 3 hours and then delivering the images, are you going to be happy with working for $12/hr, GROSS? Your net will be lower and how much depends on some of the items mentioned above.

If you enjoy photography, then you should by all means take photos. If you want to be a profitable photographer, that's something entirely different and can't be answered in a single thread titled 'How much to charge'. :) Good luck.

[mbellot]

Well, since someone saw fit to drag this up from the dead I guess I can update everyone...

I settled on the following pricing:

4x6: $2.50
5x7: $5.00
8x10: $10.00
"MiniPoster" (12x18): $25
Full Size Poster (20x30): $50

I put together a 4x6 "proof" book of all 208 shots along with an order form and a brief "introduction" letter to let the other parents know what was going on. I'm now officially $50 in the hole, so lets hope somebody buys something. ;)

As a bonus "advertisement" the owner/instructor happened to be putting out her quarterly newletter and gave me about 1/6 of a page intro and kudos and also mentioned I was offering the pictures for sale at a very reasonable price.

This was her first recital as "the owner" of her own dance studio and she managed, in the rush of all the other things going on, to completely forget to get pictures (total count was four (4)!). I took them, did all the PP and then emailed her three weeks later with a link to all the pictures just as the oversight had really started to sink in... I think I instantly became her best friend. :oops:

Erik: As to class size, there were over 300 performers in the recital. Using your 20% and my updated pricing things don't look so bad (60 customers, two 5x7's each is $600). Its still less than my hourly rate at my day job, but its better than $36.

MikeMcL: $13 for an 8x10 frame? If my wife ever paid that much she wouldn't bother coming home. She found (very nice) 20x30 frames for $13 each after Michaels quoted us $160 each for two. She is the reigning queen of the bargain hunters.

Finally,

Don't let the pros convince you to take your enjoyable hobby and turn it into an unbearable business. :wink:

No worries there, after reading through some of the other threads in this forum I don't think I have the patience to do this full time. People aren't my strong suit, I get along much better with integrated circuits. :lol: