Photographers make terrible wedding guests... [Archive]

mizuno

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 19:36

I want to start out by saying that if I am an invited guest at a wedding where I am not the official photographer, I leave my gear at home. All of it. I'm of the opinion that there is nothing more unprofessional looking that a pro/amateur shooter flying around someone elses gig taking shots.

Obviously there is a big difference between Grandma taking a few snaps with a compact point and shoot, to 'Uncle Photography' turning up with his D/SLR and an assortment of lenses. You might be trying to do the bride and groom a favour by providing them with some extra coverage free, out of the goodness of your heart. The problem is that regardless of the motivation of the individual who happens to be crashing the photography party, it just doesn't look good.

I was at a wedding recently, as a guest, and I left my gear at home, as I always do. The official shooter was doing a great job, very low key and inconspicuous, but she was getting all the shots. I was impressed with her calm and professional approach. I was not impressed by another two guys (separately) who had turned up with their D/SLR's and L lenses (both currently trying to crack into the pro market). They were up on chairs, up and down the aisle, one was even trying to get the wedding party's attention for a shot at one stage.

I've seen this type of scenario happen time and time again, and it simply looks terrible.

Can I please plead with you all, if you are a wedding photographer (or even aspiring to be) and you're an invited guest at a wedding, please leave your gear at home. You're only damaging your own reputation, because it makes you look unprofessional and desperate.

You might even enjoy the ceremony more, too. :)

superdiver

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 19:37

YOu are SOOO right!

jamiewexler

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 19:41

Not to mention potentially hurting the pro's sales. Great post Mizuno! When I'm invited to a wedding, I'm there to enjoy the open bar...not take pictures!

subtle_spectre

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 19:46

The more wedding shooting I do, the more my gear sits on its official shelf at all other times. Good admonition!

Curtis N

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 20:44

You'll get no argument from me!

Many people fail to respect the solemn, religious nature of the occasion and turn it into a day at the zoo. Sometimes the priest/pastor needs to take control of the situation and lay down some ground rules.

Next wedding I'm invited to, I might take a camera to the reception. Plenty of candid & fun opportunities there and it's easy enough to stay out of the pro's way. But definitely not the ceremony.

Mathiau

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 20:59

my best friends wedding is coming up in aug 2007,iam the "man" of honour for her, so no pics, but i do plan to have my 20D at the after party cause i want to have some memories of this

NOW, i wont be getting on chairs and doing stupid things like the others, iwill just be getting the odd shot here and there, and respecting the pro's job and space.

i dont see anything wrong with taking your gear, as long as it is not intrusive to the wedding / photographer.

RachaelSilvers

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:12

I really think it's ok if they are respectful and courteous.

I actually have more trouble with amatuers getting in my way rather than other pro's. The amatuers have no sense of space or regard to what I am trying to accomplish. The pro's are very nice and introduce themselves and ask if it's ok and stay out of my way.

It's nice to chat with someone briefly about their gear and how it's going.

I had a wedding in May where the groom's stepmom's cousin was there with some DSLR and a flash. He didn't do any photography at the church but at the reception he was running around and gathering people for photos etc. I didn't mind so much during cocktails as I was getting details and candids and if he wanted to pose ppl, so be it.

But once the dancing started he planted himself on the edge of the dance floor and it made it more challenging for me to compose the shot and not have him in it. I wasn't lucky 100% of the time, but it happens.

At one point I saw the father of the groom dancing with his granddaughter and I had my 85mm on so I was backing up to get them in the frame and all of a sudden I tripped and flailed to catch myself and not wipe out or land on a camera. It really scared me!

(Remember in junior high when you go talk to a kid and distract them, then someone else gets on all fours behind them and then you push them at shoulder level and they fly over the person kneeling behind them?)

Turns out this guy with the camera saw me moving to get the shot and he decided he wanted the same shot at the same time and had crouched low to get it. He crouched directly behind me!

I was too stunned to say anything and walked away to gain my composure. I mentioned it to my husband who was video'ing this wedding. And a few minutes later my husband had to move around him and decided to say, "Just so you know, we are working right now. We have been paid by the bride and groom to be here and do our jobs and you're making it difficult." The guy got all belligerent and said, "I'm not getting in your way!" And my husband said, "Is that so? Mind telling me how my wife, the photographer, tripped over you a couple minutes ago?" And the guy walked away and stayed away from us the rest of the night.

Next time I encounter someone like this I am going to pull them aside and ask what they do for a living. Then I am going to ask them how they would feel if I showed up at their office/retail store/etc Monday and tried to do the same thing they did while interacting with their clients.

Hopefully they'll get a clue.

mizuno

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:15

i dont see anything wrong with taking your gear, as long as it is not intrusive to the wedding / photographer.

You have to take into account what other guests perception will be, though. That's all I'm saying.

It's all well and good to say you'll stay out of everyone's way and you'll not be intrusive, but I can guarantee you that someone will see what you're doing and wonder why you couldn't help yourself.

Here's a shocking and controversial suggestion: buy some prints of the pro shooter if you want some memories to keep. :shock:

RachaelSilvers

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:20

I have seen such an increase in guests who have consumer digital cameras of the P&S variety. I hardly think they would wonder what another guest with a camera is doing.

My perception from your comments here that you are more upset about losing out on print sales b/c of someone else getting certain shots? If that's the case than shouldn't you suggest that all guests check their cameras at the door?

cosworth

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:22

Thanks for saying in a seperate thread what could have been said in another. Keeping perspectives clear.

As a full time shooter now I find my camera stays at home a lot. I certainly would not take my gear to a wedding unless asked.

edit: Rachael, I see point and shooter shooting from the tables in a differnt light than the Uncle that you end up tripping over of one that blocks your shots. I think the OP was going for something beyond the P&S dribblers.

mizuno

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:25

My perception from your comments here that you are more upset about losing out on print sales b/c of someone else getting certain shots? If that's the case than shouldn't you suggest that all guests check their cameras at the door?

Your perception is wrong, as I'm not referring to weddings where I am the shooter. I have nothing to gain in this scenario.

I just don't think there is any good reason to pull out your rig at someone else's gig, despite your best intentions.

RachaelSilvers

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:32

Mizumo, my bad! I'm sorry! I didn't quite catch that you were a guest and were appalled by the actions of the guys on the chairs and in the aisle and basically making themselves look bad by jumping around. And that these 2 were also trying to break into the pro arena. They do give the rest of guests with camera (of all levels) a bad rap.

You know this makes me think of the reasons that most of the churches in my area have restrictions for photographers, because other goofballs have been obnoxious and ruin it for the rest of us who are more considerate.

Do you know if the hired photog at the wedding you attended said anything to the guys?

mizuno

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:35

Do you know if the hired photog at the wedding you attended said anything to the guys?

I did speak to her afterwards and she was quite shocked by their audacity. Apparently they were even trying to find out where the party was going for location shots between the ceremony and reception.

She refused to tell them, naturally.

RachaelSilvers

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:37

I did speak to her afterwards and she was quite shocked by their audacity. Apparently they were even trying to find out where the party was going for location shots between the ceremony and reception.

She refused to tell them, naturally.

:teehee: Thattagirl!

cosworth

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:41

Well, what would you think of a wedding guest who showed up wearing a Vera Wang gown and diamonds from Tiffany's?

I'd ask her if she came alone. :D

Trying to inject some humour in a dull day.

cosworth

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:46

You need to come work for me my friend. Club Med is full of those ladies.

Philco

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 21:50

Your perception is wrong, as I'm not referring to weddings where I am the shooter. I have nothing to gain in this scenario.

I just don't think there is any good reason to pull out your rig at someone else's gig, despite your best intentions.

In my case, the "good reason" was the bride begging me to come after her parents hired a pro that sucked wind. I very deliberately stayed out of his way, and I never shot from the same location where he was. I did my best
to get some extra coverage and I did not take it upon myself to try to
get everything since really it was the pro's job. Too bad he blew it.

tim

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 22:06

I agree, to a point. I might take one camera to a wedding as a guest, but the only time i'd use it would be if something interesting happens while the wedding party are off doing their thing, or at the reception on the sidelines. I'd talk with the main photographer and stay well out of their way.

A professional should have a clause in their contract, plus the confidence and authority to nicely suggest to anyone interfering with them that they should stay out of the way. People with P&S cameras don't bother me, I sometimes ask them to stop taking photos for a few minutes if they're hindering me, and sometimes I take photos for them with their cameras, if I can work out how to use the damn little things ;)

I had the best man at my last wedding pull out his Nikon DSLR and flash, he was quite courteous, I simple asked him not to take the same photos I was taking and it wasn't an issue. If he'd been an arse i'd have had a word but not made a big deal of it unless he was really causing problems, in that case a word with the MOB or the groom would do the trick i'm sure.

In the end my packages include an album and anything else the couple wants, so it doesn't bother me if someone else gets the same photos as me. Of course they're not likely to be able to do that with me there.

Padawan Dad

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 22:42

With all due respect to what everyone has said here... I think I am in the minority here, and I mean this most respectfully to all: It's a free country! I'm not one for being PC... I'm a wedding photographer. I like to take pictures... it's in my blood. I don't hang my gear up after work, or dread taking it out for a pleasurable occasion, or a friends wedding. This thread almost makes it sound like it's "un-cool" for a pro to bring a camera around unless he/she is working.

If were talking ONLY about bafoons who are doing flips while cranking off rounds of shots in front of the pro, and totally commiting obnoxious behavior to all attending a wedding... then yeah! Maybe they should chill out a bit. Can't say that I ever saw anything like that to make me have the feelings that most are expressing here.

I bring my 30D, and 17-55 (sometimes my 70-200) to most weddings I attend as a guest. I try to get some nice shots because I enjoy it. Part of being a professional (...and I think I actually said this once today already in another thread,) is having to ability to deal with other people with cameras; not complain about them. I am very professional wether I am working or not. There are alot of pro's that cringe at the site of "L" glass on attendees camera's (they don't even have to take a picture with it.) For some reason it seems to strike fear into the hearts of a lot of pro's. I read it all the time in these forums, in all different contexts... why?

I understand the OP is refering to himself being the guest, and commenting about other guests interferring with the pro; but there is obviously a common bond here, which a pro photographer can relate to, whether one is a guest or not.

The fact of the matter is.... There will always be obnoxious relatives with camera's, as well as obnoxious pro's with camera's. Lets not canonize ourselves here people! Honestly.... who has not stood on a chair, or crept a tad bit further down the aisle to get a shot in their career? You bet you have! ;) I have seen more pro's disrupt a wedding than all of the uncle Joe's with XT's in the world.

Unless uncle Joe is doing cartwheels down the main Church aisle and cranking off shots like Stallone in "Rambo," please stop watching the photographers and enjoy the wedding :D

End of rant. I'm sure I am now a hated man for all I have said :cry:

Lax_lacks

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 22:58

tim

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 23:04

End of rant. I'm sure I am now a hated man for all I have said :cry:

Actually i'd call you the voice of sanity :)

mizuno

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 23:28

DocFrankenstein

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 23:41

Not to mention potentially hurting the pro's sales.
Why should the guests care? :confused:

This is interesting. What if the shooters have L lenses and shoot for fun?

The lenses are not THAT expensive.

pgb2ad54

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 23:46

I agree with no gear if going as a guest. Last wedding I was invited to, I only brought my camera, My Tamron 2.8 lens and my flash. The pro had setup 2 strobes on the side of the church, well when I tried to shoot. My flash fired his strobes as well, I noticed that something was wrong and turned my flash off. Then I just shot with my lens open. At a good time, when I caught the photagrpaher, we talked about whats going on, he was really cool about it, and allowed me to take more shots. I'm actually considering investing in a nice P&S, just for that reason, and so I can easily grab it for daily shots and memories. I will leave my gear at home now, unless requested by B&G and its ok with their photographer.

Curtis N

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 23:55

why do you feel you need to carry a $2500 piece of jewelry around your neck at someone's wedding? Is it because you want to take a few snapshots for yourself or because you want to show off your kit to everybody?Usually it's neither. It's because we enjoy taking pictures. Those of us who enjoy photography as a hobby just enjoy taking pictures. It's why we bought the damned gear in the first place. Geez, it isn't any more complicated than that. I'm known for having a camera around my neck wherever I go. Weddings present a prime opportunity. Well-dressed people. Beautiful churches. Emotion. The historic nature of the event. Fish in a barrel. Bringing a camera to such an event usually has nothing to do with wanting a few snapshots or a desire to impress people with hardware.

But there are plenty of good reasons to leave your gear at home. It's a sacred religious ceremony. You are there as a guest. You are expected to participate in the ceremony and share the bride & groom's joy, not distract the congregation with burst mode, then chimp your shots through the exchange of vows.

You leave your gear at home out of respect for the people who invited you to share in this glorious occasion.

linarms

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 23:56

I don't see a problem with pros taking their gear along when they're invited guests ... I would happily take my 30D along, but it would only come out for things the pro isn't covering, wouldn't be interested in, or is happy for others to shoot, eg. obscure group shots or the cutting of the cake. I'd probably take the grip off to look a little less confronting, but if P&S shooters are allowed to take photos, why shouldn't I?

It's all about attitude. If you're just showing off your gear or trying to be buddy-buddy with the pro, you're going to make the day less enjoyable for people -- probably even the bride and groom. But if you're discretely using your camera like every other guest with a camera, you're not going to create issues.

mizuno

3rd of October 2006 (Tue), 23:59

You leave your gear at home out of respect for the people who invited you to share in this glorious occasion.

Amen.

pgb2ad54

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 00:04

But there are plenty of good reasons to leave your gear at home. It's a sacred religious ceremony. You are there as a guest. You are expected to participate in the ceremony and share the bride & groom's joy, not distract the congregation with burst mode, then chimp your shots through the exchange of vows.

You leave your gear at home out of respect for the people who invited you to share in this glorious occasion.

I agree, I dont think of showing off, but we should be respectfull to the bride and groom. Yeah we're missing out on extra practice, but for their respect I think its good to keep it at home. Unless of course you can keep shooting to a minimal, as you would with a P&S.

tim

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 00:28

I still don't believe there is any good (or unselfish) reason for any pro shooter to bring his/her gear to a wedding to which they are an invited guest only.

A photographer can only be at one place at a time... you might capture memories that no-one else manages to get.

(I need my devils advocate title back)

mizuno

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 00:32

A photographer can only be at one place at a time... you might capture memories that no-one else manages to get.

It's not your job. :p

tim

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 00:47

It's not your job. :p

I don't do it because it's a job...

Like the memory of you getting dragged out by the priest? ;)

As has been mentioned, weddings used to be considered a sacred ceremony. And in a lot of the major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam), photographs are graven images which are grounds for eternal damnation.

Now, if I'm getting PAID, i suppose I'll take the risk of pissing God off (I can add in the cost of buying an indulgence to the package), but if I'm not I figure I'll try to avoid attracting God's attention. No sense actually becoming the devil's advocate. :evil:

Personally I wouldn't take a camera to the ceremony, just to the reception or while the wedding party were having their photos taken elsewhere.

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 00:48

It's not your job. :p

No offence, mizuno, but I think you're coming down a bit heavy on this one. If we're only talking about the ceremony, fair enough, but there is a heck of a lot of stuff that happens on a wedding day and if a guest manages to shoot something the pro misses, what's the problem? If he happens to be using a good camera to shoot it, well, that can only make it more likely to be a 'keeper', right?

Note that I'm not condoning getting in the way of the pro or doing anything remotely pro-like, but if I have my camera round my neck while I'm chatting with other guests and something funny happens, who exactly will I offend by snapping off a frame or two??

mizuno

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 00:56

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:10

I still don't believe there is any good (or unselfish) reason for any pro shooter to bring his/her gear to a wedding to which they are an invited guest only.

I have a passion for cooking and fine food, but I don't take my own pots and pans when I'm invited to a friends house for dinner. Cullinary endeavours are in my blood, but I still know when it's appropriate to roll my sleeves up in the kitchen and when it's time to sit at the table and enjoy the meal prepared for me.

I have to respectfully disagree. I am trying to think of an analogy but it's late here so give me time.

I guess it can be OK, because we are artists who use a camera as their medium.

Ok here is my anology, what if you had friends who were professional tango dancers (which I actually do) would you ban them from dancing in a pro fashion on the dance floor? No. Dancing is in effect their art. And even though they are not the bride and groom or guests of honor, they may use the floor to show their art.

Photos (and video) are the pieces of a wedding that last. Memories are only good as far as your perception. The flowers dry out. The dress gets cleaned and preserves and never worn again.

I don't think this arguement can be black and white or yes and no. I believe there is a gray area. And if anyone, pro or amatuer, brings a camera, P & S or SLR, to a wedding or event, they are free to snap away provided they can be inconspicuous and not get in the way of the pros or detract from the rest of the guests in attendance.

*stepping off soapbox*

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:10

Why is photography any different to any other profession?

Chef's do not pop into the kitchen during a reception and cook themselves something they can't get on the regular menu.

Florists don't rearrange the wedding flowers to suit their own taste, or just for practice.

Mechanics don't pop the hood on the bridal cars to check that everything is ok or to appease their curiosity.

I could go on...

I don't think your examples are very relevant. Most guests at a wedding have a camera with them. No guests at a wedding have their toolbox with them.

Why should photographers forego part of the wedding experience just because they are pros every other day? If they love photography, they'll be just as keen to shoot as every other guest. Should they, like every other guest, be careful to let the pro do his thing? Of course.

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:13

One more point.

I got married 4 years ago. I thought I made a fantastic decision on my photographer. I guess people don't always see the same way I do. I am not pleased with my photos. In fact I am disappointed. Very sad.

But my uncle, not pro but he has a spectacular medium format type digital, and a few cousins with consumer P & S cameras send me CD's with what they captured.

I am deeply touched by their efforts and thankful to have what they saw throughout my wedding day. It really helped round out my photo memories of the day.

mizuno

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:14

Ok here is my anology, what if you had friends who were professional tango dancers (which I actually do) would you ban them from dancing in a pro fashion on the dance floor? No. Dancing is in effect their art. And even though they are not the bride and groom or guests of honor, they may use the floor to show their art.

I agree, unless the bride and groom had hired professional tango dancers to perform at the wedding, in which case the friends would look like jealous, competitive idiots.

I think my point still stands. :cool:

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:15

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:17

I agree, unless the bride and groom had hired professional tango dancers to perform at the wedding, in which case the friends would look like jealous, competitive idiots.

I think my point still stands. :cool:

I don't think that dancing well constitutes looking like jealous, competitive idiots.

But if they had a throwdown and started a dance off while the rest of the guests formed a circle on the dance floor, then hell yeah.

heheheh ah the visuals!

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:23

...
But my uncle, not pro but he has a spectacular medium format type digital, and a few cousins with consumer P & S cameras send me CD's with what they captured.
...
It really helped round out my photo memories of the day.

Thanks for sharing that! Similar thing at my wedding ... was nice to have photos of stuff that we and the pro hadn't been able to see.

And I've heard stories of the pro losing everything he shot on the day (can't remember how :eek:) ... in which case some good photos taken by guests would be rather handy!!

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:33

See now that I can agree with. It's the rude, obnoxious and inconsiderate folks who have ruined it for the rest of us.

It's not that all guests, regardless, must refrain from photo taking.

It's about pulling it off like a pro, even when you're not THE pro. If you can be considerate, quiet, inconspicuos etc then snap away.

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:33

If you make yourself the center of attention, you're not being a very good guest.

Totally agree. But using a 30D to take a few discrete pics is hardly making oneself the centre of attention. I mean, it can be, but it doesn't have to be. Again, it all comes down to attitude.

tim

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:38

Is it possible to take discrete pics with a 30D?

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 01:41

I would say yes. More so than a guest with a consumer level P & S for the mere fact you can rely on natural light and probably have a decent zoom.

I should start counting how many guests who are consumers and have DSLR's at weddings. I'll post my findings ;)

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 02:22

Is it possible to take discrete pics with a 30D?

Wow, Tim's playing devil's advocate on both sides now!! :-D

I think it's definitely possible. At the few weddings I've shot so far I've seen plenty of 350D's and I know of people who shoot P&S style with a 20D (just cos they can...) So why not?

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 02:22

As long as everyone keeps their clothes on.

LOL !!

tim

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 02:28

Wow, Tim's playing devil's advocate on both sides now!! :-D

I'm not sure which side i'm playing for... advocation wise!

akiwi

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 04:26

In my wedding on Saturday I was the only one with a SLR. Dozens of P&S though.
I guess as an inexperienced photographer if I saw someone else shooting with L glass I would be worried that they would be getting better shots than me and make my photos not look good. A good experienced photographer shouldn't be worried as they should know they can take good photos and be able to impress the B&G.
I have had my gear at a wedding, but never got out of my seat in the church, didn't touch it at the formals, and used it for snap shots during the reception and to get photos of old friends who I hadn't seen for years. Plus a few of the B&G. The wedding photographer was Tim Whittaker.. do you know him Tim?

Banbert

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 04:44

Sounds like you have had a bad experience but I dont think that means its fair to generalise like you have and assume everyone acts like that because thats certainly not the case. When your first starting out an invite to a wedding is an opportunity to get some more portfolio shots and so long as your acting more like a guest and not like a pro photographer I dont think theres anything wrong with that plus it can have a lot of benefits, just from my expereince this year.

* if the B&G have only booked one photographer you can cover another angle that a second shooter would possibly have done.

* If the photographer misses any keys shots (at my cousins wedding this year he missed a shot of the Brides mum an dad together on their own that they had asked for) you can get them.

* if the photographer is only booked upto the reception you can try and get a good shot of the first dance and party shots.

* DSLR's are a lot more common these days, I counted 6 at my last wedding excluding the Pro's, expecting people not to bring a nice camera if they won one to a wedding is a bit daft tbh.

I am sure most pro's here have some stories they can tell about annyoying guests with cameras, but by the same margin I am sure lots of B&G's can also tell stories about how they were dissapointed in there wedding day photo's ..... unfair to generalise in either direction tbh.

PIXI_666

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:03

i look forward to the weddings where i am a guest....i simply cant be BOTHERED lugging my gear around lol

th3r0m

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:06

Not that I am a PRO by any means, but I do and have taken my camera along to weddings and receptions (it is only a 300d, tiny, really almost a P&S these days.) I have not however taken shots during the wedding ceremony itself. Like several others have said, I'll take some candids of people I know at the wedding and reception, but I don't follow the bride or groom around or leech off of the PRO. Also, I only take the camera and 1 lens, I leave the rest of gear at home, less obnoxious that way. As a side note, I tend to find those people with DV cams much more annoying than those with still cameras( even "big" cameras) Seems like they are always walking around bumping into people because they are watching the LCD on the cam rather than where they are going.

As to the original post, I have never seen something like that, but I think I would probably feel about the same way he did. While I dont think it is necessary for someone to leave their camera at home, I think that just out of courtesy and respect the camera should remain off during the ceremony itself.

Banbert

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:17

i look forward to the weddings where i am a guest....i simply cant be BOTHERED lugging my gear around lol

I hope that I one day get to that stage .... I can see already thats its better and more fun to be either a guest or a photographer at a wedding, trying to do both is defo not double the fun ..... but when your first starting out and want portfolio shots unfortunately its too good an opportunity to miss.

jameslcross

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:29

Not to mention potentially hurting the pro's sales. Great post Mizuno! When I'm invited to a wedding, I'm there to enjoy the open bar...not take pictures!

Im with you!

JMAS

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:40

With all the threads complainning about the amateurs in weddings, I have realised that this bussiness of wedding photography is changing rapidly.
Without making any judgment, about the good and bad of that, what we see is that it is changing in a direction that presumably is not very favorable to the professional photographers, or that at least might severely hurt sales.
The question, in my enthusiast opinion, should be, what will the professional photographers do to overcome this issue, besides showing the quality of their images. What kind of diferentiated offer are they giving to their costumers (I do not include the B&G here) that may captivate them?

IMO, as in any business, instead of complaining about the behaviour of the market, the pro photographer must be asking: -What can I do to make a difference, make the sales I need and improve my profit?

Disclaimer: I do take my camera with me (one lens), taking only photos at the reception, after all the official photos take place.
I must confess that when I go to weddings nowadays (as guest), I still buy the approximate same number of prints I did before all this photography explosion, but the kind of offer I get is pretty much the same I ever got over time.

tim

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:45

Here's another thing. One of my mates from school got married about 6 months ago, but I hadn't mentioned to him that I was a wedding photographer. They hired a cheap professional, not too experienced, and paid about 1/4 or 1/5th what I charge. They only had her for a few hours, so I offered to take my camera along and take some photos at the reception and throughout the day for them. I stayed WAY out of the hired pro's way, even though they we had a chat, they were friendly and actually invited me to take photos beside them, but I didn't take them up on that, I let them do their job without my in the way.

The pro got some nice photos, but they prefer my photos, and made a lovely album out of them themselves - I just sent them a CD. If I hadn't taken my camera along then they'd not have had those photos to jog their memories at all.

I think i'm arguing both sides of this argument...

The wedding photographer was Tim Whittaker.. do you know him Tim?

Nope.

Curtis N

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:56

Is it possible to take discrete pics with a 30D?Much easier to get available light candids with a DSLR and a prime than a pocket cam with a flash. I have handed people prints of themselves and they said, "I didn't know you were taking pictures!"

When you go back and read the original post in this thread, you realize the issue is not about equipment. It's about respect for the occasion and consideration for the host/hostess.

Maureen Souza

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 05:58

I take my camera to weddings as a guest as well. I think taking photos is part of the memories of the day and it can be done politely without ruffling any feathers.
I see several DSLR cameras at most weddings these days, including the ones where I am the hired photographer. I don't mind one bit....and I don't mind others shooting the same shots I am taking. I have more things to worry about in life than other people taking photos along side of me.

Maureen Souza

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 06:04

When you go back and read the original post in this thread, you realize the issue is not about equipment. It's about respect for the occasion and consideration for the host/hostess.

I can see that being an issue if you were obtrusive in anyway but there are plenty of available moments to get in a shot or two without being a jerk. No one needs to be taking a zillion shots as a guest.
When I am not hired to shoot the event, I like to send the B&G a CD or small album of the photos I took. It is always appreciated and sometimes my photos are better than the hired gun's.

tim

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 07:04

I have more things to worry about in life than other people taking photos along side of me.

If people are taking photos beside me I find the people don't know which camera to look at, and as a result the photos are spoiled. Just something to be careful of.

Monkeymicra

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 07:15

may sister og married last year and hired a photographer it was their first time doing a full wedding package (husband and wife combo). but they seemed to know the ropes, i had a P&S and i couldnt (and wouldnt) take any photos during the ceromony as i was part of it (i wouldnt any way)

when we got out side and the B&G was walking out etc i snapped away just behind the Photographers (like most of the other guests) and from reflection i probably did get slightly inthe way, but the phogo's was cool with it and said if i wanted ot take photos round them i would have to work for him that day. basically he used me (as a member of the family and very cleaverly IMO) to call the guests to get photos taken in the grounds etc and ot hand out his cards for when they want to order prints etc. i dont think he was threatend by me (i was a bit drunk all day) and my crappy P&S but i may had annoyed him by getting in the way a bit. i think that worked quite well and he got lots of sale from prints.

as long as your descrete and dont charge the B&G if your a guest i dont really see a problem shooting the reception, but not in the ceromony, that should be left to who ever is hired to do it.

i can see both sides of the argument and cant agree on either but both at the same time

Padawan Dad

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 07:18

When you go back and read the original post in this thread, you realize the issue is not about equipment. It's about respect for the occasion and consideration for the host/hostess.

This can certainly can be assumed. But honestly, I have re-read the post, and it sounds alot more like a generalization that all pro's should leave their equipment at home because there is no place for their crazy antics, D-SLR's, and quality glass at weddings were they are a guest.

It started out complaining about "Uncle" photography with D-SLR's and an assortment of lenses (Grandma's point and shoot was OK though.)

Then the OP actually "pleads" for us to "leave our gear at home" because it makes me "look un-professional and desperate," and "damages my reputation." Sounds like a perverted generalization from someone who obviously had a bad experience and needs to let it go.

Please don't hate me for my style. I come off a little direct, but I'm really a nice guy :D

tommy_london

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 07:53

i look forward to the weddings where i am a guest....i simply cant be BOTHERED lugging my gear around lol

I'm with you on that. If i'm at a wedding and not being paid then I want to be enjoying myself, chatting to friends and guzzling free wine. The last thing I want to do is be in charge of a camera.

Curtis N

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 09:32

Bill, your points are valid. Whether or not we agree with the OP's plead, I suspect his post was prompted by the story he told, which included this:They were up on chairs, up and down the aisle, one was even trying to get the wedding party's attention for a shot at one stage.This is simply obnoxious behavior, and it would still be obnoxious behavior if they didn't have cameras. The world is full of oblivious, inconsiderate morons, and unfortunately some of them can afford nice gear.

Padawan Dad

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 09:59

The world is full of oblivious, inconsiderate morons, and unfortunately some of them can afford nice gear.

Totally agree, but I do feel the conversation touched on several items, one being: us as pro's bringing our gear to a wedding (when we are guests,) is it acceptable, or not?

forkball

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 10:52

it's been so long since I've been a guest at a wedding without being a paid photographer. I think that if I was a guest I would only bring my gear if specifically asked to by the family or B&G. I think that way because I would rather enjoy the festivities than get caught up in trying to take pictures. But I don't think that you're necessarily unprofessional if you do bring your gear and take a few shots... as long as you respect the paid photographer and his/her space.

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 10:57

Totally agree, but I do feel the conversation touched on several items, one being: us as pro's bringing our gear to a wedding (when we are guests,) is it acceptable, or not?

I still stand by yes if it done's courteously and discretely. In answer to Tim's ealier q about can you take a discrete photo with a 30D, totally depends on the photographer and not the camera (hence my siggy :) )

Anecdote - I shoot mostly PJ and candids and very limited formals. I prefer to document the day and have my photos act as a retelling of the story. I often have the clients over to pick up their proof books and when they walk in the bride looks very wary and tense. Which prompts me to ask:

Rachael: Hey how are you? You ok?
Bride: I am worried about the photos. I am worried you didn't get everything or enough. I just don't remember you being around.
Rachael: Well that's a perfect compliment, now have a seat and let's go through your 4-5 volumes of proof books! *big grin*
Bride: OMG, you shot ALL that!? But . . .I didn't even notice you around!

And before you say, well sure that happens, it's the bride and there is so much going on that day let's visit anectdote #2:

My asst and I shot a wedding together in May, it was a big one with about 350 guests. We had a 10 hour day beginning at the brides house got getting ready, onto the ceremony, then to the reception. At one point of the reception, closer to the time we would be leaving my asst walked by the grandma and overheard her turn to her friend and say, "Well they really didn't take many photos." We had quite a chuckle on this one as we exceeded the 1000 mark AFTER my edit :)

So I still think yes, it's ok to have a camera if done the right way.

Padawan Dad

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 11:06

Weren't you the one who said that you've crept up the aisle and stood on chairs to get a picture? If you were the pro, then you were doing your job. If not, you're a distraction. ;)

A lot of it is simple etiquette. Learn how to be a guest. Being a pro doesn't excuse you from knowing how to behave, especially when you're at an event as a guest and not as a pro. What's a problem is all the people in the audience who see you doing these things and assume it must be okay for them to do them, too. Monkey see, monkey do, unfortunately. But again, if you're a guest, why are you looking and acting like a professional photographer?

There's all sorts of professionals in the world who love what they do, but it doesn't give them license to do it at a wedding. A professional trombone player who loves to play the trombone doesn't have any special right to bring his trombone and play along with the processional.

As for pictures being a part of the big day, cameras have only been around for 150 years or so, and I think people were having lots and lots of weddings before that. I'm not that old, so maybe weddings didn't exist before photography. As a guest, you don't have any right to bring along your camera or DV camcorder or trombone or tango costume. You were given the priviledge of being an inconspicuous part of someone else's very important day. Priviledge's can be taken away, and in a lot cases, they obviously should be. I can think of a few people in this thread that I'd never invite to a wedding. :)

And for anybody who says, "but the other guests are doing it," I'll channel my mother and reply "If the other guests jump off a bridge, will you do that, too?" :)

Oh good grief :rolleyes:

I never said it was ok to act like a moroon at a wedding as a guest. I actually wrote against this behavior in my past posts. Yes I crept up the aisle and stood on chairs when I AM THE PRO... as did every other photographer. Whether I am a pro, or not, it is going to be distracting... I don't see your point there. The priest doesn't look at the guy hanging over the brides shoulder and say: "Oh, it's a pro. I guess thats not at all distracting as it would be if a non-pro was doing the same."

My point with the comment was to say don't be hypocritical.

Pretty bad analogy with the Trombone player IMHO. Cameras are common place at a wedding. Most people wouldn't bring a trombone to a concert unless they were playing in it. At least I've never seen it... maybe you have.

"As a guest I don't have a RIGHT to bring my camera..." Who the heck are you, the frick'n wedding gastapo?

What the heck does, how long cameras have been around, have to do with anything in this thread?

I "was given the privelage to be an INCONSPICUOUS part of someone elses wedding..." Never said that in any invitation I ever got.

Guess I'll never get invited to your wedding. You gonna have a metal detector at the door to strip all guests of their cameras?

I will state once again. I don't think it is good behavior to act like a moron at a wedding wether you are a relative, OR A PRO. But to define moron and "good etiquette" is very subjective. Thats another thread entirely.

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 11:14

There's a difference between professional behavior and proper etiquette. It has nothing to do with respecting the paid photographer and all about respecting the bride and groom.

Would you tell a professional harpist "Oh yeah, I think it would be fine for you to bring your harp, as long as you respect the professional harpist who's playing at the wedding."?

You guys are reaching with your analogies! Bill has a fantastic point. Look at the history of photograhy and the meaning of photography and why folks have ANYONE with a camera at their wedding.

Maybe it's me. I'm of the mindset that you take your camera with you everywhere. How and where you choose to use it reflects on you and you alone.

Would I whip out my camera in a business meeting? No. Is a business meeting the same caliber as a wedding? No.

Would I walk into a portrait studio with my own camera and start shooting? No. That's on the same level of your musician and chef analogies.

My granparents - all married in the 1940's. Each have ONE photo of their wedding day. One. I would love to have a more a legacy but cameras were not as prevalent to the consumers back then.

Now they are.

RachaelSilvers

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 11:53

Well, the OP was talking about photographers make terrible guests. They do. For some reason, professional photographers seem to be the only people who can't leave work behind when they go to a wedding.

If you invite a doctor to your wedding, he doesn't carry his bag around because "Someone could have a heart attack at the wedding."

A painter doesn't drag an easel and paints in and say "I want to capture the moment for the bride and groom."

A writer doesn't drag his typewriter in and say, "This is my art and I doubt anybody here will describe this the way I would."

Professional photographers, for some reason, think they need to carry their work around with them everywhere. That's fine, just don't be surprised when people don't want you around.

Darn and I thought you all loved me and wanted me around. I have rapier wit! ;)

I guess it's not black and white b/c the amatuers take their cameras as well. If I attend a friends wedding and bring my camera be it DSLR or P&S it's not that I cannot leave work behind, it's that it is something I do and do well. I am not thinking of work when I am there as a guest. I am thinking of capturing a few moments.

Those pro dancers may not wear a tango outfit but they will show their moves on the dance floor. And it's not that they cannot leave work behind. It's something they do and do well.

The lines are blurred today b/c of the digital photo revolution. Most guests would have a 35mm P&S years ago. Now I see all variety of P&S AND DSLR.

Not all folks with a DSLR are pro just as not all folks with the P&S are amatuer.

I think cameras are an everyday part of the society we live in, therefore it is deemed practical and reasonable to bring your camera of any variety to a wedding that you are attending as a guest.

Again it all comes down to the manner in which you perform.

The wedding I shot on Sept. 9th had a whopping 400+ guests. At each table they had signature pages for a guestbook they were going to assemble later. 3 ushers went around to each table with a P&S digital and took photos of each couple, which would also be added to the guestbook. The ushers sometimes had to back up, ask ppl at other tables to move or stand on chairs or get low in order to get the ppl in a frame. The tentcards at the table explained the purpose and had this note as well:

Thank you for attending our wedding and celebrating with us. Since many of you have captured photos throughout the day please take some time to share them with us at this photowebsite we created. http://bridelastnamegroomlastname.shutterfly.com

I think that speaks volumes about how some people feel about guests having cameras at their wedding.

tweatherred

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 12:02

Interesting thread; I was content to just lurk until I saw this comment:
If you invite a doctor to your wedding, he doesn't carry his bag around because "Someone could have a heart attack at the wedding."

You might be surprised at the number of doctors that keep some sort of emergency kit in the trunk of their car for just such occasions. You can also be sure that a doctor will get hit up for medical advice at many wedding receptions just as at any other social occasion-at the last wedding reception I attended I had 2 lawyers and a judge ask me if I would give them botox injections knowing full well that I have never done such a thing. That would definitely be a situation even more stressful than shooting your first wedding.

Padawan Dad

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 12:42

a lot of professional photographers seem to think they need have a 30D around they're neck all the time or they stop being a photographer.

The problem with alot of these statements is that there is no right or wrong here. If you choose to leave your camera at home, thats your choice. I personally don't have an issue with that. I take my camera to special occasions such as weddings to capture moments... I enjoy this. I don't just do photography for money. I also do it as a hobby. There is no law against this either.

As for the quote above. I don't think this way. There is just too much generalizing going on in this thread.

It seems to have made it's point, and is loaded with tons of bad analogies and loads of generalizations.

Darkhamr

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 12:42

I may be misinterpreting this, but it appears to me that some are insecure about their work at weddings. The talk of clowns standing on chairs should be dropped. An obnoxious moron is a moron plain and simple.

As to the analogy of a musician bringing an instrument to a concert or someone twisting away on the dance floor while a hired dance group is performing is not relevant. The 200+ guests at a wedding are not there to watch the hired photog 'perform' as an audience at a concert would be. I've recently married myself and even as a B&G we don't care about the photog as I'm sharing my day with my guests. Of course I will ensure the photog is not prevented from his work, but as long as you have the op to get decent photos, your feelings are not my concern.

As to the cost of someone's equipment, are you saying I can't wear my Rolex to my friends wedding because the photog can only afford a Timex? I obviously would not steal any spotlight from the B&G, but I can't see where I should care about the photog's feelings.

And finally for me personally, I was at a wedding this weekend. I did not take photos during the ceremony, but I did take candids of other guests as well as the B&G talking to guests outside the church when the photog was not shooting. At the reception I walked around a bit taking pics of friends and familiy for my own memories as most photogs do not take these shots.
P.S. *Bill I do not find your posts that blunt, they are just honest.

picturecrazy

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 12:46

It's just a fact of life now. People will always bring gear to weddings more now than ever before. I photographed a wedding of a chinese/caucasian couple recently. The grooms Chinese guests accounted for 9 DSLR's that I counted. I probably missed some too. white lenses, 2.8 telephotos, even a nikon D2X with a bracket, the whole meal deal. I dunno what it is about chinese guests but they seem to be the most likely to bring DSLRs.

For the most part, 'photographer' guests stay out of the way, sometimes with a little assertiveness on your part. But the only parts I've found you can't really control are the cake cutting and first dance. Lenses all over the place.

As a guest, I bring my camera if the couple asks me to. I usually bring the 70-200, not to be a showboat, but it allows me to get pictures while staying well out of the way. I don't go to a wedding as a guest thinking "I'm a photographer, I have to take pictures", but I bring a camera anyways because... even if I wasn't a photographer, I'd STILL bring my camera.
It would be a little foolish to NOT bring a camera BECAUSE you're a photographer, but it's ok to bring one if you're not. And as a guest, I take pictures quite leisurely... only about 60 for the entire day.

jessiper

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 12:49

If people are taking photos beside me I find the people don't know which camera to look at, and as a result the photos are spoiled. Just something to be careful of.

Very true, that happened at the last wedding I shot...frustrating, which is why I would stay out of the photographer's way if I were a guest but I'd still bring my camera. I don't have a P&S anymore so I'd bring my dSLR, but would NOT shoot during the ceremony or while the photog was doing the formals/bride & groom shots.

mizuno

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 18:05

Well, the OP was talking about photographers make terrible guests. They do. For some reason, professional photographers seem to be the only people who can't leave work behind when they go to a wedding.

This is exactly my point.

Unless the bride and groom has specifically asked or suggested you bring your gear to catch some action their paid pro might miss, there is absolutely no unselfish reason to bring your gear to a wedding where you are an invited guest.

Enjoy the wedding, support the bride and groom, have a few beers and PARTY! Leave your electronic ego-extension at home. :p

forkball

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 18:21

There's a difference between professional behavior and proper etiquette. It has nothing to do with respecting the paid photographer and all about respecting the bride and groom.

Would you tell a professional harpist "Oh yeah, I think it would be fine for you to bring your harp, as long as you respect the professional harpist who's playing at the wedding."?

LOL... that was quite possibly the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. You think that a professional harpist will just load up her harp into the back of the Civic and bring it on in for the sake of it?

But seriously... I think that the bride and groom have paid the photographer they hired to do a job. By respecting his/her workspace you are in fact respecting the bride and groom, aren't you? After all, if you interfere with his/her ability to get a shot... that shot is gone opertunity is gone and its actually your fault. But later when the B&G is looking through their proofs and notice that moment isn't there... they remember it, but where is it? Why weren't you doing your job?

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 18:28

We're not all going to agree here.

So whatever we decide to do when we're next invited to be a guest at a wedding, let's make sure we're putting the bride and groom first in the way we do it ...

For some of us, that will mean leaving our gear at home.
For others, it will mean taking a one-lens kit along.
For others, it might mean taking a little more gear.

But if the aim is genuinely to do what you can to make the bride and groom's day more special (or at least no less special), you'll be fine.

nitschke65

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 18:28

Unless the bride and groom has specifically asked or suggested you bring your gear to catch some action their paid pro might miss, there is absolutely no unselfish reason to bring your gear to a wedding where you are an invited guest.

People hire pros because they think the pros don't miss anything. A true pro can take a camera to a wedding and never even be noticed. My friend Eric got married this spring. His new wife cried when the pro didn't produce an image of her dancing with her father. I had four. Eric said, "you brought your camera?"

MagicallyDelicious

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 18:29

Thats awful. If i was the B&G i would have told the A-holes who were distrupting the ceremony to get out n let the pro do her job!

linarms

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 18:43

I [snick][snick][snick] do. [snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick].

:)

Isn't it more of a [clunk][clunk][clunk]??

:-D

mizuno

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 18:46

Isn't it more of a [clunk][clunk][clunk]??

:-D

Only if they're shooting Nikon. :p

Sp00ks

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 19:12

Wow, this thread sure exploded in the past 23 hrs. 7 pages of posts. I think someone struck a nerve.....

Since I attended a good friends wedding this weekend and had my camera gear with me, I have to respond.

Our friends asked me to take pics at the wedding and I was very reluctant to do so. They asked if I would mainly take candid shots at the reception and I agreed. However I did take shots of the wedding from my designated seat. I never moved during the ceremony. I know the photographer was worried about me, I could tell. I stayed out of his way. He came to me before the evening was over and initiated conversations. We were very cordial with each other and he was a pretty nice guy, very professional.

I pulled him to the side and asked him when he was going to give them proofs etc. because I would wait to even show them my shots until he was done with business.

There were a couple times I was off to the side, on a stair landing taking shots of them below me. They looked up at me instead of the photographer, I was so embarrased because I felt like I was messing with his shoot. I told them that they were not paying me and to pay attention to the man. Then the photographer came up to the landing and shot them from my vantage point and said "damn, you have a better angle than I did" , "Hey, I have that same lens. How do you like it" speaking to me....

Basically what I am trying to say here is, it boils down to respect on both sides. Yeah I have a big white lens, yeah I got some pretty good shots of the wedding party. No I did not bug the photographer or get in his way. After the night was over, he respected me as well. He chose angles I used and I chose angles he used and life was good. After all it is all about the bride and groom and capturing the moment. He will make the money he deserves and I will get to show bridesmaids after the wedding drinking budwieser from a can and smoking cigerettes.

mizuno

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 19:21

You say:
No I did not bug the photographer or get in his way.

And yet he was worried about you:
I know the photographer was worried about me, I could tell.

I guess he had good reason to be:
There were a couple times I was off to the side, on a stair landing taking shots of them below me. They looked up at me instead of the photographer

You were messing with his shoot without bugging him or getting in his way? I guess that's ok, then.
I was so embarrased because I felt like I was messing with his shoot. I told them that they were not paying me and to pay attention to the man.

Don't mistake the fact that he was cordial and polite as a sign that he was OK with the situation. He was most likely just being professional about it, unlike the sniper who had been worrying him all night.

Food for thought.

Wilt

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 19:30

The key in being a guest is to BEHAVE LIKE A GUEST! You can bring a camera, not leave the pew and go up and down the aisle, not conspicously walk back and forth across the front of the church while formals are being taken, not walk all over the reception hall from table to table, etc. ) Yet you still CAN shoot photos in a somewhat 'shapshot' fashion (sit in the pew, sit at your table or bring the camera on the way to the bar or wherever) and still take photos the hired professional would never have gotten. Having shot weddings for many years with medium format, within the past year I have been a guest at several weddings of the offspring of good friends, and I have brought my 20D. My behavior was as described, taking shots from my position where I would be otherwise as a guest. My photos were higher in quality than those taken by other guests with the P&S or even their dSLR, and they were very warmly received by parents or bride and groom in every case. And in every case, each of them commented about how wonderful it was to get shots not taken by the pro, and there were even comments about my shots being of higher quality. There is a right way it can be done, without behaving like a booring wannabe and not any differently than any other guest with a disposable camera.

Lax_lacks

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 19:37

The longer this thread continues, the more I am convinced there are a couple of people here who are/were threatened by someone else taking shots. Also seems a few posters maturity level is dropping as this thread continues. imo

forkball

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 19:49

And lugging a 5D with a two-foot long telephoto lens isn't ridiculous?

It's bad enough at a wedding that I have to hear [snick] the pro guy [snick] shooting away the whole [snick] time, when I'm [snick][snick] trying to hear what's going on. But now I've got [snick][snick][snick] you sitting [snick] next to [snick][snick][snick][snick] me shooting a few [snick] pictures [snick][snick][snick][snick] while I'm trying to hear [snick] the [snick][snick] vows being [snick][snick] read.

The Chinese wedding earlier must have been a bitch.

Do [snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick] you take[snick][snick][snick][snick] this [snick][snick][snick][snick] woman [snick][snick] to be [snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick] your lawfully [snick][snick][snick][snick] wedded [snick][snick][snick] bride?

I [snick][snick][snick] do. [snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick].

:)

You really should have been a nuclear physacist... if you could split an atom the way you can split hairs, you'd be set for life. I could fit a 5D with a 70-200 f/2.8L IS into a sling bag and put it over my shoulder with ease... so no, it's not just as ridiculous.

I don't even fire off shots like that when I'm the paid professional... and for the record... I said that I personally would NOT bring my camera unless I was specifically asked to and that's my choice... but I don't think someone who does bring a camera is a jackass just for bringing theirs as long as they weren't obtrusive to the paid photographer, and of course, the other guests. Your little {snicks} would be totally obtrusive. But you know what gets on my nerves moreso than shutter acuations? Those people who insist on leaving the little focus lock chirps on. And then they lock and re-lock and re-lock again. Sounds like someone using Nextel

Lax_lacks

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 20:17

Ok Matthew you have made your point about the shutter noise, would you please stop putting the [snick]'s all over your posts? It makes them hard to read and I am now just skipping over your posts that have those.

formula4speed

4th of October 2006 (Wed), 22:53

In an effort to appease those who feels guests get in the way of the pro, the next wedding I go to I will simply bring my 1D attached to my 300 2.8L, with a 580ex on top of course using my better beamer. This way I can just sit in the back of the church and not bother anyone like the pesky guys in the seats.

[snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick][snick]

Whoops, must have been in burst mode, sorry Matthew.

Mathiau

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 00:48

You have to take into account what other guests perception will be, though. That's all I'm saying.

It's all well and good to say you'll stay out of everyone's way and you'll not be intrusive, but I can guarantee you that someone will see what you're doing and wonder why you couldn't help yourself.

Here's a shocking and controversial suggestion: buy some prints of the pro shooter if you want some memories to keep. :shock:

i can agree completly but i dont worry about what others think. If the photographer asks me not to take any pics, i wont, i respect the person and what they are trying to do, for me i am just thinking picture of the people at my table, i wont know much of any one there but the bride and her close family (about 6 people)

What if i dont like the pics of the pro ?

This is when i wish i did have a P&S for things like this :( time to save up for one!

I am by NO means a pro, i have nice equipment because i like to grow into things, not be limited and need to upgrade, upgrade upgrade.

i dont even carry my camer around my neck, my camera is always at my side when i have it out, neck strap wrapped around my wrist a few times, i cant stand a camer dangling round my neck.

I am the man of hnour, i wont be getting any pics in the ceremony, this is for after wards, when the party starts, the drinks start flowing, and things get fun - the photographer cant be in all places at once, and i am sure once i have some drinks, my camera will be away anyways and i will be busy dancing, but i would like to have my own pics, that i took to look back on.

And if the hired pro is worried about losing sales, perhaps their ability is not as up to par as it should be to be doing paid work....

Mathiau

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 01:12

SonicYan

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 03:28

i just trained my brain to completly skip them..lol

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=69654

Try using this, it works just as well, probably even better. http://smiliesftw.com/x/mamoru2.gif

Banbert

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 05:02

(waves at Banbert)

Hey [snick], we're both here [snick] shooting photos for our [snick][snick] portfolio. Wow, I"m really glad [snick][snick] that [snick] the bride and groom [snick] put this together for us[snick] or otherwise [snick] I know I'd [snick] have missed out on a great [snick] opportunity to build [snick] my [snick] business.

Strangely enough friends are always very happy to help us out by being in our portfolio :rolleyes: it also means that they get extra shots for free from another angle and that would otherwise not be covered as they could only afford one photographer, they also got coverage of their first dance which the photgrapher didnt cover. During the ceremony I didnt use my camera once, I was too far back plus I was more interested in being part of the ceremony, if I had used my camera though you would have hardly been able to hear it with about 12 babies in the place :)

I do hope I never become as narrow minded as some of you pro's seem to have become.

linarms

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 05:27

I do hope I never become as narrow minded as some of you pro's seem to have become.

Couldn't agree more.

Lax_lacks

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 06:08

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=69654

Try using this, it works just as well, probably even better. http://smiliesftw.com/x/mamoru2.gif

Yea that does work very well, but I don't like to 'ignore' anyone because even if I don't agree with them they may have very valid points.

Yella Fella

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 08:00

lol this thread is crazy man!

jamiewexler

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 09:35

First off, let me say, that if I'm the photographer working a wedding - bring your 1DMkXIII with your 85L II, I don't care! Don't get in my way, don't distract people during my formals, and we're good. I've built my pricing so that I make a profit whether folks order reprints or not.

However, when I'm attending a wedding, I don't take a fancy rig (just a Sony pns), because I don't want to be "the photographer". I know that if I have my gear, my passion will kick in, and I will be looking for angles and light, and moments...I will be a "photographer" not a guest.

When I was first thinking about wedding photography, I'd bring my full bag-o-gear, trying to get great shots. I had a shot on my website for quite a while that I took at a friend's wedding where I was not the photographer. Now that the shoe's on the other foot, however, I leave my gear at home out of professional courtesy to the photographer they hired. I'm a professional, and I know how to use my gear to its max potential specifically in a wedding setting. That means my images will likely be close to the quality of the pro they hired. That pro may have a business model where he/she depends on reprint sales to keep the business afloat (and feed the kids). If I give a CD of professional quality images to the bride and groom for free so they can upload them to walmart.com and order $.19 4x6's, I am potentially harming that other photographer's livelihood. Even if I didn't care about hurting someone else's business (and arguably the industry in general), I do care about building good Karma for my own business.

And let's be honest like Mizuno was when he said: "There's not a single unselfish reason for a professional photographer to bring his/her gear to a wedding"

I agree 100%

Artists (and I'm pointing a big finger at myself here) in general have bigger egos than just about anyone on the planet. We all love to hear people say how good our photos are. Especially when we're just starting, it's great to hear "your pictures were better then the pro I hired". When packing my gear bag for a wedding where I'm the guest, I have to ask myself - why am I doing this? Then answer honestly. If I'm looking to prove something, or even have the tiniest notion that I may get a shot that makes the pro look like an Uncle Bob with a disposable, than I am playing to my ego rather than bringing my gear because I care about the B&G.

As for adding to the photographer's coverage - or shooting where he isn't/can't be - or shooting something he missed, see the previous paragraph...you might be deceiving yourself as to your motivation... and not showing much trust in a fellow professional - or the bride and groom who chose them. Enough photographers offer a 2nd shooter as an option that if the B&G really wanted alternative angles they could have two pros. I'm a little put off by the attitude that some people here have toward people in their own industry. The "Well it's a good thing I was there because the photographer missed the first kiss" type of posts shows disdain for other professionals doing their best to do a good job for the B&G who hired them.

Let me qualify everything I've just typed by saying these are the reasons that I don't bring my pro gear to a wedding where I'm a guest. Far be it from me to try to push my values on anyone else, though - we are all free to disagree ;)

I also have a different take on folks who are just starting taking pictures at weddings. I've seen many of the photos taken by guests with DSLR's, and if the pro's pics aren't any better, he/she shouldn't be a pro. I have no issue with amateurs bringing their DSLR gear to a wedding - my issue is with professionals.

Steve Parr

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 09:47

Many people fail to respect the solemn, religious nature of the occasion and turn it into a day at the zoo.

To be fair, though, not all weddings are religious...

Padawan Dad

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 10:25

I think that this thread took a turn for the worst. There seems to be people interjecting their opinions, and others "telling" people how it must be. As if there is a law that governs cameras at weddings.... and trombones as well for that matter ;)

There is NO right, or wrong here. We seem to all have very different opinions about the matter. How we handle it will be up to us. How we do in handling it will be... well... I guess if someone has an issue at the wedding they will let us know if something bothered them, or is bothering them.

Some of us can pull off shooting discretely, others, from what I gather reading this thread, have a difficult time being discrete with their shooting style.

Some want to take a break from shooting, others don't.

I think this thread, for me, is turning into a car wreck (I want to just drive away, but feel I have to keep looking.) Why? I don't know... so sue me.

Padawan Dad

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 10:40

One other observation regarding this thread is that it seems to be changing as time goes by. Some are talking about interfering with pro's, getting better pics than the pro, disturbing the guests, showing off gear, embarrasing the B&G, being disrespectful to the clergy and other relatives, etc...

It's taking on all kinds of monsters, and creating little sub-threads.

Hell, I even lost the point to this entire thread... think it had something to do with jumping on chairs and ettique... or something??????

chansh

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 10:46

I was going to be an unoffical photog in my sis-in-law's wedding. After reading this thread I'm completely put off. :(

Darkhamr

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 10:49

jamiewexler

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 11:04

Thank you Darkhamr, that's exactly my point! It's about professional courtesy. If you're not a professional and a DSLR is your family camera of choice have a great time! Please don't give the B&G hundreds of your photos (keeping in mind that someone may be trying to make a living from the photos people order), but give them 10-20 of your best and enjoy the experience!

Chansh - bring your camera, have a good time!

Banbert

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 11:09

Jamie great post from that point of view.
I think that is the differentiation being missed here. Most people on here are not paid pros, just hobbiest's with good gear. I think if I were a pro, bringing my camera to a wedding would be the last thing on my mind.

Totally agree with that and hope that I get to that point, in the meantime friends will continue to help me get portfolio shots in the unobtrusive manner I have been doing.

chansh

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 11:23

Chansh - bring your camera, have a good time!

I will, both of my kids are the pageboy and the flower girl.

Sp00ks

5th of October 2006 (Thu), 19:58

I just look at in terms of common courtesy.

If I were sitting next to you at a wedding, snapping my fingers every two minutes, or every five minutes, you (and everybody else on the row) would probably drag me outside and beat the crap out of me.

Why the exact same noise being emitted from your camera is any better is beyond me. :rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with a P&S, they have few (or no moving parts), and you can still take great pictures.

I'm not a pro, just a guest. It doesn't seem like any of you guys care about the other guests is all. On behalf of all guests, I apologize for getting in the way of your picture-taking ;)

Well Mathew, I'm sorry I offended YOU. I am probably one of the most respectable people on the planet and took maybe 6 shots during the actual ceremony. 2 when they were exchanging rings, 2 when they were putting sands of time in thier vase, and 2 at the kiss. If that offended the guests, they have bigger issues than me there in the very back row with my camera. It was an outdoor wedding, I didn't use a flash, etc. But nice of you to include all the [snick]'s, I believe you made your point....

Maureen Souza

6th of October 2006 (Fri), 03:50

I just look at in terms of common courtesy.

;)

Matthew, your common courtesy has not really shown up in the last 2 pages of this thread. You are not going to browbeat everyone into thinking your way is the right way. In this country, people have the right to bring their cameras to major events such as weddings and shoot photos (unless there is objection by the B&G).
I have never seen that happen...most B&G welcome photos of their day taken by the guests.
There have been disposable cameras avaialble at every wedding reception I have been to in the past 5 years... and I go to a lot of weddings. I'd rather take my photos with my own gear and I can't see where it is any more invasive than using the disposable one.
I am sorry if you have a problem with others shooting wedding photos and they are not the paid photographer. I personally am not that insecure or possessive about my photos that I would try to impose such restrictions on wedding guests.
Let's keep this thread polite, please. It has been an interesting discussion from both sides.

tim

6th of October 2006 (Fri), 09:34

Matthew, your common courtesy has not really shown up in the last 2 pages of this thread.

I've found Matthew to be generally helpful and agreeable.

SuzyView

6th of October 2006 (Fri), 09:52

Sorry for coming in so late on this thread. I see both sides and I think you have to deal with this per individual wedding. If I know (this is for instance) brother Joe hired a photographer for the wedding, but my niece, the bride, wanted me to do shoot in the dressing area, at the showers, at the family gathering before or after, I will bring my gear. I will also talk to the photographer beforehand to see what is going on (this is only if it's a relative). But for a friend who isn't so close, but we are planning to go to the wedding as a guest, I will leave the gear home or not bring it out. From what I've seen at all the weddings I've attended lately, the photographers have worked with all the family and friends who want a piece of memories for themselves. Let's face it, almost everyone has a camera these days and it's almost impossible to stop it. At the last wedding I attended, people were shooting with their cell phones.

If I am the principle photographer, I do my photos first with the understanding that others are welcome to shoot after I get the pose. If one of the guest pictures turns out really good, I'm not insulted. I'll even offer to blow up that picture for them. :)

peatoire

6th of October 2006 (Fri), 14:37

I just got married a few weeks ago and I asked a friend to take his camera (5D & 85 L 1.2) I knew he would get indoor shots that was just not possible with the photog that we paid for as there was no flash photography alowed in church . I told the photographer about it and made it clear to my friend that obviously she would always take precidence (he did not need to be told) and the photographer was absolutely fine with it. I think it's important to keep everone just to be aware and the entusiast should know his/her place in the proceedings. So long as you have good communication no one gets their nose 'put out' We are really happy with with the shots we paid for but the additional shots just added another dimension.
Anywayz, mainly for self indulgent reasons here are a couple of examples of what he took crouching behing the vicar.

rcpilot_971

7th of October 2006 (Sat), 01:03

Im not a pro heck I would not even call me an amateur Im just learing . my nephew just got married and I brought my 1DMK II and 70-200 2.8 IS and my 30D just to learn and to see what I could do I did not really care if the the paid photog got mad or not I stayed out of the way and when see was done I took some pic's there was a pond and a water fall there so I took the Bride & Groom over there started taking pictures next thing I know here comes the paid photog and starts taking pictures after she told me she was done now she is in my way so I got in her way on purpouse I think some of these so called pro photog's are afraid that some amateur is going to out do them if you really are a pro you should not have worry

here a few pictures I got

http://static.flickr.com/109/251797142_7877d8b564.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/99/262742032_ccc25b5ad6.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/102/262742021_c7bc1357a3.jpg?v=0

Tim

Maureen Souza

7th of October 2006 (Sat), 14:37

I've found Matthew to be generally helpful and agreeable.

????????????

designerstuff

8th of October 2006 (Sun), 02:50

I just got married a few weeks ago

First of Congratulations!

Oh, the pictures were incredible. credits to your friend. Find it hard to take photos of dark places with my unsteady hands I would always get a blurred image of my pictures.

Cheers
Designer Stuff
Designer Handbag (http://thedesignerhandbag.blogspot.com) | Designer Wedding Gowns (http://designerweddinggowns.blogspot.com) | Designer Personal Check (http://designer-personal-check.blogspot.com) | Designer Wedding Dresses (http://designer-wedding-dresses.blogspot.com) |

Rob612

8th of October 2006 (Sun), 03:12

I agree, to a point. I might take one camera to a wedding as a guest, but the only time i'd use it would be if something interesting happens while the wedding party are off doing their thing, or at the reception on the sidelines. I'd talk with the main photographer and stay well out of their way.

Same here. I usually do NOT attend weddings because they are boring, but sometimes I have to (very close friends or relatives to whom you just can't say that you have another thing to do). If that happens, I usually bring one or ntwo bodies, NO flash at all and have a quick talk with the official photog (that usually looks bad at me in the beginning, seeing 2 5Ds with the 16-35 and the 70-200 mounted) and explain him that I am there for the wedding, but in no way I want to make his job more difficult. I will stay usually really out of the way (hence the 70-200) and never flash away because I don't bring one, so he can do his job without problems on my side. And I always add that if for pure chance he needs my spot, or he needs me to move somwehere else, just make me a sign and I'll run away. Plus, if the guys in charge are nice, I offer them the first choice on my shots, just in case they need something.

It works nicely, he does his job at his best and I have some candids or extra pictures to give to the B&G as a gift. Never had a problem, and often it turned out in mutual support and working together on other projects (I don't do weddings as a photog).

mizuno

8th of October 2006 (Sun), 18:34

Im not a pro heck I would not even call me an amateur

I brought my 1DMK II and 70-200 2.8 IS and my 30D

:shock::shock::shock:

Stavhp

8th of October 2006 (Sun), 19:05

Well, im DEFINATLY not a pro
Today i went to a wedding and took my 350d, and camera bag, before i even took one shot i went to the pro and asked him if it was ok. He said yes and continued talking to me.
He came up to me a few during teh party too and talked to me and then gave me his card to and envited me to his studio.
So, if you stay out there way and ask permision i say its fine

rklepper

8th of October 2006 (Sun), 23:06

I would also think that one could trigger the pros lights and mess up some photos that are being paid for.

pgb2ad54

9th of October 2006 (Mon), 01:32

I would also think that one could trigger the pros lights and mess up some photos that are being paid for.

Lol. I said this earlier but that what happend to me. The paid photog was really cool and didn't mind me using his strobes. Helped me with alot of questions that day. I still tried not to use his strobes, I was afraid it would ruin one of his shots.

ironbelle

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 15:46

A little off track here, but what I really hate is when your taking a picture and the person your taking a picture of or people who are watching, decide to tell you what to do. "everyone is a photographer". I had one guy walk by while I was setting up a shot tell me that I was taking too long to take a picture. If that wasn't my only camera at the time, I would have fed it to him. LOL. No one will go out and buy their own gear, but they sure can tell you how to take a picture.

Dans_D60

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 16:12

It’s really up to the bride and groom just how much they want to control friends and family. Sometimes it’s just too funny: http://www.danpettusimages.com/tse/141_ll5b0913.htm

The bride and groom sign our contract that states:
… (g) Exclusive Photographer. The Photographer shall be the exclusive photographer retained by the Client for the purpose of photographing the wedding. Family and friends of the Client shall be permitted to photograph the wedding as long as they shall not interfere with the Photographer’s duties and do not photograph poses arranged by the Photographer…

Our biggest problem is not all the clicking away, but keeping the subject focused in one spot. Your eyes will follow sound and movement and if eight people are shooting, it’s almost impossible to have everyone looking in one direction.

Dan … http://www.danpettusphoto.com