Petition to Canon for new Firmware

[Derek Smith]

Dear Mr. Canon,

Here is my 2004 wish list for firmware upgrades that I would like to have on my 10D.

Although I will at some point upgrade from the 10D when new hardware hits the market (ie much larger chip), I would very much like to get the maximum out of my 10D by having access to upgrade facilities which increase the flexibility and functionality of my camera.

I am not just talking about free firmware releases which fix bugs. I mean real functionality improvements.

Here are the two I would most like to be able to buy and install.

We have 'Time Variance' TV and 'Aperture Variance' AV. I would like the option of assigning 'ISO Variance' IV to one of the selections (possibly via a new custom function setting). With IV I would manually set time and aperture and the camera would automatically set ISO to achieve the desired exposure.

My second request is for an extended ISO range into the very low ISO regions.

I am quite serious about this request, I would happily pay for these enhancements just as I willingly pay for new software to enhance my 'Darkroom' capabilities.

Pekka, if you or any other board members have access to the ear of 'Mr. Canon', would you please put this request forward. Such a development would, I believe, put Canon way ahead in this market and drastically increase the value of equipment such as the 10D.

So now for the rest of the 'I would dearly like' list, over to the rest of the board members. What crazy firmware wants have you dreamt of?


Derek

[Belmondo]

I doubt seriously that this (or any petition) will have any direct effect on Canon that will result in any upgrade being offered for the 10D. On the other hand, Canon (or one of the other camera manufacturers) is no doubt being encouraged to at least consider selling camera firmware upgrades. I can’t think of anything that could be more appealing to them than a revenue stream that requires no hardware development. Could there be a Japanese Bill Gates in our future?

[defordphoto]

Yawn.

It's okay to make your wishes known to the manufacturer, but a petition is a negative thing and not the way to do it.

[Derek Smith]

Come on Jim, its 2004 - make a new resolution

Stop being negative - get POSITIVE.

Don't get rolled by the word 'petition' - its only a word. In this case it means - an desire to let suppliers know that their customers have a need to buy something that they do not yet supply - .

However, if you still get phased by this terminology, what do you suggest - if petition is the wrong way - what is the right way?

I really don't care what words we use so long as we find a way to get the message to potential suppliers, and they get satisfying their new customers.

Also Jim, what do you want adding to the list?

Derek

[sdommin]

Derek Smith wrote:With IV I would manually set time and aperture and the camera would automatically set ISO to achieve the desired exposure.

I'm trying to figure out why you would need this feature and how you would use it.

More importantly, why would Canon spend the time and resources to come up with a feature like this?

[J.A.F. Doorhof]

Lower ISO's would be very nice.

I would like a spotmetering.
And I would like to have a button on which I can change ISO speed by a dial, on the other hand I'm now used to the way it works and it's great.

One thing I DO REALLY want is a bit longer light on the topLCD display, in dark surroundings the stay lit time is a bit short.

For the rest I'm more than pleased to be honest.

Greetings,
Frank

[Belmondo]

sdommin wrote:
Derek Smith wrote:With IV I would manually set time and aperture and the camera would automatically set ISO to achieve the desired exposure.

I'm trying to figure out why you would need this feature and how you would use it.

More importantly, why would Canon spend the time and resources to come up with a feature like this?


One scenario I can envision is when trying to control depth of field using a small aperture where a long exposure might not be desireable. Then, adjusting ISO could be useful.

[defordphoto]

Derek Smith wrote:
Come on Jim, its 2004 - make a new resolution

Stop being negative - get POSITIVE.

Don't get rolled by the word 'petition' - its only a word. In this case it means - an desire to let suppliers know that their customers have a need to buy something that they do not yet supply - .

However, if you still get phased by this terminology, what do you suggest - if petition is the wrong way - what is the right way?

I really don't care what words we use so long as we find a way to get the message to potential suppliers, and they get satisfying their new customers.

Also Jim, what do you want adding to the list?

Derek

First off I don't make resolutions. They're stupid. Kinda like petitions.

I tellya. A petition would get shredded and tossed.

We will not see some new fang-dangled features come from Canon in way of new firmware. It isn't going to happen. Period.

That being said, there is new firmware coming out sometiem soon. New 10Ds are reported to have firmware 2.01. That would make it a minor revision only. Nothing to get excited about. I know nothing about what the new firmware fixes.

What do I want? I want the 1D replacement that's being announced in Feb. The 10D is fine as it is and I'm happy with it. It's silly to sit around and dream up some concoction of what you want your 10D to be, when it's simply a 10D and will always be a 10D.

Sorry to crap on this dream-thread but these things are just simply silly. I'll drop off this thread now and you guys can all play and dream up stuff that ain't gonna happen.

[Derek Smith]

Jim,

I have to agree with you about the word 'petition' today it has bad meaning and can often spell the death of an idea.

Readers of RFMSPORT know you to be a real down to earth type, who doesnt wast time with wishes and who just goes out and makes things happen for himself. So when you trash something it generally stays trashed for good reason.

Sadly, many good ideas fail because some powerful individual trashed them early on and the rest of the flock simply followed what they were told.

If good things can evolve - they last longer (perhaps your beloved CART would still be with you if it had evolved). The 10D can evolve through its firmware, but it won't do so if its users fail to think about how they want to improve its functionality and then find some way of passing that back to the software writers.

This forum is the perfect place for that to happen but it also requires three things to happen.

1. 10D users to extend their imagination into what they want their 10D to be able to do.

2. Those people in contact with Canon to relay to them what 10D users want.

3. For Canon managers to see the $$ signs.

[arthurb]

RFMSports wrote:
Yawn.

It's okay to make your wishes known to the manufacturer, but a petition is a negative thing and not the way to do it.

A petition is only a negative thing if it is presented as demand, rather than a polite request. Often a petition is a good thing if it shows "the powers that be" what the public wants.

As a City Commissioner I have had both types presented, and it is easy to tell the difference.

In this case a negative petition would be presented as "Here is what the camera users want, and if you don't give it to us we will all sell our gear and buy Nikon. I you don't listen to the customer demands you will go broke."

A positive petition would be presented as "Here is a list of Canon digital camera owners who would be willing to pay to have these features added to the 10D, We all own this camera and feel these features would help us take better pictures. Thank You"

[iwatkins]

I'm with Jim on this. It simply isn't going to happen. We've had the same discussion already with 300D owners.

Sure, Canon may well see the benefit of for cost firmware upgrades and may even be able to secure these upgrades so that each user has to pay for them.

But I cannot see this happening on a body that is already out there. It would need a lot of work, probably some hardware changes (crypto etc.) to enable the firmware for sale model to work.

Yes, it works fine for PCs etc. but PCs are *designed* to be upgraded both in hardware, software and the firmware middle ground. Currently cameras are not.

Anyway, if you want changes, write to your local Canon rep. and ask them for features in the future. I would hope these got fed upwards so they can be added to the next new model that comes out.

I'll be speaking to my Canon rep. next time I see him about these features. I'll also be speaking to the head honchos at Canon (UK) at the Focus on Imaging Show in February. I would hope that if I do this and 50 other users do the same it will trigger little bells that eventually make it to an implmentation stage in some future Canon product.

Petition ? No, not how things are done.

Cheers

Ian

[Cordell]

You can buy every camera on the market whether it's MF, digital, analog SLR, etc, but there will always be complaints, wishlists, and I'm gonna gets. Let it go and use what you have to it's fullest.

Most importantly, appreciate what you have or don't get anything at all!

[ilya]

I think petitions like this are often made in ignorance of the actual decision process.

Typically, the marketing folks at a company like Canon make their decisions based on many years of experience of pushing products and features out to market, they go out and recruit experts in the field, they hold surveys and focus groups, they buy market research, as well as doing a lot of competitive tracking and analysis (what's nikon up to).

They put all that together with many projections of profitability, check to make sure stuff fits with the longer term vision, and decide if it makes sense. This is done tediously, tiny detail at a time.

What a petition like this implies is after all that, that they messed up and have overlooked these features or didn't think they made financial sense. Do you really think that is the case?

This feels a lot like the 300D petitions. Those took a long time to die, but perversely, they were kind of fun to watch.

Ilya

[CyberDyneSystems]

There are a number of things I would like to see on the 10D,. none of which can be addressed via firmware as I see it.

Lots of stuff to do with ISO:

I want ISO displayed in the viewfinder.
I want and ISO dial just like the exposure/shutter/apeture
I want lower ISO (probably just 50 would be fine)
I want a CFN that tells the camera what ISO to be set to every time it starts. (so I don't accidientally start shooting at a really high ISO,. I suppose if it was in the viewfinder I would be fine though.

Spotmeter,
And real user programable "Modes" instead of or as well as the built in modes on the dial. (better yet,. just let us reprogram the existing "Landscape, Sports,. etc modes.. that way new owners have the comfort of the Canon mmodes to start with,,. but those who don't need them, or thoise that advance beypnd them can reprogram them to there liking.

No I do not expect any of this to be solved in firmware.

But "Dear Canon,... I will buy this camra if you make it! " :)

[wolverine]

This is how I see it. Now, I will start off by saying that I am a big Canon fan. If I need it, and Canon makes it. I will buy it.

But, the way I see it. Is you will get what Canon wants you to have. Sure everyone who is disappointed with something about their equipment can say, "I'm gonna change to Nikon!". But we know, and Canon knows that ain't gonna happen. Most DSLR users have came from using 35mm. And have a multitute of Canon lenses, flashes, etc. Changing to a new system is way too difficult! And Canon knows this too well!!

I'll give you an example. I wanted to sell Canon gear here in Newfoundland, Canada. Seeing there was a lack of Canon dealers here. So, I tried contacting Canon Canada. Four calls, and four messeges later, no returned calls. Too big for their britches maybe? Actually, it is probably because Canon just doesn't need another seller. It sells itself. Most people will go wherever they have to go to buy thier Canon gear. Which brings me right back to my point, that Canon can dictate what they want their customers to have.

I hope someone from Canon reads this forum and actually heeds what the users are asking for!

[ilya]

not as a petition, just wishing for a few little things "at the margins" while keeping it real ~

ISO in viewfinder display

Variable self-timer (like 2-20 sec)

In-camera TIFF option

Firewire

Infrared

a quicker and bigger (2" ) LCD

Of course a quicker AF and bigger buffer, but those may be outside the margins...

[CoolToolGuy]

I don't see any additional functionality coming from Canon via firmware upgrades. If they did, it would likely impact their hardware sales, and their business is hardware, not software or firmware. If they hear loudly enough from their customers they may add the functionality in a future model to (no surprise) sell the new model. This may be shocking to some, but it's a fact of life. These are cameras with proprietary software, not PCs that can be cloned by Taiwan, Inc.

Now, for my wish list:
-I would like to see the ISO in the viewfinder.
-I would like to see a 'reset to my defaults' setting that would imply that I can set personal defaults (not quite the same as custom functions).
-I would like to see higher ISOs without noise.

Have Fun
Rick

[GenEOS]

Derek Smith wrote:
Dear Mr. Canon,

Here is my 2004 wish list for firmware upgrades that I would like to have on my 10D.

Although I will at some point upgrade from the 10D when new hardware hits the market (ie much larger chip), I would very much like to get the maximum out of my 10D by having access to upgrade facilities which increase the flexibility and functionality of my camera.

I am not just talking about free firmware releases which fix bugs. I mean real functionality improvements.

Here are the two I would most like to be able to buy and install.

We have 'Time Variance' TV and 'Aperture Variance' AV. I would like the option of assigning 'ISO Variance' IV to one of the selections (possibly via a new custom function setting). With IV I would manually set time and aperture and the camera would automatically set ISO to achieve the desired exposure.

My second request is for an extended ISO range into the very low ISO regions.

I am quite serious about this request, I would happily pay for these enhancements just as I willingly pay for new software to enhance my 'Darkroom' capabilities.

Pekka, if you or any other board members have access to the ear of 'Mr. Canon', would you please put this request forward. Such a development would, I believe, put Canon way ahead in this market and drastically increase the value of equipment such as the 10D.

So now for the rest of the 'I would dearly like' list, over to the rest of the board members. What crazy firmware wants have you dreamt of?


Derek
Canon solves all firmware issues on current and older models with new model cameras, not software upgrades. Why take your money for a firmware upgrade when they can get you into a new improved camera.

You had better get used to this idea, because the replacement for the 10D, 1D and 1DS are on the horizon!

[Daytripper]

Let the naysayers say 'nay' Derek; I'll play your game.

I would buy a firmware upgrade if it provided:
1. Lower ISO settings
2. Global reset to custom defaults
3. ISO display in viewfinder

Even if this never results in a firmware upgrade for the 10D, it may influence the feature list on a future model, and that's OK by me.

(And for the wowsers it's not a petition unless it has names, addresses and signatures - so don't get excited, OK?)

Pete :)

[KarlJones]

Daytripper wrote:
Let the naysayers say 'nay' Derek; I'll play your game.
And say 'nay' we shall, thanks. You guys just keep on 'daytripping' and have fun with your game. Just know it ain't gonna happen.

[RichardtheSane]

One thing I would like to see in a future model (it aint never going to happen in firmware) is as CDS said, user programmable modes in addition to (but prererably replacing) the current PIC modes. This could also negate the need for a default startup setting because you could leave your default settings for a given situation in the programmed moded,

ISO in the view finder would probably leave it too cluttered, but maybe display it somehow on the top lcd so one glance and you know. I for one don't need to see it everytime I look through the viewfinder because once I have set it I know what it is.

One last point about a firmware update, canon will never do it because of the service issue. At the moment all the 10d's in the world can run on the same firmware, so service wise they can just update to the latest firmware and not worry any more about it. If you have 2 different firmwares which are not interchangable it starts to cause a small problem. Then every time a firmware update is developed the testing time, programming time development time is at least doubled and the cost goes up. This time would not be paid for by the comparitive few who would pay for the update in the 1st place.

[Jesper]

I never use the PIC and green square mode. The 10D is for people who want control over what's happening anyway, so why have those "dummy" modes on it. I'd like to have programmable modes; the G3 I had before the 10D had two custom modes. Or I'd like to have a button that resets the camera to a custom set of default settings. Before I shoot, I frequently have to check the settings of the 3 buttons on top (2 settings per button) and the AF point setting. It would be nice if I can reset these 7 settings (AF mode, white balance, drive mode, ISO, metering mode, flash exposure comp., AF point) to my default values with one button push.

Also, I'd like to see the ISO setting in the viewfinder like many people already mentioned and I wish the 10D had a receiver for the infrared remote control. The Elan 7 has this, the 300D has this, so why is it missing on the 10D?!

[agit-prop]

[ sarcasm ] Hey why doesn't someone upload the current firmware to slashdot and get the international hacker community to hack these new features into the 10D? [ /sarcasm ]

[Vegas Poboy]

I'm sure there is something we all would like to see modified or added to the 10D but consumer electronic products is always going through changes due to cost and techonology. If things could be done within firmware I'm sure it would be great but I'm pretty sure Canon is working on better things than perfecting their top seller camera.

Out of curiosity why do some of you feel that a lower ISO is needed. All of the 10d pro's I've seen here in Vegas is very happy with the 100 iso and Fuji has even met photographers request by putting a high quality 100 speed E6 on the market. I've seen posters shot with the10D (RAW) & was flawless. Using a good printing company is a great help for enlarging & these prints is used in the casinos for advertisement. The Casino industry wants (gets) high quality but believes in bottom line pricing.

This is just a question, when I don't know I asked.
:)
Bennie

[where1]

I think people want lower ISO so they can shoot longer exposures. I know I had 2 polorizer filters stacked while at F22 and ISO100 to get a longer exposure the other day.

[ssim]

I saw this heading and I thought that the 300D owners were at it again. :shock: .

There are some great suggestions here. I think the bottom line is that Canon could probably do some of these via a firmware update but why would they. They know that us camera owners are always afte the latest and greatest and that they could build many of these "enhancements" in to the next generation DSLR that they will bring to market. So they could sell us a firmware upgrade for a couple of hundred dollars or sell us a new camera for thousands. Rocket science it's not. The next DSLR is going to have to have significant enhancements over the 10D to make it enticing to the users to make the upgrade.

For me I would like the lower ISO and to have this value displayed in the viewfinder. The IV concept is intriquing and is one that I think that I would use to a certain degree.

It would be a safe bet that someone from Canon does monitor this and many other forum boards so I'm guessing that the message does get through without someone physically delivering said "petition" to them. Canon wants to maintain it's leadership in this field and I think that their next camera will surprise everyone (undoubtedly so will the price).

ps - Wolverine - How's the snow situation over there in NFLD

[Longwatcher]

Short of Canon lowering the price on the 1Ds.

Improvements to the 10D I would like include the user programable modes taking over the "basic mode" of the dial. I would use the computer hookup to set these modes because using the Custom functions would require way too much error correction on the camera's part. A special software could allow you to select which button did which so you could dial in you settings.

I also like the ISO variable mode idea, although I would not use it very often, I could see the utility for select situations.

The only true firmware upgrade is to allow a custom function setting to allow the 100-400 IS to autofocus with an extender on. I will take the risk that it miss focuses. It will very likely get closer then me using manual focus the way my eyes work versus that horrible focusing screen of the 10D. (The one thing I like on my really old AV-1 was the focusing screen)

Speaking of which my #1 true gripe for the 10D is the focusing screen is useless for me. I plain and simple can't use it, so I am basically guessing. That, resolution and FF are my three factors for an upgrade camera. I can tolerate the resolution and 1.6x factor as cost derived, but the focusing screen is just plain annoying.

Sorry ranting there for a moment.