Sport pictures in poor light

[Woolly Joss]

Hi,

I am currently having problems taking pictures at football matches due to the poor floodlighting at grounds I visit.

I am using a D10 and most of the time use a EF 100-400mm f4.5/5.6L USM lens.

When shooting under floodlights I am using the AV setting and have my ISO set to the maximum, however I still have so much blurring that many shots are useless.

Is there anything else I can do to improve the quality of my pictures?

Any advice gratefully received.

[RichardtheSane]

1. Get a faster lens

2. Shoot RAW and under expose your shots by 1-2 stops on the shutter speed, then recover the lost stop in raw conversion software such as breezebrowser or Capture One.
I use the same lens and sometimes come across situations where I don't want the motion blur panning causes but there is not enough light. Here is what I do. Set the camera to Av, set aperture to F5 and make sure I keep my zoom below 250mm (that is about the spot it goes to F5.6). Shoot them all at 1-1 2/3 stop under exposed, then I get my sharp images and I can correct the exposure in capture one.
If my shutter speed is dropping below 1/125th I usually stop or fasten the 550ex (if allowed)

[ilya]

You will need to bump up your ISO to as high as 1600 as a tradeoff (what ISO are you using now?). That will allow you to increase shutter speed. The 10D is pretty good with high ISO. Then you can use Neatimage or another noise reduction software.

[cardigan1979]

Hey up Wooly Jess,

I too shoot football (soccer) matches in crap light. You really need a f2.8 lens, I dial it at 1600 and when the light is shocking (below 250/2.8 put it on manual at 250/2.8 and play with your levels in Photoshop. You can use the ISO extension on the 10D to 3200,which I use for Central League matches at night but at league grounds what I mentioned first should be OK. pm or mail me and I'll show you a before and after if you wish. If you bought the Sport First newspaper look at the Lincoln/Torquay pix.

Hope this helps

[cardigan1979]

Probably not for the purist on this site but I always use JPEG and have had 40" x 30" prints looking georgeous. Never used RAW as I am unsure who to use it in Photoshop.

[mpkirby]

1. Get a faster lens

Set the camera to Av, set aperture to F5 and make sure I keep my zoom below 250mm (that is about the spot it goes to F5.6). Shoot them all at 1-1 2/3 stop under exposed, then I get my sharp images and I can correct the exposure in capture one.

I usually have problems with blur when I do that. I usually use Tv mode instead, and let the aperature wander. It usually drops to an under-exposed image, and then I recover what I can in photoshop.

Also, if you are using a zoom lens, unless you are looking to blow the pictures up to 20x30, shoot wider then you otherwise would. Ideally, if you could get away with a faster lens, (like a 50mm f1.4 or even the 1.8), then you can crop down later, and still get a decent picture -- (For me that has been the biggest boon of more megapixels....croping so I can user faster lenses).

Mike



Mike

[GenEOS]

I wish I had the option to go up to 1600 or 3200 !!

I would suggest a 70-200 f2.8 with a 1.4x converter. Without the converter, it should do a great job on your under lighted situations. With the 1.4x converter, it will still be better than what you are shooting now.
Make sure you shoot RAW, because you will be able to adjust levels a lot better in RAW than jpeg when you are forced to underexpose.

You may also think about some fixed zooms, in lower f-stop versions. They are a bit cheaper, but limit you without a zoom function.

I shoot in RAW and in these type conditions, shoot Manual and adjust between 1/250th and 1/500th, depending on what I can get away with on the particular field and my limits ISO settings on the D60.

If you can use a flash, you will get good results shooting manually at 1/200th f/2.8 or your lowest. Adjust the flsh at about a 30 degree angle above the subject. It will stop motion and will not be really too harsh of lighting.

[RichardtheSane]

1. Get a faster lens

Set the camera to Av, set aperture to F5 and make sure I keep my zoom below 250mm (that is about the spot it goes to F5.6). Shoot them all at 1-1 2/3 stop under exposed, then I get my sharp images and I can correct the exposure in capture one.

I usually have problems with blur when I do that. I usually use Tv mode instead, and let the aperature wander. It usually drops to an under-exposed image, and then I recover what I can in photoshop.


Good point, sports are better in TV. DOH!
I do a lot og gig shots and generally when I have a fair idea of the lighting conditions I will drop them into manual mode anyway, and it will very rarely be more than a stop different.

[robertwgross]

When we talk about sports photography, and if somebody mentions "football," we need to know whether we are talking about American football or else soccer. The stadiums tend to be quite different and lighting is different.

Now, somebody from the UK, we would guess is discussing soccer.

---Bob Gross---

[cardigan1979]

Hey up Bob,

Yeah,Soccer in the UK is football. Never had the opportunity to go to the Us and shoot American football.

What the light like for American Football. IN the UK the majority of Premier league clubs lights are OK along with new stadiums. I work in lower league professional fooball(Soccer!) the lighting is crash hot. But now the days are starting to last longer,covered a match on Boxing day the light was shocking torrential rain,one of the shortest days of the year and a crap match. Got about 12 suitable shots the best being when the goalscorer looked at me whilst he was celebrating. Very rare you get that shot

[robertwgross]

Yes, we Yanks can get into a vocabulary problem even with Canadians.

I boarded a Canada Air flight for Toronto, and the cabin steward came down the aisle to ask for beverage orders.

I asked for a cup of hot tea.

The steward said, "Sir, this is a Canadian aircraft. The only tea is hot!"

---Bob Gross---

[Tom W]

Yes, we Yanks can get into a vocabulary problem even with Canadians.

I boarded a Canada Air flight for Toronto, and the cabin steward came down the aisle to ask for beverage orders.

I asked for a cup of hot tea.

The steward said, "Sir, this is a Canadian aircraft. The only tea is hot!"

---Bob Gross---

Heck, even in the US, there is a communications gap between north and south. Don't go south and ask for a "pop" - its Coke, even if its Pepsi. If you ask for pop, you may get popped in the mouth! (well, not really, but they'll tell you that). And tea is served iced and sweetened in the south. If you don't want sweet tea, you ask for unsweet tea.

Plus, those of us south of the Ohio river resent being referred to as "yanks" - We're Rebels and they named a camera after us. :D

Of course, I never tell anybody that I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. They already think I talk funny. :)

[Wickedfn4u]

shoot in RAW and in these type conditions, shoot Manual and adjust between 1/250th and 1/500th, depending on what I can get away with on the particular field and my limits ISO settings on the D60.

Couple things to consider about shooting RAW at basketball or even football games. One I usually end up with shrinkage on cold days and second they usually call the police and have me put away. Cloths from now on!

[cardigan1979]

Hi Bob,

People have problems when you ask for a 'cob' anywhere else in the UK bar Mansfield maybe you would get away with it in Nottingham. For those out of range of Nottinghamshire a cob is a 'bap'bun,bread roll'

On another subject 'I'll have a look at this RAW when I've time but JPEG is quick and efficient and what everyone uses. I'll have a look at some folks' postings

[Andrea_T]

cardigan1979 gives some great advice, which I can only echo. I've shot friendly and reserve games at a league ground under floodlights and, as he says, a faster lens would help you a lot, especially at this time of year. Don't be afraid to push your ISO up too, and it is definitely worth going to manual and trying your lens at its widest aperture with a shutter speed of 1/250th, even if the camera says your shot will be underexposed. You can probably recover the images later in your editor. The beauty of digital is that you can try these things out without it costing anything!

[Woolly Joss]

Thanks for everyone's advice.

I should have perhaps made it clearer that I meant soccer in my original question.

I'm fairly lucky in that my team's home games are at Hampden Park, where the lighting is excellent, but at some of the away grounds it seems like the floodlights are just a couple of candles!

I'll give your ideas a bash on Saturday and see how I get on!

[Burninfilm2]

The formula I use is: camera set to manual, ISO 800, 180mm or 300mm f 2.8 (not possible with your lens), 1/250 & flash set to manual 1/8. The football fields here allow the flash. I have shot without it at both 800 & 1600 ISO, but the results are eratic. In broad daylight the lens set to AV & wide open on the 100-400mm is a fine combination, and you can also use ISO 400 or slower. The best answer is a faster lens for low light sports..the 100-400mm is a great lens, but not for this application..Bob <><

[Tom W]

Burninfilm - just out of curiousity, are you talking about pro football stadiums or college or high school? I know that pro stadiums are very well lit, though I've never looked at them from the photographer's point of view.

[Ellie]

Hey Tom,

You are a yank. I'm from Lousiana and anything above Interstate 10 is considered yankee here!! :lol:


Ellie

Ya'll come back now, hear?!

[Tom W]

Hey Tom,

You are a yank. I'm from Lousiana and anything above Interstate 10 is considered yankee here!! :lol:


Ellie

Ya'll come back now, hear?!

Heh Heh - I used to think that anybody south of route 18 was a redneck. Ohio State Route 18, that is. (for those not in the know, route 18 in Ohio runs east to west and bisects Akron.

I've since reconsidered after relocating (and relocating would make me a "damn yankee") :twisted:

[cardigan1979]

Yanks everywhere God damm it!
Freewheeling down the highway,eatin' cotton pickin' burgers!

[cardigan1979]

Wooly Jess, I can't get on to your web site my pc breaks down when I try.

I can assume you are the Queen's Park photographer??

I bet you have some fun shooting in places like Gretna,Brechin and such ilk!

To help you more may I suggest a pit helmet!!

[Tom W]

Yanks everywhere God damm it!
Freewheeling down the highway,eatin' cotton pickin' burgers!

Yeeeeeee HAW!!! :D

[CoolToolGuy]

Here on the East Coast of the USA, when you go to the grocery store, you put your purchases in a bag. But in the midwest (US) they go into a sack. References to a bag may get you in trouble for insulting someone's wife
;-)
Seriously, I think we Americans might be considered a bit arrogant (no, not us!) to insist on calling it soccer when the rest of the world calls it football. Heads up, Bob G.

Have Fun
Rick

[Tom W]

Here on the East Coast of the USA, when you go to the grocery store, you put your purchases in a bag. But in the midwest (US) they go into a sack. References to a bag may get you in trouble for insulting someone's wife
;-)
Seriously, I think we Americans might be considered a bit arrogant (no, not us!) to insist on calling it soccer when the rest of the world calls it football. Heads up, Bob G.

Have Fun
Rick

I think the reason we call it "soccer" is that the name "football" was already coined for the Americanized version of Rugby. I'm not quite sure how "football" got attached to American football - they don't kick it that often.

Anyway, this thread has gone almost in a complete circle. We need to get back to lens talk. :P

[theflyingkiwi]

well personaly myself I think all Americans are crazy :) but when it comes to names, what UK and the rest of the world would call football, we in NZ would call it both scoccer and football. When I was growing up I would have called it scoccer.

In the land of the famous All Blacks, we call Rugby, well just Rugby.

What I find interesting is that all of our national teams have black in them

All Black, Rugby team
Black Caps, Cricket team
Tall Blacks, Basketball team
Black Sticks, Hockey Team
Black Magic, Americas Cup Team (even tho they was not that magic in the last cup defence :(

and believe it or not our national scoccer team is called All Whites.

go figure.

As for a lense, get a 70-200 f2.8 this is a fast lense which will enable the shutter speeds that you require. it's that simple :)

[Tom W]

well personaly myself I think all Americans are crazy :)

I can't speak for all, but I know that I am, as are most of my friends and family. :)

As for a lense, get a 70-200 f2.8 this is a fast lense which will enable the shutter speeds that you require. it's that simple :)

Actually, I agree. If it seems too short in the future or for other events, you can use the 1.4X or the 2.0X converter. Its a very flexible telephoto lens.

[MarkH]

I have to agree about the 70-200 f2.8 (whether Canon or Sigma, whether IS or not) that would be my pick of zooms for low light. If you can get close enough to not need more then 200mm then you'll be sweet! (Poor, but sweet)
:P

[JABACo]

Hey Tom,

You are a yank. I'm from Lousiana and anything above Interstate 10 is considered yankee here!! :lol:


Ellie

Ya'll come back now, hear?!

Hey hey, watch it!!!!!! :twisted: Monroe isn't coonass country but it sure isn't yankeeville.

Love ya, mean it.

[Woolly Joss]

Cardigan1979,

Yes I take pictures for the QP programme, my web site (as far as I can see it's running ok), and I've also starting selling them to the local paper in the last few months.

I am spoiled a bit because of the lighting at Hampden, and at places like Gretna and Peterhead at this time of year you're praying for a clear day, and for all the action to happen early in the game while the light's still decent.

Unfortunately, in last Saturday's game at Gretna, the only goal of the game was in the last minute so although I timed my shot ok, it was too blurred to use, hence my query on this board.

[Avarond]

Im not saying anything about anyones geographical location since I now reside in Kentucky.

As far as lenses go, I was looking into the Canon 70-200 lens also, but was going to get just the f4 version. Will that lens be sufficient under lights at a baseball game at night? Im assuming it will do fine in daylight also but let me know if Im wrong about that. Or do I just need to bite the bullet and get the 2.8.

[Burninfilm2]

Hi Tom, The pro stadiums are very well lit and you can pick up at least another stop ie: 1/500. The formula I gave is for high school & community fields in this area..Bob <><

[Burninfilm2]

Hi Larry..My advice is that if you plan to shoot sports in low light to cough up the extra bucks & buy the f 2.8..ouch!!..Bob <><

[cardigan1979]

Hey up Wooly Jess,

These are common and so frustrating problems.

My advice is get a second hand Canon 70-200mm 2.8 lens. I realise this will stretch you finaniciallly maybe but you will reap what you sow believe me.

I got one second hand off e-bay for £600 which was a good deal in my eyes. I had a sigma beforehand again very good but in poor light in wasn't as quick as Canon. If you can afford to buy a 10D this lens shouldn't cause too much problem(Mentally you will feel better to have a 2.8 lens as you know you can go to Gretna,Stenhousemuir and get some sort of decent pic.

Who have you got this weekend? I'm shooting for Mansfield Town at home to Southend

[Woolly Joss]

Home to Montrose this weekend Cardigan1979, so not too much of a light problem this weekend with the Hampden floodlights.

Lighting up time is also going back about 15 minutes per week just now, so hopefully in three or four weeks they'll be no problem at any of the outposts we visit.

Unfortunately buying the 100-400 pretty much cleared me out a few months ago, so a new lens is off the agenda for the time being, although I may look into buying a 70-200 2.8 in the autumn.