The power and control of 'manual input', please consider:

[dscottf]

in http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21848
Pekka wrote:
Exif is not applied in manual input because other features have taken so much time and care to code. It may be relatively simple to add but it's still not on top of my list. And I consider manual input a feature soon to be obsolete in EE.

*snip*

2. I will add "re-read exif" feature in 1.51 or so, which will be added to powertools section. This will of course need uploaded originals to be stored somewhere in server, or that Imagemagic 'remove profiles' command was not set on for big size photos. Additional ways to read exif later could be possible, like adding "upload exif source" to photo editor which would let you send one photo as temporary source for exif reading.

I submit, manual input is (and should be) an advanced feature, with continued and expanded support.

Here is my workflow (and why imagemagic doesn't cut it for me)

1st, I use Photokit Sharpener (by pixelgenuis) for sharpening. So where I say 'sharpen', that is what I mean (and I just started using it, I have been waiting for 1.5 to redo my gallery using PKsharpening, since my current gallery (http://photo.fx4.net) has a lot of objectionable sharpening artifacts from photoshop's USM)

2nd, I have all this programed into photoshop action droplets and applscripts (so it is fast)

from, full size, 16bit adobeRGB photoshop files, I drop file(s) onto a droplet

for landscape aspect files the droplet does:

Prepare (convert to sRGB, save history snapshot)

crop (with dialog) to 1280x854
load watermark layer (watermark in lower right, with blending properties)
Dialog: adjust blending properties to look best with image
flatten
apply Photokit web sharpening
flatten
convert to 8bit
save as jpeg (to widescreen folder)

Revert to snapshot
crop (with dialog) to 1152x864
load watermark layer (watermark in lower right, with blending properties)
Dialog: adjust blending properties to look best with image
flatten
apply Photokit web sharpening
flatten
convert to 8bit
save as jpeg (to big folder)

Revert to snapshot
resize to 'normal' (default) 832px wide
apply Photokit web sharpening
flatten
convert to 8bit
save as jpeg (to normal folder)

Revert to snapshot
resize to 'small' 580px wide
apply Photokit web sharpening
flatten
convert to 8bit
save as jpeg (to small folder)

Revert to snapshot
resize to 'thumb' 130px wide
apply Photokit web sharpening
flatten
convert to 8bit
save as jpeg (to thumb folder)

Revert to snapshot
resize to 'microthumb' 45px high
apply Photokit web sharpening
flatten
convert to 8bit
save as jpeg (to microthumb folder)
-----
end

portrate aspect files use a similer droplet

Then I run an applescript to copy the files over to the server. (I used to save directly to the server, but I sometimes want the thumbs in more than one place)

I relate that long process to illustrate that there is no way to achieve the same results (or the same quality) in imagemagic (the watermark is quite visual, and the cropping can be a difficult judgment). So I must manually add photos to a gallery.

see http://photo.fx4.net

But, manual input does not read metadata, so, one of the major reasons I have been wanting to upgrade, the use of XMP data, becomes useless, and the requirement to go back and "re-read exif" is just silly (and I can't even do that yet). the other reason is nested galleries, which are promising, though not what I had hoped for (see 'smart galleries' below)

an aside, I host my site on an OS X server (like at least one other person here) I never, ever, ever use ftp, from anywhere (afp is soooo much nicer), I would never want to, it is a big pain compared to connecting directly to my server (not too mention so much slower), taking several extra steps.

Sorry if this is a bit o a rant, but...

while the new features of EE1.5 are great for the convenience of "quick and easy" galleries, they seem to be at the expense of (developing) features for the more advanced user who wants more control (especially over the quality of the images, which is kinda the whole point in my book)

From my quick testing, 1.5 seems to be almost a downgrade from 1.3, with emphasis on ease of use, rather than the best looking images (in what is undoubtedly the best working and best looking gallery package). At best, it's not much of an improvement, with 'manual insert' being relegated to the "obsolecent" catagory

My suggestions? just three would make ee a powertool (without detracting from "quick and easy galleries")

1: XMP/exif data should be read upon manual insertion by default (and why doesn't "choose all valid paths" happen automatically?)

2: Smart Galleries should be able to be auto filled by xmp/exif data... i.e, I should be able to have a gallery that displays by a date range (date shot), or by IPTC keywords, or by... you get the idea (Smart Galleries?? see iTunes). They would auto update and I would never use anything else. For this to work, you would have to be able to edit photos before they were inserted. klunky but workable would be to add every photo to a hidden or unused gallery

3: auto creating thumbnails would be useful, if it could be combined with custom sizes that were manually added (the big, small and widescreen sizes for me). the 'original' would need to be unmodified by imagemagic (is this already in here?), and the whole thing would have to work without the ftp 'trigger' (probably not doable, and would not save much effort, but hey, it sounds good)

This is of course, just my opinion.

-- Scott

[Pekka]

Hi Scott,

I use Photokit Sharpener, too. Excellent tool.

an aside, I host my site on an OS X server (like at least one other person here) I never, ever, ever use ftp, from anywhere (afp is soooo much nicer), I would never want to, it is a big pain compared to connecting directly to my server (not too mention so much slower), taking several extra steps.

Well I don't see ftp being much work as EE does it all automatically.... but not wanting to use it is ok, too.

Just a question: is this solution impossible to you:
1. EE does resizing (even with GD1) and saves sizes.
2. You upload better versions of images over old ones.

That is my workflow. Imagemagick is not perfect in quality, so when professional level presentation is needed it is of course wise to do sizes in PS and substitute them on server. But Imagemagick is the best solution available when you need it fast and automated.

Sorry if this is a bit o a rant, but...

while the new features of EE1.5 are great for the convenience of "quick and easy" galleries, they seem to be at the expense of (developing) features for the more advanced user who wants more control (especially over the quality of the images, which is kinda the whole point in my book)

From my quick testing, 1.5 seems to be almost a downgrade from 1.3, with emphasis on ease of use, rather than the best looking images (in what is undoubtedly the best working and best looking gallery package). At best, it's not much of an improvement, with 'manual insert' being relegated to the "obsolecent" catagory

Ok, I'll drop the obsolete status of manual input and see what can be done to make it better.

Everything that was in 1.3 is in 1.5. New upload system, image data reading, better browser, comments, templates, new editors and languages are improvements for most people. The manual input is nearly identical to 1.3. I see 1.5 a big improvement in ease of usage, after it is set up. But of course people may see things differently and I respect that and as developer think how it can be improved even more.

My suggestions? just three would make ee a powertool (without detracting from "quick and easy galleries")

1: XMP/exif data should be read upon manual insertion by default (and why doesn't "choose all valid paths" happen automatically?)

Yes this will be added - I'm just finishing IPTC, XMP and EXIF data output - the output can be easily used in manual input system. ONly problem with manual input filedata reading is that you must have file to read - this means you have to preset a path with those new images that have EXIF/IPTC/XMP.

2: Smart Galleries should be able to be auto filled by xmp/exif data... i.e, I should be able to have a gallery that displays by a date range (date shot), or by IPTC keywords, or by... you get the idea (Smart Galleries?? see iTunes). They would auto update and I would never use anything else. For this to work, you would have to be able to edit photos before they were inserted. klunky but workable would be to add every photo to a hidden or unused gallery

I get your point. I have a hunch this would be quite easy to do with EE code. I'll put this on my list to investigate.

3: auto creating thumbnails would be useful, if it could be combined with custom sizes that were manually added (the big, small and widescreen sizes for me). the 'original' would need to be unmodified by imagemagic (is this already in here?), and the whole thing would have to work without the ftp 'trigger' (probably not doable, and would not save much effort, but hey, it sounds good)

Autocreating thumbnails on the fly (is that what you mean?) will definitely kill busy servers. That is why it is not in my todo list.

Using ftp gets round tons of problems which arise from PHP and server interaction. With ftp EE can do folders, delete and create images and move them without any problems no matter how PHP is set. Without ftp you would need to create folders, set file permission and do file maintenance by hand etc.

Thanks for the food for thought.

[mvrekum]

Using ftp gets round tons of problems which arise from PHP and server interaction. With ftp EE can do folders, delete and create images and move them without any problems no matter how PHP is set. Without ftp you would need to create folders, set file permission and do file maintenance by hand etc.

Hello Pekka,

I am new to EE and I just started to play around with it (1.5b5) this week. After testing it on my local intranet server I uploaded it to my provider yesterday. There I noticed that the FTP module for PHP is not installed, so all FTP features in EE are useless for me and I have to do everything by hand. For me it would be better to let PHP handle the file management.
Your statement that with ftp you would need to create folders, set file permission and do file maintenance by hand is not true. PHP can do the same. The only problem arises when PHP is running in safe_mode, but that can be overcome to.

I totaly agree with Scott that manual insert should stay and it would greatly improve if you would add a button to the photo editor to read exif/iptc into the fields. I can not imagine that this would be that difficult to add since you already use the code for automatic upload. Now you only have to trigger this code manualy.

Thanks for the great script,
Martin

Btw, I figured out how the multilingual settings work and I have already added the dutch language (translated it myself)

[Pekka]

There I noticed that the FTP module for PHP is not installed, so all FTP features in EE are useless for me and I have to do everything by hand. For me it would be better to let PHP handle the file management.
Your statement that with ftp you would need to create folders, set file permission and do file maintenance by hand is not true. PHP can do the same. The only problem arises when PHP is running in safe_mode, but that can be overcome to.

I already have coded my own PHP ftp functions which work independently of PHP's ftp module. So that has been taken care of. Safe mode does not affect ftp - only side effect of safe mode with EE is that Imagemagick needs to be set to run from "safe mode exec dir" in PHP

I'm now working on manual input image data reading - it will use exactly same EXIF/IPTC/XMP reading code as ftp upload.

I just heard I have next week off so whole next week will be rigorous EE coding so that I finally get that RC ready.

[ArtM]

I too am in favour of high priority to Manual Input in newer versions of EE.

I work in a Windows environment & have control & access to my own server. But that's not a significant factor of my workflow.

The basic workflow is to first select & copy pictures from my camera input to the 'originals/printing' folder on my local PC under the Gallery Name desired, e'g.,

GalleryX
o originals/printing
o VGA1024
o SVGA800
o VGA640
o Thumbs
o Microthumbs

All of these folders for GalleryX are placed under a 'Pictures' folder on my local Hard Drive, which also acts as a backup for my server EE data.

If there is any picture dress up/cropping/etc to be done, I might use Picture Windows Pro (http://www.dl-c.com) on these selected originals in their new location in GalleryX.

I often use EXIF Image Viewer (http://home.pacbell.net/michal_k/) for this, as it creates fast thumbs of pictures for viewing & selection & copying.

That is, I end up with my selected pics in the 'originals' folder within GalleryX.

I then use Photothumb (http://www.photothumb.com) to add any IPTC info to the originals.

Then, again using Photothumb, I create, first the thumbs & XVGA1024 data directly in their folders, in ONE pass of Photothumb, sharpening at the same time; using a pre-setup profile/config for PT. The only change I have to make is to the Gallery name itself.

In an additional pass of Photothumb, again using a preset config & changing the Gallery name, I create the Microthumbs & SVGA800 - again sharpening lightly as it goes along.

If I want to create a VGA640 size, I use an additional pass of PT - without creating thumb/microthumb.

Then comes the server work.

First FTP the contents of GalleryX to the EE part of the server, under a main folder of 'Pics'. All photo folders for GalleryX are now on the server.

In EE 1.22, from my local PC, now setup the path system, which is mostly copying an existing path line to a new/added path & changing the name of GalleryX.

Then set up Exhibit & Photo Defaults.

Now add a picture to the Exhibit, and, using the photo editor, select 'Add All Unused' - and add them ALL to the exhibit at once. I can then edit any info on individual photos, change order, etc.

Voila - Done !! A new EE Gallery is operational.

At this time I am stymied on how to replicate this in V1.5 !!

- Art


:roll:

[Pekka]

I too am in favour of high priority to Manual Input in newer versions of EE.

I work in a Windows environment & have control & access to my own server. But that's not a significant factor of my workflow.

The basic workflow is to first select & copy pictures from my camera input to the 'originals/printing' folder on my local PC under the Gallery Name desired, e'g.,

GalleryX
o originals/printing
o VGA1024
o SVGA800
o VGA640
o Thumbs
o Microthumbs

All of these folders for GalleryX are placed under a 'Pictures' folder on my local Hard Drive, which also acts as a backup for my server EE data.

If there is any picture dress up/cropping/etc to be done, I might use Picture Windows Pro (http://www.dl-c.com) on these selected originals in their new location in GalleryX.

I often use EXIF Image Viewer (http://home.pacbell.net/michal_k/) for this, as it creates fast thumbs of pictures for viewing & selection & copying.

That is, I end up with my selected pics in the 'originals' folder within GalleryX.

I then use Photothumb (http://www.photothumb.com) to add any IPTC info to the originals.

Then, again using Photothumb, I create, first the thumbs & XVGA1024 data directly in their folders, in ONE pass of Photothumb, sharpening at the same time; using a pre-setup profile/config for PT. The only change I have to make is to the Gallery name itself.

In an additional pass of Photothumb, again using a preset config & changing the Gallery name, I create the Microthumbs & SVGA800 - again sharpening lightly as it goes along.

If I want to create a VGA640 size, I use an additional pass of PT - without creating thumb/microthumb.

Then comes the server work.

First FTP the contents of GalleryX to the EE part of the server, under a main folder of 'Pics'. All photo folders for GalleryX are now on the server.


So far identical with 1.5 manual workflow.

In EE 1.22, from my local PC, now setup the path system, which is mostly copying an existing path line to a new/added path & changing the name of GalleryX.

Then set up Exhibit & Photo Defaults.

Again identical with 1.5 manual workflow.

Now add a picture to the Exhibit, and, using the photo editor, select 'Add All Unused' - and add them ALL to the exhibit at once.

Here is the only difference: In 1.5 manual workflow you upload (with ftp or via form) ANY SIZE photos to input/UPLOAD folder. Then open upload page, select them all and do the upload normally while "SPECIAL: no ftp or resize automation (manual file upload)" is checked.

What this does is the same old "add all unused photos", except that 1.5 also reads and inserts all EXIF/IPTC and XMP data it can get from image, guesses and adds lenses etc and adds/inserts categories.

The photos you upload to input/UPLOAD can be as small as 10x10 pixels - they are only used for filename and EXIF/IPTC/XMP reading. You decide if you save them with EXIF/IPTC/XMP of not. If not, then they are only used as filename reference.

I honestly can't see why this would be worse that 1.22 version of manual input. Now you have one common interface with all benefits of 1.5 data reading and other features.

[ArtM]

Pekka, thank you for your patience! I will get 'it' soon ... !!

I wanted to try a little more before replying, but I'm having ImageMagick setup troubles & size path/analyzer troubles, yet to be resolved.

Here is the only difference: In 1.5 manual workflow you upload (with ftp or via form) ANY SIZE photos to input/UPLOAD folder. Then open upload page, select them all and do the upload normally while "SPECIAL: no ftp or resize automation (manual file upload)" is checked.

I understand that an image with full EXIF/IPTC is required to properly update the database. But this IS an extra step. Unless I resend the 'original' - with its EXIF/IPTC into the upload folder, I must create a new set of images, downsized to keep speed up - containing the EXIF/IPTC data - and send them into the UPLOAD folder. Photothumb might let me do this in combination with creating my final 640 X 480 size; but don't know whether it will keep the EXIF/IPTC data on the downsize. I can then perform the 'Manual' upload/update. This should work. But the extra step is there.

I'm thinking as I write (dangerous...!) Could there be another switch at the front of UPLOAD. It might 1) redirect the source of the Upload to my 'originals' folder. Or 2) force a copy - on the server - from my 'originals' to the Upload folder, before continuing. Or .... ??

Thoughts. Have a good weekend.

- Art

:roll: :idea: