Tough lighting choice..help me out.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

I seem to be doing a lot more portrait work lately, so I'd like a bit of a light setup. Now I've got my Custom Bracket that I'll use my 580 on, but I'm wondering between the other part of the setup. I figure I've got two good choices. For the same money (between $3-400), I can get either:

1. Alienbees B800, silver/white umbrella, lightstand, case- $375 all in

2. 430 EX, Eclipse white satin umbrella with black removable cover, 9' lightstand, shoe bracket- $350


another question I might have...what else would I need if I should go with the AB light? Cords? Transmitter? Anything?

I like the portability of the speedlite setup, but I like the power of the AB. I'll add that I'm not remotely interested at this point in spending hundreds extra on a portable battery setup.

[Wilt]

Your decision should be based primarily on type of use!

If use is eventual studio shooting, starting with the AB is better choice...it has a modelling light so you can see the effect, and used with a reflector you have a basic lighting setup for studio.

If use is for shooting events, the 430EX would be a better choice, as you have zero predictability about AC availability, and you do not want guests tripping over your power cord and bringing it all crashing down!

[In2Photos]

another question I might have...what else would I need if I should go with the AB light? Cords? Transmitter? Anything?


The AB light will come with a 15 foot sync cord to hook up to your PC socket on the 5D. If you want wireless you will have to buy that seperately. The ebay cheapo wireless systems are frequently recommended as well as pocket wizards ($$$).

[JMHPhotography]

I have a few of the el-cheapo radio triggers... and I LOVE them. I'll never use a sync cable again. haha. Although there is a timing issue that prevents me from being able to use a shutter that's faster than 1/200... my cameras both max at 1/250 when hard wired. But 1/200 is just as good as 1/250 in the studio as far as I'm concerned.

But as far as lights go, I'll tell you what... I use a smallish studio (12'x24' with 12' ceiling) and my 160/ws JTL's are MORE than powerful enough. I use two 160's for main and hair because I can really tune the output to where I need without moving them out and in too much. For fill and BG I use 110's at ½ power. I find that in such tight quarters, I'm all the way down on the hair light, and at about 1/4 power on the main to get my magical f/8. I've got softboxes for the 160's coming so we'll see how much more power I'll need for those.. but I'm shooting through an umbrella now and probably getting som bounce from the reflected light off of the walls. I think that AB-800's would just not even be close to being useful in my setup, so keep that in mind. It would really be bad if you got the 800 and found that you couldn't turn it down far enough to use in the space you shoot in.

Here's a shot of my colleague and fellow photog friend using said setup. minus the background light of course. We were setting up the lights for a shoot that she was doing... and she needed to use my two 160's and boom setup.
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/2500/heidismallgv1.jpg

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Two things...

Are the AB's just manually set right on the flash head, or do they work like a flash would? (E-TTL)

Also, how would I use a speedlite along with the AB?

[In2Photos]

Two things...

Are the AB's just manually set right on the flash head, or do they work like a flash would? (E-TTL)

Also, how would I use a speedlite along with the AB?
The AB settings are right on the strobe itself. They do not work like a Speedlight (ETTL). A light meter would best to use to determine exposure.

If you use the AB and the Speedlight the AB becomes your slave. It has a sensor onboard to be used as an optical slave. You will need to use manual mode on your flash to prevent the pre-flash that occurs during ETTL.

[In2Photos]

But as far as lights go, I'll tell you what... I use a smallish studio (12'x24' with 12' ceiling) and my 160/ws JTL's are MORE than powerful enough. I use two 160's for main and hair because I can really tune the output to where I need without moving them out and in too much. For fill and BG I use 110's at ½ power. I find that in such tight quarters, I'm all the way down on the hair light, and at about 1/4 power on the main to get my magical f/8. I've got softboxes for the 160's coming so we'll see how much more power I'll need for those.. but I'm shooting through an umbrella now and probably getting som bounce from the reflected light off of the walls. I think that AB-800's would just not even be close to being useful in my setup, so keep that in mind. It would really be bad if you got the 800 and found that you couldn't turn it down far enough to use in the space you shoot in.

I am worried about this when I get my lights but I would rather have too much power than not enough. What happens if you take those lights to a larger space? Outdoors? I could always buy some ND gels for the lights.

[Wilt]

In2Photos, the hazard of buying TOO POWERFUL is that you are unable to reduce the light output sufficiently to permit you to use a large aperture on the lens to minimize the DOF. Theres is a problem of too much power in that circumstance. While many studio flashes have partial power settings, you still might not have a low enough setting for the f/stop you wish to use. I would not worry about having more than 500w/s per light unless you wanted to do product photography with small apertures to have deep DOF.

[In2Photos]

In2Photos, the hazard of buying TOO POWERFUL is that you are unable to reduce the light output sufficiently to permit you to use a large aperture on the lens to minimize the DOF. Theres is a problem of too much power in that circumstance. While many studio flashes have partial power settings, you still might not have a low enough setting for the f/stop you wish to use. I would not worry about having more than 500w/s per light unless you wanted to do product photography with small apertures to have deep DOF.

I understand that Wilt, and thanks for the reminder. Is that 500 w/s true or effective? Do you think that most applications would be fine with say the AB400s?

[JMHPhotography]

I am worried about this when I get my lights but I would rather have too much power than not enough. What happens if you take those lights to a larger space? Outdoors? I could always buy some ND gels for the lights.

It's funny you mention this... I used my 160's to do an outdoor group photography session for my daughter's dance team. They worked just fine. In fact, the parent's of the kids all said how impressed they were at how much I made them look like they were done in a studio. To be totally honest with you... unless you are needing to pull the lights WAAAAAAAAAY back from your subject, you truthfully do not need all that power. I was able to place my main light which was a JTL J-160 firing THROUGH a 43" translucent umbrella about 7 feet from my subject. I used a softgold 36" reflector on the opposite side for fill and another J-160 to light up the background. The background light was almost all the way down and the main was at about ½ power. Remember that a 160ws strobe at ½ power at 7 feet from subject is going to light your subject exactly the same way in both indoors and outdoors in large and small spaces. When using strobes for your primary light source, the ambient lighting is irrelevant.

Here's one of my daughter's individual shots... forgive the poor jpeg compression.. I didn't have a local copy of it here and just grabbed the preview image from my MPIX account. The prints came out tremendous.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2646/ashleeclogna2.jpg

[Wilt]

I understand that Wilt, and thanks for the reminder. Is that 500 w/s true or effective? Do you think that most applications would be fine with say the AB400s?

I think the 'effective rating ' is a bunch of marketing BS (emphasize the sh*t, please) to make a unit appear more appealing to buyers! I once saw a 'shootout' at a tradeshow were a unit advertised as 'effective 1500 w/s' was OUTPERFORMED by another brand who advertised 'real 750w/s'

A professional studio lighting equipment company offers a two light 'portraiture kit' based on a single 500 w/s power pack to power both heads, and that is more than enough to do the job of shooting portraiture.

[In2Photos]

It's funny you mention this... I used my 160's to do an outdoor group photography session for my daughter's dance team. They worked just fine. In fact, the parent's of the kids all said how impressed they were at how much I made them look like they were done in a studio. To be totally honest with you... unless you are needing to pull the lights WAAAAAAAAAY back from your subject, you truthfully do not need all that power. I was able to place my main light which was a JTL J-160 firing THROUGH a 43" translucent umbrella about 7 feet from my subject. I used a softgold 36" reflector on the opposite side for fill and another J-160 to light up the background. The background light was almost all the way down and the main was at about ½ power. Remember that a 160ws strobe at ½ power at 7 feet from subject is going to light your subject exactly the same way in both indoors and outdoors in large and small spaces.


Thanks for that John. So for single subjects (or maybe a couple) I should be fine then as the lights should be able to stay fairly close to the subjects. Looks like I could save a little money and get the AB400s then instead of the AB800s (should I go the AB route) or equivalent.

[In2Photos]

I think the 'effective rating ' is a bunch of marketing BS (emphasize the sh*t, please) to make a unit appear more appealing to buyers! I once saw a 'shootout' at a tradeshow were a unit advertised as 'effective 1500 w/s' was OUTPERFORMED by another brand who advertised 'real 750w/s'

A professional studio lighting equipment company offers a two light 'portraiture kit' based on a single 500 w/s power pack to power both heads, and that is more than enough to do the job of shooting portraiture.
Thanks Wilt, good stuff to know here.

[JMHPhotography]

Thanks for that John. So for single subjects (or maybe a couple) I should be fine then as the lights should be able to stay fairly close to the subjects. Looks like I could save a little money and get the AB400s then instead of the AB800s (should I go the AB route) or equivalent.

I think that's what I'd do.

[Wilt]

Thanks for that John. So for single subjects (or maybe a couple) I should be fine then as the lights should be able to stay fairly close to the subjects. Looks like I could save a little money and get the AB400s then instead of the AB800s (should I go the AB route) or equivalent.

I am not intimately familiar with the AB lights, but I do seem to recall that one model has a smaller range of power reduction than the other model, so that the 'more powerful' unit is actually capable of outputting LESS light at the lower power setting. Keep this in mind when choosing!

[BLS439]

Now I'm interested. I do lots of sports photos with some athlete lifestyle stuff and "on location" portraits. Most, probably 80%, of my posed portraits will be outdoors. I was using 550's. One 550 into a shoot through umbrella/or bouncing in black/silver umbrella and another 550 into a reflector (usually gold). But I found it was not quite powerful enough to get that dark background and well exposed subject.

I'm in the process of sell that equipment to get either some Quantum's or the Bee's and a pack. I'm thinking the Bee's may be the better choice, but I'm not sure which power to get. I was planning on the 800's or maybe the biggest guy, 1200? or was it 1600?.

[JMHPhotography]

I am not intimately familiar with the AB lights, but I do seem to recall that one model has a smaller range of power reduction than the other model, so that the 'more powerful' unit is actually capable of outputting LESS light at the lower power setting. Keep this in mind when choosing!

Definately... GOOD CALL Wilt!

This is why I bought the two J-160's. I had three 110's but the power controls only allowed for full or ½ on the 110's. Which meant only 110 or 55 w/s. The 160's are more powerful, but offered variable output from full to 1/8 which meant I could actually set these lights from 20 to 160 w/s and this made it so much easier to use in the space I'm in since the 55w/s would still be too much in some cases.

[In2Photos]

I think that's what I'd do.
Thanks again John

I am not intimately familiar with the AB lights, but I do seem to recall that one model has a smaller range of power reduction than the other model, so that the 'more powerful' unit is actually capable of outputting LESS light at the lower power setting. Keep this in mind when choosing!
Wilt, they all show 5 stops (full to 1/32 power) of power range. Maybe that was in an older unit. Thanks again though for the info.


RONALD, sorry to hijack but I think this info is useful to you as well.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

I don't want to chance getting the 400 and not having enough power. It won't always be a single person or in a small space. I don't get that idea of not being able to turn it down far enough. Can't you just increase the shutter speed if it's too bright? Or lower the ISO? I mean heck..I've got ISO 50.

Thing is, I'm looking to purchase in oh...say 5 minutes. :lol: I've got $380 at my immediate disposal.

another question yet...would a 60" umbrella be overkill?

[In2Photos]

I don't want to chance getting the 400 and not having enough power. It won't always be a single person or in a small space. I don't get that idea of not being able to turn it down far enough. Can't you just increase the shutter speed if it's too bright? Or lower the ISO? I mean heck..I've got ISO 50.

Thing is, I'm looking to purchase in oh...say 5 minutes. :lol: I've got $380 at my immediate disposal.

another question yet...would a 60" umbrella be overkill?
Remember Ron that with strobes you are limited to your max sync speed, which is 1/200 on the 5D.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

LOL...12'x24'x12' is a small space? Yeah, I guess I'll mainly be in small spaces, then. :lol:

You really think the 800 will be too much? Even if I'm using a softbox or shoot-thru?

I'll tell you what I'm going to be doing first thing (an assignment of sorts from the owner of the opera house). He wants some dramatic portraits of a couple of the actors for the next show, "Jekyll and Hyde". What I'm envisioning, basically, is one of "Jekyll", softly lit on one side, and the other side of the face fading into blackness. Same for "Hyde", but from the other side. I know I could get that basically done with a single speedlite, but I guess I'm not understanding the "not being able to turn it down enough" theory.

[Wilt]

I don't want to chance getting the 400 and not having enough power. It won't always be a single person or in a small space. I don't get that idea of not being able to turn it down far enough. Can't you just increase the shutter speed if it's too bright? Or lower the ISO? I mean heck..I've got ISO 50.

Thing is, I'm looking to purchase in oh...say 5 minutes. :lol: I've got $380 at my immediate disposal.

another question yet...would a 60" umbrella be overkill?

1. Shutter speed does nothing with electronic flash...the amount of light output by the flash is the entire control you have (which is also affected by light-to-subject distance!), f/stop, or ISO setting will control exposure! Sometimes in spite of all this control, you still cannot use a large enough f/stop, then your only remaining choices are ND filters on the lights and/or lens!

2. IF your flash head has wide enough coverage to fill the 60" umbrella at the normal mounting point of the flash, no it is not overkill. But if the flash has to be placed away from the umbrella in order to fill its diameter with light, then you might as well buy a smaller umbrella!

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Remember Ron that with strobes you are limited to your max sync speed, which is 1/200 on the 5D.


I understand, but doesn't that seem extremely idiotic? On Canon's part, that is. I can't imagine being limited like that. So basically, say I'm at ISO 50, f/5.6 (just go with it..lol), and what...1/32? Seems bright.

Oh hell...so what, I should go with the 400, then?

[In2Photos]

I understand, but doesn't that seem extremely idiotic? On Canon's part, that is. I can't imagine being limited like that. So basically, say I'm at ISO 50, f/5.6 (just go with it..lol), and what...1/32? Seems bright.

Oh hell...so what, I should go with the 400, then?
Ron, that response by me about the sync speed was not what you needed to know. Wilt has your answer.

1. Shutter speed does nothing with electronic flash...the amount of light output by the flash is the entire control you have (which is also affected by light-to-subject distance!), f/stop, or ISO setting will control exposure! Sometimes in spite of all this control, you still cannot use a large enough f/stop, then your only remaining choices are ND filters on the lights and/or lens!

2. IF your flash head has wide enough coverage to fill the 60" umbrella at the normal mounting point of the flash, no it is not overkill. But if the flash has to be placed away from the umbrella in order to fill its diameter with light, then you might as well buy a smaller umbrella!

[Wilt]

I understand, but doesn't that seem extremely idiotic? On Canon's part, that is. I can't imagine being limited like that. So basically, say I'm at ISO 50, f/5.6 (just go with it..lol), and what...1/32? Seems bright.

Oh hell...so what, I should go with the 400, then?

Not idiotic at all...simple physics of focal plane shutter at work with electronic flash. You're lucky you haven't experienced film SLRs with 1/60 synch speed limit! The shutter speed is determined by the shortest time where the film curtains expose the entire area of the film/sensor to the very brief flash output duration. (HSS is an animal of a different type, with side effect of rapidly dropping light output and reduced range!)

[JMHPhotography]

LOL...12'x24'x12' is a small space? Yeah, I guess I'll mainly be in small spaces, then. :lol:

You really think the 800 will be too much? Even if I'm using a softbox or shoot-thru?

I'll tell you what I'm going to be doing first thing (an assignment of sorts from the owner of the opera house). He wants some dramatic portraits of a couple of the actors for the next show, "Jekyll and Hyde". What I'm envisioning, basically, is one of "Jekyll", softly lit on one side, and the other side of the face fading into blackness. Same for "Hyde", but from the other side. I know I could get that basically done with a single speedlite, but I guess I'm not understanding the "not being able to turn it down enough" theory.

lol... Trust me Ron... 8' of that 24' is used for the makeup and storage area... and another 6' is used for background to subject seperation. 12' side to side is really not much when you think about it. If you put your subject in the center of that space, you really only have 6' to work with for any kind of side 90° lighting... you can get more distance if you are using 45° lighting but you're still up against the wall with the lightstand. And if you're firing through an umbrella which is what I do... some of that light that reflects of the inside of the umbrella does bounce off the wall and contribute to the lighting.... I had to put a black panel up on the wall for that shot of my friend to get the more directional look from the light.

I'll let you know about the softbox thing when I get mine... they're on the way from Adorama. Nice thing there is I'll be using all of the light instead of dealing with any spill or bounced. But with a softbox, you want to get it as close to your subject as possible to increase the perceptual size of the lightsource which will both soften the light further to reduce harsh shadows, and increase the size of the reflections in the eyes to give a more natural window look. I'm hoping that I'll be able to get my lights a bit closer now as opposed to the umbrellas.

[In2Photos]

I understand, but doesn't that seem extremely idiotic? On Canon's part, that is. I can't imagine being limited like that. So basically, say I'm at ISO 50, f/5.6 (just go with it..lol), and what...1/32? Seems bright.

Oh hell...so what, I should go with the 400, then?
I thought Skip did a great job explaining the focal plane shutter and thought it could be used here as well:

Nanko - hopefully this (which I copied from an old post) will help you understand what the "max sync speed" thing is all about. It all has to do with the way focal plane shutters work:

Focal plane shutters (common on SLR cameras) consist of two "curtains", usually made of rubberized cloth (in old film cameras) or very thin metal. The first curtain (which I will call the "leading" curtain) normally covers the film or sensor, hiding it from the light coming through the lens. When you take a photo, the leading curtain moves across the film/sensor to expose it to the light. After the leading curtain has moved, another curtain (which I will call the "trailing" curtain) starts to move, again covering the film/sensor to hide the light from it.

At shutter speeds below the "Max Sync Speed", the leading curtain travels all the way across the film/sensor, fully opening the film/sensor to the light, before the trailing curtain starts to move. At higher shutter speeds, the trailing curtain starts to move before the leading curtain has completely travelled across the film/sensor. What happens to create the very fast "shutter speeds" is that an open slot between the two curtains travels across the film/sensor.

While old focal plane shutters (like in my Nikon F cameras from the 1960's) travelled horizontally, the shutters in most modern SLR's travel across the short distance of the film/sensor frame. The concept of "curtains" turns into one of "blades", but the travel concept is still the same. The leading blade moves first, uncovering the film/sensor, and the trailing blade follows, covering up the film/sensor.

The advantage of the blade style of focal plane shutter is that it can move across the whole film/sensor area faster than the old style curtains. Thus, the maximum sync speed is higher than in the old cameras (max 1/60 for my old Nikon F's, and 1/250 for the 20D).

The concept of a maximum sync speed, however, still applies. If you try to use a flash at higher shutter speeds (faster than the shutter speed at which the leading curtain/blade is fully open before the trailing curtain/blade starts to move), part of the film/sensor will be covered by one or the other of the curtains/blades when the flash (with a very short duration) goes off. Part of the film/sensor will not "see" the light from the flash, and that part of the image will be either black or very dark.

[Wilt]

I'll let you know about the softbox thing when I get mine... they're on the way from Adorama. Nice thing there is I'll be using all of the light instead of dealing with any spill or bounced. But with a softbox, you want to get it as close to your subject as possible to increase the perceptual size of the lightsource which will both soften the light further to reduce harsh shadows, and increase the size of the reflections in the eyes to give a more natural window look. I'm hoping that I'll be able to get my lights a bit closer now as opposed to the umbrellas.

The lightbox will generally put the front surface of the light emitting area closer than if you tried with the umbrella (which has the center shaft and the light stand between its reflective surface and the subject). But the lightbox will not reduce light much at all...the both lose comparable amount of light (compared to bare head)

[JMHPhotography]

The lightbox will generally put the front surface of the light emitting area closer than if you tried with the umbrella (which has the center shaft and the light stand between its reflective surface and the subject). But the lightbox will not reduce light much at all...the both lose comparable amount of light (compared to bare head)

Even with an inner baffle in the softbox?

[Wilt]

Even with an inner baffle in the softbox?

That second baffle helps some, but not as much as you might want. Don't forget that the light emitting surface is CLOSER by the depth of the box and the distance behind the stand where the umbrella surface would otherwise be!

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Well I just bought the 400 with the light stand, a gold/silver umbrella and a white/silver one. Came to about $340. We'll see, huh?

How long do the bulbs last in these pups? Should I have more on hand?

[In2Photos]

Well I just bought the 400 with the light stand, a gold/silver umbrella and a white/silver one. Came to about $340. We'll see, huh?

How long do the bulbs last in these pups? Should I have more on hand?
From ABs manual:

The flashtubes used in AlienBees units have a life expectancy of well over 100,000 flashes, and depending on use they will typically provide over 250,000 flashes.

The modeling light is a standard lightbulb, available at any hardware store.

[Wilt]

I've not had a flashtube failure yet (knock on wood) but it is wise to have a spare flashtube if used professionally...Muphy's Law of LIghting also says, "When something can go wrong, it will and at the most inopprtune time". I have had modelling lights fail.

[JMHPhotography]

That second baffle helps some, but not as much as you might want. Don't forget that the light emitting surface is CLOSER by the depth of the box and the distance behind the stand where the umbrella surface would otherwise be!


ah... yes. Good point.

[In2Photos]

I've not had a flashtube failure yet (knock on wood) but it is wise to have a spare flashtube if used professionally...Muphy's Law of LIghting also says, "When something can go wrong, it will and at the most inopprtune time". I have had modelling lights fail.
Another good point. Not like you can go to Wal-Mart and get another one either. Kinda like carrying extra batteries for the camera/flash.

[Wilt]

Another good point..

Yes, I have been sometimes accused of having a pointed head!

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Well, got my setup today. Works great. Only thing is, I can see where I'd need more power for groups. Kinda wish I'd gotten the 800 instead. So, looks like I'm ordering an 800 to pair with it, and I figure I'll use the 400 as a fill light.

[Wilt]

I've heard AB has a good program for trading up. Perhaps you can tell them that you tried the 400 and want to trade up immediately!

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Really?? How do I go about that? Just e-mail them?

[Wilt]

Dunno, I don't own the lights. Someone on this forum posted that information within the past few weeks, I believe! Call or write them and play dumb and ask!!!