What Happened? And rules of Photography

[ilya]

What's happened to this forum? Is it just me, or have we gotten really boring. Is it the cold? Is it the pre-PMA doldrums? Is it that we've run out of stuff to talk about? I'm putting up this thread, gonna go away, and come back later to see if anything happens :roll: Feel free to express your emotions, whether about my obnoxious attitude, anything about photography, or life in general.

Rules of Photography -

a) Are there really rules? Do they exist? Have any of you seen a set of rules on a tablet somewhere? Its interesting that every time someone mentions a rule, its always followed by a comment that implies that if you aren't breaking that rule, you're not a good photographer. Having said that, I totally agree that if photography were to be bound by rules, it might as well be about shooting rulers. Rules = rulers, hey!

b) What's your favorite rule to break. Mine is the one about having a horizontal line or the horizon dissect your photo in half. I find many an instance where a horizontal line in the middle, whether explicit or implicit just works. See photo below.

8)

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=2419519&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

[CyberDyneSystems]

I admit it,. I have not used my equipment 1/20th as muchh as I did through October...

It is just too friggin cold here.. (my shutter has "stuck" on me allready in realtively mild temps.. now it is -8* :(

I break the rule of thirds fairly regularly,. and sometimes I have the subjects looking out of the frame instead of looking in...

[TeraGram93013]

O.M.G. That is beautiful. Well done.

As to the rules... well I think there are rules that apply to different situations/types of photography.

For example, photojournalism has a rule that a picture should tell the real story or maybe a hidden story, but intentionally cropping out a portion of an image which changes the story is verboten. Can I come up with a good example right now? Hell no. Been 20 years since those classes. heh

Shooting kids has a set of rules. Be at the kid's level. Avoid posed shots (not never do posed shots, just avoid them).

Sports photography has rules: stay out of the action of the game/sport unless you want to get hurt.

Of course, those who know the rules are given more permission to bend, if not out and out break them, when they know it is right. But for the beginner? It is much like learning a new language. Those of us who are native speakers of English can get away with breaking certain rules and we will be understood, if not even admired for our witticisms and skillful turns of phrase. A fresh-immigrant to the US or England would probably be mocked or derided for the same useage.

(Absolutely no insult is intended to immigrants of either country.)

Me? My favorite rule to break? Can't say I have one right now. Give me more time with my 10D.

[defordphoto]

I am not book smart when it comes to photography and have taken very, very few classes. I know the basic rules but I don't let any rule, rule what I shoot. I shoot what I shoot. I don't have a favorite rule to break, but the one 'rule' I like to follow when I'm out just shooting whatever is the five-second rule.

If something catches your eye, shoot it within five seconds. It's that look that caught your eye that you want to capture and if you play with it too long, and over-analyze it by applying this or that rule, then you've totally ruined the shot.

After a day's shoot and we get back to the digital darkroom, 9 times out of 10 it's the first shot in the series that's the keeper. I'll take that 'five-second' shot and then I'll shoot several others. Composing. Shooting different angles, different DOF. But almost everytime it's that very first shot that caught my eye to begin with that ends up being the keeper.

The reason I always suggest to people the 'break the rules' is that it opens up the artist in you. Following all those rules are freaking stifling to me and the photographer ends up saying, "I can't take that shot because it'll break such-and-such rule."

Screw that! Take the shot. Bend, break and crush the rules if that's what it takes, but capture the moment. That's the key, no matter what else. Capture the moment. Technique plays second base and if technique gets in the way of capturing the moment that, in my opinion, is a travesty.

Do not ever hesitate, because that moment will be gone forever and no re-composing of any kind will bring it back. Anyone that has shot for many years knows what I'm talking about.

Anyway, that's my two-cents worth...

[Belmondo]

What's happened to this forum? Is it just me, or have we gotten really boring.
Speaking only for myself, I would have to say that indeed, I have become boring. I’ve been posting here for almost 8 months now, and I feel that I’ve achieved a new level of maturity. Part of this change is a direct result of my new year’s resolution. Among some of the things I resolved were:
1. not to use the word ‘booger’ in the forum any more.
2. not to give vvizard any more advice on his personal life.
3. not to comment on the color of non-black cameras.
4. not to post my equipment list on the signature line.
5. not to make disparaging remarks about people who ask dumb questions without first using the search engine or their user’s manual.
6. not to use the N***n word in public.
7. not to comment at all on any thread dealing with flash photography, weddings, or baby pictures.
8. not to make up humorous lists of reasons that DSLR’s are better than P&S cameras.

Another possible reason the forum is becoming boring is that the content is becoming diluted with too many serious questions. Perhaps newbies should be indoctrinated into the art of asking questions in such a way that we can give the pithy answers that are more entertaining than informative.

[defordphoto]

Oh yeah. Nice shot Ilya! ;)

[CyberDyneSystems]

Oh yeah. Nice shot Ilya! ;)

Ditto! :wink:

[ilya]

Cool.

Tera - well said.

Jim, poetic as always

CDS, thanks; and it is colder then **** here as well (I'm just south of you in NJ).

Tom - I agree that this is all your fault. Who made up all these rules for you to follow. You used to be irreverant, subtly poignant and devious (or deviant). Now you are restrained, and probably acting your age. Who authorized your decision to go on the Atkins diet of forum manners? Dude, get some carbs in you. I especially discourage and see no reason to follow rules #s 1,2,3,5, and 8. Furthermore, if you were to make a set of commandments, you need to put in a couple of positive ones - notice all yours are "I shalt Not".

But actually, I'm more in search of interesting topics, rather then accusing the informal moderators of any kind of lapse in creativity. We've been seeing more of the mundane questions - so I agree that newbies need to stop putting up silly polls, read the manual, don't buy in brooklyn, scour the links, quit speculating already, try-it-at-home first, read the manual, and yes, please practice the art of asking questions that make it easy to be pithy.

Cheers everyone
Ilya

[mjordan]

Boring? I guess one person's boring experience is another person's nice relaxing conversation. If you want boring, I can direct you to a couple of other places. :D

Oh, and very nice picture. Was that really taken with a 10D?

Mike

[ilya]

Boring? I guess one person's boring experience is another person's nice relaxing conversation. If you want boring, I can direct you to a couple of other places. :D

Oh, and very nice picture. Was that really taken with a 10D?

Mike

Nice, the first albeit a tiny flame. Do note that this is mostly tongue in cheek. Note that I come in on the weekends and stir **** up. That's what I do. I provide little value otherwise.

Thanks, yes its with 10D. Just to show that I take pictures every once in a while :lol:

[defordphoto]

Didn't take you long to come back. We do okay for ya? :)

[G3Hawaii]

Beautiful picture.

As for rules.... Don't spend more on photo gear than I spend on my wife has served me well....

[defordphoto]

Beautiful picture.

As for rules.... Don't spend more on photo gear than I spend on my wife has served me well....

LOL! That's the number one rule for married photographers. Good one!

[G3Hawaii]

I have to agree.

You're race shots are great. One of these days I'm going to make the step up to the 10D or whatever replaces it next week...

[defordphoto]

Thanks. Yeah. Everyone will be glad when PMA so all these stupid rumors will cease and we can spend more money! :D

[G3Hawaii]

Wish I could stick around in Vegas for a few extra days to see the exhibits/spend a bunch of money, but I'll have to wait like most people and drool over new equipment from a distance...

[chris.bailey]

What's happened to this forum? Is it just me, or have we gotten really boring. Is it the cold? Is it the pre-PMA doldrums? Is it that we've run out of stuff to talk about? I'm putting up this thread, gonna go away, and come back later to see if anything happens :roll: Feel free to express your emotions, whether about my obnoxious attitude, anything about photography, or life in general.

As a relative newbie, I would say that there is more talk about photography these days rather than long boring threads of two people getting down and dirty with each other. I would call it mature rather than boring.

As for breaking the rules, remember those photos that you keep going back to as being favourites. Most of them break all the rules, mine do any way. As RFM said, the important thing is to press the shutter, not stop and think. Film was different, you had 24 or 36 goes before changing film but really you would only want to fire off 2 or 3. Now we complain because our 512 card ONLY takes 90 shots. With film I very rarely put my camera on multi. Now the 10D is rarely off of it.

[RichardtheSane]

The forum for me has lost a bit of appeal and become fairly humourless. I think this was due to the number of people who were coming in, reading a few posts, then flaming us for the jokes because they didn't understand them.

A different color body doesn't make you a better photographer, even a novice knows that. but for some reason, it does seem to give you an overly inflated sense of superioity.

That is what I got from some arrogant fool after one of my jokes. Really put me off.

[Belmondo]

The forum for me has lost a bit of appeal and become fairly humourless. I think this was due to the number of people who were coming in, reading a few posts, then flaming us for the jokes because they didn't understand them.

A different color body doesn't make you a better photographer, even a novice knows that. but for some reason, it does seem to give you an overly inflated sense of superioity.

That is what I got from some arrogant fool after one of my jokes. Really put me off.

Richard:
You are an insensitive cad, and should be rebuked for making jokes about 'less-than-black' cameras.

All joking aside (like that's going to happen), maybe we need an FAQ with which we can administer attitude adjustments to some of the newer, humour-challenged members of this forum. In truth, I see a lot less of the antagonism that crops up occasionally---probably becasue Ilya is only posting on weekends now.

This forum remains some of the best fun (and cheapest therapy) known to mankind. If it's in something of a funk right now, I tribute that to the following:

Winter
Too many new names to keep track of
Ben and Jen’s breakup.

Things will be better in the spring.

[iwatkins]

Nice thread, and nice shot :D

Rules ? I break them all the time, mainly because I cannot remember them.

Only rules I use from time to time is the rule of thirds or if I'm trying to be more accurate the Golden Section. The latter really does work (well, I think so) and can make an OK image into a good image. I'll try and post something later.

The only rules I always use are:

1. Charge batteries on return from shooting. Always, without fail.
2. Clean camera and especially lenses after shooting.
3. Always have all my kit ready to go. Always.
4. Hide all receipts for new kit away somewhere.

Cheers

Ian

[IanD]

[quote="belmondo
Ben and Jen’s breakup.
Things will be better in the spring.[/quote]
Ben and Jerry broke up :?:
My God :!: What is going to happen to all that ice cream.
Got to run out and stock up on Cherry Garcia right now :!:
See you all later
Ian

[jim monroe]

Boring? Aw, before long we will all begin reminiscing about the good old days with threads started by mishkin? javascript:emoticon(':D')
Very Happy

Actually I started visiting the forum in July and joined the forum in August and loads of people were taking pictures of rulers. Now its 4 degrees here this morning in PA and all you can do is pretty much take pictures of rulers but there are no ruler threads. Whats going on???? I guess its all in the timing.

[ron chappel]

My favorite to break would be the 'no horizon in the middle' bullspit.

All in all i'd rather learn about photographic 'rules' by asking a learner why they like certain pictures rather than asking an 'expert' spout meaningless stuff.

[TeraGram93013]

maybe we need an FAQ

That would a nice exercise in wasted time.

It would help explain, however, the non-black camera issue.

- T, has a nice matte-black camera.

[PaulB]

I'm probably misquoting here and cannot remember where the quote comes from anyway, but here goes:
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools"

[Canuck]

maybe we need an FAQ


The FAQ is being created, just trust me on this one. When you will see it is to be determined, hopefully in the not to distant future.

[mpkirby]

My favorite rule to break is the one that says the subject must be in focus. I mean...most of us will wear glasses by the time we are 40 anyway....

I do art for those who get up early in the morning, and haven't put in their contacts yet.

:-)

Mike

[Belmondo]

I do art for those who get up early in the morning, and haven't put in their contacts yet.


Remember, Mike, if you take an out-of-focus photograph with a point-and-shoot camera, it's the camera's fault. If you take one with a DSLR, it's art.

I speak from the perspective of one who has produced a great deal of 'art.'
:wink:

[ilya]

As for rules.... Don't spend more on photo gear than I spend on my wife has served me well.... He he he. That's interesting, cause that's true.


A different color body doesn't make you a better photographer, even a novice knows that. but for some reason, it does seem to give you an overly inflated sense of superioity.

That is what I got from some arrogant fool after one of my jokes. Really put me off.

You know and most everyone else around here knows that's just some fool talking out of his a**. We see this sometimes, once in a while some transient newbie comes through, and flames a valued and experienced member of the community for something they have no clue about, or don't get the "inside joke". That's just bad manners and not thinking before one speaks. Those opinions just don't matter.


Boring? Aw, before long we will all begin reminiscing about the good old days with threads started by mishkin

Though Mishkin did two things well - a) stirred things up; b) provided a lot of factual information to help folks better understand the ins and outs of auto focusing. The only problem there, imo, was that his contention was that the AF problem on the 10D was much more widespread then it really is, which caused some folks to reconsider purchasing a great cam. Mishkin gave us two terrific and often useful concepts ~ measurbating, and shooting rulers. (no question he was a bit over the edge though).



This forum remains some of the best fun (and cheapest therapy) known to mankind. If it's in something of a funk right now, I tribute that to the following:

Winter
Too many new names to keep track of
Ben and Jen’s breakup.

Things will be better in the spring.

So true, on all counts.

[Tom W]

Boring? Aw, before long we will all begin reminiscing about the good old days with threads started by mishkin? javascript:emoticon(':D')
Very Happy

Actually I started visiting the forum in July and joined the forum in August and loads of people were taking pictures of rulers. Now its 4 degrees here this morning in PA and all you can do is pretty much take pictures of rulers but there are no ruler threads. Whats going on???? I guess its all in the timing.

Did someone say "rulers"?

http://home.comcast.net/~trwilk3/Images/Ruler2.jpg

[TeraGram93013]

Nice shot, except that only some of them are rulers.

I also see measures, rules and scales (and a few things whose names are escaping me right now). :lol:

[IanD]

TomW wins the ruler competition :lol:

[Tom W]

Nice shot, except that only some of them are rulers.

I also see measures, rules and scales (and a few things whose names are escaping me right now). :lol:

Vernier calipers, for one. And tape measures, which can be used as a ruler. And, the famous slide rule, which is technically a ruler, even if it is useless for linear measurement. The big yellow one is a drywall ruler, though some would call it a drywall scale. Same for the "L"-shaped thing which some would refer to as a scale. Jobsite slang for it is "square".

Around here, anything with linear marks on it and a reasonably straight edge is a ruler.

[ilya]

TomW

I can prove that you are backfocusing on the front part of your calipers (i was not convinced enough with your rulers - are they calibrated to standards?

The diameter d of the circle of confusion (CoC) due to misfocus can be calculated using the simple geometrical relationship

d = dx/F

where F is the aperture. The size of CoC in pixels is equal to this number in microns divided by 10D's pixel size, 7.4 microns:

d[pixels] = d[microns]/7.4

When the image from 10D's 22.7x15.1mm sensor is magnified to a 8x10" print, the CoC is magnified 13.5 times (8"/15.1mm = 13.5), thus the CoC in 8x10" print is

d[mm in print] = d[microns]/1000·13.5

I also estimate the effective resolution in this test. This is hard to calculate precisely (it depends on lens' bokeh, sensor's AA filter strength, and many other factors), but for illustrative purposes I use this simple approximation of effective resolution in megapixels:

R = 6.3/max(3.14·d2/4, 1)

where d is CoC in pixels. Basically, what this equation means is, if the area of CoC circle is less than the area of 1 pixel, the camera's resolution is not affected by misfocus and is equal to 6.3MP. If it's greater than 1 pixel, the resolution is decreased inversely proportional with the CoC area.

So your R is NOT inversely proportional with the Circle of Confusion, and therefore, you camera is front-backfocused.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

[Belmondo]

Speaking of back focus, got any Jennifer Lopez pictures?

And Tom W., isn't Al Gore the ruler of Tennessee? (or former ruler, or would-be ruler, or vice-ruler once removed?)

[IanD]

TomW

I can prove that you are backfocusing on the front part of your calipers (i was not convinced enough with your rulers - are they calibrated to standards?

The diameter d of the circle of confusion (CoC) due to misfocus can be calculated using the simple geometrical relationship

d = dx/F

where F is the aperture. The size of CoC in pixels is equal to this number in microns divided by 10D's pixel size, 7.4 microns:

d[pixels] = d[microns]/7.4

When the image from 10D's 22.7x15.1mm sensor is magnified to a 8x10" print, the CoC is magnified 13.5 times (8"/15.1mm = 13.5), thus the CoC in 8x10" print is

d[mm in print] = d[microns]/1000·13.5

I also estimate the effective resolution in this test. This is hard to calculate precisely (it depends on lens' bokeh, sensor's AA filter strength, and many other factors), but for illustrative purposes I use this simple approximation of effective resolution in megapixels:

R = 6.3/max(3.14·d2/4, 1)

where d is CoC in pixels. Basically, what this equation means is, if the area of CoC circle is less than the area of 1 pixel, the camera's resolution is not affected by misfocus and is equal to 6.3MP. If it's greater than 1 pixel, the resolution is decreased inversely proportional with the CoC area.

So your R is NOT inversely proportional with the Circle of Confusion, and therefore, you camera is front-backfocused.

:shock: :shock: :shock:
ilya,
in the underlined section should that not be
R = 6.3/max(3.14:=d2/4, 1) :?:
:p
Ian

[ilya]

Is Gitzo trying to teach you math again :roll: So you're proposing to replace the "." multiplier with a ":=", which I think if I recall correctly is the universally accepted 3-legged mule concatenator. Hmm, let me consult with Mishkin, be back to you. :lol:

[Tom W]

TomW

I can prove that you are backfocusing on the front part of your calipers (i was not convinced enough with your rulers - are they calibrated to standards?


(delete a post that was a circle of confusion in itself) :)



So your R is NOT inversely proportional with the Circle of Confusion, and therefore, you camera is front-backfocused.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Are you sure that isn't bass-ackwards?

I may have to try again, this time focusing on another ruler. The calipers may well be defective.

[Tom W]

Speaking of back focus, got any Jennifer Lopez pictures?

And Tom W., isn't Al Gore the ruler of Tennessee? (or former ruler, or would-be ruler, or vice-ruler once removed?)

Yes, J-Lo is an appropriate subject for testing back-focus. :D

As for AlGore, I don't believe he's ever actually been to Tennessee, or anywhere outside of the DC area for that matter.

[jim monroe]

ilya,
I thought some readers might take my reference to mishkin in a negative way but I didn't mean it that way. I agree with you he 1.)stirred things up and for me in a generally constructive way and 2.) had a lot of factual information.
I just mentioned his name because he was the opposite of boring and I knew many other readers would remember back to the intense, maybe heated, discussions.
jim

[defordphoto]

Did someone say "rulers"?

:lol: :lol:

This is priceless! I am keeping that one handy for future use!

[ilya]

ilya,
I thought some readers might take my reference to mishkin in a negative way but I didn't mean it that way. I agree with you he 1.)stirred things up and for me in a generally constructive way and 2.) had a lot of factual information.
I just mentioned his name because he was the opposite of boring and I knew many other readers would remember back to the intense, maybe heated, discussions.
jim
No issue, we agree. The bad thing about Mishkin was that his theory which he didn't prove was that all 10Ds had a design flaw, rather then just accepting that he got a bad copy and taking it to Canon; so his quest was causing folks to think that many 10Ds have a focus prob.

[IanD]

[quote="Tom W

I may have to try again, this time focusing on another ruler. The calipers may well be defective.[/quote]
Tom,
I think I have figured out your focusing problem. Change the background. Shag carpet is too textured and is fooling the AF into thinking that the rulers and other assorted measuring devices are on a non-linear subsurface that is comprised of peaks and valleys thusly trying to focus on the peaks and valleys creating a front/back (better known as bass-ackwards) focal plane. :lol:

[ilya]

Speaking of back focus, got any Jennifer Lopez pictures?

And Tom W., isn't Al Gore the ruler of Tennessee? (or former ruler, or would-be ruler, or vice-ruler once removed?)


How's this ~

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=2526349&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

[Tom W]

How's this ~

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=2526349&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Consider me back-focused! :twisted:

[Tom W]

Tom,
I think I have figured out your focusing problem. Change the background. Shag carpet is too textured and is fooling the AF into thinking that the rulers and other assorted measuring devices are on a non-linear subsurface that is comprised of peaks and valleys thusly trying to focus on the peaks and valleys creating a front/back (better known as bass-ackwards) focal plane. :lol:

I'm considering just mowing the carpet. If you look at each nylon thread as a pixel, I can even the pixels out with my lawn mower thus creating the illusion of a flat surface.

Should I mulch or bag the clippings?

[Belmondo]

Should I mulch or bag the clippings?

Send them to IanD to feed to Gitzo. That a** will eat anything. (Gitzo---not Ian)

:wink:

[Tom W]

Should I mulch or bag the clippings?

Send them to IanD to feed to Gitzo. That a** will eat anything. (Gitzo---not Ian)

:wink:

ROFL - Wickedly excellent! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[IanD]

Should I mulch or bag the clippings?

Send them to IanD to feed to Gitzo. That a** will eat anything. (Gitzo---not Ian)

:wink:
After picking up the 17-40L on Thursday I might just end up sharing the clippings with Gitzo. :lol:
TomW
Bagged, please
Ian :D

[Belmondo]

You know, this forum had moved to a significantly higher intellectual plane in recent weeks, but just one shot over the bow from Ilya, and here we are all rolling around in banality and contemptible silliness. I fear we might possibly incur the wrath of our more serious constituents if we keep this up. Still, there is hope; we have not yet sunk to the depths of weeks ago when we were encouraging people to sell their wives and children just to buy L glass.

This thread has been a breath of fresh air. Let us not lose our way again. And where is Bob Gross when we really need him the most?

[IanD]

[color=red]You know, this forum had moved to a Still, there is hope; we have not yet sunk to the depths of weeks ago when we were encouraging people to sell their wives and children just to buy L glass.
color]
Hey, how come no one told be about the "wife and kids" sale. What is the going price :?: Got 2 kids, one with offspring and a wife. :lol:

[CyberDyneSystems]

You know, this forum had moved to a significantly higher intellectual plane in recent weeks, but just one shot over the bow from Ilya, and here we are all rolling around in banality and contemptible silliness. I fear we might possibly incur the wrath of our more serious constituents if we keep this up. Still, there is hope; we have not yet sunk to the depths of weeks ago when we were encouraging people to sell their wives and children just to buy L glass.

This thread has been a breath of fresh air. Let us not lose our way again. And where is Bob Gross when we really need him the most?

Indeed!!!!!

Thanks Ilya! :mrgreen:

[ilya]

Hey, thanks :D I'm just trying to uphold the tradition you all started. This is the atmosphere and the attitude that attracted me to this board. Any board can drone on about lenses and dust bunnies. Its this spirit that gives it the added value. Personality goes a long way. :wink:

[woodsmth]

I only found this forum about a month ago. Trying to learn all I could about my new Drebel , how to take better photographs , and how to use software to make the ones that weren't so good better. That I've done and still am doing everyday! The thing that brings me to this forum first everyday is the fact that it is also a wonderful place to get a good laugh...and this thread is breaking me up!


Thank you and keep up the good work! I love it here!