Nationwide Conference

[comandosvr]

I would like to here from togs who shoot conference level fooball here in the UK.
I know there are quite a few out there. some have aleady given me some very sound advice.
I have (almost) agreed with my local Sunday paper to shoot the local football and rugby games when they travel away from home. Southern conference and National Division 1.

Before, I have worked with no pressing deadlines, but this venture is another level for me.
If I am on the south coast or the west country there is no chance of driving back in time.

What deadlines do you all work to? Ift he game finshes at 4.45pm, how long do you have to get your images back to your editor? do you e-mail them?
do you take them back?

What are the facilities like at this level of ground for e-mailing images.
can I simply plug my laptop into their connection, if they have one, what if they don't?

Lots of questions I know, I'm sure it would be interesting to hear every one's different stories and maybe I can learn from you all.

Thanks
Phillip

[markgardner]

Phillip

If you refer to Gav's Q&A session there was some discussion about this in there including details of wireless access etc.

I think I'm right in saying every McDonalds is now a wireless hotspot as is every Starbucks. Pop in for 'supper' and sort your pics at the same time.

Mark

[LMP]

Hi Phil,

Your best bet if it's going to be regular paid wrok is to invest in a 3G card. Venues will differ in what facilities are on offer (if any). The last thing you will want is to get stuck should any planned options backfire on you.

Maccy D's do have BT Openzones but IIRC you need to pay to use them,just checked ..an hour costs £6. There are other options such as Nintendo & The Cloud but they all work on the same basis.

If you do get a 3G card it may be worthwhile in sorting out a backup plan. My 3G failed last Saturday, I didnt have a backup but fortunately a colleague helped me out.

My deadline is 5.30-6.00pm but it can vary. My normal method of wiring is to ftp them across but check with your publication how they want it done.

Hopefully some of this will help ?

[joetothphoto]

A 3G card is a must if you ar wiring from deadline away from home. I have a 7pm deadline, but rarely ever go past 6pm depending on the coverage I have with my 3G. Learn to use your phone as modem if you can...

Get your workflow sorted before a game, dont decide 15 minutes prior you want to try something different. You will get burnt!

Mae sure you get your teamsheet and know how the paper wants their captions. Find out if they want a particular player or coach. I'll often ask what way they might print the images, Horizontal or Vertical.

Hmm, can't think of anything else. Yeah, not only are you a photographer when working for a newspaper you are a businessman, don't get taken advantage of. Make sure you practice good invoicing with the paper. If they don't pay...

Joe

[Rich_claypole]

Following on from this I have just posted this in the Equipment section:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2041448#post2041448

Anyone care to share their experiences, basically looking for feedback on datacard coverage from different networks etc.

[comandosvr]

A big THANKS to all of you who gave advice on this one.

I will almost certainly go down the 3G route. I currently use a DELL laptop. does any one else use these with the 3G card with/without problems?

Although the signal is not 100% certain in some areas, it seems the nearest thing at this moment in time. When you talk about backup, do you mean Wi-Fi hotspots or is there another option out there?

Thanks again lads.

I'm sure that I will be searching you brains again soon!!

PHILLIP.

[joetothphoto]

Wi-Fi is a possibility but you'll only find that in some stadiums/grounds at the upper levels. Using your mobile phone as a modem is a good backup.

Joe

[comandosvr]

Thanks joe, I will practise using my phone this way.

I have another question with which I need you expertise.

I have a meeting on Manday to discuss£££££ with the sports editor.

What kind of figure can I expect to earn, I don't want to pitch to high or him to pay me to little.
I don't expect you to tell what you get , just an idea is all I need.
do you get a set figure for each game/image or does it vary?
Do you include travelling expenses or is this included?

Many thanks
phillip

[KIPAX]

I was recently advised that the best policy is to ask them what they pay. Sounds like a plan to me. after all they will know what they pay others now or in the past.

[joetothphoto]

KIPAX, good advice. But he will still need to know what the going rate is. I have seen to many editors screw a shooter because they are new and don't know the rates. If he really wanted to go in with all the knowledge, the NUJ has a listing of going rates for differet type of work at different size papers. Then we would know the rate that should be paid as opposed to an editors idea.

Joe

[KIPAX]

I have seen lists of rates for papers and websites and to be honest they make me laugh. some I have seen look more like a wish list. Also i think (not sure) that areas would differ. I am guessing a London paper would pay more than a lancashire village paper even with the same sales figures.

A better idea would be for all the UK footy photographers to get together and list.. or come up with a set fee.. But I can't see that ever happening :)

Also I fear it's a buyers market at the moment. too many photographers to go around..

[joetothphoto]

True,

I saw a list that broke it down into circulation and what it should pay. The important thing is that he goes in there knowing what should be paid. I would hate to see him get only 50% of the going rate. I know that myself and a few others are very open to the idea of discussing rates. But in the end, if people continue to give away stuff for free then the going rate will be 0 one day. I just found out that the team tog for my local club does it for free. WTF! So much for wanting to be a club photographer one day.

Joe

[KIPAX]

Everything I do for the club is free. I am a stanley fan first and a photographer second. then webmaster third... also it comes from doing it non league where everyone does everything for free.. program editor, stewards, kit man, photographers... the team progresses but most of us are still doing it for free..

However I supply two papers in my home town area and both pay different rates because one is daily and one is weekly.

I think someone local (or at least that side of country) should PM him and give him an idea.. I have a feeling no one likes actually listing prices on here.

to step back one... do other club photographers get paid then? esp at the lowest level?

[Rich_claypole]

Joe,

I was working for Reading for free for a few seasons, weell not really for free as the experince I got you couldn't buy, but free from a renumeration perspective.....Only this season that I am on a retainer as such, so am guarenteed income from every game I cover. There are also other bits that increase the revenue from each game, like the commercial shots after the game, sales to local papers, pics used in mechandising, any commercial opportunities that come up I get first refusal. If I decided not to do it someone else would come along and do it for free. What I now need to do is increase my value with the club so when they set the budget for next season more may be set aside for photography. So I need to be looking more closely at match rates, what the agencies offer clubs as packages, what it would cost to bring in a pro-level tog on a freelance basis if I didn't do it etc. So sometimes opportunities which on the surface do no look too good, when you get in there other opportunities open up!!! I think they call it a loss-leader, make a loss on something you do, knowing that more will come out of it in the long run.

[Rich_claypole]

I never got anything when I was covering Bracknell Town, only from what I made from sales to local papers which wasn't a lot. Need to find out the rates the NLP pay to cover games!

[comandosvr]

Thanks everyone.
it seems that this is a touchy subject.

I now have an idea of what I should be getting thanks to Joe.
I should point out that I will be shooting for 2 local papers and not the club, but I don't really know if I should let the club use the images for free.

maybe a list of national set prices is a good idea.

also I should point out that they tried to get me to do it for free. I nearly gave in to pressure but thanks you your advice, said no and things worked out ok.

Regards
Phillip

[KIPAX]

Yes Rich there are the hidden extras at the club ..:) eg : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180030695606

[joetothphoto]

Rich,

I understand what you are saying. As always the problem is giving images away for free and setting up future photographers for failure. You have a good situation at reading and I am very envious. As far as a particular clubs tog not getting paid... do you think that club will ever pay when he decides to quit, the same goes for the other clubs in my area. I also know that shooters send their pics from away matches in to the locals so freelancing is out of the question. It is an ugly trend. I have no problems discussing rates, but you'll run into several problems. One of them being people using that info and undercuting you to get the job. But like Gavin has said, that person will eventually screw-up and the newspaper or agency will come crawling back to you.

Joe

[Rich_claypole]

I have always taken the stance from a newspaper perspective that if they sell their paper then they can buy the images, if it is a free local paper then I may consider supplying at a much reduced rate or free. this happend with a local paper a few years ago, I was already supplying one paper and a second paper wanted my images but would not pay, normal excuse, no budget for it. so I told them, the day you start giving your papers away for free I will consider giving you images for free, but as long as you are charging for your publication then you are in a position to pay for the images....Needles to say I have not supplied them!!!!


Like any business people want a service as cheaply as posisble, so if people can do things for free then they are the preferred option. It's not a situation which is going to get any better. The digital revolution has opened up this type of work to thousands more people than would have attempted it 5 years ago. Maybe you need to talk to smaller clubs and talk to them about the advantages of having a club phoographer, what the beneftis to them will be. It should not be just about "oh, you can have match photo's to use". How can the images be used to promote the club, make money for the club and yourself, promote yourself, are there youth teams associated with the club that need team pics, individual pics that parents may buy (get exclusivity to these opportunities). What about producing a calendar unique to the club from the images you get for them etc?

[Rich_claypole]

If clubs aren't prepared to pay is it the people supplying them for free that are setting future togs up for failure, or the clubs themselves indicating there isn't a market at certain levels.

Maybe clubs will look to pay when people leave that are currently working for free...maybe they won't. People must be getting something out of the relationship they have with the clubs. Take Kipax for example, serveral ways of making money from his relationship with the club although they don;t pay him directly.

Best thing to do is to talk to the clubs, find out if they would pay for the services of a quality tog. Are your results better than those being supplied for free, do the club need better images?

[joetothphoto]

Rich

Here, Here! All of the above opportunities that you mention have been dished out to togs and they do it for free.

All three of the clubs are like this, at least in this area.

Good advice for others starting out though.

Joe

[markgardner]

There was mention of the NLP above. Judging by some of the images in there my suspicion is that many of the games are not covered by paid photographers but they are using anything that they can get for some games, blurry, grainy, heavily cropped, so much so that sometimes the pics are worthless. I know some of the guys on here are supplying quality images, they know who they are, so please don't take offence.

[joetothphoto]

Mark, that game at Stevenage I was forced to use 3200. I am so sorry! No I know what you mean. I think it is one of the issues of having a paper cover so many games at a lower league. Getty, Action or PA isn't everywhere. Some of the togs are absolutley brilliant and when I see the blurry or grainy images I just want to cringe. One side note: to my knowledge all of the togs who cover games are paid the going rate to submit images. Now I must admit that on several occasions I have been at a game to shoot stock or work on my university portfolio while an NLP shooter is there and had my stuff used at a later date for a reprint, so it can happen.

Joe

[markgardner]

Joe

'One side note: to my knowledge all of the togs who cover games are paid the going rate to submit images.'

That's 'interesting', them using images like that, and paying for them, devalues the titles such as 'published sports photographer'.

Another concern is that the blurry ones make front page too!!!

Just being grumpy tonight!

[KIPAX]

I don't supply the NLP. I am not at business stage.. this isn't my living.... people want my pictures and I make money.. But if I supply the NLP then I am taking money away from people who are trying to make a living and I wont do that.. The local papers photographers are on wages and all hate doing football and everyone is happy with me freelancing the local papers

Saying that... every club has a photographer as far as I am aware.. why ahve the NLP not done a deal with clubs instead of hiring freelancers... seems odd to me.

[joetothphoto]

Mark,

No worries about being grumpy. Its not the first time that question has been brought up.

Kipax,

I understand what your saying. My bottom line is that once you start taking money as a business, you have to consider that photography is no longer a hobby but a business and if it is not handled that way people will be out of business really quickly. Rich has brought up some very good points and hopefully people take that to heart.

Joe

[KIPAX]

I agree and all worth discussing...:)

Each photographer has different goals and requirements.. I doubt I will ever do this for a living.. in fact I know I wont. But I have unbridled passion and drive for what I am doing.. I just can't stop going to and photographing sporting events (99% football) it's been 5 years now I think and I still want to go to a match a night. I take the pics and people then want them.. or don't... But I just want to do it so much and love it... Quite happy to sit in the cold and rain at some non league match waiting for somehting exciting to happen and snap :)

I have reached nearly all my sports photog targets.. i am now working toward the local paper using me for championship and premiership matches next as Blackburn and Burnley are a stones throw away and covered by them. (when not clashing with stanley fixtures of course)

If I tell the club I want paying and they say no.. I am sure there are many wannabe sports photographers ready to jump into my shoes at the drop of a hat... they will do it for free.. thats the biggest problem... I am sure other club specific photographers think along the same lines... Y/N ?

[Rich_claypole]

As you say, some of the club photogrpahers may not be full time, may not be equipped to wire in images by the deadlines etc. My experience of working for a couple of clubs now is it is easier than for those working for papers, there are deadlines, but not as aggressive as images being in 20mins in to the game and again at half time then straight after the final whistle, I can take my time, takes the pressure off.

Have tried to get work from the NLP for a number of years and never had any luck. Had a call from them a few weeks ago, out of the blue asking if I was available to cover Maidenhead Utd, gave me great pleasure in telling them I was working with RFC covering Premiership games so would be unavailable that weekend. Maybe a little bitter on my part, but I do like it when people respond after requesting to view your work, so when you hear nothing it hacks me off a little, bit of common curtesy is nice :)

On a further note I approached one of the larger sports agencies this week as I am seriously looking to switch career and get away from IT and do something I actually enjoy. Makes sense for me to supply pics to agencies if I am covering all the games and the quality is at a sensible standard (assumed). Anyway had a good chat with them an it will not be possible for me to supply this particular agency with RFC pics a this time due to my agreement with RFC. The agecny would want full copyright to the images for syndication, this relates to the agreements that have with the national press and other clients. The only way this could work would be for me to work for the agency and they provide RFC with the images for free, I would get a fee from the agency, we at least that is what I thing they were suggesting. This would mean I would lose the revenue from supplying the local papers and also from supplying other sources. Maybe this is why people like the NLP don't use club photographers due to where the copyright lays! May just be they are missing a trick.

Howeverr the agency has suggested I send some more samples of my work in as I should be able to cover non RFC games and possible other sporting events.

Slowly building up the togging side of things so maybe sooner rather than later I will be in a position to decide my next career move....Anything has to be better than working in the City like I am at the moment!

[markgardner]

An IT carrer in the city, I was delighted the day I managed to ditch one of those!!!

[joetothphoto]

Rich,

That is true what you say about the deadlines and such.

I'd be curious to know which agency you have contacted. I have contacted several local agencies and they all seem keen at first but for some reason they all send the same email back telling me they will keep my numbers on file. I think it has something to do with the fact that I start to ask questions baout shoting on spec and fees.

Joe

[markgardner]

Maybe we should start our own agency/co-operative!!! ;-)

[joetothphoto]

My other problem is that I have two years left in the US Air Force and I would like to make a smooth transition into something reliable in photography. I am finding it tough because of the current market and the innability to dedicate all my freetime to shooting. I think in October I can cover 13 events and I am so jazzed about that. Some months its less and I feel bad when I get asked what I'm shooting and I have to say i'm working. I''m trying to find something to do on the 6th of October, anyone have any ideas?

Joe

[KIPAX]

I work in IT and the only time I have to go to london is brain stormers and thats usualy in redbus or telehouse. That started as a hobby and fun.. then changed to work and less fun and now to the point of boring... That does make me wonder about making photography a career. I would hate to one day look back and wonder where the fun went. But thats not the only reason ...

[KIPAX]

Maybe we should start our own agency/co-operative!!! ;-)

Don't laugh too much.. It crossed my mind... was going to use my domain www.footballpics.co.uk (http://www.footballpics.co.uk) and start a library.. give all the media outlets a login and record any pics downloaded and charge accordingly.. ask other photographers to submit there pics to the library and there ya go...

Why didn't I ? can't remember.. still an idea :)

[Rich_claypole]

Oh so you have footballpics.co.uk.....I was afte that a few years ago and had to settle on footballpics.net....you know it you were on the forums once!!!

Seems the best way to go, I think people would be more open to talk to organisations which have more resources than a single tog i.e. on your own. Considered it myself a few years ago, target local papers, give then, get amateurs in , giving them the opportunity to progress...all about economies of scale. The big boys have the elite of sport covered in the UK, there is huge potential the further down you go. From expeience I tend to find a lot of the togs which work for local papers (hope i don't upset anyone here) do not specialise in sport, sport is just something else they cover, most of them don't have a real interest. It is also common for the local rags togs to spend 20 mins at a football game then shoot of over town to cover a rugby match, so often they don't get key action.

Always opportunities out there, just a case of expoiting them. An agency to supply togs to local papers for coverage of sporting events...got potential!

[KIPAX]

I did wonder Rich cus I only got the domain AFTER visiting your website. must have lapsed after you looked :)

The library thing has potential as I can program and make it so togs can upload there pics and catagorise ect and media can search and download.. they would ahve to use there own unique number to access the original image and you then charge that media outlet for the pic wether they use it or not.. togs could upload immediatly after an event.. there could be an alert system that then notifies the media that pics have been added from xxx event..

Also do you need some sort of licence to setup something like this in media circles.. how do you become a recognised agency blah blah..


Whats everyone else think.. goer of an idea or?

[Rich_claypole]

No idea, hard work I guess, gradually building up a set of clients and expand that way.

If you are a good coder, I assume PHP and MYSQL? I saw a bit of S/W a few months ago called pixwire. Basically, via a WEB browser you upload your images to the WEB server. Then on the WEB server through the interface wire samples to the picture desks, or links etc, can be via e-mail or FTP. The advantage of this is once the pics are uploaded they can be sent to many destinations very quickly. Editors can them download full sizedd versions of the images they want and you then invoice based on what is downloaded and by who.

Sounds pretty similar to what you have suggested.

[KIPAX]

yes thats sorta the idea.. just no need to build up media clients.. you just send them all the info. I started with perl many years ago.but now php and yes mysql.. in fact just about everyhting I do revolves around mysql nowerdays. I was doing web development when the WWW started (not the internet.. the WWW) .. No I don't make websites. I make the bits people can't see that amkes websites work :)

So I ahve the expertise.. do I ahve the bottle... well not at the moment and interest seems poor so..

[comandosvr]

I have been reading all of your comments with great interest.
I can update you all as to what happened at my meeting with 1 of the sports editors of my local paper.

they were very excited that I had the technology to wire back images from away games which is unheard of to them. They were very keen to take me on.
I went to there office to be told the editor was not available and they had decided to cancel their offer..... Unless I would do it for free.

It was very tempting, because 15 images published then I coulld apply for a league license. But looking at all of your comments it will certainly screw up the next togs chances, so i told them (not very) politly where to stick there offer. But I am 99% sure that they will find no one else to cover away games for them.

Maybe they will come back at a later date, maybe not, but I feel better for not giving to their pressure. Although no doubt it will almost certainly harm my chances of actually gatting a foot into the business.

It makes me feel better when I look at their images on a Sunday and seen them out of focus, grainy under/over exposed.

I have to see 1 more sports editor monday. see how that goes. let you know

Phillip

[gmen]

It was very tempting, because 15 images published then I coulld apply for a league license.You need to show invoices/remittance advices for those 15 images when applying for the Licence - i.e. you need to prove you have been paid for them. So you certainly did the right thing.

---- Gavin

[KIPAX]

But looking at all of your comments it will certainly screw up the next togs chances, so i told them (not very) politly where to stick there offer. But I am 99% sure that they will find no one else to cover away games for them.

Thats very brave of you. you just shut the door on an opening into the business.. lots started for free and worked up to being paid... As for screwing up the next togs chances... how are you doing that if they are not paying?

They will simply use photographs supplied by the away teams local paper on a swap per match basis until someone else comes along who will do it for free....

and believe me that someone else will come along.

People might not like what I have just posted... but back in the real world :(

[markgardner]

I had an approach from a local paper in Morecambe who played Grays Athletic last weekend asking if I could supply them some images.

"Of course I said, I'll sort some samples for you to look at"

"Before we get into that I need to know if you charge for them"

"Yes of course I do", I said.

"I'll need to check with the editor and come back to you", comes the reply.

I duly e-mailed a link to a small gallery of sample pics to the enquirer. A while later a reply comes back, "can you tell me how much you charge?"

I'd made enquries with another sports photographer known to us all as to a sort of ball park to be expected and went back with the price.

The reply, "we don't pay more than £10 per image to freelancers".

The result, they aren't using my pictures in their paper.

So, what do people think, was I wrong or right? How should I/would you have considered the situation?

- £10 per image is better than nothing?
- £10 per image is an insult and barely worth the effort of raising an invoice for, especially if they only want one image?
- £10 per image at least gives you a tearsheet?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Mark

[KIPAX]

up north.. thats about right for a local weekly paper.. but if its a daily local paper then should be more.. I will PM you :)

[joetothphoto]

Tough call. I suppose you should check with other togs who have shot for the paper via freelance and see what they were paid.

As far as turning down the paper, you did the right thing. Full stop. Anyone who disagrees should go over to sportsshooter.com and look-up some of the comments about working for free. Working on Spec is one thing...

Joe

[joetothphoto]

Mark, in the end it is entirely up to you. You should do the match and ask if that 10 pounds per image is going to cover liability insurance, mobile/data transfer rates, gas, car insurance, parking, gear insurance. These are the things you need to look at when working freelance and find the right balance of jobs to cover everything.

[KIPAX]

Thats proper good advice if there expecting you to do the match for them.. But supposing your already there doing the match for someone else.. they want 3 pics for 30 quid.. there already on your HD and all you have to do is email them.. quick 30 quid for pics you already had.. What advice then ?

[joetothphoto]

I guess that depends on your agreement with the other paper and what sort of rights the other paper wants. But gman might know the exact wording, but if the NLP assigns me to a game there might be a conflict if Cambridge Evening News wants pictures.

Joe

[KIPAX]

I agree could be a conflict and I have been told that papers rather like to be exclusive when paying... I wasn't suggesting same pics.. I do 2 papers and give them different pics.. even if it's a close run thing between drive mode frames:) The club program tends to be last in que and will print anything thats already been printed.. and of course everything goes on my website same day.. my website is top of the pile and gets the lot..

But if mark already has the pics (different to the ones already commisioned for) would you say sell them for a tenner each or say no?.. I would see it as an extra 30 quid for a couple of minutes work..

[joetothphoto]

Again, Gavin has directed me on this subject before and I dont see the exact phrase in the League License paperwork but I'll keep looking.

Joe

If youuse the accreditation request form when applying for a photo pass it states that you must make clear all destinations for your work. So I am assuming you would need to know your going to sell your photos to newspaper x.

[KIPAX]

I had no idea you where refering to the licence joe... somehting in there eh?.. I see now..all becomes clear what your on about :)

[joetothphoto]

But if I believes this applies if a paper or agency gets you a credential. If you apply for a pass under your league license it may be different on who you can submit images too.

[KIPAX]

yes.. if you go to a match under the local papers licence then they have copyright to all the images and not you... same if you go under your clubs licence then the club have copyright and not you.. the only way you can provide multiple people is if you have your own licence...

or as in my case..i am under the clubs licence.. but the club have given me full control over there pictures and I can decide who/where they go to... but then I have an ultra exellent relationship with my club :)

So I guess it depends who has the copyright.. what licence being used or who has ultimate control of the pics. does that all sound about right? :)

[joetothphoto]

With the NLP I keep all rights. CEN I hand them over, anyone else it is done on a pic by pic basis.

Joe

[KIPAX]

Just remebered we are talking conference.. I am under the clubs licence for league but have my own personal licence for the conference so can do what I want within the licence limitations.. there my pics :)

[joetothphoto]

I am talking league as well as conference.

[KIPAX]

Wouldn't one football licence for all leagues/comps be nice :)

[joetothphoto]

Well, essentially it is the same licensing process. I could have checked I want a PL license as well as a league and it would be the same number. I don't you guys realise how lucky you are over here to have a licensing system, in America there are a lot more people on sidelines than need to be.

Joe

[comandosvr]

Mark
I think that you were right to turn down the paper offer. It is exactly what I told the paper who wanted me to do the images for free.
The cost of shooting 1 game without being paid is expensive. I don't know evreyone else'e sitiuation but I have 2 little one's at home and a fairly low income, and the reason I went into this was to bring extra income into the house.
the cost of a data card, monthly tariff, petrol, car parking, and lots of other things make it impossible for me to do it for nothing. If I were to travel to devon, the south coast or up north then I would cost maybe £50-80 per game. how can I justify that.

my meeting with the 2nd paper went similar to the first, they really wanted the images but where not willing to pay, not even travel expenses.
I took along a portfolio and they were very impressed. they agreed that they were much better than their staff togs.
but they just don't have the budget, apparently. not quite sure what my next move is.

Phil

[joetothphoto]

I think you've done the right thing as far as away games go. You should never go into the red without any chance of making money down the road. Especially for Conference football. I'll give you a great example: I few weeks ago I drove up to Ipswich to cover the England U21 game on spec. I paid for te cost of petrol and that was all. The best I image I got from the evening was Theo Walcott celebrating his first goal for England, albeit the U21's. Now there is potential for this image down the road. But I really wouldn't do that for conference football as their isn't that great of a market.

Joe