430EX owners- regret not having 580EX?

[tcaran]

Yes, this is another 'which one should I buy?' post. I've read all the stickys and a lot of the related threads and they have been very helpful. Really want to save some money and go with the 430EX, and it seems to be all I'll need but I'm still not sure.

So for any of you 430EX users - are there many situations where you wish you had the 580EX? Thanks!

[In2Photos]

I have yet to come across any situations where I needed the 580. I do not shoot professionally, only stuff of the family, wildlife, and dabble in some macro. The 430 is THE BEST purchase I have made.

[cgratti]

I had the 430EX and 580Ex.. sold the 430 because I didnt use it enough. It was a great flash, but only needing one I kept the better of the 2. If your not using your flash all that much, then the 430 is perfect.

[steve_shelly]

love the 430ex...I don't really know what the 580 would give me...I don't shoot pro, but I can tell you at a family wedding I went manual on the 430 and went full power at the reception to just see how much of the dark room would be lit and it was more than enough to see detail at 60+ feet, although most of everything close was blown out. I really just did it to get an idea of the power that the 430 gave me. For the money I think it was the best thing I ever got.

[rabidcow]

I am a pro shooter and I love my 430EX. The 580EX offers a bit more power, but in those situations I find myself using Normans anyways. Each situation is different though, so look at what you need the flash for and decide.

[tuan209]

I just got the 430ex due to its size, and I couldnt happier. I dont shoot alot of flash so I got the smaller and cheaper of the 2. If you dont use it much, I suggest you get the 430ex.

[Rellik]

I got the 430ex for a month now and it has handled all the situation i've ran into. It really depends what your needs are. The 430ex is definately perfect for me, and just couldn't justify the added price and size for the additional power and features of the 580ex.

[tcaran]

So far it sounds like most of you 430 owners have no regrets. I think it's the way for me to go. Thanks for the knowledgable input.

[digitaljoe]

The 430 is a great flash - I have both. The 580 is more powerful - maybe a cosideration if you use bounce a lot - I would be quite happy with the 430 though.

[jli86]

I'm trying to decide between the two - does the 580 generate more natural looking results than the 430? For me that'll be the deciding factor.

[Curtis N]

does the 580 generate more natural looking results than the 430?Generating natural looking results is a matter of skill and experience, not so much technology. Learning how to bounce the flash, select the most appropriate diffusion device (if any), and balancing flash with ambient light are all skills which take some time to learn.

What the extra stop of power (of the 580 vs. the 430) gives you is the ability to use a smaller aperture or a lower ISO setting in a given situation. In some situations this translates into better image quality through greater depth-of-field or less digital noise. But again, some skill is required to make the most of your flash unit's power, and to know when that power is needed.

[Brian Puccio]

I'll be the odd one here and say I've had my 430EX for a year and I've used it on one occasion. Hooray for fast glass. That being said, I'm debating selling my 430EX but would hate to need it one day. I think the people who need a 580EX are few and far between among the hobbyist level, unless they have a very task specific use for it (such as using it as a master).

[cgratti]

What I miss in the 430 is the size... The 580 is bigger and heavier....

[::John::]

I have the 430 and I bought it based on cost and need. I don't use a flash often and it has done what I have asked of it whenever I have needed it.

I am considering a 580 - because it will act as a master and I could use the 430 as a slave from a different direction - but it won't happen anytime soon because of my infrequent need for flash.

[Spydweb]

Sold my 430, to me it did not have enough power when bounced, your needs may differ. I like the metz 54 flashes better then the canons.

[mikez]

I just wish the 430ex has the light bouncer like the 580ex.

[jli86]

Sorry for being ignorant but what's the light bouncer on the 580?

[mikez]

It's a small white card that you can pull out on top of the flash.

[NormF]

I had my 430 for about three months when I traded it for a 580. I take lots of interior shots were getting lighting across the whole room is important and teh 430 wasn't cutting it. Hindsight, I probably should have kept the 430 and added the 580.

[erdavis]

The 430 is a great flash but doesn't allow hookup of an external power pack. which is a necessity for shooting flash heavy events.

[steved110]

I'm winding up to upgrade from a 380 EX speedlite to the 580 EX.
I certainly don't need to buy this one over the 430 EX, but with current rebates available in the UK, it is much more attractive, and the sale of my 380EX should help towards the cost.

But ultimately it's simply about the desire to have the best flash there is. Right now I use my flash a lot more than most people tho no where near as much as a pro, but I do want to experiment with all the good things the 580EX brings with it. And I don't want to upgrade again.

So while the 430 EX would be more than adequate enough for my needs, it will be the 580EX that satisifies my wants. So I have been saving for longer....what the hey, it's only money.

[Dorman]

Extremely satisfied by my 430ex, gives me all the power and flexibility I need in a smallish package, good price. Nuff said.

[Mcary]

Only one single regret some how I managed to tight my 430 so much that it perminately attached to my flip bracket :(

Besides that if more then meet my needs

Mike

[Lani Kai]

I put some fresh batteries in my 430EX and put it on my 1D and tested its limits... Surprisingly, I filled the buffer on the 1D (21 frames at 8fps) before the flash recycle started to fall behind. Amazing stuff.

[fi20100]

I love the 430EX... only thinking that I might get the 580EX sometime much later if I want to use more than one flash. Still, even then I think the 430EX will work great as a slave :)

[Lightstream]

430EX is great stuff... use it for events and just about everything. When recycle times get too long, it is usually because I am doing something wrong and WAY exceeding the power of my flash.

I have an ST-E2 so I can use the 430EX off-camera. If I had only one 580EX, I would have a master and no slave - so not much help there. I like the light weight of the ST-E2 especially when I don't need a flash on-camera. Wonderful little gadget!

As for bounce cards, search for the "Emergency Bounce Card" for the 430EX. Can't beat that!

[Dale Siscoe]

Hello all ! I have a 420EX and was trying to find out if a 430EX will master my 420 EX as a slave ...cordlessly ? Thanks. Dale

[fi20100]

Hello all ! I have a 420EX and was trying to find out if a 430EX will master my 420 EX as a slave ...cordlessly ? Thanks. Dale


Nope, it will not. 430EX can only work as a slave. You'll need the 580EX to the master, or then the ST-E2 :)

[Curtis N]

You'll need the 580EX to the master, or then the ST-E2Or a 550EX if you can find a used one.

[dmstraton]

I have a 580 and two 430s, plus the ST-E2. I find this is a great set up for creativity due to the amount of options with wireless. I can tell you though that typically I use the ST-E2 with a 430 off-camera when around the house doing snaps of the kid and what not...and if I am not doing serious shots, I use it on camera even before the 580 due the weight...the 580 comes out when I need serious power, and outside (particularly in sunlight) it wins hands down...

[liza]

If you're a hobbyist, get the 430EX and save the extra money to put toward good glass.

[hooookup]

a few weeks ago I shot a segment for a&e's project runway tv show and brought my 580ex and a 420ex. i had an assistant setup on one side of the runway with the 420 and used the 580 adn 70-200 from the other side. Having the 580 definitely helped in this event

[tcaran]

The update - I went for the 430 based on research and all the comments. I'll go for the 580 if I ever need a second flash or my shooting requires the extra power. Until then, I'll put the extra $ toward other things on the list... Thanks all!

[ChopstickHero]

i like my 430EX... very good flash. I have borrowed my friends 580EX and did notice it was a little more powerful. however, i shoot alot of outdoor events and find the 430EX with a diffuser works great for fill flash.

[fi20100]

Tom, I think it was a very sensible decision. Congrats to your new investment! Enjoy!

[Mr. Clean]

The 430 EX also has the one button for tilt and swivel too correct?

[fi20100]

The 430 EX also has the one button for tilt and swivel too correct?


Correct.

[TMR Design]

It seems that if you know specific needs and can assess that you don't need the power then the 430EX makes great sense and saves a bit of money. It would also seem that if you did not know your needs or suspected your needs will grow over time then for the extra money I think it makes sense to go with the 580 EX, which is what I have done.
I would rather have more light than I need and turn it down than to not have enough light and end up getting a second flash or selling off the 430 to get the 580. That's just me...well , maybe not. It would seem that there are many that you can tell they wish they had gotten the 580EX from the start.

Just my observation.

[picturecrazy]

Good decision. You'll love the 430. I have two of both, and the 430 has all the really important features of the 580. The rest for me personally are just 'nice to haves' rather than essentials... if you have only one flash unit.

[Point-N-Shoot]

I understand the need to research a purchase...but in the grand scheme of things we're not talking about investing in a $1500 IS-USM L-series lens here. I've seen brand new (USA warranteed) 430EX's sell for $179 on ebay...that's dinner and a movie fer chrissakes!! And IMHO, if you can afford the DSLR camera that one of these mounts on...you should be able to afford a couple of hunderd additional bucks for a flash. Hell, at less that 200-bucks you'd get your money's worth out of the 430 after six months...if you still need more power THEN go buy the 580EX and keep the 430 as a slave...or sell it and get a portion of your money back!!

My feeling is...if you dont KNOW if you need the additional features of the 580EX or not, you probably DONT. So buy the 430 and be done with it.

[Tumak]

For general flash shooting, I like the 430. My 580 is becoming more of a stay in studio flash. On my flash bracket, the 580 is just too heavy.

[picturecrazy]

...I've seen brand new (USA warranteed) 430EX's sell for $179 on ebay...that's dinner and a movie fer chrissakes!! And IMHO, if you can afford the DSLR camera that one of these mounts on...you should be able to afford a couple of hunderd additional bucks for a flash.

ouch!! I know some people who have saved up their pennies for over a year just to finally afford their DSLR. An extra $200 would have killed them. Dinner and a movie for two can also be done for $12 around here.
Not everybody is drowning in money... it was quite a harmless question.

[Point-N-Shoot]

ouch!! I know some people who have saved up their pennies for over a year just to finally afford their DSLR. An extra $200 would have killed them. <snip>.

Then these people do not need to be looking at the 580EX...therefore, it is a moot point.

Look, I was not trying to be ugly...so if it came across that way, my apologies. However, anyone purchasing the 580EX is going to fall into one of three categories; a working professional, a hobbyist that is taking DSLR photography to the next level, or an individual that has the money to blow and buys high-end equipment that will never be utilized to 1/3 of its potential.

Most of us fall into the second category...and (as hobbies go) DSLR photography is expensive (hell, my PSCS2 software alone was over $1000) and (again INHO) not the best choice for anyone "saving pennies.”
because, whether you are "drowning in money" or not, spending $200 on a flash will be one of the CHEAPEST investments you will make in this hobby.


Also, I realize you can eat out for less than $200 ( although I dont know about 12-bucks...you must live in 1965). However, I was referring to a "night out". I have three teenagers...and its around $150 by the time we're done. Then there's "date night"...my wife and I dont get many of those, so when we do its fine dining or a concert. Again, you're looking at over $100 just for food and a bottle of wine. My wife can testify she's sacrificed more than a few of those for my hobby investments!!

[rklepper]

I had the 430EX and sold it to get the 580EX. I would not say that I regretted buying the 430EX, it is a great flash. It just did not do what I needed it to do. I needed to be able to hook up an external battery pack for faster recharges and I needed the extra power.

[rklepper]

Actually, photography is the cheapest of all my hobbies.



Then these people do not need to be looking at the 580EX...therefore, it is a moot point.

Look, I was not trying to be ugly...so if it came across that way, my apologies. However, anyone purchasing the 580EX is going to fall into one of three categories; a working professional, a hobbyist that is taking DSLR photography to the next level, or an individual that has the money to blow and buys high-end equipment that will never be utilized to 1/3 of its potential.

Most of us fall into the second category...and (as hobbies go) DSLR photography is expensive (hell, my PSCS2 software alone was over $1000) and (again INHO) not the best choice for anyone "saving pennies.”
because, whether you are "drowning in money" or not, spending $200 on a flash will be one of the CHEAPEST investments you will make in this hobby.


Also, I realize you can eat out for less than $200 ( although I dont know about 12-bucks...you must live in 1965). However, I was referring to a "night out". I have three teenagers...and its around $150 by the time we're done. Then there's "date night"...my wife and I dont get many of those, so when we do its fine dining or a concert. Again, you're looking at over $100 just for food and a bottle of wine. My wife can testify she's sacrificed more than a few of those for my hobby investments!!

[Point-N-Shoot]

Actually, photography is the cheapest of all my hobbies.


WOW!! with 2 Canon 30D's and 11 various Canon lenses (8 of them being L's), you must have some nice hobbies!! Its GOOD to be Doc Klepper!

Lemme guess...race car driver and private pilot? Yachting and Polo? Do tell.


Its all relative I suppose. I was comparing photography to scrapbooking or campaign button collecting...you know, the things that people who save their pennies would consider a hobby.

[mrclark321]

ouch!! Dinner and a movie for two can also be done for $12 around here.
.

Damn......$12 for dinner and a movie in Canada for two, were do you live ;)

[rklepper]

WOW!! with 2 Canon 30D's and 11 various Canon lenses (8 of them being L's), you must have some nice hobbies!! Its GOOD to be Doc Klepper!

Lemme guess...race car driver and private pilot? Yachting and Polo? Do tell.


Its all relative I suppose. I was comparing photography to scrapbooking or campaign button collecting...you know, the things that people who save their pennies would consider a hobby.

My 2 other hobbies are collecting antique scientific equipment and rare coins.

[rklepper]

Damn......$12 for dinner and a movie in Canada for two, were do you live ;)

Yeah, we can't even do that here in Iowa, and things are really cheap here compared to other places.

[Point-N-Shoot]

My 2 other hobbies are collecting antique scientific equipment and rare coins.


I collect lint in my navel, but its not really a hobby unless you save it.

[zacwolf]

have the 430, wish i had just saved up and gotten the 580

[Raymate]

Never wished for the bigger brother, buy and enjoy :)

[Nuttcraker]

No regret... don't need wirless tec or the power of 580EX, if you are a pro you should go to 580Ex.

Bests

[braduardo]

Also, I realize you can eat out for less than $200 ( although I dont know about 12-bucks...you must live in 1965).

Canada vs. 1965... Anyone have a rare coin to flip?

[joegolf68]

I will kind of reverse the question: I had my "tutor" over the other day. He/we played with the 580eX, I actually had to take it out of the box for the first time to do this. We/he took multiple pics. He works at a Ritz camera store, owns a 20D and 430EX. He kept saying how amazed he was with the 580. After each shot, he would say, wow, this is awesome. Now... he is a salesman, but when I questioned if he was just being nice, her said no way, he was really impressed with the 580 and would now sell his 430 somehow to upgrade. That all being said, and the rookie I am, I will answer your question backwards, I don't think I will ever regret buying the 580 instead of the 430.

[braduardo]

Unfortunately, he probably bought his 430EX at Ritz and paid as much as you did for your 580EX.

[grick]

Hi,
I've just bought a 430EX ( last one in the jessops shop) got it home and took it out to have a fiddle with. First thing i noticed was how 'sloppy' the head felt. There is some movement and it just doesn't feel like its all that solid when clicking between the graduations.

I haven't been able to try another flash so the simple question is

Is this normal?

Thanks for listening


By the way the flash was £151.40 using jessops 110% offer price matched with their sister website www.cameras2u.com (http://www.cameras2u.com)

[MONK3Y_M4GIC]

430ex can't be used as a master can it?

[fi20100]

430ex can't be used as a master can it?

Nope.

[vic6string]

I think the 430ex is the perfect "first" flash. It takes a while to learn how to really take decent flash photos. There is alot more to think about when using a flash...I mean it is hard enough for some people to think about ONE exposure, now you have to worry about two of them.

The 430 has plenty of power, and is considerably smaller and lighter than the 580. It gives you full ETTL, or full manual. It has fast recycle times (with good batteries), and it saves you some money. Once you feel comfortable with using one flash, and want to begin to explore multi-flash setups, you can then pick up the 580, and keep the 430 as a slave.

[CPA676]

I own both and each is a great flash. They are particularly compatible in a master/slave setup. Otherwise, the 580ex lives on my 40D and the 430ex lives on my G-9. Either of them would be a good choice where a single flash is required.

[Lord_Malone]

Re: 430EX owners- regret not having 580EX?

No. I bought the 580ex first, then I got a 430ex.

Both are great flashes, but if one had to go the 430ex would be it.

[vwjoe76]

Do either the 430 or 580 stand out over the other as far as fill light goes? i.e. backlit subjects and such. I'm a student PJ. --joe

[rhys]

I bought two 580EX2 and a 430EX. I already had the 420EX. Now I think I'd possibly have been better with 4x 580EX (and my 420EX) instead of the 430EX. Sure - I could buy more 580s but I have all I need now. It'd have been a better option, that's all. It's for my portable studio.

[Tumak]

No. I bought the 580ex first, then I got a 430ex.

Both are great flashes, but if one had to go the 430ex would be it.

Same here, but I tend to use the 430EX more for general use because it is lighter. It is amazing how quickly you can make your outfit heavy. :)

[scotteisenphotography]

I have the 430ex and the 580ex II...i used my 430 a ton, ...before i got the 580exII..i dont konw, it seems so much better, the 580 that is....the shots ive taken with a flash and the 580 have a higher use-age rate...the 430ex didnt always light the picture the way i wanted at the same settings...i dont know, but i'd go with the 580

[Perry Ge]

Having the 430 has made me want to get a 580 really badly; I really want to get a flash off camera, and when I do get a 580, it'll be used to wirelessly trigger the 430. So no, I don't REGRET not having a 580EX, but having one would make the 430EX so much better.

[fi20100]

I liked my first 430EX so much that I bought a second one... plus a ST-E2... Now, if money wasn't an issue, I would buy five 580EX II and a few 430EX :)

[Jethro790]

430EX suits me just fine. I have lots of fun with it too, silly stuff...

http://geoffreysworld.com/flashbulb%20jpg%20resized.JPG

[mKreative]

I too am trying to decide which flash to get. If I buy the 430 and want to use it off camera, I need to buy a STE2? But If I buy the 580 I can just use it off camera ?

[fi20100]

No, the 580 still needs to be triggered by something.

[Jethro790]

I too am trying to decide which flash to get. If I buy the 430 and want to use it off camera, I need to buy a STE2? But If I buy the 580 I can just use it off camera ?

No, you need either the 530 or an STE2 to trigger a salve flash like the 430. Either the 530 or the STE2 needs to be mounted on camera to get flash off camera. Or radio triggers.

[mKreative]

So I would have to buy the 580 and the STE2? Sorry if that’s a stupid question. Does anyone use the flashes with a cord? Would that be an cheaper but effective route?

[fi20100]

The cord is pretty short. But if you're not interested in maintaining E-TTL, you can always use some cheap eBay triggers.

[mKreative]

What do you mean by "maintaining E-TTL"?

[fi20100]

If you use the Canon cord or an ST-E2 or a 580EX (or a 550EX I'm sure), you can use E-TTL off camera instead of manual.

[mKreative]

By the way thanks for your help, So I can buy the 430 and use a short canon cord and be okay? There is so much to learn... I just get confused when I read evetything.

[fi20100]

Yes, with the Canon OC-E3 cord you should be fine.

[mKreative]

You are right they are short, 2 feet. That is very limiting. but maybe my only option right now. I am not sure how much I want to invest in all of this right now and purchasing the STE2 is not cheap. The cord isnt very cheap either...$45-60$ on Ebay. Anyone know a better place?

[KarlMarsh]

I just went through this whole decision process myself. I was all set to order the 430 until I found out I could get the 580 from B&H for $339 with all the discounts and rebates. That made it a no brainer for me.

[mKreative]

So you reccomend going through B&H? I just found the 430 on there for $240... I dont know If I need the 580 if the only difference is the power.

[sk8ape]

I' don't know much about off camera flashes ,but I'd like to know if it would be possible to remotely fire aether the 430 or 580 by using a pocket wizard plus II transceiver.

Thanks for any insights on this!

[KarlMarsh]

So you reccomend going through B&H? I just found the 430 on there for $240... I dont know If I need the 580 if the only difference is the power.

Yes I recomend them. I have spent many thousands of dollars there and never had a problem. In general B&H is a very well respected online seller. Many professional photographers use them exclusively.

[mKreative]

Allright it looks like its going to be the 430 for me.

[daniyel]

Well, since I'm pretty much a newbie to flash photography (ignoring the pop-up-flash + white coffee filter...) ... I was wondering what peoples experience with a lens of F/4 (like the 17-40) have been with the 430? Going to be shooting my sister-in-law's wedding this August (more than likely outside), and was looking for something to be a good fill flash, and possibly something I can learn with + use later for jobs (hopefully). :) Yet, mainly I'm curious with peoples experiences with a slower lens. Suppose I could up the iso a bit to 200 to get the 2.8apx out of the lens, but meh. :)

Thanks,
-Dan

[elysium]

Yes, this is another 'which one should I buy?' post. I've read all the stickys and a lot of the related threads and they have been very helpful. Really want to save some money and go with the 430EX, and it seems to be all I'll need but I'm still not sure.

So for any of you 430EX users - are there many situations where you wish you had the 580EX? Thanks!In in all honesty...no.

I own both and started off with the 430EX. Its small and powerful enough for every situation I have needed. I never have needed full power on any flash so thats a plus for me. Recycle speeds have been adequate so I have not been too fussed.

I then purchased the 580EX II which seems to handle just as well apart from recycle times are faster and more light. After my flash comparison thread, I was glad I had both since they "seem" to have provided different results in ETTL even though the test was not 100% precise.

I like having both since I can run a master/slave setup. Given the choice, I would still go for the 430EX for everyday use. The extra features/power would not have been my reason for spending on the 580EX II.

[braduardo]

Well, since I'm pretty much a newbie to flash photography (ignoring the pop-up-flash + white coffee filter...) ... I was wondering what peoples experience with a lens of F/4 (like the 17-40) have been with the 430? Going to be shooting my sister-in-law's wedding this August (more than likely outside), and was looking for something to be a good fill flash, and possibly something I can learn with + use later for jobs (hopefully). :) Yet, mainly I'm curious with peoples experiences with a slower lens. Suppose I could up the iso a bit to 200 to get the 2.8apx out of the lens, but meh. :)

Thanks,
-Dan

Don't be scared... Crank that sucker up. 800-1600 will still look very good.

[fi20100]

Well, since I'm pretty much a newbie to flash photography (ignoring the pop-up-flash + white coffee filter...) ... I was wondering what peoples experience with a lens of F/4 (like the 17-40) have been with the 430? Going to be shooting my sister-in-law's wedding this August (more than likely outside), and was looking for something to be a good fill flash, and possibly something I can learn with + use later for jobs (hopefully). :) Yet, mainly I'm curious with peoples experiences with a slower lens. Suppose I could up the iso a bit to 200 to get the 2.8apx out of the lens, but meh. :)

Thanks,
-Dan

I think the 17-40L + 430EX as fill is a pretty good combination. I used it quite a bit on our honeymoon. Here's an example, a shot of my wife with that combo (btw, it was quite sunny!):

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2062/1741626687_ac6724c1a9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaos2/1741626687/)

I think you'll be fine, especially if you can combine that with a fast prime ;)

[elysium]

Just found the link to my comparison. Do bear in mind this test was bnot 100% strict but in controllable conditions. It gave me a better understanding of how well each work with colours and ETTL.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=484637

After this, I enjoy owning both. :) It has encouraged me to start using my 580EX II more.

[shimmishim]

With flash photography you're going to want to use a smaller aperture anyway such as 5.6 or smaller to get a larger DOF especially for the larger group shots.

I shoot with a 24-105 f/4 indoors with flash but I rarely even shoot at f/4.

You can crank up the ISO but I'm not sure 1600 is absolutely necessary.

I shot a family friend's bat mitzvah with my 24-105 and 70-200 with a 430EX at 1/2 power (manual due to very high ceiling) and got some great results. Here is a group shot. 24mm, flash at 1/2 power manual ISO1600 f/5.6. Flash was bounced off of a high ceiling. You can see the approximate height of the ceiling in the background. (the group is actually looking at the paid photographer)

So to answer the original question posed by the OP, the 430EX was totally worth it!

http://www.johnshim.com/potn/groupshot.jpg





Well, since I'm pretty much a newbie to flash photography (ignoring the pop-up-flash + white coffee filter...) ... I was wondering what peoples experience with a lens of F/4 (like the 17-40) have been with the 430? Going to be shooting my sister-in-law's wedding this August (more than likely outside), and was looking for something to be a good fill flash, and possibly something I can learn with + use later for jobs (hopefully). :) Yet, mainly I'm curious with peoples experiences with a slower lens. Suppose I could up the iso a bit to 200 to get the 2.8apx out of the lens, but meh. :)

Thanks,
-Dan

[photobitz]

NO REGRETS!!!! Especially when you have upgraded from a 420EX. The diffence in functionality is astounding. Of course the 580EX is a step further if you want even more functionality.