Thinking ahead

[the new kid]

Hey

My name is Jr i'm from NYC,
I probably have no business in this forum, but i'm going to give it a shot :oops:

Me and my wife was thinking about getting into photography for weddings or other events, since we have about 7 more years before we can retire.
Something we'll be able to do together and earn some money.

My background as a photographer is absolutetly none
people say i take nice pictures ,, all done with a basic digital camera :lol:

I guess i need some guidance where to start .. any books you can recommend, maybe in the "book for dummies" level :p
we want to concentrate on weddings and sports ex; little league games and so forth. i would hate to learn and spend more money in the future to buy a better camera. my budget for a camera is about $1,500. i need something thats going to do the job now andd once i learn the basics and i'll be able to use the same camera for the future gigs

im looking forward to your respose and i have a good feeling im going to learn alot from you guys (and gals ) :cool:

Once again... thank you!

[GPR1]

Your budget for camera with first lens is about $1,500, or just camera body?

You'll find a great deal of information here if you seach the archives as well. Look on the wedding forum for info on that field specifically.

Greg

[the new kid]

$1,500 for camera body ..
i would rather spend the money on a good camera then buy one now and another one later after i learned

[Wilt]

New kid, you need to change your head space before really considering covering weddings professionally. This is THE BIG DAY for most brides. The idea of any so-called professional who thinks this equipment will not have to evolve and get updated -- especially in this rapidly paced world of digital camera evolution -- to do business 8 years from now makes me shudder (for the bride). Go shoot those sport shots, offer portraits to parents, shoot infant photos on location, do ANYTHING other than shoot weddings, if you will have the attitude of 'spend minimally, make money professionally'. I would not even hire a painter who used 50 cent throwaway brushes to paint instead of good quality brushes. A professional needs to have profesional tools and knowledge in support of his profession. Build the knowledge AND be willing to spend money on your needed equipment, and only offer wedding coverage if you have done both.

[the new kid]

good point on the fast paced technology . i wanted to start now so in 8 years i would have the knowledge and experience. why would that make you shudder? you don't think in 8 years a person can't learn and become good photographers? i didn't say the best .. Maybe you misunderstood ,, one how would i know $1,500 is not enough?.. i saw a few cameras example canon rebel xti so i thought $1,500 was enough and two of course not tomorrow or next week after i get camera... i did say 8 years from now. which i think its enough time to learn before i start wedding and so forth
please save your sarcasm, like i said I'm the new kid , who is trying to learn a few things ,,
PS; very surprised on your comment Mr gold member with over,000 post.. lets be a little more supportive ,

Anyway .. thank you

[Wilt]

What was not making me shudder was the accumlation of 8 yr experience. What was making me shudder is the idea of 8 year old digital cameras being good enough to shoot weddings professionally!

'Being supportive'... I was trying to adjust your head space (based perhaps on misperceptions). But what is wrong with being critical of someone with amateurish intentions in an area where some professionalism is needed? I was not trying to be sarcastic. I was trying to illustrate that buyers select on criteria other than a warm body with a camera (or paintbrush), and while it is possible to repaint it is not so possible to capture the spontaneous photos of weddings and receptions. So it is more crucial we do a good job for our clients.

There are too many hack 'wedding photographers' and I have read too many posts on POTN from seasoned female photographers who severely regret the hack job that they had hired as young brides!

[the new kid]

your point is well taken ,,, hopefully one day i wont dissapoint you :)

[saravrose]

Here's my suggestion if you have eight years before you decide to go professional with wedding shoots.. Buy yourself some gear the best you can afford as of right now.. learn to shoot.. learn your camera inside and out.. all the technical aspects of photography it will take some real time.. See how much you really enjoy it.. take it up as a hobby or a fun way to pass the time with our without your wife.. although I suggest with.. when you feel like you have a good idea of what your camera is capable of and how to get the results you want offer to do some portraits for family and friends.. build up from there.. having a goal to build to is commendable and smart.. But, it's early days yet.. get to know the technical and artistic aspects of photography before adding in the business portion.. decide if you enjoy the day to day part of shooting before setting your eye on how much money this is going to bring in.. discover your artistic eye and talent.. which will bring you much, much more success.. not to mention personal satisfaction..

sari

[Wilt]

your point is well taken ,,, hopefully one day i wont dissapoint you

What is most important is not disappointing the client!

If we all keep that in mind, we can provide the highest quality products and services. The real thrill for me isn't the check, but primarily it is that fact that the client loves the results enough to refer others!

[-MasterChief-]

here's one thing ive learned in this business. dont skimp on the lenses! get good quality lenses -- they are faster, sharper, and will yield a lot more keepers than el' cheapo lenses (of course, there are exceptions to this rule i.e. Canon EF 50mm f1.8).

also, for wedding photography, you will need a lot more than $1500 to start with. you have to have backups for everything: a backup camera body, lenses, backup flash, lots of CF cards, and lots of batteries! its murphy's photography law that the one thing you dont have a backup for is the one thing that fails!

find a professional photographer and ask if you can assist him/her on some weddings -- this will give you a feel for what's involved, angles, and pacing. GOOD LUCK and welcome to POTN!

[the new kid]

thank you guys ,,, any recomendations to start with, books? cameras?

[CanonCam]

Books....I say Bryan Peterson's books are great to start with. "Understanding Exposure" and "Learning to See Creatively". I learned a great deal from them both and still pick them up from time to time to revisit them.

[the new kid]

thanks and for a camera?

[saravrose]

thanks and for a camera?

all up to your personal preferences and what you can afford.. as far as prices/quality goes..

300D (original rebel)
350D (rebel XT)
400D (rebel XTi)
20D
30D
5D

as far as prices anywhere from 500 to 2,500.. before you get into the higher end bodies anyway...


sari

[the new kid]

THANK YOU

[DocFrankenstein]

Since you're not planning on starting to be paid from the start, get yourself a rebel with the kit lens and shoot with that until you learn the technique.

[Claire]

As you're new to photography period, I'd also advice you to get a rebel with kit lens and start shooting with that one. They're a good price and you'll learn to handle a camera.

Eight years is plenty of time to learn how to be a good photographer in my opinion, but in all honesty, no offense, some people will never be good photographers at all.

If you've never done any photography, do try it out for fun. Experiment. Learn. Try different subjects (landscape, nature, sports, portraits etc). That way you'll also see what subject suits you best.

May I ask why you want to get into sports and weddings? How did you decide this? Because you think it'll be fun? Because that's your main interests? Or you think you'll be good at those areas? When I started photographing I started with landscape and nature stuff as they were easily accessible. I knew I wanted to learn more about portraiture and began to slowly use friends as models. Turns out I have a decent eye for it, but I could very well have turned out to be absolutely crap at it. How do you know you'll be good at sports and/or weddings?

[likophoto]

here's one thing ive learned in this business. dont skimp on the lenses!

Lenses are very very important. I do about a wedding or two per year, so I can't justify sitting on $4k worth of lenses. So I rent them. Here in Seattle there's a place that's called Glazer's (http://www.glazerscamera.com/files/rentals.pdf) and they have good prices on nice lenses. I call way in advance and reserve all the proper equipment I need for the wedding day. They let me have the lenses for the price of one day over the weekend. Since most weddings are on the weekends, it works out great. So for about $60 ($30 + $30) I can rent both the 16-35L 2.8 L and the 70-200 f2.8 IS.

[dmp-potn]

Hello,

I think this is a fine idea, but I would recommend that you start with the least expensive (Canon) DSLR that you can find and pair it with a nice lens. Eight years from now, you won't be using the same camera body, no matter which one you buy, but chances are good that you'll still be using some of the same lenses, so it makes sense to put your investment there.

I'd suggest that you grab a Rebel XT/350D (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=371189) ($539 at B&H) and a nice lens:

EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=264304)
EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=397662)

You may ultimately need something longer than this for portrait and sports photography, but start learning with one of these two. You'll always have a use for them. You can add an EF 135mm f/2.0L USM (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=112539) or EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=234444) later.

Next, I would start taking some photography classes at a place like http://betterphoto.com/ or a local camera shop.

Since you've joined this forum, I assume that you have a computer. That's a good thing. Depending on your level of interest in post processing v.s. getting the final shot in-camera, you'll eventually need some photo editing software. There are lots of entry level packages out there, but starting with Adobe is probably the smart thing to do.

If you're not ready to spend $600 on Photoshop CS2, start with Photoshop Elements. If you do, you'll probably want to install these extra plugins (http://member.melbpc.org.au/~pshipley/), which add curves and other neat bits to Elements.

Thinking ahead to your next career choice is a smart thing to do. Good luck!

[DigiGrin]

What is most important is not disappointing the client!
If we all keep that in mind, we can provide the highest quality products and services. The real thrill for me isn't the check, but primarily it is that fact that the client loves the results enough to refer others!
Amen !!!

find a professional photographer and ask if you can assist him/her on some weddings -- this will give you a feel for what's involved, angles, and pacing. GOOD LUCK and welcome to POTN!
I couldnt have said it any better myself .. as a matter of fact, it's how I got started in the business.
This is the best advice so far .. what are you waiting for? :p

[Jon, The Elder]

Very, very few people buy a Ferarri and then take drivers Ed.

[Converge]

New Kid,
If you are looking for instruction, check out http://www.ppsop.com

This is Bryan Petersons photography school. They will have PLENTY of courses for you to take.

[rhys]

My suggestion. The camera and lenses you buy now probably won't be the same that you'll be using in 8 years. So... buy something you can learn on and then when 8 years arrives you'll know what suits you best. Who knows - by then you might be more into landscapes than weddings.

My suggestion for a starter kit (please guys don't flame me for my suggestions).
Pentax K100D with Tamron 17-50, Tamron 28-75, Sigma 70-200.
Ok. That'll set you back a bit more than your $1500. So... Let's look specifically at cameras/bodies with weddings in mind...

Pentax K100D with Tamron 17-50/Sigma 18-50 and Sigma 50-150.

Why do I suggest the K100D? Because it has in-body image stabilisation and runs off AA batteries - the same kind of battery that power your flash, GPS, radio, flashlight and just about anything else you might own. It also has 6 megapixels which is ample for weddings - most brides and grooms don't need photos as big as 20x30 yet 6mp will do a 20x30. Most will want no larger than 8x10. Typically most B&G have one 8x10 of them at the altar and some 5x7s of other shots. The rest are left as 6x4s or as the contact prints in the sample album.

Why not Canon? Simply because they don't yet have in-body IS. I feel that they will introduce it in a couple of years due to economic pressures. By then the in-body gang (Pentax and Sony) will have started to attract so many people away from Canon and Nikon because a simple, cheap lens will have stabilisation as opposed to Canon's $500 extra on each lens that has IS that in order to compete they'll have to introduce it. IS in lenses might not be phased out though. Imagine if the synchronisation were combined in such a way as the IS was doubly powerful. Not just 2-3 stops of improvement but 5-6. Imagine being able with a handheld 50mm lens to take a picture at 1/2 second exposure and still having it crisp!

The digital camera market is progressing very fast at the moment. I can't see that in 7 years most of the current digital SLRs will even be functioning. Electronics have a fairly short life. Maybe 10 years before most break and need repairs. When that happens largely it's cheaper to bin it and buy new. Classic example - calculators - they cost thousands when they were new in the 1970s. Now you can buy them for very little. As to repairs... the repairman's time is worth more than the calculator. Digital compacts - my 995 was over a thousand pounds when it first came out. I paid 400 pounds. Now it's probably worth maybe 50 pounds on the secondhand market - if that. As to repairs... I'd just buy new. The repairman would charge about 80 pounds just to look at it.

So... in 8 years you might decide to change to Canon or Nikon or stay with Pentax. Who knows even Kellogs might have a digital SLR on the market by then. Pentax has just merged with Hoya. Hoya is part of the Tokina, Hoya Kenko group. Sony bought out Minolta's camera division. Kodak stopped making digital SLRs as did Contax/Yashica. In 5 years even Canon and Nikon might have vanished.

[liza]

You also need to learn the business of photography. Take some business and marketing classes. Tax problems and not having a sound business plan are the main reasons why people who want to "go pro" lose their shirts in just a couple of years. Also start setting aside money for professional equipment. The minimum investment in equipment for a wedding shooter these days is around 10 to 15K.

[rhys]

You also need to learn the business of photography. Take some business and marketing classes. Tax problems and not having a sound business plan are the main reasons why people who want to "go pro" lose their shirts in just a couple of years. Also start setting aside money for professional equipment. The minimum investment in equipment for a wedding shooter these days is around 10 to 15K.

Don't scare the guy. Everybody started with less than that. I know of one guy that started with a single 300D and kit lens.

[Jon, The Elder]

That was me.

[liza]

Don't scare the guy. Everybody started with less than that. I know of one guy that started with a single 300D and kit lens.

He needs to know what he's getting himself into before he starts dropping a lot of money. Shooting weddings and sports isn't easy, and neither is running your own business. He asked the question. I'm just trying to answer it.

[Wilt]

Don't scare the guy. Everybody started with less than that. I know of one guy that started with a single 300D and kit lens.

Realistic expections are what is needed, not idealism. Far too many small businesses fail, and drain the family financial resources because craftsmen failed to think in purely business terms. Sometimes craftsmen should simply accept working under others, even as subcontractors, because they fail to have necessary business smarts.

(The poor reputation of most building contractors is probably an indication of the lack of business smarts, and the fact they simply chase the money. How many good building experiences in remodel projects have you heard among friends and relatives???)

[rhys]

Realistic expections are what is needed, not idealism. Far too many small businesses fail, and drain the family financial resources because craftsmen failed to think in purely business terms. Sometimes craftsmen should simply accept working under others, even as subcontractors, because they fail to have necessary business smarts.

(The poor reputation of most building contractors is probably an indication of the lack of business smarts, and the fact they simply chase the money. How many good building experiences in remodel projects have you heard among friends and relatives???)

The failure with most building projects is not the contractors fault. The Foreman makes the project work. The contractors do what the foreman says and at any time inspectors can and should be called in - that's the owner's responsibility.

We can and should only give camera advice here and suggestions as to who to talk to about business. We're not business advisors nor lawyers. Many of us do run businesses but our experiences might be very different due to local regulations/legislation, customer-base and other issues. None of those are best discussed here.

[rhys]

That was me.

I knew Jamison said that's how he started. I guess there's more than one that started simply.

[Wilt]

The failure with most building projects is not the contractors fault. The Foreman makes the project work. The contractors do what the foreman says and at any time inspectors can and should be called in - that's the owner's responsibility..

Oh you haven't experienced when the home owner is unable to get people to work on his home to finish per the timetable, and when complaints are made about substandard work that needs correcting, it goes on uncorrected for months. But this is off topic.

We can and should only give camera advice here and suggestions as to who to talk to about business. We're not business advisors nor lawyers. Many of us do run businesses but our experiences might be very different due to local regulations/legislation, customer-base and other issues. None of those are best discussed here.

I guess you overlooked the fact that this forum is called 'The Business of Photography' and we are advising about those aspects, not technical matters, in accordance with the purpose of this forum!

[rhys]

Oh you haven't experienced when the home owner is unable to get people to work on his home to finish per the timetable, and when complaints are made about substandard work that needs correcting, it goes on uncorrected for months. But this is off topic.


Hang on... if the substandard work is not contracted within an appropriate timeframe then if the homeowner has been careful with his contract the contracter is fired. My in-laws are building a palace as the right wing of their house. They've had contractors do strange stuff but they keep on top of it and it gets sorted out within a week. For example the contractor decided to lift the roof off the palace and broke the first crane they hired then the second lifted the roof which they then promptly dropped and had to reconstruct from scratch. This was all handled by my in-laws foreman.

Yes - the building is a little behind schedule but as it's a gigantic project the little over-run isn't too unexpected. I always said a December completion was a little ambitoius and that March would be more likely. Looks like I was right.


I guess you overlooked the fact that this forum is called 'The Business of Photography' and we are advising about those aspects, not technical matters, in accordance with the purpose of this forum!

Yes but nothing stated here can take the place of proper legal advice. What's stated here in terms of business advice has no legal basis and can be completely wrong even with the best intentions.

[Wilt]

Hang on... if the substandard work is not contracted within an appropriate timeframe then if the homeowner has been careful with his contract the contracter is fired. Yes but nothing stated here can take the place of proper legal advice. What's stated here in terms of business advice has no legal basis and can be completely wrong even with the best intentions.

I supposed my friend, the head of the legal department of a $1 billion corporation and secretary of the Board of Directors, would be interested to hear how he apparently botched handling the remodel of his home before moving in, which took over a year beyond the timetable !


Yes but nothing stated here can take the place of proper legal advice. What's stated here in terms of business advice has no legal basis and can be completely wrong even with the best intentions.

But we offered no legal opinions nor advice, but merely made recommendations of prudent actions to take in preparation for trying to start a small business, irregardless of legal specifics in the country of origin.

[canonphotog]

I supposed my friend, the head of the legal department of a $1 billion corporation and secretary of the Board of Directors, would be interested to hear how he apparently botched handling the remodel of his home before moving in, which took over a year beyond the timetable !


I'm sure he heard about it every day during that extra year from his wife. Why remind him? :lol:

[Bob_A]

thank you guys ,,, any recomendations to start with, books? cameras?

I'd strongly recommend that both you and your wife take some photography courses from your local community college if you are eventually wanting to turn your hobby into a professional gig. Also, if you don't have a background running your own business, you should also take some small business courses.

Get some gear, read the books that have been suggested, take some classes and post a lot of your images in the critique section here.

[rhys]

My local college offers "wedding photography" classes. The only problem is that I don't feel that $85 means it'd be a very good course.

Personally, I think that if somebody can take photos that a wedding photography class is not what they need. What they need instead is - I feel - courses in personnel management and communication.

[Bob_A]

oh ... and recognize if you stink as a photographer, and if you do, don't get into it to shoot weddings professionally. I've been shooting with an SLR for 30 years, and I just don't have what it takes to get the results as a pro. Hopefully you'll be fantastic. :)

[StealthLude]

id start with a 30D camera for sure. Its a great camera that you can grow into. Very powerful. But the lens is where its going to cost you$$$

Weddings photos have some VERY expencive glass. Lenes can cost anywhere from $500 to 2k each.