Under 18 Models

[tigrinus]

What are the rules on photographing models under 18, is it ok if the photographer is under 18 photographing swimsuit etc as long as its non nude

[tigrinus]

any comments

[3Honu]

You might need to wait more than 9 minutes.

[tigrinus]

helpful

[PhotoScout]

In California, a minor (child) is anyone under 18 years of age. It would wise for you to have the model's parent or legal guardian sign a model release for the minor and a contract which would specify how the images are to be used. And make sure you have that adult present at all times while you shoot! Even better would be to have another adult you know present too.

One small misconstrued action by you or if the model gets upset about something and tries to fabricate a story about you being inappropriate , then at least the adults were there too.

The rules you let your model and parents know about up front tells them that you operate in a safe and professional way.

[3Honu]

helpful


I thought so. :D

[deadpass]

were you contacted by an under 18 model or are you persuing one? personally, unless I was good friends with them, i wouldn't shoot anyone under 18.

[Permagrin]

When we took our daughter to a pro to have senior photos done (this obviously was before we started shooting for ourselves), she was under 18 and I had to sign a release for her. It seems to be common practice, both for the safety of the teen and the photographer to have a parental release form. Also, this pro wouldn't shoot anyone under 18 w/o a parent present at the shoot. Also a wise move in my book.

[rhys]

I wouldn't touch a model that didn't look at least 25 and that couldn't produce verifiable ID that she was 25+. All it takes is for some troublemaking brat to scream paedophile and even though it wouldn't be justified, bang would go your reputation and away would go your clientelle. I've seen teachers' careers destroyed by spoilt brats yelling paedophile - even though it was later proven to be a false accusation. The accusation lies on file as "unproved" and no employer will thus ever touch them so they have to change career. It's very sad but in today's guilty-after-accusation world you have to think safety.

[deadpass]

25? wow that's excluding a good number of very attractive women, I dunno if the false report rates for such things necessitates such a strict standard, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Phil Light]

Is the main topic of this thread concerning photographs for commercial purposes, or just general photography? My 14-year old step daughter is having a birthday party here today. I spent a half hour or so earlier taking some fun, goofy posed shots of her, a couple of her friends and my daughter in my make-shift home studio in the basement. Now I'm thinking maybe I should burn my hard drive just to be safe. :p

[bard6817]

I'd be carefull with her friends in the basement.. Sorry, but it just sounds creepy...

Taking pictures at a birthday party would be fine, but the invite into your studio, crosses the line for me.

[tigrinus]

I was approached by this model she is actually a very good friend of mine, Its not such an issue of pedophile as Im under the age of 18 also. Does that make a difference.

[Jon]

Nope.

[tigrinus]

So i should get some model releases and parental forms but it is legal to photograph models under 18 as long as there is no nudity

[tigrinus]

Swimwear and others are okay as long as theres no nudity right?

[3Honu]

In my state it is legal to take pictures of anyone not matter the age. The mere act of taking a picture is not illegal. Now what happens with those photos afterwards can be illegal. Also, what occurs while taking the pictures can be illegal too. There is nothing inherently illegal about taking a picture of someone who is under age. That being said, no matter what your age is I would not take pictures of any model under 18 without a parent present...period. I would also consider having a neutral third party there as well. It is a crappy world we live in.

[rhys]

As far as I remember some Canadian photographer got prosecuted (in Britain) for paedophilia because she held an exhibition of her children's photographs. There was nothing very naughty in them. I think the most heinous photo was the back of her son as he urinated in the flower bed - all you could see apparently was his back and the stream. There was a great big fuss about it all and most people thought it was utterly ridiculous that the head-cases that want to ban everything actually pushed that case to court.

[Permagrin]

That being said, no matter what your age is I would not take pictures of any model under 18 without a parent present...period. I would also consider having a neutral third party there as well. It is a crappy world we live in.


I think this is excellent advice. One has to protect one's self...society doesn't anymore, because there's SO much depravity, it errors on the side of caution (meaning if there's smoke there IS fire). There's no reason, a pre-teen can't bring a parent/guardian to sign a waver and watch an hours shoot...

[rhys]

I think this is excellent advice. One has to protect one's self...society doesn't anymore, because there's SO much depravity, it errors on the side of caution (meaning if there's smoke there IS fire). There's no reason, a pre-teen can't bring a parent/guardian to sign a waver and watch an hours shoot...

I would go further - video cameras recording in the corner of the studios.

[Wilt]

A model relese for a minor should not merely have an 'adult signature' but you should insist upon it being signed in your presence after you have confirmed the identity of the person signing via glimpse of their driver's license. Teen girls have been known to merely bring an adult friend who is posing as their parent when their real parents will not provide permission! (Some of the female photographers on POTN can confirm just how underhanded girls can be at times!)
Someone that you have on hand as an adult witness can provide some protection for you, that the girl and her adult friend do not later testify against you that you did something not wholesome.
Never touch ANY model (adult or underage) without asking their permission first, and if you have to touch them to get their pose refined, try to use the back of your hands whenever possible.

[3Honu]

I thought of that but it can always be argued that the incident took place before or after the tape was running. To show how depraved our world has come it can also be used against you. "Why were you videotaping this? What kind of perv are you?" Is there a chance you can have a nun with a baseball bat standing by?

[tigrinus]

wow so taking the pictures is legal but it wats done afterward, these girls are close friends so it should go smoothly

[rhys]

I thought of that but it can always be argued that the incident took place before or after the tape was running. To show how depraved our world has come it can also be used against you. "Why were you videotaping this? What kind of perv are you?" Is there a chance you can have a nun with a baseball bat standing by?

Simple - keep the tape running at all times, conceal the camera - use it like a security camera. Film everywhere except the changing room. Even film the lobby - it keeps you covered and you can say it's against theft.

[Phil Light]

...Taking pictures at a birthday party would be fine, but the invite into your studio, crosses the line for me.

I'm not sure if it would make much of a difference, but I didn't invite them, they asked me to take some shots of them. This "studio" is not closed off in any way. The entire basement is wide open. Still, I can see where it might not be a good idea to do that without another adult such as one of their parents around. I will keep this thread in mind in the future.

[3Honu]

wow so taking the pictures is legal but it wats done afterward, these girls are close friends so it should go smoothly

It can also be what is done during the shoot. Don't misunderstand. If you do something wrong (intentionally or not) that is wrong too. But just taking a picture of someone under 18 is not illegal. But bathing suits? Yeah, you need to protect yourself.

I still think you should have a nun with a baseball standing by for protection

[tigrinus]

so is it legal to photograph peopel under 18 in lingerie swimwear etc as long as theres no nudity, on sites such a modelmayhem onemodelpalce etc ive seen this?

[sandpiper]

Swimwear and others are okay as long as theres no nudity right?

It helps when asking about this sort of thing to say where you are, laws differ in different countries and what may be perfectly legal in one country, may not be where you are.

In Britain the law is not as simple as the quote above. It is legal to shoot under 18s nude in some circumstances, but not in swimwear (or even fully dressed) in others. I believe that the situation in the USA is similar.

The actual problem isn't what they are (or aren't) wearing, it's the style of the image and also the 'intent' behind the taking and using of the image.

Examples:

Babies naked on a sheepskin rug - LEGAL
Children being bathed or playing naked in the garden - LEGAL
Young children in underwear for product catalogues - LEGAL
Minors of any age naked at a naturist site etc - LEGAL

This is all assuming that the shots are taken by / for the parents (or at the very least with their permission) and are for reasonable purposes. Nude children are often seen in advertisements / TV programmes for example.

Taking sneaky shots of the next door kids playing naked, is not legal and putting them on a dodgy website could land you in jail.

On the other hand, shots of fully clothed children in 'sexy or provocative poses' can be deemed to be illegal. Sadly there is no actual definition of these poses, it would be up to the jury!

So long as you stick to clothed shots in non sexy poses you should have no problems from the image point of view. As has been discussed above, you also have to protect yourself from possible false accusations. If you know, and trust, the person in question and have discussed it with the parents you should have no worries there. It is preferable to have the parents present and sign a consent form but not actually a legal requirement, so again no problem with friends or people you know. When working with those you don't know and trust, discuss it with the parents, insist on a parent (or parentally approved chaperone) being present at all times and get a consent form signed.

I have worked with a number of under 18 models with no problems whatsoever, usually with the parents or a chaperone present and consent signed etc. Although girls I have met before (and trust) have done shoots without a chaperone present, so long as the parents are happy about it.

As with everything in life, use common sense and take sensible precautions.

[Orgnoi1]

Model Release/Parental Consent Form

-and-

Have the parent around.... period...

If you cannot feel you can satisfy either or both of those items and the female is underage not only are you opening yourself up to potential issues with the law, but your reputation will be at stake as not only a photographer but in general as a person. Also if you dont feel you need the parents around or dont WANT them around... I would wonder to myself what the real reason you want to take the pics is... coming from a parent...

[sandpiper]

Also if you dont feel you need the parents around or dont WANT them around... I would wonder to myself what the real reason you want to take the pics is... coming from a parent...

I fully agree about being suspicious of any photographer who doesn't want parents present, but I can't see why a photographer who is prepared to work without parents present if they are happy to trust him, and he trusts the model, should fall under the same suspicion.

If the model and the parents know the photographer well, trust him and vice versa, the parents may be busy but want shots taken and be happy to let the shoot take place without them. As the photographer, I know that I am not going to molest the model, if the model and parents also know me well enough to trust me - where is the problem.

I worked with a 17 year old (so still legally a minor) recently with nobody else present. Should I have had the parents present? I don't think so. I know the model, we trust each other and her parents live over 200 miles away as she left home and moved down here, to be with her boyfriend, last year. I don't feel that her parents would appreciate being dragged across the country to be present while I took a few fashion style pics for their daughter.

I don't feel the need for a chaperone to protect a model working with me, this isn't because I am doing anything dodgy, but because I know that I won't. I am more than happy for the model to bring one if she wants one. I will insist on a chaperone, and possibly take one myself, if I don't know the model. This is for my protection, not hers.

[Permagrin]

so is it legal to photograph peopel under 18 in lingerie swimwear etc as long as theres no nudity, on sites such a modelmayhem onemodelpalce etc ive seen this?

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment....

Let's say I'm a parent of a teenage girl (16-17) and she's consented to have herself photograhed by you, w/o my knowledge or consent, in a bikini. Let's say that you post those photos on the net for whatever purpose, even non commercial. Suddenly, I see them...and feel that, as a parent, it's my responsibility to make sure my daughter is not exploited in any way shape or form (now mind you, often a parent's idea of exploitation is MUCH different than a "photographer's view of art"), whether or not she feels like she's been exploited, she's a minor and therefore in the eyes of the law, not capable of making those judgements...easily influenced in order to gain approval/attention....

So I see them...and I decide that you took unfair advantage of her "innocence" by taking the photographs. Result, I sue you and if you are under age, your parents (or whomever is responsible for YOUR actions) too. It is after all, a parents responsibility to protect their children, whether or not the child thinks they need it, until they are of age.

Be smart and unless you have a parents sig. and them witnessing the shoot, do NOT under any circumstances, photograph a minor.

[Wilt]

I fully agree about being suspicious of any photographer who doesn't want parents present, but I can't see why a photographer who is prepared to work without parents present if they are happy to trust him, and he trusts the model, should fall under the same suspicion.

If the model and the parents know the photographer well, trust him and vice versa, the parents may be busy but want shots taken and be happy to let the shoot take place without them. As the photographer, I know that I am not going to molest the model, if the model and parents also know me well enough to trust me - where is the problem.

I worked with a 17 year old (so still legally a minor) recently with nobody else present. Should I have had the parents present? I don't think so. I know the model, we trust each other and her parents live over 200 miles away as she left home and moved down here, to be with her boyfriend, last year. I don't feel that her parents would appreciate being dragged across the country to be present while I took a few fashion style pics for their daughter.

I don't feel the need for a chaperone to protect a model working with me, this isn't because I am doing anything dodgy, but because I know that I won't. I am more than happy for the model to bring one if she wants one. I will insist on a chaperone, and possibly take one myself, if I don't know the model. This is for my protection, not hers.

Sandpiper, your motivations are noble, but in the litigious society we live in, with the elevated sensivities to molestation by those in positions of authority to those who are not necessarily able or willing (sometimes feeling coerced) to make claims until much later in life, one can never be too careful! I could imagine that although things were totally innocent and within propriety when you shoot, that 20 years from now a woman comes back from 'recovered memory therapy' to make claims that never happened in reality, but were 'recovered memories' and real in her mind nonetheless. And her statement is "I guess I had just supressed those memories while they were happening, because they were so traumatic to me, and it was only in seeing a therapist for other reasons that these past events were allowed to surface in my mind!"

[Permagrin]

Sandpiper, your motivations are noble, but in the litigious society we live in, with the elevated sensivities to molestation by those in positions of authority to those who are not necessarily able or willing (sometimes feeling coerced) to make claims until much later in life, one can never be too careful! I could imagine that although things were totally innocent and within propriety when you shoot, that 20 years from now a woman comes back from 'recovered memory therapy' to make claims that never happened in reality, but were 'recovered memories' and real in her mind nonetheless. And her statement is "I guess I had just supressed those memories while they were happening, because they were so traumatic to me, and it was only in seeing a therapist for other reasons that these past events were allowed to surface in my mind!"


Well said Wilt. Too many times people with sterling intentions are ruined by baseless accusations....as well as too many times, people who appear to have sterling intentions devastate a young woman or man because they are really predators....society is what the collective has made it. Sadly.

[Claire]

It's so depressing to read these type of threads, but it is a dangerous world we live in. Heck, I'm even worried about my safety as a photographer. I'm more at ease with the idea of shooting a female model than a male model.

[tigrinus]

i am honestly worried now to photograph a minor

[Wilt]

i am honestly worried now to photograph a minor

It is exceedingly unfortunate that the days of innocence and trust have vanished into suspicion and distrust. To read the problems encountered by photographers who go to school sporting activities and the accusations of 'pervert or kidnapper photographing my children' -- even though they were requested by another parent to take photos of their child -- or the stories of a nature photographer shooting photos and then accusations by passerby females about the 'photographer taking pictures of my butt'...<shaking head sadly>

[Claire]

At least I'm not male. I'd hate to be looked at with suspicion all the time.

[Wilt]

At least I'm not male. I'd hate to be looked at with suspicion all the time.

Wait you could be one of those lesbian perverts, out photographing the backsides of those ladies walking thru the public gardens!

[Claire]

Wilt, doubt that'd be me. Besides, I'm a face person. :p Seriously though. I've shot underaged kids at school & people in general on beaches. Felt like a perv, but figured I should feel confident. I got away with the beach, probably cos I'm a girl. Nobody screamed "Lookat her with a camera & 300mm lens!".

[Wilt]

Yes, but you come from the Scandiavian countries, rather than the Puritanical countries who are still suffering from the continued abnormal Victorian attitudes!

[Permagrin]

Yes, but you come from the Scandiavian countries, rather than the Puritanical countries who are still suffering from the continued abnormal Victorian attitudes!

:lol: California is hardly suffering from abnormal Victorian attitudes! :lol:

[Wilt]

:lol: California is hardly suffering from abnormal Victorian attitudes! :lol:

Hmm tell me that one again the next time a nursing mother has to 'go into hiding' to feed her baby because of the disapproving glances from other people,

or the next time I go to a beach in the US and every lady has her top on, yet when she travels abroad she readily sheds the top!

Or the next time I look at a medical ad in Europe where a lady getting a mammogram is shown without shame yet she is always photographed in a way which conceals everything to the same levels as seen on US beaches!

[Claire]

Eh, I don't shoot topless women with my tele...but I feel like a perv for wanting to catch photos of children at play by the beach.

I've seen women breastfeeding in cafes and such. As long as it's discreet I don't mind, but you should be showing tact with everything when in public.

I don't care about topless on the beach. Those who want to, fine by me. Please just don't walk into stores without proper clothes on! I hate how the men go into grocery stores without tops on.Yuck.

[lakiluno]

surely if the person is over 16 (at least in the UK), then they aren't really thought of as a minor in the same way that someone under 16 would...

[Claire]

In Sweden someone over 15 can sign a release form as long as he/she has been "properly informed".

I also think Swedes are yet naive & trustworthy, so kids & teens are allowed to do a lot without a parent in tow all the time.

Besides, it's not feasable (sp?) to have a parent around every time.

[sandpiper]

surely if the person is over 16 (at least in the UK), then they aren't really thought of as a minor in the same way that someone under 16 would...

The law changed recently. It used to be that nude etc. was fine for 16+ but they raised it recently to 18. In theory, any model under 18 is treated the same - as a minor.

In practice, the law would probably look at shots of a 17 year old in a sexy outfit differently to the same outfit being worn by a 14 year old. All the same, if you want to do sexy glamour shots (clothed or otherwise) I would suggest that you stick to 18s and over and check ID (take a pic of the ID too). I know that ID can be faked, but so long as it looks convincing and you took reasonable steps to check the model's age, you are covered legally so long as you genuinely believed they were 18 or over.

[tigrinus]

what a mss this is

[3Honu]

what a mss this is


Yep, the other day I was at the park with some friends and family. I was taking pictures of the kids on the big toys. Some of the other kids who were not family, I wouldn't should despite their urging.

[Longwatcher]

First let me state on the rare occasions I take a picture of someone under 18 (except in a crowd shot) I always have the parent present and have already had them sign the release (along with the model if old enough to sign)

As applies to the USA
Second the problem is with the risk associated with taking a "wrong" picture and the fact that what is "wrong" has a very flaky definition. If the wrong people say you took a wrong picture and you are convicted rightly or wrongly, you can become exiled for life within your own country with no hope of redemption because "we must protect our children". I kind of think we ought to put the little darlings in a straight jacket in a padded room until they are 18 for MY protection.

So the risk in the US of taking a wrong picture is just too high and so the desire to take an innocent picture for artistic or related reasons is severely restricted.

So I always have a parent present in the rare times I photograph a minor.

[BillsBayou]

What are the rules on photographing models under 18, is it ok if the photographer is under 18 photographing swimsuit etc as long as its non nude


so is it legal to photograph peopel under 18 in lingerie swimwear etc as long as theres no nudity, on sites such a modelmayhem onemodelpalce etc ive seen this?

wow so taking the pictures is legal but it wats done afterward, these girls are close friends so it should go smoothly

I was approached by this model she is actually a very good friend of mine, Its not such an issue of pedophile as Im under the age of 18 also. Does that make a difference.

I've got a dirty mind. Ayup. It's a stinker. I read this and I remember when I was younger than 18 with my own camera (AE-1, still have it) and my own enlarger. What does the older me say to the younger me?

Talk to the girls parents.

Get them to sign off on the deal. Get an actual signature!

My biggest question is: WHY DO THEY WANT YOU TO PHOTOGRAPH THEM IN SWIMSUITS AND LINGERIE? (or was your use of the word "lingerie" for the purpose of the discussion?)

I can tell you why I'd have wanted to photograph my girlfriends in their swimsuits, but they never approached me for the work. I'd be very cautious if I were you.

In the end, be sure that you never use the photographs in your portfolio to represent your work. This sounds like it's for their modeling portfolio. That's great if their parents are present. And have your parents there as well.

You mentioned "girls" in plural as friends. It'd be best if you did not touch the girls while you shoot. If something needs to be adjusted, have the girls or their parents fix each other's costumes.

And don't succumb to temptation to fire the camera when the models are touching each other. Bad bad bad. Suggestive lesbianism with underage models? That's not good.

[Claire]

And don't succumb to temptation to fire the camera when the models are touching each other. Bad bad bad. Suggestive lesbianism with underage models? That's not good.

I can't believe someone even brought this up. Never even occured to me! Does make me wonder where glamour photography is heading...

...but it's still a very good point & one that should be followed.

Now, if the teen girls of today could actually follow all the good advice in this thread when taking pics of themselves, that'd be even better. :rolleyes:

[BillsBayou]

I can't believe someone even brought this up. Never even occured to me! Does make me wonder where glamour photography is heading...

Oh, I brought it up all right. Read the first few sentences of my post.

My point was simply that he shouldn't be touching his underage models, even if it's a minor wardrobe adjustment, hair adjustment, or limb placement. The fact that he's underage has no bearing on his behavior during the shoot. Get someone the model trusts to do the adjustments if the model cannot do the adjustment herself.

I guess I just put my mind into the teenage gutter where once I dwelled.