Adobe RGB or sRGB on Canon i950

[T_O_M]

Should I use Adobe RGB or sRGB workspace when printing on the Canon i950? From what I have read the i950 is an sRGB printer and best results are obtained using sRGB workspace. When I print using the auto setting both ARGB & sRGB look the same, if I use ICM setting ARGB looks dull. Does anyone have any tips for printing with aRGB or should I stick with sRGB? I am shooting with a 10D in RAW converting from capture one and printing from Qimage or PS CS with the same results, monitor is calibrated with adobe gamma and my sRGB prints match my monitor.

Tom.
--
It doesn't matter what brand lens you use, it’s what you do with it.

[Jesper]

You should use a proper ICC profile for your printer / paper / ink combination. Use a colour management aware application, such as Photoshop, for printing. Select the printer ICC profile in Photoshop. Set the printer driver to "No color adjustment" (I don't know how / where you have to do this in the driver for your printer, but you should make sure the printer driver doesn't try to adjust the colours).

When you do this, Photoshop will convert the colours of the source image into the correct colours for the printer. It doesn't matter in that case if the source image is in sRGB, ARGB or something else. ...Well, ARGB is a wider colour space than sRGB, so in principle you could have more colours if your source image is in Adobe RGB.

[maderito]

Tom,

What is the color space setting you've chosen for the 10D - sRGB or Adobe RGB? What's the working space you're using in Photoshop.

1. Set the working space of PS to the same as the camera.

2. If you're using Adobe RGB, you have to assign (tag) your image with that profile when loading into PS. (The print arrives from the camera untagged when shooting Adobe RGB).

3. When printing, set the source space to whichever you're using (Adobe RGB or sRGB) and the print space to "Printer Color Management."

4. In the Canon printer dialogue, set media to "Photo Paper Pro" and check auto. Do NOT check ICM. (I hope you're using Photo Paper Pro!)

Reportedly, the gamut of the i950 is wider than sRGB, so you can use either Adobe RGB or the smaller gamut sRGB.

These recomendations are based on Photoshop 7.0 which I believe has the same color management system as PS CS.

[Vegas Poboy]

Just for info Adobe RGB files are used best when printing & srgb format is basically used for web photos. True you must calibrate & setup Camera, printer & monitor with the same color management.

[T_O_M]

Woody,

Have been printing with your above method. I am using Photo Paper Pro and Epson Premium Glossy 6x4 with PPP setting (almost the same look as PPP slightly duller). Have just tried some test prints again (above method) and aRGB look duller (same results in Qimage and PS CS), I would expect more vibrant picture because of larger gamut when printing. Is my soulution custom printer profiles or is the i950 not capable of producing prints with aRGB. I am happy with my sRGB prints as they look the same as my monitor and I do understand aRGB will not look the same as my monitor (sRGB). But have reading on the net how everyone recomends to print and work in aRGB and convert to sRGB for the web.

Regards Tom.

[maderito]

Woody,

Have been printing with your above method. . .Have just tried some test prints again (above method) and aRGB look duller (same results in Qimage and PS CS), I would expect more vibrant picture because of larger gamut when printing.

Tom - Are the original images out of the camera taken in Adobe RGB or sRGB color space? If they are sRGB images, you can't improve them by printing or converting them to the Adobe RGB space. If the camera images are Adobe RGB, how do you handle tagging them when they are loaded into PS? And finally, what is the working color space while you're in PS - sRGB or Adobe RGB? - Woody

[T_O_M]

Woody,

Shots were taken in RAW and made same image in aRGB & sRGB from capture one so I could compare diferences when printing. Have posted this question in another forum and some people are saying the i950 is only a sRGB printer while others say to use custom profiles to print aRGB.

Thanks Tom.

[chris.bailey]

Woody,

Shots were taken in RAW and made same image in aRGB & sRGB from capture one so I could compare diferences when printing. Have posted this question in another forum and some people are saying the i950 is only a sRGB printer while others say to use custom profiles to print aRGB.

Thanks Tom.

Very few printers, as I understand it, can print the full AdobeRGB gamut and you will get a better impression of how your prints will look by setting up the proofing bit of CS and proofing on screen (provided that is properly calibrated) before printing. I have spent an eternity and a small fortune trying to get an accurately colour managed setup and not yet managed to do it perfectly. I do have a setup though which I am happy with the prints from but they are not accurate!

[John_T]

Don't remember where I saw it, maybe on FM, but the i9 series have a wider gamut than sRGB and perhaps as wide as AdobeRGB. In any case, it pretty much depends on the image whether the wider gamut would be noticeable, if at all. It's difficult to beat the i9 series color rendering in any case, so splitting hairs takes more energy that it's worth.

[maderito]

Tom -- One more try; bear with me.

1. Under Color settings:
Choose RGB working space - Adobe RGB 1998 or sRGB
Color Management Policies:
-Preserve embedded profiles
-Check "ask when opening" for profile mismatches or missing profiles

2. If shot in Adobe RGB it will come into PS as untagged. When the image is opened, PS will ask whether to assign a profile. Yes. Assign the Adobe RGB profile. If shot in sRGB and your PS working space is Adobe RGB, PS will ask whether to preserved the embedded (sRGB) profile. Yes.

- um... maybe you want to edit the image at this point :)

3. In print preview, set
-Source space: Adobe RGB or sRGB as appropriate
-Print space, two options
A. Printer color management (logical)
B. "Same as Source" (illogical)

The "Same as Source" option is the one I usually use, even though option A is the most appropriate choice. Others have confirmed that option B works well with Canon printers. I don't know why. For the average print, it doesn't matter which option I use, but occasionally, an image will match my monitor better with option B.

4. In the Canon driver dialogue select proper print media and check "auto" in the Canon driver dialogue. If you want the ultimate image, check "custom" and re-set quality from "2" to "1". In my experience, on first viewing images printing with this finer print resolution, it looks better. A day later, I can't honestly choose between the #2 and #1 quality prints without looking real closely under very good light.

5. Avoid shooting in one color space and working in another color space. If shooting in sRGB, edit, process and print as an sRGB image; ditto for Adobe RGB.

That covers some of the most obvious pitfalls in managing the camera to printer workflow. If still not satisfied, time to calibrate and profile that monitor (and/or ask someone else to correct any mistakes in the advice I've given).

An afterthought: as an exercise:
-Shoot a colorful image in sRGB and Adobe RGB.
-Load both images into PS as untagged.
-View each image via Image->Mode->Assign profile-> sRGB or Adobe RGB and check the preview box.

This will give you an idea of what happens which you assign the right/wrong profile to an image. Well saturated colors in Adobe RGB images will look dull when assigned to the sRGB color space. sRGB images assigned an Adobe RGB profile will look the same. I'm referring here to assigning profiles - not converting from one to another. That's another story.

Hopefully this is helpful - and the errors are few :)
For more info: http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps8-colour/ps8_1.htm
Also: download the "full spectrum Adobe RGB image" from a good Bruce Fraser article on color managment: http://www.creativepro.com/img/story/img_12641_1.jpg

[T_O_M]

Woody,

I am shooting in RAW, I process the same shot in Capture One and assign aRGb for one picture and with the same shot assign sRGB for another picture. I have created two picture from the same shot one in aRGB the other sRGB. I have printed both image in two ways in PS CS, all workflow settings are correct for each image before printing.

First way with print space- printer color managment, set to auto.
resutl aRGB looks duller than sRGB, yellows oranges blues duller.

Second way with print space- BJ color printer profile 2000.
result aRGB and sRGB look the same.

Now I can not get the aRGb image to look better when printed than the sRGB. Some people on another forum have told me when you pick the printer profile or use the ICM setting in the printer prefrences that it converts the image to sRGB. Other people have told me to use custom profiles for better results.

I hope this explains what I am doing a bit better.

Regards Tom.

[maderito]

Woody,
I am shooting in RAW

We're not communicating on one essential point. You're shooting in RAW - BUT are in your camera parameter setting (in the menu) are you shooting "standard" = sRGB or "Adobe RGB"?

[T_O_M]

Woody,

The camera color space setting only effects the JPEG image or when shooting in RAW the embeded JPEG or the sets default color space when using the File Viewer Utility for conversion (color space can be changed in color setting). When using Capture One you select what color space you want in the workflow settings.

Tom

[maderito]

Woody,
The camera color space setting only effects the JPEG image or when shooting in RAW the embeded JPEG or the sets default color space when using the File Viewer Utility for conversion (color space can be changed in color setting). When using Capture One you select what color space you want in the workflow settings.
Tom

Got it :!: Apologies - the confusion was at my end, not yours.

Several final comments - some of which have been made already in this thread:

1. Using ICM presumes the image is sRGB. Therefore, an Adobe RGB image printed with ICM will look tend to look duller. Some well saturated color numbers in the Adobe RGB space map to duller appearing colors in the sRGB space. That's the price you pay by restricting the color space to sRGB.

2. I've never found a color profile - Canon BJC 1999, 2000 or 3rd party profiles - that works well when defined as the Print Space Profile in Photoshop. Don't know why. Doesn't matter if the profile-based color conversion is done in PS (and printer color management disabled in the printer) or the profile is sent to the printer for color management.

3. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not clear whether the Canon printer color space is greater than sRGB or not. As far as I know, Canon hasn't said. And there is no real documentaiton from Canon on these color management issues we've been discussing.

4. I'm not typically worried whether I can make a print brighter by changing color space. I'm only concerned that the image looks similar on my monitor as the final print. "Duller" images typically occur if an input color space is Adobe RGB and the output space is sRGB.

This may leave your original question unanswered. But I don't see any advantage to shooting or processing in sRGB unless your output is to the web. If you're making prints, stick to Adobe RGB - even if the prints look the same when assigned sRGB or Adobe RGB profiles. Some output device (monitor or printer) - maybe not yours - can display the difference if the original image has colors outside the sRGB gamut.

My strong bias is that the Canon print driver assumes that we're dumb. It will print superb images if we just send along the image document with no instructions or profiles. From what I read, Epson printer drivers are more discerning and thus more suitable for serious folks who want to manipulate the color management workflow.

Thanks for helping me beat this topic to death :)

[John_T]

Nice to follow an intelligent and clear exchange. I enjoyed it!

Comment: in the printer driver dialog under Print Quality > Custom > Set > Quality slider, the more you slide toward Fine 1, the slower the print head passes. Fine 1 is especially useful for slow drying papers or papers that don't take the inks so well. Paper manufactures like Ilford or Tentenal will sometimes recommend this setting in the guide sheet in the paper box and on their websites.

Tip: Periodically check the printer preferences settings under Start > Printers and Faxes > right click Canon i9xxx > select Printing Preferences. Here is where to check that your printer settings are "clean" when you print in all programs and there is no setting three menus deep you forgot about and you get oddities you can't immediately trace.

I'm sure you know this, but PPP prints will only start looking as they should after an hour of setting/drying, and depending on room humidity, after 24 hours. This true of a number of other papers too.

Important: I have found that trying to find the right settings, profiles, etc. using my own images can be maddening because it is hard to be objective about it, and the image content may not represent the whole spectrum of factors. For all experiments with calibration, settings and profiles, I use the PhotoDisc target image which contains all image variations you need to get consistent and known results. You can get it easily here:

http://raph.levien.com/files/

or here under Get a Good File:

http://www.gballard.net/nca.html#getagoodfile

[T_O_M]

Thanks Woody and John_T for all your help and tips. I will look in custom profiles to see if this can help me, but that's another topic another time.

Regards Tom.