undercutting

[ashleymcnamara]

I just started up my Photography Business and I belong to a mothers group...I have been doing work for this mothers group for months and last week another Photographer joins the group and puts together a "PHOTO SHOOT BBQ" and does everyones pictures for free and of course no one wants to hire me now because they get free pictures from her...How do I handle this situation in the nicest way possible?

At first it didn't bother me much because honestly our pictures don't even compare but now when I advertise and no one bites I am understandably quite irritated...

[floydianslip6]

That sucks a lot! In this situation there really isn't much you can do. To lower your prices to compete with someone that isn't in your league is a poor business decision. Unfortunately there will always be someone willing to do it for less and always someone willing to just get by with the minimum and pay less. I would advise emphasizing your quality in your advertising, and attention to detail etc etc.

You want a customer that appreciates your work and will be with you for the long run, not a customer who will pull the work out from under you because they got a better price. Maybe let the mothers group know you're disapointed that they didn't discuss a price problem with you etc etc.

On another note, do a little market research and make sure your prices are where they should be. I assume you already had good prices and just had someone legitimately undercut you...

[ashleymcnamara]

Yeah I got price lists from a LOT of photographers in my area and am charging what they are.

she really did get me good though...that is where the majority of my clients were...unfortunately people think that I just snap pictures and print them...when in reality it takes hours of pp work...so for someone to do it for free just assures them that, that is the case...You get what you pay for though.

[rhys]

Move up, move on. The photographer won't be able to support the local economy for too long.

[fivefish]

but now when I advertise and no one bites I am understandably quite irritated...

Is this mother's group your only market for your photo business?

The ocean is big. Fish somewhere else.

The other person may be a photo enthusiast/hobbyist/newbie that just wants to practice doing portraits, contribute to the group and help other mothers who otherwise can't afford to pay for photoshoots. The other mothers are very happy with the free offer even if it's not perfect. For them, the free offer means money left in their bank account to feed the family.

I say move on... the market is big.

[mbellot]

First, let me start by saying I am definitely NOT a pro.

This woman is actually giving away prints for free?

As a "hobbyist" myself I enjoy taking pictures and sharing them. Typically I'm "the photographer" at birthday parties our (young) girls attend so our friends can worry about one less thing.

I spend an hour or two doing PP (basic white balance and cropping) on the entire bunch and then upload them to CostCo and send a link to the family. If they like anything they are able to print them at their cost.


As others have said, emphasize your value because you will never beat free. Even though I'm a decent hobbyist I still pay the pros for high quality pictures of my own kids - in the long run its worth it for the difference.

[cosworth]

Actually, I took a shower and I was mulling over your situation ....When life gives you lemons, make lemon juice. Then squirt it in somebody else's eyes!


Simply awesome.

[IndyJeff]

I don't see what your complaining about, if my understanding is correct on this situation.
She is giving away free prints....you upload files and let the parents pay the actual print cost so, where are you losing out?

For anyone else reading this, there is only one way to combat the free pricing photographer, just offer a better product. I have had some parents from the local high school I do a lot of coverage of show up with their digital camera and shoot a few games. They generally give away a CD at the end of the year. It does hurt my bottom line but, I only show up at those sporting events now when it is part of an assignment. Posting images for the parents is just extra gravy then. Some still buy even knowing that they will get the free cd. As one parent told me last year, "In all of the photos on his cd there was only 2-3 that were worth printing unlike yours where 8 out of 10 are in my shopping cart from each game." The quality is better, shot tighter and cropped tighter so they get a better shot of their little darlings.

Six things to insuring a good photo parents will buy......

1. Faces, faces, faces, if mom can't see their kids face the likelyhood of a sale goes down tremendously.
2. Have the images posted to your website ASAP while the game is still fresh in their mind.
3. Clean up your backgrounds if possible by cropping.
4. Don't be afraid to crop the image to a 16x24 maximum print size. Your main sale will be 4x6s anyway.
5. Shoot as much as you can of people who have bought off you in the past.
6. Find something that sets you apart from the other guy, graphics, collages anything that makes you stand out as being a photographer not just another guy with a camera.

I imagine if you take the above and try to apply it to your style of photography it will help in some way.

[ashleymcnamara]

Fivefish-No the mothers group is not my only gig but since I specialize in babies and Children its a pretty big part.

Indyjeff-This woman is a "wedding photographer" supposedly has been for 10 years and is now trying to break into the children's portrait market...she is not a hobbyist but judging by her pictures she still has a lot of work to do. The reason I complain is because she eventually wants to charge people and if she continues to undercut me and "steal" my clients this is going to eventually hurt me. I agree that soon enough people are going to want quality work but some people will settle for free over quality...at the BBQ she gave everyone a cd...what I am loosing are those potential clients and the clients that canceled to get the free work.

[MagicallyDelicious]

personally id sabotage her in some way but im a b!tch like that! or maybe kick her in the shins!

haha no...move on - She obv has no morals to take over like that. And maybe the group should have been loyal to you?>

Walk away!

[ashleymcnamara]

Magicallydelicious-I think I will. It really sucks because it was a really simple way to get a huge client list but she really did give it to me good....:(

matthewlrigdon-I may try this because your right it is easy money and a way to show off my talents. thanks...Maybe I should take a shower ;)

[GvdM]

Ashley,

It is a difficult situation. Firstly, this woman is not a professional. No professional would undercut like she is doing to drive out other photographers. When she starts charging she will lose. It is going to be hard but my advise is stay the course. Keep shooting other jobs to keep up your cash flow but also shoot the mothers group as time allows and keep your present mode of doing business. The trash-pro will eventually have to charge or give up. Consistancy is the mark of a true pro. Always keep contact with possible future business.

[MagicallyDelicious]

She cant go on forever giving free shots surely! Maybe she will go bankcrupt and you will have lots of new clients then and then get all your old ones back too :)

What goes around comes around! if she is a meany then it will come back to bite her on the butt someway or another.

Im a FIRM believer of that!

Good Luck anyways :)

[ashleymcnamara]

Ashley,

It is a difficult situation. Firstly, this woman is not a professional. No professional would undercut like she is doing to drive out other photographers. When she starts charging she will lose. It is going to be hard but my advise is stay the course. Keep shooting other jobs to keep up your cash flow but also shoot the mothers group as time allows and keep your present mode of doing business. The trash-pro will eventually have to charge or give up. Consistancy is the mark of a true pro. Always keep contact with possible future business.


Thank you! I think this is the answer I was looking for. :)

[GvdM]

Thank you! I think this is the answer I was looking for. :)

Not a problem. I am not in that venue of photography. I am a photojournalist so those problems do not effect me, but I do understand the issues as I do some editorial work from time to time. The main advantage you have is your integrity. Never lose that. Integrity and quality of your work will always make you stand out in this field.

[GvdM]

I'm not going to fault her for doing this as an advertising gimmick.

Oh, I would fault her. It is the worst possible thing a person could do. It shows a person of little to no character that should stick to either the fast food or house cleaning industries.

[GvdM]

I take it you never did an internship in your life?

She's not experienced in this area, so she has no right to charge for it. And frankly, it's not her fault that people will take sub-par work for free. I still think it's better for her to give her work away for free than charge because if she charges, people will get pissed and probably run her off. And then they'll never pay again because "the last pro made us pay and she did crappy work and I'll never pay again" and you have to give stuff away for free to get people to pay.

It doesn't sound like no one will pay. They just figure they'll try her for free once. It'll only take one shoot before they come back to you. Stick it out and offer something else to set you apart. Remember it's not all about money.

If she was/is a wedding photographer for 10 years then the "not experienced in this area" does not apply. It is not a major jump from wedding photography to childrens photography. Please do not try to justify her actions.

And yes I interned, as a photographers assistant in the 70's. This is not the case of internship either. Internship is working with an experienced pro, not undercutting other pros. There is a huge difference.

[ashleymcnamara]

If she was/is a wedding photographer for 10 years then the "not experienced in this area" does not apply. It is not a major jump from wedding photography to childrens photography. Please do not try to justify her actions.

And yes I interned, as a photographers assistant in the 70's. This is not the case of internship either. Internship is working with an experienced pro, not undercutting other pros. There is a huge difference.


Matthew your cracking me up:lol: I retract my wink. lol!

But in any case gvdm is right...she claims to be a pro photographer. I think she is just trying to push me out. There is a CLEAR difference in our work and I think in the end that will be the determining factor on who gets to stay...so to speak.

[deadpass]

Actually, I took a shower and I was mulling over your situation

I do my best thinking in the bathroom as well, only a different appliance in there. I agree with your plan 100%, brillant!!

personally id sabotage her in some way but im a b!tch like that! or maybe kick her in the shins!

haha no...move on - She obv has no morals to take over like that. And maybe the group should have been loyal to you?>

Walk away!

I also agree with shin kicking, hehe, but that doesn't make for the best business practice unless you're in the mob.

Ashley,

It is a difficult situation. Firstly, this woman is not a professional. No professional would undercut like she is doing to drive out other photographers.

Actually I'd go with MagicallyDelicious on this on, she's most likely a pro, but she has no morals. Undercutting isn't ethical, but in business, ethics don't always apply. John Rockerfeller would sell his own oil at a loss for months just to make sure he pushed everyone else out, this women could have the means to do the same.

[GvdM]

Whether you give it away for free to an experienced pro or you give it away for free to a group of mommies, you're still giving it away for free.

What? Learning from a pro is not giving away free work to clients to drive out compitition. I fail to follow your logic here.

As a photojournalist, I assume you don't have any qualms with taking assignments from newspapers that offer FREE subscriptions. It's business. You have to give stuff away to get clients.

When I did not work for a wire service and did do work for individual papers, Free subscription or not, I got paid. So "FREE" in your words does not apply, so please do not judge me by the way you may handle your business.

For the OP, it sounds like this woman only does photography, so offer something she doesn't. When you're a small business, you have to think on your feet and be smarter than the other guy (or gal, in this case).

No argument there.

If you just run away and give up when something like this happens, you won't make it.

She isn't running away, she is going to conduct herself as a professional and will keep her integrity and win in the long run.

It's an ugly world out there working for yourself, unfortunately. And there's nothing to stop you from offering to shoot weddings for free :)

Good plan, be just like her. Let's all do it and totally destroy the business of professional photography.

I am sorry but I have been making a living in this area for over 30 years and have more respect for my work than following any of your above stated principles.

Good luck Matthew, but I will continue operating with integrity and character. There is right and wrong in the way to handle business. I think I'll continue on the high road.

[GvdM]

I'm glad that you lucked out and you get paid every time, leaving the dirty business of "giving it away for free" to the people who cut your check. It doesn't make you better, it just makes you fortunate.

Fortunate has nothing to do with it. It is whether you conduct yourself in a professional and sound business manner and if you have the skills needed for success. This discussion is going no where fast so I am done with it.

[happilyariana]

If I was in a mommy's group and someone new came and offered a photo shoot for free, I might try them out to see what quality they offered. I personally wouldn't sacrifice quality for price, so if she isn't good she isn't going to get a lot of return customers (at least I wouldn't use her anymore). They'll come back to you. And if not, there are a lot of other places to try to get new customers.

It does stink that she has come in and taken a lot of your business, though, sorry.

[rhys]

If I was in a mommy's group and someone new came and offered a photo shoot for free, I might try them out to see what quality they offered. I personally wouldn't sacrifice quality for price, so if she isn't good she isn't going to get a lot of return customers (at least I wouldn't use her anymore). They'll come back to you. And if not, there are a lot of other places to try to get new customers.

It does stink that she has come in and taken a lot of your business, though, sorry.

How is the average Joe (or Jill even) to be expected to tell the difference between good and bad photos? I have seen many people thinking they have a good photo when their thumb or finger is in front of the lens, obscuring half the photo. I have seen the most blurred and unrecognisable images hailed by people as being the best photo of Uncle Joe ever. Free is just a price. People will buy on price. The only upside is that eventually the photgrapher concerned will get fed up of subsidising the market and wasting her time by doing everything free or at her cost.

[vwpilot]

The reason I complain is because she eventually wants to charge people and if she continues to undercut me and "steal" my clients this is going to eventually hurt me. I agree that soon enough people are going to want quality work but some people will settle for free over quality...at the BBQ she gave everyone a cd...what I am loosing are those potential clients and the clients that canceled to get the free work.

See, I dont see it this way. She is giving away free prints, she will NEVER be able to start to charge, it just doesnt work that way. Once you are known for your free or low priced photography, that is all you will ever be.

If her quality is not up to yours as soon as she starts charging, all your original clients will start to say, "well, if I got to pay, I might as well pay for quality," and you start to get them back. Its easy to put up with sub par work when its free, but when she starts to charge, it isnt going to last.

She cant go on free forever and when she starts to charge that is when you will be back into the mix. Its sucks, but hold out till that day and you will start to get your clients back, its virtually guaranteed.

[ErikAnderson]

Mr. Sykes, just saved me a whole bunch of typing! :lol: Never compete to be the low price leader. Continue to improve, market yourself well, and people will start coming to you to PAY for your photos.

[Davidsl222]

It's easy to be the cheapest and hard to be the best. Charge what you charge and your market will find you. In the long run people know the difference.

[mbellot]

I have seen the most blurred and unrecognisable images hailed by people as being the best photo of Uncle Joe ever.

But every once and awhile it is...

My oldest daughter (6) received a surprise invitation last Friday to the Cheetah Girls concert (if you don't know, consider your life blessed).

On a lark we picked up a three pack of the one time use cameras, one for each of the kids going. The next day I ran them to CostCo for prints and was unpleasantly surprised at the "keeper" rate of six year olds. We had a total of 12 prints from 81 exposures (3 cameras @ 27 per). :(

However, one of those that made it was a picture of our daughter. Out of focus (or probably just too close for decent focus) and over exposed from the onboard flash but with such a look of total happiness and excitement it was "one of the best ever".

Further proof that technically proficient (or correct) is not required for a good shot.

[DocFrankenstein]

Photography is the only business where the amateurs are a threat to the pros.

Taking pictures is fun. You'll lose some clients, but then "free" is not obligated to quality... delivery... or even being there.

People hire the pros when they expect a result. If the mothers club is satisfied with free pictures, then you can stop wasting your time with them and find better clients.

The development of digital has de-mystified photography to many people and the demand dropped... IMO.

[dbernard]

You know how good you are. Charge what you charge. As people have said, don't sacrifice your integrity. This woman can't be everywhere and won't want to go to everyone's functions to take pictures to give away. If your quality is visibly better, people will want to capture their events/family with quality images.

[jameslcross]

How do I handle this situation in the nicest way possible?

With a baseball bat :cool:

[GvdM]

With a baseball bat :cool:

Thought you would opt for a cricket bat :lol:

[jameslcross]

Thought you would opt for a cricket bat :lol:

Baseball bats can cut through the air quicker :lol::lol::lol:

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Fivefish-No the mothers group is not my only gig but since I specialize in babies and Children its a pretty big part.

Indyjeff-This woman is a "wedding photographer" supposedly has been for 10 years and is now trying to break into the children's portrait market...she is not a hobbyist but judging by her pictures she still has a lot of work to do. The reason I complain is because she eventually wants to charge people and if she continues to undercut me and "steal" my clients this is going to eventually hurt me. I agree that soon enough people are going to want quality work but some people will settle for free over quality...at the BBQ she gave everyone a cd...what I am loosing are those potential clients and the clients that canceled to get the free work.

Basically it sounds like she's out to capture a market and it looks like she's got yours. One smart lady if you ask me.

[jameslcross]

Basically it sounds like she's out to capture a market and it looks like she's got yours. One smart lady if you ask me.

Or a bitchy one...

[rhys]

Photography is the only business where the amateurs are a threat to the pros.

I'm afriad you're mistaken there. Look at web design and computer programming. There is a lot of Freeware out there that's pretty much as good as what the established software houses sell. There's shareware (time trial softare) that's pretty good too.

Anybody with a PC can download a compiler or even get one off a magazine cover disk. Then they can program to their hearts content, upload to a shareware or freeware website and the buying public is over the moon. The software didn't cost them anything.

Examples of free software: Opera, Mozilla, Open Office. Now Open Office competes directly against Microsoft Office. I had Microsoft Office but when they brought in XP, it wouldn't run under XP so I went over to Open Office and haven't been happier.

The other problem is that I write shareware then some clever clogs comes up with a crack for it making it into freeware. All software authors suffer this. In the end I gave up writing software for money - it was a mugs game. The piece de resistance was that I wrote shareware that didn't cost anything other than registering it (which was free). Some twit wasted their time writing a crack for that too!

[RandyMN]

After reading I have two thoughts basically. One is that the assumption that free can not mean quality, I've volunteered for jobs and still acheive quality.

The other is that this woman has no rights to be giving away free pictures. This is a competative world and unfortunately no one can be giving stuff away free and last forever. But she has that right as well as those other members have the right to take business wherever they feel like taking it.

When she does begin charging, then quality will begin to matter, so just sit back and don't cut years off your life by adding stress about things you shouldn't be sweating about.

If she does steal your customers, look for new ones. Just don't burn any bridges behind you.

[fivefish]

I'm a web developer... been in this business since 1997, and now full-time working at home since 2000.

Thing is, there will always be competition from someone/somewhere. Some will be pros, some will be amateurs. It's a fact. Get over it. This is how businesses go. If you don't want competition or can't handle it and get upset, then take up a day job where you'll get a paycheck 2x a month... and it's NO STRESS.

I have competition in the millions out there! From guys doing free web designs to guys doing $10 per page web design to people doing DIY using Frontpage, MS Word, iWeb, etc...

Am I scared, upset over these people doing free web designs or doing it cheap? No.

I have my own market. I know my capabilities. I'll get an RFP and I'll give a quote for $25K for a site and the client will ask "Can you finish it by next month, we need it fast." And know what... I'm so busy I can't see straight. I'm booked until June 2007.

As I said earlier, the market is big other than this mother's group. Move along and fish somewhere else. She's fishing for guppies, when you can be doing tuna fishing. :)

[dpurslow]

This reminds me of a Zig Ziglar story - he tells a story of driving to work, someone cuts him up, he gets mad, toots his horn, speeds up, and gets mad. He goes to work, tells everyone about it, tells the receptionists, tells his work buddies, tells his manager, goes to lunch and tell the guy in the burger bar, goes on an appt and tells the client.

The guy who cut him up, went about his day without a care in the world not even knowing he had caused Zig to loose a whole day over this...........

Zig had lost a whole day over this and lost all the productive things he could have done, yet there was no control he could have over the situation......

Dont let this person ruin one minute of your day, move on, as someone else said, its a bloody big sea with lots more fish in it.

Get yourself busy elsewhere and then once she starts charging, just for sh1ts and giggles, offer a free BBQ and shoot - the message will get thru quickly.

The simple answer is "Control the controllables"

[ErikAnderson]

Thing is, there will always be competition from someone/somewhere. Some will be pros, some will be amateurs. It's a fact. Get over it. This is how businesses go. If you don't want competition or can't handle it and get upset, then take up a day job where you'll get a paycheck 2x a month... and it's NO STRESS.


Bingo and I'll add about the stress element. With your own business you control everything about the business. If you don't like the direction, you turn the wheel and shift gears. With a 'day job', most people just have to suck it up, bitch and moan, and live with it as they have little to no control over the direction of the company. Figure out where you want to be.