Help with initial colorspace settings

[dwalker]

Could someone please help me get started with color spaces. I've followed most of the threads about color space and have Pekka's 3.42 actions along with Fred's actions. I've also read through some of Tino's info on color space and have his color space profiles. I've profiled my monitor with Adobe gamma. However, I'm confused about the initial color space settings in PS 6 and when to convert/assign a color space or if I should have "Proofing" set to monitor RGB etc. There is a huge difference in color rendition with various color spaces and this has got me very confused as to how to proceed.
I would like to be able to make prints on my Epson 1280 AND create CD's of the same images that will be viewed on other monitors (not necessarily in PS). I would also like to know that when those images are viewed on another computer, they will look as close as possible to what I see in PS on my computer. I'm beginning to get some portrait business and I would like as much compatibility as possible between my monitor and my customer's monitor when they view images from the CD they receive from me. Here are 3 questions.

1. What default colorspace should I set in PS 6?
2. Should I have monitor proofing set on?
3. Do I assign/convert the image to some other colorspace and if so at what point.

I just need some starting point that will provide the most consistency and compatibility between my printer and the images as viewed on a monitor.

Any help would be appreciated.

Dazed and confused.

[Dick]

>1. What default colorspace should I set in PS 6?

Since you are planning to print on an inkjet I would recommend that you select Adobe RGB as your working space. It will match pretty well with your Epson.

>2. Should I have monitor proofing set on?

No, keep it simple for now. Your Epson and your Canon camera are pretty close on color space so I don't think there is any need for you to worry about "soft proofing".

>3. Do I assign/convert the image to some other colorspace and if so at what point.

This is where it gets a little tricky. I would start with a RAW image converted "normally" not "linear" to a TIFF file. Use BreezeBrowser or ZoomBrowser to produce this file. Import the file to PS. When you open the file you should "assign" it as sRGB and then "convert" it to Adobe RGB. Edit and color correct this file and then print. You should set up the printer to utilize ICM and printer color management. The input color space should be Adobe RGB.

If this doesn't give you a good color match then I would suspect your monitor profile is not accurate. If you want consistent color matching you really need to buy a monitor profiler program and colorimeter.

When you have mastered this standard work flow then try using Pekka's or Fred Miranda's RAW linear profiles and compare them with the "standard" approach from above. With experience you can produce better results but you really need to master the basics of color mangement.

[dwalker]

Dick wrote:
I would start with a RAW image converted "normally" not "linear" to a TIFF file. Use BreezeBrowser or ZoomBrowser to produce this file. Import the file to PS. When you open the file you should "assign" it as sRGB and then "convert" it to Adobe RGB. Edit and color correct this file and then print. You should set up the printer to utilize ICM and printer color management. The input color space should be Adobe RGB
Thanks Dick for your response. I see where I went wrong. I correctly set up PS with the Adobe RGB 1998 color space but I was then assigning that color space to the Tiff files I opened and then converting to sRGB. Doing that in reverse, as you suggested, works much better :). I've played around with this and am satisfied that it is a good starting point.
Now on to Linear Tiff. When opening those files, should I NOT assign a profile and let the actions do that for me or do I assign a profile? Seems to me that you would not.
Thanks again.

[Dick]

>Now on to Linear Tiff. When opening those files, should I NOT assign a profile and let the actions do that for me or do I assign a profile? Seems to me that you would not.

You will need to read what each action "expects" and "produces". I know that Fred Maranda's actions "assigns" and "converts" and ends up producing an Adobe RGB tagged file. I'm not sure about Pekka's as I've never played with it.

I use inCamera Pro to build D30 profiles for various light conditions (flash, direct sun etc. etc.) by taking a photo of a Gretag Macbeth Color Checker Chart and using that profile with photos taken in that lighting. This is why I'm not sure of what these various action require and produce.

[Pekka]

dwalker wrote:
Now on to Linear Tiff. When opening those files, should I NOT assign a profile and let the actions do that for me or do I assign a profile? Seems to me that you would not.


Leave the LInear TIFF unassigned (as Untagged RGB). After conversion (and sharpening) is done, convert to color space of you target media.

[romeozulu]

I too am completely confused by all this color management stuff. I have spent days trying to get my 1280 to print something that looks like what I see on the screen. I have used Fred's actions, Pekka's actions and they all look different from each other, but nothing gets me closer to a printed image looking like my screen does. Like the original poster, I have set my monitor using the Adobe Gamma.

Dick wrote:
When you open the file you should "assign" it as sRGB and then "convert" it to Adobe RGB.


Why not just assign it to Adobe RGB?

Dick wrote:
You should set up the printer to utilize ICM and printer color management.


Can you be a little clearer on what you mean by this? There are many places to do this. I have read and followed the tutorial at http://www.computer-darkroom.com/media_profiles/media_print_1.htm with no good results.

I have talked to people claiming to get "perfect" matches from screen to printer. I saw some prints that one of them did and while they looked good, they were not (in my opinion) a "match". So maybe I'm just being too picky.

Is there a good online tutorial on how to use Fred and Pekka's actions? Maybe I'm just stupid, but I just can't seem to get good results. What I need is a step-by-step, making NO assumptions, that walks me though the process for a file. Every step.

There is obviously something I am missing in all this, but hell if I can figure out what it is.

Pekka wrote:
Leave the LInear TIFF unassigned (as Untagged RGB). After conversion (and sharpening) is done, convert to color space of you target media.


When I load the linar TIFF into PS, it asks me which profile to convert it to. How do I leave it unassigned. And, when you say "convert to color space of you target media", what exactly do you mean? If I'm going to print it, do I assign it to Adobe RGB? Or to the "Epson 1280 Glossy Paper" profile. Arg. I'm soooooo confused.

[Pekka]

romeozulu wrote:
When I load the linar TIFF into PS, it asks me which profile to convert it to. How do I leave it unassigned. And, when you say "convert to color space of you target media", what exactly do you mean? If I'm going to print it, do I assign it to Adobe RGB? Or to the "Epson 1280 Glossy Paper" profile. Arg. I'm soooooo confused.

Yes, leave the Linear TIFF unassigned (the should be an option 'leave as is (don't color manage)' on the dialog.

What I mean by target media, is that each device that is meant to show/print/project/whatever the photo to the audience has an ability to reproduce only a specific range of colors. You should by reading the manual or by calling the manufacturer get info of what is the preferred color space: the color space the device was designed to work with. Computer monitors can not show much more than sRGB can display (that's why there's a desaturation option in PS color setup), but some printers have excellent color reproduction so they can benefit from e.g. AdobeRGB.

As printing from RGB image to CMYK printer always means that either the printer driver or the printing software has to convert the colors from one color mode to another, using a color space with large gamut (large number of color intensities) will preserve the quality during conversions even if the final device (printer) can not show all the colors of that color space (even in theory).

If you feed a device a bigger gamut that it can handle, you normally see perhaps dimmer colors, some raster effect, burnt out or washed out areas, or then again you could see no problems at all. Because very few actual photos contain such big a dynamic range in both color and exposure sense, it might be that you rarely come close to really seeing problems created by mismatched color spaces.

Printing advice:

When you print with PS check that in Print Setup dialog the Source Space is the one you have on your document now (AdobeRGB), and print space is 'Printer Color Management'. You see these options on Print Options' Show More Options' dialog.

When you click 'print' from there, see that the next dialog (Print) has also same settings (Source Space = AdobeRGB and Print Space = Printer Color Management).

Now only thing you must do is make sure that in printer control panel (Setup) you have ICM activated (this advice is for Windows, dunno about Mac) and it will take care of the final conversion so that the colors on paper will match to what you see.

The monitor's profile (i.e. RGB working space, like what I have now: 'Monitor RGB - Eizo E78F 9300K') is to be considered a color correction profile for your monitor's color reproduction and nothing more.

I hope all this makes sense... fever is rising again :)

[Foreside PhotoGraphics]

dick wrote:

This is where it gets a little tricky. I would start with a RAW image converted "normally" not "linear" to a TIFF file. Use BreezeBrowser or ZoomBrowser to produce this file. Import the file to PS. When you open the file you should "assign" it as sRGB and then "convert" it to Adobe RGB. Edit and color correct this file and then print. You should set up the printer to utilize ICM and printer color management. The input color space should be Adobe RGB.

Dick- (or anyone else smart enough)...

2 questions, if you please...

If I assign the image sRGB and then convert to Adobe RGB(1998), next time I open the image in PS, it states that " the document's embedded profile doesn't match the current RGB working space". It then asks me to:

1) use embedded profile, (instead of the working space),

2) convert document's colors to the working space, or

3) discard the embedded profile (don't color manage).

Which option should I choose if:

1) if I plan to perform additional edits to the image, or

2) if I'm only opening the image for the purpose of printing it?

I am a little confused as to why it is assigned sRGB and then converted to Adobe RGB. Why not assign and convert to the same?

Thanks in advance...

Gary Shepard

[dwalker]

Pekka wrote:
The monitor's profile (i.e. RGB working space, like what I have now: 'Monitor RGB - Eizo E78F 9300K') is to be considered a color correction profile for your monitor's color reproduction and nothing more.

I'm still trying to get the images I'm post processing in PS to look the same (ok, as close as possible) on multiple computers. Once I get the images to look correct in PS, I'm converting to sRGB and 8 bit and then saving. Once they're opened in some other program that doesn't support color spaces, they look lighter and incorrect. If I turn on "Monitor Proofing" before post processing and then convert and save it looks much closer. I've checked this on several different computers at different locations and the best compatability is when I post process with "Monitor proofing" on. Is this incorrect? If not, what am I doing wrong? I'm looking for the most compatability between the images I post process and what my customers will see on their monitors when I provide them with a CD. I will start loosing business if I try to educate them on color spaces. It's just going to sound like excuses. Here's my current work flow:
1. Convert D30 RAW images to Linear.
2. Set PS to default color space of "Adobe RGB 1998".
3. Open the linear files and DO NOT assign a profile.
4. Run the 342 action of my choice.
5. Continue making small changes until satisfied.
6. Convert to 8 bit.
7. Convert to sRGB profile.
8. Save image
At this point, if the image is opened in another image viewer or on another computer (not in PS), the image is too light with some highlights blown out (depending on the image).
What should I do?
In addition, I've carefully rechecked my Adobe Gamma settings just to be sure I've got it as correct as possible.
Pekka, I hope your feeling better.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

2 questions, if you please...

If I assign the image sRGB and then convert to Adobe RGB(1998), next time I open the image in PS, it states that '' the document's embedded profile doesn't match the current RGB working space''. It then asks me to:

1) use embedded profile, (instead of the working space),

2) convert document's colors to the working space, or

3) discard the embedded profile (don't color manage).

Gary,

You are being asked this question because your default working space in PS is not Adobe RGB. Go to Edit>Color Settings and change your RGB working space so avoid getting this every time you open an image.

Which option should I choose if:

1) if I plan to perform additional edits to the image, or

Choose use embedded.

2) if I'm only opening the image for the purpose of printing it?

Same answer, but you may also want to consider a subsequent conversion to a profile that matches your printer/paper or you could do this in Print Options.

I am a little confused as to why it is assigned sRGB and then converted to Adobe RGB. Why not assign and convert to the same?

When you an open a new image file from the D30, it has no associated colour profile, i.e., it is untagged. Assigning a profile initially tags the images, thereafter you must use convert to change the colour profile associated with the image.

Assigning a profile does not change the colour number data in the image, which is why different profiles give different looking images because the colour gamuts are different. Converting to a profile will change the colour number data, so to represent the colours you see, as near as is possible, the same.

Regards,

[Pekka]

dwalker wrote:
I'm still trying to get the images I'm post processing in PS to look the same (ok, as close as possible) on multiple computers. Once I get the images to look correct in PS, I'm converting to sRGB and 8 bit and then saving. Once they're opened in some other program that doesn't support color spaces, they look lighter and incorrect. If I turn on "Monitor Proofing" before post processing and then convert and save it looks much closer. I've checked this on several different computers at different locations and the best compatability is when I post process with "Monitor proofing" on. Is this incorrect? If not, what am I doing wrong?


In my system clicking on 'monitor proofing' shows absolutely no difference, as my working RGB space is monitor's own ICC profile, fixed with AdobeGamma utility.

I'm sure you do nothing 'wrong', it's just there are some very odd features in PS color management which can pull the rug under you and me any time.

Example:
1. make "sRGB" your RGB working space
2. Convert linear TIFF (untagged) with LS 3.42
3. change mode to LAB
4 change mode to RGB
5. Step back in history to LAB

Now change to "AdobeRGB" as your RGB working space.
Step in history forward (to RGB) and you should see really odd colors. Photoshop converts the untagged image to that defined RGB color space and shifts all colors to fit the gamut. But if you would have changed to AdobeRGB BEFORE converting to Lab you would not have that problem.

I've had problems, too, with sRGB output not being the same as intented. Frankly sometimes I have no idea what is going on in Photoshop. Untagging and image (see below) seems to be the only way to secure absolutely that what you see is what you get on non-Adobe systems.

Here's one other "tip": You can verify the result (before saving) by using "Save for Web.." command which brings up unprofiled ImagerReady websave dialog. If the JPEG image colors you see on that dialog does not match the image you see below it on Photoshop you're delivering wrong colors to the unprofiled customer. Note that that command works only on 8-bit photos.

I'm looking for the most compatability between the images I post process and what my customers will see on their monitors when I provide them with a CD. I will start loosing business if I try to educate them on color spaces. It's just going to sound like excuses.

No excuses needed. You can always convert the photo to 'untagged RGB' if you do not know in what software and how the colors are viewed. Conversion to "untagged" is easy:

1. convert to Lab
2. and convert back to RGB

Now you have an untagged RGB image. In the good'old Atari days this kind of photo was called a raw image, which meant it has only the R G and B channel pixels and nothing extra data or info at all. Those days that made it a homemade version of an uncompressed TIFF, but now you _can_ save it as PSD or TIFF.

Actually, the 400-800 sharpeners in 3.42 leave the image in untagged mode. I noticed this today :)


Here's my current work flow:
1. Convert D30 RAW images to Linear.
2. Set PS to default color space of "Adobe RGB 1998".
3. Open the linear files and DO NOT assign a profile.
4. Run the 342 action of my choice.
5. Continue making small changes until satisfied.
6. Convert to 8 bit.
7. Convert to sRGB profile.
8. Save image


This sounds like a completely reasonable workflow. Are you absolutely sure you don't mix assing and convert commands? As Roger said, 'Assign' leaves the data intact and changes what you see, 'convert' changes data to new ICC permanently.


Pekka, I hope your feeling better.


I am feeling a lot better, thanks!

[romeozulu]

This sounds like a completely reasonable workflow. Are you absolutely sure you don't mix assing and convert commands? As Roger said, 'Assign' leaves the data intact and changes what you see, 'convert' changes data to new ICC permanently.

So, step 7 should be:

7. Assign sRGB profile.
not
7. Convert to sRGB profile.

Sorry to pick over a single word, but I fear much of my confusion is over single little words. :-)

[Roger_Cavanagh]

romeozulu wrote:

This sounds like a completely reasonable workflow. Are you absolutely sure you don't mix assing and convert commands? As Roger said, 'Assign' leaves the data intact and changes what you see, 'convert' changes data to new ICC permanently.

So, step 7 should be:

7. Assign sRGB profile.
not
7. Convert to sRGB profile.

Sorry to pick over a single word, but I fear much of my confusion is over single little words. :-)

NO, NO, NO. Pekka is right. What you are with the conversion to sRGB is change the colours so that they will display properly in things like Internet Explorer. Many users have monitors that are not properly profiled or are using less than 32-bit graphics card. sRGB is the "lowest common denominator" that gives them a chance to view your images as you want them to look.

Cheers,

[romeozulu]

OK, now I am really confused.

After bringing the untagged image into PS (as a .TIFF and let's assume it's non-liner, so no conversion is needed), I ASSIGN it as Adobe RGB. Then, after editing, I CONVERT it to sRGB is it's going to be displayed on the web. If it's going to be printed by me, I do nothing with the color space.

If I bing it in as a linar TIFF and convert it using Pekka's actions it is left in WideGaumet. If going to the Web, I CONVERT to sRGB. If it's going to be printed, I CONVERT to AdobeRGB.

I have printing in WideGaumet and it doesn't work. Best result I get for printing is to start with an AdobeRGB.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

romeozulu wrote:
OK, now I am really confused.

After bringing the untagged image into PS (as a .TIFF and let's assume it's non-liner, so no conversion is needed), I ASSIGN it as Adobe RGB.

I don't think you will get the best results by assigning Adobe RGB at this point. This colour space apparently is somewhat different from that of the D30. You would be better off using a non-linear profile built for the D30. Fred Miranda has a free one here:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/Action_profilesPage/index.html

Then convert to Adobe RGB.

Then, after editing, I CONVERT it to sRGB if it's going to be displayed on the web.

And then convert to 8-bit and save as JPG.

If it's going to be printed by me, I do nothing with the color space.

You could do that, but it does depend on the printer you have. If you have ICC profiles for your printer you should get better results using the custom profile and "no colour management" on the printer. You _could_ convert the image to the printer profile, but you don't need to. The printer profile can be specified in File>Print Options. The image data is converted before it is sent to the printer, but the conversion is not permanent.

If I bing it in as a linar TIFF and convert it using Pekka's actions it is left in WideGaumet.

This is what happens. Pekka does recommend leaving the image in Wide Gamut. I am not entirely convinced about this advice, but have done no experiments to refute it.

If going to the Web, I CONVERT to sRGB. If it's going to be printed, I CONVERT to AdobeRGB.

Pekka recommends converting from Wide Gamut via Adobe RGB, i.e.,

Starting in Wide Gamut

For Web:

1. Image>Mode>Convert to Profile>Adobe RGB
2. Image>Mode>Convert to Profile>sRGB

For Print:

1. Image>Mode>Convert to Profile>Adobe RGB
2. File>Print Options?Print Space>

Regards,

[romeozulu]

Thanks. That all makes sense...