Team Pictures

[playinhockey]

I am new to all of this and am going to attempt a team picture for the school yearbook. I have a Rebel and a 17-40 L. I just ordered a 550 flash which will be here tomorrow. Can anyone help me with setting suggestions? I am going to try to get the picture on Friday. These are High School kids and I am going to try to get the photo before their game. Both of these factors won't allow me to play around with different settings durring the shoot. (It's hard enough to get them all together at once).

Coach

[scottbergerphoto]

I am new to all of this and am going to attempt a team picture for the school yearbook. I have a Rebel and a 17-40 L. I just ordered a 550 flash which will be here tomorrow. Can anyone help me with setting suggestions? I am going to try to get the picture on Friday. These are High School kids and I am going to try to get the photo before their game. Both of these factors won't allow me to play around with different settings durring the shoot. (It's hard enough to get them all together at once).

Coach
Set the camera to Auto, the flash to ETTL with the wide angle diffuser down, take a test shot and adjust FEC on the camera untill the histogram is just short of the right side. Don't use the LCD picture as a guide.
That's the easy way and the way I would do it with a bunch of kids running around.
Scott

[DaveG]

I am new to all of this and am going to attempt a team picture for the school yearbook. I have a Rebel and a 17-40 L. I just ordered a 550 flash which will be here tomorrow. Can anyone help me with setting suggestions? I am going to try to get the picture on Friday. These are High School kids and I am going to try to get the photo before their game. Both of these factors won't allow me to play around with different settings durring the shoot. (It's hard enough to get them all together at once).

Coach

First off don't even attempt the shot if the coach isn't around. If you are the coach threaten them big time before the shoot! Groups are mobs and you will get frustrated very quickly with the lack of cooperation if there's no one there to keep the team in check.

Then I would use a manual setting. If the team picture is three rows deep you are going to need at least f8. Have your camera on a tripod and use the longest focal length that you can get away with on the 17-40.

A lot of beginning photographers think that wide angles are designed for group shots and this isn't the case. If you were doing a portrait of a single person you'd want to use a lens in the 80-105 mm length (in regular 24x36 35mm photography). Why would you do this? Because of the more pleasing perspective. So if you are doing a group shot aren't you just taking 18 portrait shots all at once? Don't you still want the nice perspective?

When I'm shooting small family groups I use a portrait length lens, and for a dRebel or my 10D that would be a 50mm. For larger groups at weddings I use a "normal" lens. I'd love to use the portrait lens but I still need to talk to the subjects and I also need to fill flash, and I'd be too far away with the 50.

Inside, if you can, try to use the 17-40 at 35 or so. This is NOT a wide angle focal length so you should not use the wide angle diffuser on the 550EX. Using it will only weaken the flash. I think that the diffuser is designed to be used when the lens is 17 mm or wider and that would be a REAL 17 on 35 mm format, not a 17 on your dRebel.

If you HAVE to use the lens as a wide angle then you have to. But remember that wide angles not only widen left and right but top and bottom so there's going to be more foreground and ceiling than you'll need.

Get a bench ready before the team gets there, get everything set up and if possible have a couple of people sit down so you can take a few practice shots. CHECK THE HISTOGRAM to see how the exposure has turned out. I would expect that you'll have to shoot this at ISO400.

When they come in ask the tallest ones to SIT DOWN. It will come as a great shock to these guys as they've always gotten to stand while making fun of the shorter guys! This means that the tall guy's heads, while sitting down, are closer to the short guy's heads, who are standing up! The game of group shots is to make the heads as big as possible in the smallest space, and this will help.

If you have a decent RAW conversion program - not the crap that comes with the camera - shoot RAW so you can do white balance and such later.

[scottbergerphoto]

Dave G is entitled to his opinion as am I. I'll just add that I use the wide angle diffuser to soften the harsh light of the flash regardless of the focal length of the lens. It works fine at 50mm with subjects 10-15 feet away.
Scott

[DaveG]

Dave G is entitled to his opinion as am I. I'll just add that I use the wide angle diffuser to soften the harsh light of the flash regardless of the focal length of the lens. It works fine at 50mm with subjects 10-15 feet away.
Scott

It won't soften anything. It's a point source of light from that distance whether you use a diffuser or not. It's just a weaker point source with the diffuser.

The only concern is that the beam of light be wide enough to cover both sides of the group. With a normal or moderate wide angle lens and the built in flash zoom, you should get excellent coverage without weakening the flash with the flip down diffuser.

[rodbunn]

You didn't say if you were shooting in or out but my suggestions are;
First of all, make sure CF-14 is set to "1", or you won't get a ballance with the 550EX.
Second of all, if you do shoot "manual" make sure you meter the background and set the F-stop to that. If you did set it to F-8 and the background was say f-5 (and you are using the 550) then you will have to adjust the shutter to get the background to match the foreground (F-8 in this case since you are setting it to F8 manually).....

In manual mode with a flash, the shutter speed determines the background lightness or darkness. The F-stop determines the subject.

Good luck, do some test shots as recommended and look at the histogram. Remember, if they are in white jerseys then the histogram will show lots of white and that will be right!

Rod

[playinhockey]

I prefer to shoot in RAW so I can make adjustments if I need to. Would the setting that sets automatic depth of field keep everyone in focus, or do I use AV and make sure I have a higher f-stop selected?

I will be in an Ice rink with poor lighting and the team will be in white.

Thanks for your help.

[DonCoon]

First of all, make sure CF-14 is set to "1", or you won't get a ballance with the 550EX.
Rod

I thought the Drebel didn't have Custom Functions.

[playinhockey]

Dave, I am the Coach! This makes it even harder because I have to do everything! Sounds like ISO 400, F-8, 35mm should do it. Do I have to set anything on the flash? I also have a 100mm f2 prime, would this be a better lens or would I be to far away? I need to fit 22 people in the picture.

[mohmike]

I don't believe the automatic depth of field setting on the D-Rebel works in any flash mode.

[rodbunn]

Sorry!

[DaveG]

Dave, I am the Coach! This makes it even harder because I have to do everything! Sounds like ISO 400, F-8, 35mm should do it. Do I have to set anything on the flash? I also have a 100mm f2 prime, would this be a better lens or would I be to far away? I need to fit 22 people in the picture.

The 100 would be too long. It's effectively a 160 mm lens on the dRebel. Your 17-40 on about 35 mm will give you what a "normal" lens would and hopefully that'd do.

Have a nice relaxing night going over the instruction book to your 550EX and also have a look at this site: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ for more information. You DO have a type A camera.

I'd have the camera on E-TTL. But check the histogram to make sure that it doesn't over or under expose.

If you have enough time, and can lock down the camera on a tripod so it doesn't move, you could use the manual power settings on the flash. I have no idea what setting would do the trick so you'd have to try 1/1 and shoot. "1/1? No, it over exposed." "1/2? Hmm, still a little over." " 1/4? Ah, right on." That assumes that you've selected f8 and say 1/60 of a second shutter speed.

The best part of doing it this way is that the flash power will be very consistent and it's not being based on anything the flash "sees". But you MUST use the histogram to evaluate the exposures if you try this method.

[playinhockey]

Thanks for your help, I'll give it a try!

[westfalcon1]

playinhockey,

I do group shots frequently both with school teams and college reunions. I do up to 75 people in some pictures. I have a 20-35 and a 17-40. Both lenses are superb. I shoot high quality jpeg with the camera set on manual. I like either f8 or f11 and usually at 125th of a second. I leave plenty of room around the picture to crop, but I shoot at 17 mm. My pictures are razor sharp edge to edge. You need not worry about the background if you ar close to a wall. I shoot a test and adjust my flash to +1,-1 etc to get a good histogram. Thats it !!! Don't make things complicated and don't drag a tripod along unless you are going to use the self timer and be in your picture. I normally use a white lightning on a lightstand but I have used a 550 before and it works fine. Good luck. I'll try to post one of my group pictures on here.

[playinhockey]

I was going to try to get in the picture. Usually what will happen is a parent will offer to take the picture. I really don't like that happening so I think the tripod is the best answer. Thanks everyone for the tips.

Coach

[scottbergerphoto]

Dave G is entitled to his opinion as am I. I'll just add that I use the wide angle diffuser to soften the harsh light of the flash regardless of the focal length of the lens. It works fine at 50mm with subjects 10-15 feet away.
Scott

It won't soften anything. It's a point source of light from that distance whether you use a diffuser or not. It's just a weaker point source with the diffuser.

The only concern is that the beam of light be wide enough to cover both sides of the group. With a normal or moderate wide angle lens and the built in flash zoom, you should get excellent coverage without weakening the flash with the flip down diffuser.

So, are you saying that if I put a 4'x6' softbox on a studio strobe, four feet from a subject, it won't do anything? It's just a single point of light? I don't understand your logic. The goal of the diffuser is to soften the light so it doesn't look like you have headlights shining in your eyes. The same reason you would use an Omnibounce or Lumiquest device. I'm really curious to understand your reasoning.
Scott

[DaveG]

Dave G is entitled to his opinion as am I. I'll just add that I use the wide angle diffuser to soften the harsh light of the flash regardless of the focal length of the lens. It works fine at 50mm with subjects 10-15 feet away.
Scott

It won't soften anything. It's a point source of light from that distance whether you use a diffuser or not. It's just a weaker point source with the diffuser.

The only concern is that the beam of light be wide enough to cover both sides of the group. With a normal or moderate wide angle lens and the built in flash zoom, you should get excellent coverage without weakening the flash with the flip down diffuser.

So, are you saying that if I put a 4'x6' softbox on a studio strobe, four feet from a subject, it won't do anything? It's just a single point of light? I don't understand your logic. The goal of the diffuser is to soften the light so it doesn't look like you have headlights shining in your eyes. The same reason you would use an Omnibounce or Lumiquest device. I'm really curious to understand your reasoning.
Scott

To make a point source "softer" you need to make it bigger. You can make it bigger by moving it in close, bouncing it off something big like an umbrella, or through a softbox. If you move that umbrella or softbox far enough away it becomes a point source again and the light will become harsh, again. The largest light source I can think of - the sun - is so far away that it is a point source.

Why do you think that there are a variety of softbox sizes? A colleague of mine has about five different sized ones, and that's so he can can fine tune the "softness" for a particular shot.

Of course putting a flash through a 4'X6' softbox a meter or so from your subject is going to make softer light. But remember that you said, "I'll just add that I use the wide angle diffuser to soften the harsh light ...", not "I'll push this through a 4x6 foot softbox." Just flipping down the 550's 17 mm diffuser screen WILL NOT make the light softer. It will make it wider and it will make it weaker. But it is still small and therefore still a point source.

The Omnibouce, Lumiquest or Stofen will only soften the light if you give them a chance to bounce the light off of a ceiling, wall and so forth. If you were to use an Omnibouce in a gym or rink, where god couldn't bounce, then you've converted a 2"X1" light source to 4"x4", and it won't make the slightest difference in "softness".

Now I used a Stofen in places where I know I would get no bounce effect, but that was with a Vivitar 283 and a 20 mm lens on a Nikon FM2. I needed the Stofen to widen the light and it did that very effectively. But the light was no softer.

[maderito]

Scott,

I leave it to DaveG to answer the specifics of your question, but I wanted to add my thoughts based on an experiment.

This is another of those counterintuitive aspects of photography that requires direction observation and experimentation to validate the concept -- which is: to make light softer you have to make the light source larger (relative to the subject). The sun is hard light unless it is diffused through an overcast sky. A softbox is hard if it is backed far away from the subject. A diffuser on an electronic flash only diminishes light output to the subject as it spreads light over a larger area. The size of the light source hasn't changed. In this case, you are wasting batteries.

I once aimed a 550EX + diffuser at a flat light reflector which then bounced the flash light back to my subject. (My experiment). To my surprise, I still had hard lighting - a lot of specular highlights, a harsh catchlight in the subject's eyes, strong shadows, etc. Using the reflector was no different than if I had aimed the flash at a flat mirror - the reflector diminished the amount of light to the subject, but not the softness.

I'm still searching for cheap ways to soften flash light, knowing that I will eventually have to put out the $$ for lightboxes and/or umbrellas (not to mention the Sekonic flash meter you have recommended).

[DaveG]

Scott,

I leave it to DaveG to answer the specifics of your question, but I wanted to add my thoughts based on an experiment.

This is another of those counterintuitive aspects of photography that requires direction observation and experimentation to validate the concept -- which is: to make light softer you have to make the light source larger (relative to the subject). The sun is hard light unless it is diffused through an overcast sky. A softbox is hard if it is backed far away from the subject. A diffuser on an electronic flash only diminishes light output to the subject as it spreads light over a larger area. The size of the light source hasn't changed. In this case, you are wasting batteries.

I once aimed a 550EX + diffuser at a flat light reflector which then bounced the flash light back to my subject. (My experiment). To my surprise, I still had hard lighting - a lot of specular highlights, a harsh catchlight in the subject's eyes, strong shadows, etc. Using the reflector was no different than if I had aimed the flash at a flat mirror - the reflector diminished the amount of light to the subject, but not the softness.

I'm still searching for cheap ways to soften flash light, knowing that I will eventually have to put out the $$ for lightboxes and/or umbrellas (not to mention the Sekonic flash meter you have recommended).

A cheap "umbrella" would be some white foamcore.

You'd get it from an art supply store. Ask if they have some damaged pieces, since you don't care if a corner is dinged, and you may save some money. The sheets that I have are white on one side and black on the other. The black comes in handy for macro backgrounds or for acting as a "negative" reflector to help remove light.

[scottbergerphoto]

DaveG and Maderito,
Thank you for your replies. I am aware about distance and light sources small and large. I use studio lights, reflectors, umbrellas, softboxes, etc. I think sometimes we get lost in terminology and technique. I think you sometimes have to sit back and ask yourself, "What looks better?". A while back, with my Nikon F5, I shot a number of test series using flash straight on, 45 degrees,and 90 degrees up with no diffuser, Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer(90degrees only) and Stoffen Omnibounce. I found that the Lumiquest gave the most pleasing result. I don't know if it was because it made the flash weaker or more diffuse. It just looked better. When I got my 550EX I took a number of shots with and without the wide angle diffuser down, using the 50mm 1.4, at about 15 feet. To me, the shots with the wide angle diffuser looked better, softer, more natural. We are talking about a form of art aren't we?
Enjoy,
Scott

[DaveG]

DaveG and Maderito,
Thank you for your replies. I am aware about distance and light sources small and large. I think sometimes we get lost in terminology and technique. I think you sometimes have to sit back and ask yourself, "What looks better?". A while back, with my Nikon F5, I shot a number of test series using flash straight on, 45 degrees,and 90 degrees up with no diffuser, Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer(90degrees only) and Stoffen Omnibounce. I found that the Lumiquest gave the most pleasing result. I don't know if it was because it made the flash weaker or more diffuse. It just looked better. When I got my 550EX I took a number of shots with and without the wide angle diffuser down, using the 50mm 1.4, at about 15 feet. To me, the shots with the wide angle diffuser looked better, softer, more natural. We are talking about a form of art aren't we?
Enjoy,
Scott

No, actually we were talking about how to make light softer.

[maderito]

A cheap "umbrella" would be some white foamcore.

Thanks. I think I recall hearing this tip from you before. It seemed too simple to be true! Should make a good weekend project. In my area, we have no shortage of art stores but no good photography shops.