Legality Question

[poolstok]

Sigh....

Ya.

I do a day spa shoot for a client. The client does not want to pay me the balance. Why? Because I took crappy photos that was not anything like they wanted.

Enter stage left me...

OK, so I am speaking to the PA-ish lady (Methinks she is PA to boss-man client) (who would also be a model on the day of the shoot) and we are discussing all the nitty gritty stuff. Please remember that we need the images urgently. I ask for a list of items they want photographed. Yeah, she will provide it, or I can use the current price list as reference. No, list please. Ok. List.

Organise to do shoot on sunday so that no customers will be disturbibg the shoot. Please remember that we need the images urgently.

Organize planning session 1 week before shoot. Pitch up Sunday morning 09h00 as organised. Sleepy voice of lady B over intercom says to hold on, has to dress up, just out of bed. Wait 20 minutes on sidewalk. Very sleepy and annoyed lady in robe opens up. I can she that she will be about as much help as a oil heater on a summer day. Great. I ask her questions about what is needed etc... and lady B says that she does not know, boss man knows. OK. So i stick around, and me and my assistant plan what we think will work, trying our best to avoid the local wildlife. Eventually leave.

During the week before the shoot, PA-ish lady says that she will not be there in the morning, going away for the weekend, and that she will join us later. OK. No list ready yet. Repeat request for list. Ok.

Day of shoot. No list. OK. I go with what I understand they wanted, which is taking images of models doing relaxing and ooh-ing and aah-ing activities - not too much attention on the architecture, but do shoot items they requested in previous discussions - more focussing on the services and tranquility thing.

Problem. Clients. Guy treating a woman to a day at the spa. Ask if they would mind / like to be in the images. They say no. Understandable, so the whole day I have to shoot in such a way so as not to get them in the images, and not to disturb paying customers. Staff can't help me on demand because they have to treat clients therefore some shots does not get taken like massage shots. Eventually they say we can do a couple of shots while they get their massage. Obviously I have to be in and out in max time, without making noise or disrupting the massage process. End up with taking no long exposure shots, but using bouncy flash. Images look terrible. In the process, the masseus places a too hot stone on the back of the chick. She is not too happy.

AAAAAAnyway. After filtering I deliver the cd a couple of days later with images and explain the post editing and HDR process. Not convinced they understand.

Some time later I call boss-man to see if they are happy. No. He has not seen the images, but apparently the images are out of focus and wotnot.

Gnnnnnfffghhhg!

I give some time for him to see the images.

about a week? later Boss-man phones me and complains thet the images is not what he had in mind. He wanted more of the premices and fascilities than what I deliverd. I point out that I never received my list, but never the less, I should have given more attention to the premices and fascilities. I'll do a re-shoot.

OK, let's meet up to discuss this - when will work? I hear PA-ish lady tell him that on day X (can't recall what day) she is at the spa, and then he could come as well. He relays the message to me. Great, let's sort this out. Please remember that we need the images urgently.

Now, you know when you walk into a place and whatever you came for is not there or not ready? That pre-bad-news-feeling? Feel that on day X as I walk into the place. None of the two is there. I phone PA-ish lady. She is out of town. I phone boss-man. He never knew about the meeting. Anyway, I'll do a re-shoot on Monday morning. Lets meet and discuss it.

Gnnnnnfffghhhg!

OK, we'll meet Thursday at 08h00. Good. Let's get tis sorted.

You know that feeling of deja-vu mixed with that feeling when you walk into a place and that what you came for is not ready or not there? Well, now I do.

Phone Boss-man. He sound surprised, and he is in another part of town.

Parental advisory images flash in front of eyes.

OK, well, the shoot is monday, and I need a list this time. He tells me over the phone what he wants done. I ask for a list. He can't deliver a list as he is going out of the country over the weekend, and will be away for some time. I ask him fo fax / mail me or his staff a list. Models? I need not worry - he will organise a model. OK. I will deliver the CD ASAP. No, no need. I can deliver when he gets back from abroad. I wonder what happened to the urgency.

Monday. There is a feeling that you expect the feeling of deja-vu mixed with that feeling when you walk into a place and that what you came for is not ready or not there?. I felt it on Monday. No list.

Many clients. No model. One of the staff (Girl C) was asked to model, but she clearly does not want to. What do I do? Improvise with other staff - Lady B and some more.

Do what I can with all the customers and what I remember from the phone conversation. This time focus on the building itself. Again staff tells me to ask a client for massage shots. Client is happy and signs model release. Show images to Lady B and she also reckons it is OK. (No sign of PA-ish lady).

Shoot done, leave.

Lady B phones me on wednesday or thursday and ask where the images are? Please remember that we need the images urgently.

My eye start to twitch. OK, I'll try to deliver on Friday, but most probably monday.

Deliver images on Monday - this time on DVD with ALL the images from both shoots. All is good.

Two days later - get a phone call from one of the staff - Girl C - she can not open the images. What about this urgency thing I wonder? I mean, two days later. I Ask her if she had it in a DVD drive? Yes. Does she know the difference - they look just like CD drives. Yes. I ask het to make sure.

She phones later and says that she had it at two different postal- related shops, and nobody could open the files. OK, I'll come and have a look tonight. Write new CD anyway. Pitch up at spa, ask to see DVD so I can test it on my laptop. Nope. It's gone. OK. Show Lady D the new CD, and shows that image open. Great. Everybody happy.

Time pass.

Time Pass.

I phone boss-man and ask if they are happy. Nope, he has not seen the images yet.

time pass

time pass

Probably 2.5 weeks passed by now.

I phone boss-man. He says that he is told that the people at the spa can not open the images.

GNNNNNAAAAA!!

I explain to him what happened and all that. Ah.

time pass

time pass

I Phone Boss-man and ask if he has any news for me. He is waiting for the brochures to be printed. Expecting it soon. I say OK. hang up.

My mind runs around to understand what the brochures has to do with my job. Anyway, let sleeping lions sleep.

I phone Boss-man. He is waiting for the brochures. Expecting it on tuesday. OK.

Tuesday come, tuesday go.

Today.

I phone bossman and ask whassup. He says he has not seen yhe images and will not pay me untill he does. I say that I can not wait indefinitely untill he decides to look at the images one day. He points out that I stuffed up the images from day one, and that I will wait for him. I begin to point out that I repeatedly requested a list and he puts the phone down in my ear.

I phone back, and arguement begins. He will not pay untill I finish the job and shoot what he wants. I will shoot more, but at extra pay. No, I will finish because I did not do what they wanted. I asked for a list from him and PA-ish lady and never got one. Why did I do the shoot if I had no list then? Becaus it was so UURRGGEENNTT. Who said it was urgent?

Small vein in my brain threaten to burts.

I say, OK, lets call it quits, no extra pay, no extra work, forget about the balance, but then no images gets used. Only if I refund him his deposit. I say no. He says yes. I say no, and untill he pays up in full, he is not allowed to use my images.

we both go Warra-warra-warra.

We decide that PA-is lady will phone me and make an appointment for us to meet. I ask if they will show up this time.

ANyway. Still waiting for PA-is lady to phone.

Any advice? I would like to take a lawyer along to this meeting, but can not afford it.....

At least I know Sarel will be amused. Like he says - these things allways happens to me!

Later

Pool

[TeeJay]

And the winner for the longest post ever goes to..........

Hope you get it sorted, but I can't remember what it is needs sorting.... it was that long ago..... :-)

[TeeJay]

I've only just noticed.... that at the top left, alongside the very first post in the thread, it tells you how long ago you started to read it!

[tlc]

three words.

payment in advance. :p

[René Damkot]

Bad luck.
If they use the images, they are going to have to pay. Otherwise, it's a very difficult situation. You've lost this client anyway, so there's no need to be overly nice. I would not reshoot unless for extra pay.

[ssim]

It really is much easier to place the blame on someone else. It would appear that there is a whole lot of finger pointing going on in this from both sides.

I have yet to meet a customer that doesn't have a sense of urgency in wanting their product yesterday. I take this with a grain of salt and tell them what I can deliver based on what they want. You let them bully you with this statement when from the course of events as you laid them out it wasn't really true.

I think one of the errors you made was that it doesn't appear that you had a contract of any sorts other than a oral one. Was there no chain of emails that you could have used for this. I do a significant amount of my business with corporate clients and most of these do come through one advertising agency that I work for. I have a standard contract that deals with things such as price, delivery timelines etc. There is no contract in the world that will cover absolutely every little thing that a customer could or would want. At the end of the conversations, meetings and/or emails I send them a letter of understanding on what I will deliver and what the expectations are of them. It is clearly stated that if they do not deliver on what they have to, be it a clear area free from people not involved in the shot to employees who will stand in as models and will sign a model release, I reserve the right to defer the shoot until all conditions are such that I can deliver the product as originally agreed to. Might sound hard but I've been the route that you are just going through and it is not any fun.

It matter not whether you do this full time or are a weekend warrior doing this. The documentation and agreements protect both parties and avoid all of the post shooting finger pointing. Early on in this process I would have sent him an email (with a return reciept) outlining the details as they had been verbally agreed to. If any of his staff had screwed up to the point where it is affecting his opinion of your results, he needs to know that.

You made the point many times in your post that you needed a list but when you didn't have it you still went ahead. The way you have portrayed this list it was a real show stopper.

I would agree that this customer is probably lost for good. I would probably just cut my losses and make the best agreement that I could at this point. How long are you prepared to go back and forth on who did what to who and when. From what I have read here you have both made some errors along the way. Try and cut the best deal you can as you can no longer make this customer totally happy. Once they have a bad feeling about you or your work there is very little that you can do to rectify that in the short term.

I learned a long time ago that it is not always possible to get a deposit from a large corporate client. I do work on taking purchase orders and I attach a copy of the contract and letter of understanding to the purchase order. I have yet to be stiffed by any of them. In fact with the advertising agency, I don't even take a purchase order. We have an audit trail of emails and they always pay me within 7-10 days after I deliver.

Have you learned anything from this experience that you will take forward to the next opportunity that you have.

[DocFrankenstein]

Have the contract before you pick up the camera.

[samsen]

three words.

payment in advance. :p

Well said.
With your ability to use words, I see no reason why should you lose in any way.

[DocFrankenstein]

Well said.
With your ability to use words, I see no reason why should you lose in any way.
What do you mean by the last statement? I'm confused.

[rhys]

Seems to me that the company was disorganised and so was the O/P.

Before anything you ask for 50% upfront and the project specifications.
You do the shoot.
You ask for the other 50%.
He pays. You hand over the images.
He does not pay - you do not hand over the images.

If he's unhappy then offer one single reshoot at no extra cost.
If he's still unhappy then he never will be and you will never get his business again so no need to be too bothered about pointing out that you have fulfilled your part of the contract.

[IndyJeff]

As was pointed out earlier, you should have had a contract stating what, when, where, how and for how much before you ever showed up.
Second mistake, going ahead with the shoot based upon what someone else told you was needed. You should have just walked away and said when you have the list, then and only then will the shoot happen.

Since I am not familiar with South African law I can only comment as if this happened in the US.
If this happened to me, I would get all images registered ASAP. I would draft a letter stating that they can not use any of the images until payment in full is made. Then send that by Registered Mail, Return Receipt Requested to the owner of the business. I would state in the letter that the images have been registered and any use would constitute an infringement.

My advice to you now is to ask for the CD's back, and do this at the meeting with no previous hint you will ask for it. Then pay them back the deposit, by check once you have both CD's in hand. Walk away from it and don't ever, ever do work for them again.

[poolstok]

Yep. You are all correct. Thanx for the lengthy reply SSim.

I did learn quite abit out of this, and out of your replies.

But then again,m experience is the best school eh?

Later

Pools