What makes a pro a pro?

[WhatEyeSee]

I am courious to hear from the Pros as to when a Pro becomes a Pro? I do not consider myself a one yet. Just becaue I have a business licence to sell my services, does not mean I am a "professional" I do not feel that i have yet earnd that title.

Maybe it is me, maybe not, but I don't take that title to lightly, and am bothered when my friends introduce me as a professional photographer.

I do however conduct myself as a professional and hold high standards to my work.

I have just began my photography business the begining of this year, basically out of demands for my services. So I figured I would take the plung and invest in a 30D and use this as a tax right off and see where it leads me.

So far it has been great. Just by one person I have had over 35 additional clients, and actually of my shoots are from referals.

Thanks.

[IndyJeff]

I do however conduct myself as a professional and hold high standards to my work.


That right there pretty much says it all.

[kampphoto]

Oh boy here we go again with this debate.... please please please lets not start this again.

[WhatEyeSee]

Thanks IndyJeff.

Kampphoto - Debate?? no-debate here - I just want to know for my own self. - So what about you? When was your turning point from photographer to "professional?"

What would your advice be to somone one wanting to turn pro?

Guess I will also search the threads to see what I can find.

Thanks.

[Steve Parr]

Shouldn't be long before you're given the dictionary definition of "professional". That's meaningless to me.

For me, above all else, a "pro" is someone who conducts himself in a professional manner. Someone can have the best gear in the world, take the best photos, and earn mountains of money. If he doesn't conduct himself in a professional manner, he's a hack, and nothing more.

Likewise, I think someone can be a "pro" and not earn a dime...

[WhatEyeSee]

Well I just found the "debate" thread... I see what you mean Kamp. I just don't want to be misslead people or have them I am something more than I am not. I would rather tell them I am a semi-pro (gee is that still used) and think of my work being great, than say I am pro and they think..humm really??

I am really humble when people complement my work and introduce me as a professional photographer. I don't try to make myself something more than I am, but let my work speak for itself.

I hope to one day get to that "turning" point to where I consider myself as such.

Yes - I know the deffinition of "professional" but I also think it means something else when it pertains to a professional artist.

I guess it is a mixture of knowledge, talent, & conduct.

[MHP]

hope to one day get to that "turning" point to where I consider myself as such.


don't know if that ever happens to a pro

am really humble when people complement my work and introduce me as a professional photographer. I don't try to make myself something more than I am, but let my work speak for itself.

thats where it is at.

I guess it is a mixture of knowledge, talent, & conduct.

that sounds about right.

then after the pro there is 'master'. There are many 'pro photographers' out there, but very few masters. 'pro photographer' to me has some backlash to it, anyone can 'say' they're a pro, but who's got the confidence to say they're a master! and if they agree that they are one then they aren't one. best to aspire, but to never succeed, not while alive anyway..... isn't that the tall poppy syndrome?.

[Seefutlung]

*sigh* "The Debate"

A "professional" does not equate to making money (that is an accounting term). A professional, in this case photography, is one with the knowledge, skill and experience to consistantly, day-in and day-out, get the exceptional shot ... the defining moment (period). A professional has the respect of his/her peers (other "professionals").

Gary

[MHP]

the debate... human nature


want to see an absolutely stunning portfolio?, one that will blow your mind in terms of 'professional photographer'. One that shows the power of creativity in composition and light? one that has that 'oomph' factor? and gives you something to aspire to as a photographer? then check out Gary's(Seefutlung- above post) site. It just totally blew me away! Queen Mary portoflio is stunning.

[snapzz]

This is probably the most debated topic on any forum. Recently it caused one UK forum to close!
Ask 100 people this question and you'll get 100 different answers (especially if they are a full time/part time mix).A full time pro would probably say "someone who earns his living from photography" A part timer would say "Someone who produces a constant high level of quality images".In fact a true pro is both of those and more! He has to be a businessman, accountant, marketing genius and (sometimes) man manager too. What he wont do is.........work for free or sell his images at a ridiculously low price!

For anyone just starting out my one piece of advice is organise your price list. Do your market research on other pro's prices . Make your pricelist competitive but not too low. Remember this will be your living. I hear of too many people who would say they would love to be full time but cannot earn enough to live on. Charging a £1 or a $1 a print just because your starting is not doing yourself any favours. Start as you mean to go on and that should be to build a successful business.

Good Luck

[jameslcross]

Oh boy here we go again with this debate.... please please please lets not start this again.

It's a forum, a place of discussion :rolleyes:

[Moments]

look at it this way.

Do you know how to do electrical work,i.e. running wire and switches? Do you know how to build a wall? Do you know how to install plumbing? Do a tuneup on your car or have you done any of these things for others and possibly received payment for your services?
I have a friend that owned an auto service station. I used to work on the weekends for him. I did every job that anyone else did in the station, but I do not consider myself a auto mechanic. Just someone who knows how to work on cars and made money from it.

I'm a commercial photographer and also a wedding photographer, I do commercial photography 2-3 days a week and run my wedding studio 7 days a week. My only income comes from photography. The amount of income from each is almost equal. I have friends that are commercial photographers and do a few( 2-3) weddings a year, which does not make them wedding photographers in my book.

[cosworth]

I pay my rent with photography. I consider myself a pro. I don't take spectacular shots, but I take shots I make my "profession" from.

It's not hard to understand that part of the word. For me a pro is anyone who makes their living with it.

[Seefutlung]

... He has to be a businessman, accountant, marketing genius and (sometimes) man manager too. ..
Good Luck

I considered myself a professional, yet I was never a businesman, accountant, marketing genius or manager ... I was a photo journalist working for newspapers and wire services.

Gary

[fivefish]

For me a pro is anyone who makes their living with it.

That's my definition too.

Just wan to add, for me, a "semi-pro" is someone who gets paid for some jobs, but photography is not their main source of income.

It's got nothing to do with how great your pictures or, or how lacking compared to other people.

But if other people are willing to pay you money, then your pictures must be good. Otherwise, they wouldn't even be thinking of hiring you.

[Seefutlung]

the debate... human nature


want to see an absolutely stunning portfolio?, one that will blow your mind in terms of 'professional photographer'. One that shows the power of creativity in composition and light? one that has that 'oomph' factor? and gives you something to aspire to as a photographer? then check out Gary's(Seefutlung- above post) site. It just totally blew me away! Queen Mary portoflio is stunning.

Thanks Mark ... you are way too kind ... (but I will relish in the compliments anyway.)

Gary

[rhys]

"professional" just means what you do for a living. It has nothing to do with being an expert.

[Seefutlung]

That's my definition too.

Just wan to add, for me, a "semi-pro" is someone who gets paid for some jobs, but photography is not their main source of income.

It's got nothing to do with how great your pictures or, or how lacking compared to other people.

But if other people are willing to pay you money, then your pictures must be good. Otherwise, they wouldn't even be thinking of hiring you.

Disagree ... At the Queen Mary there was an employee taking photos of visitors ... didn't know a thing about his camera or settings ...is he a professional??? He is making his living through photography.

Selling a photo is all about marketing ... the capability to "consistantly" capture an exceptional image, regardless of circumstances ... now that's all about being a professional.

Professional ... is/should be ... a rating of expertise, knowledge and experience not an accounting term.

Gary

[cosworth]

True Gary but that person doesn't think of themselves as a photographer I bet.

I'll admit it. I'm a hack. I take pics at a resort all day. I do some weddings, lots of honeymoon shoots, some outside work (school portraits) , tons of sports photography. I sell a LOT of snapshots. I am the guy at the Queen Mary in many ways. But I know enough to take some great shots and I consider myself a pro photographer. Are there amateurs betters than me. Hellllll yes.

[jameslcross]

"professional" just means what you do for a living. It has nothing to do with being an expert.


Good call!

[snapzz]

I was a photo journalist working for newspapers and wire services.

mmm.....sorry missed out the section unless employed or contracted as a photographer

[Seefutlung]

... and I consider myself a pro photographer. Are there amateurs betters than me. Hellllll yes.

It not what you call yourself ... it is how your peers think of you.

Once again, the biggest difference between a pro and a non-pro (in my book) is consistancy. One can bet that when a "pro" shoots something (an assignment, a wedding, a product, et al) he/she will come back with exceptional, pro quality photos.

Anybody can get an exceptional photo every now and then ... it is the professional that can get them whenever he/she so chooses (or at least most of the time when he/she so chooses ... expertise, knowledge and experience tends to eliminate/reduce the 'luck' factor).

Gary

[calicokat]

Alot of people think that if you make money you are a pro. True to some extent, but I think your quality of work makes you what you are

[SmuckerS2]

i always understood that a 'pro' is one who gets paid for what he does. maybe it's too genralized for these times.

[kampphoto]

It's a forum, a place of discussion :rolleyes:

Yes it is a place of discussion... this has been debated many times since I became a member less then a year ago, and it usually turns into a giant mess with people getting pissed off at each other, then the thread gets locked, then it comes up again a few months later.

Personally I see a pro as someone that acts with a high standard. Someone that creates photographs for pay. I don't think you specifically need to make your full living from just one source to be a professional. Personally I work as a full time master control operator for one of the largest television networks in Canada, I also shoot 25 weddings a summer and other side projects, and I consider myself a pro regardless that I make money somewhere else other then photography. I think to be a pro, you have to have customers that pursue you to hire you for your services because they know they will receive a product at a certain standard.

[Jaime]

I do not think there is any one thing or series of things that define status in any field or category. It is a matter of demeanor, and comportment. And the bottom line is that in your heart you know when you attain that status, and when you do, no one needs to tell you, remind you , or question it. And that is not to say that you can attain it and loose just as easily. You have to work at maintaining it.

[jameslcross]

Yes it is a place of discussion... this has been debated many times since I became a member less then a year ago, and it usually turns into a giant mess with people getting pissed off at each other, then the thread gets locked, then it comes up again a few months later.

Doh! :D

[WhatEyeSee]

WOW - Thanks everyone. I don't know why I didn't search this questions first. LOL

My mindset was thinking a pro photographer was one who reaches a certain level of expertise and "master" of photography - I am/was under the thoughts that quality plays a big role....however know that "Professional" means one who does it as their main source of living. I am not looking at it in that sense, but in the sense of an 'artist' and wanted to know what my artist peers ideas/thoughts of what makes a pro. I see there there are many deffinitions, and they all some way work.

As for me I will not call my self a pro just yet...cause I have not "mastered" the art. :) wink

Thanks again all.

[RandyMN]

I always figured your a pro if your getting paid for your work. There are good and bad pro's. A question ask myself is what makes one not become professinal? Shoot kid school pictures and you could be considered a pro.

I don't want to be a professional because the money is only good for a select few. I find life is easier working a full time job and leaving photography as a hobby where now and then I can make some money.

Does this make me non-professional while shooting a paid assignment because I earn my normal paycheck elsewhere? The way I see it is while I'm shooting and getting paid, I'm doing a professional job.

When I'm out having fun I'm just your everyday hobby photographer that chose to have fun whether getting paid or not.

[RandyMN]

If you look back through history, art isn't really a paying gig. A lot of the great photographers who are considered true artists had another gig that paid the bills. There are some who managed to create great art for money, but generally because they fought really hard against the guys with the purse strings. And they often worked for free on their art, gained a reputatation, and used that as leverage to gain more control over their professional work.

I'd say the taking money part makes you a professional, but doesn't make you an artist because taking money means you're probably going to be compromising a lot of your vision for what the client wants.

Of course, there are lots of artists who created great works not because they learned the intricacies of their camera and always followed the rules, but because they were often unafraid to "screw up" and discover new techniques that other photographers would have considered below them.

So maybe it's a question of professional versus craftsman versus artisan versus artist.

Now that you mention that, I've done assignments as a volunteer that I'd consider professional. Certainly hasn't convinced me to go pro! So in my opinion to go pro just means that you accept the assignment and the responsibility to achieve the results that the customer expects from you. If you accept this responsibilty and can not meet the expectations that would be considered professional results, then you are not professional, don't fool yourself into thinking that you are.

And don't think about going pro until you can meet that simple requirement.

One further note, to be an artist does not necessarily meet the demands of the customer, nor do professionalism and art have the same definition. I'd say that one can be considered an artist without being considered professional. On the other hand, a lot of professionals don't try to be an artist, just a professional.

[transcend]

i always understood that a 'pro' is one who gets paid for what he does. maybe it's too genralized for these times.

Or maybe some professions are full of elitists who can't seem to give credit where credit is due because it just doesn't make their job seem as glamourous as they'd like it to be?

[LBaldwin]

AFAIK (here in the US) only PPof A has an actual rating level system. Professional is actually open to interpretation in many fields. It is easy if there is a some sort of accredition process needed to arrive at a given level, but with most forms of image creation, that does not really apply.

Can someone who only shoots scenics be considered a professional if they never sell a print?

The standard is... there is no standard. How many of us have seen newbies start off by hanging out an ad to shoot weddings? Or maybe your uncle Bob did them for pocket cash.

They do a decent job, pocket some cash and no one is the wiser. BUT when the consumer gets ripped off then we all take some measure of a black eye.

If you have a business license, purchased equipment, wrote it off on your taxes then you maybe be a pro. If you charged for prints, slides, digi's than you maybe a pro.

It takes guts to call yourself a pro, even when you feel that you don't quite think you make the cut. That to me is a level of professionilism.

You might be a pro if....

You take cash for pictures
You owe ungodly amounts of cash to your visa MC AMEX and guido
You can't think of anything else except your next shoot
You have your wife, husband or family memebr schlep your gear for you while you shoot.
You get caught cuddling with a picture of a 300 2.8 from ebay...
You spouse hears you groaning and runs into catch you with the centerfold from... shutterbug
You buy a truck to haul your camera gear... again.
You get bitched at for coming to the family reunion without your camera
You get AA batteries for xmas and you like it
You get asked, Did you take these?
Wow you must have an expensive / great / camera
You constatnly run out of business cards but print more when you get home
You hear on a daily basis,,,, Well thats not how such and such does it!
You are constantly looking for beautiful women, but only for your book.
You see someone else shooting on the street while you are on your way to your day gig, and it breaks your heart
Everybody wants you to work for them but only if it is free
You get asked to shoot a wedding because you have the "good" camera
You seriously consider working at Wolf PT so you can get a discount
You did do baby portraits at M.Wards, KMart, Wal_mart, Lifetouch, - and you made good money
You are really ready to go a shoot - the gears all packed, but forgot pants, again
Your spouse really loves you so--- they only charge you $50 per day to hold reflectors
Your kids run out of the house when you start setting up the studio in the frint room, garage etc
You know all of your film speeds, shutter speeds, apertures and can receit the inverse square law but need a calculator for simple division.
You are ten times more creative when you don't take your strattera, but it takes twice as long to get the image.

YOU might be a pro if YOU say so and not until you admit it will it truly be a fact.

take care

Les Baldwin

[WhatEyeSee]

You might be a pro if....

You take cash for pictures
You owe ungodly amounts of cash to your visa MC AMEX and guido
You can't think of anything else except your next shoot
You have your wife, husband or family memebr schlep your gear for you while you shoot.
You get caught cuddling with a picture of a 300 2.8 from ebay...
You spouse hears you groaning and runs into catch you with the centerfold from... shutterbug
You buy a truck to haul your camera gear... again.
You get bitched at for coming to the family reunion without your camera
You get AA batteries for xmas and you like it
You get asked, Did you take these?
Wow you must have an expensive / great / camera
You constatnly run out of business cards but print more when you get home
You hear on a daily basis,,,, Well thats not how such and such does it!
You are constantly looking for beautiful women, but only for your book.
You see someone else shooting on the street while you are on your way to your day gig, and it breaks your heart
Everybody wants you to work for them but only if it is free
You get asked to shoot a wedding because you have the "good" camera
You seriously consider working at Wolf PT so you can get a discount
You did do baby portraits at M.Wards, KMart, Wal_mart, Lifetouch, - and you made good money
You are really ready to go a shoot - the gears all packed, but forgot pants, again
Your spouse really loves you so--- they only charge you $50 per day to hold reflectors
Your kids run out of the house when you start setting up the studio in the frint room, garage etc
You know all of your film speeds, shutter speeds, apertures and can receit the inverse square law but need a calculator for simple division.
You are ten times more creative when you don't take your strattera, but it takes twice as long to get the image.

YOU might be a pro if YOU say so and not until you admit it will it truly be a fact.


;) Great - LOL

[Phil V]

There are too many answers here with a degree of subjectivity. I know 'pro photographers' who are respected by their peers, their work is admired and bought by their customers.

What I see when I see their work could never be described as inspired or beautiful. However it is consistent and they are earning a living. They are truly 'Professional Photographers' and as such the term means little to me (in terms of quality).

There are aspiring pro photographers who create inspired and beautiful work and they sometimes find it difficult to believe that people who they don't respect can be described as 'pro's'. That, unfortunately is their problem - and the reason that we get endless threads such as this. IMHO of course.

[KevC]

Professional = gets paid for work
Amateur = does it for the love of the game/sport/hobby

[LBaldwin]

Professional = gets paid for work
Amateur = does it for the love of the game/sport/hobby

HEY no fair taking an entire 3 page thread and reducing it down to two lines that make total sense. DOH:)

Les

[ACDCROCKS]

Alot of people think that if you make money you are a pro. True to some extent, but I think your quality of work makes you what you are
I agree, if you hire a "pro" photographer, you expect quality. Being called an Amateur or Pro, does either or make you take better pictures?

[ChromeLibrarian]

I look at it this way; if someone asks you what you do for a living, and you automatically say "I'm a photographer", I'd guess you're a professional. If you say "I'm a bartender, and I make some money off of photography, you're probably not a professional photographer.