Ok, just got my Digital Rebel...now what...

[Johnnynf]

I just picked up a Digital Rebel from Circuit City today (I know, but every other place in town has like a 3 week wait on them...and I wanted it now!). I am fairly familiar with the features of the camera itself. I also have a Rebel Ti, and the features and shooting modes are almost identical. But when it comes to trying to process the photos on the computer, I feel like I have no clue whatsoever...and the manual has been very confusing. Let me start by saying that I already have a small Canon 4x6 photo printer and I WAS able to print out the pictures from the camera. But other than that...I am lost. So I guess my question to all of you is can anyone help me out a little? Does anyone have a link to a website that might tell me some more in "idiot" language? Also:

1. From reading this forum, I understand that shooting in RAW gives you the best overall picture quality (which I definately want). But, in RAW, you cannot print the images directly from the camera. I read the section in the manual that tells how to "mess with" the RAW images (i.e. change white balance, exposure, etc.), but I can't seem to find any place that simply explains how to just print them, without messing with any of the settings. (I want to first figure out simply how to print them or get them into a format that will alow me to take it to the one hour photo and make prints, and then I will learn how to "play with everything" later).

2. Can I take the CF card with the RAW images stored on it to the local one hour photo and have them make prints for me? If not, I obviously need to put them on a CD or something, but how do you do that?

3. I also understand that when shooting in RAW, the camera also saves the image in JPEG format at the same time. What is the purpose of this?

I realize that most of these questions are probably extremely stupid, but I am totally new to the digital photography realm. Treat me like I know nothing (I promise, I won't be offended). Thanks in advance to all those who are brave enough to respond. If you do respond, expect follow up questions to come later.

[Belmondo]

I think you're probably a little ahead of yourself by starting out shooting in RAW. It requires that you have the hardware and software necessary for post-processing an image to get the full benefit of a RAW image, and you're not even familiar with the camera yet. True, most of us prefer working in RAW, but very few of us started there. It's something that will ultimately help you extract the last little bit of potential from an image, but it doesn't do a single thing about teaching how to capture the image in the first place.

I suspect a lot of people are going to jump all over me for taking this position, but it just isn't necessary. In fact, it adds layers of difficulty to a process that's already bewildering to a lot of new users.

Good luck with your Rebel, though. You're on your way.

[nosquare2003]

To process the file in your computer? I think that the first step is to calibrate the monitor, printers... Try to search with "colour management" to start with.

[ilya]

Welcome to the forum and congrats on your acquisition.

Tom's right. Raw carries lots of baggage - the right processor, disk space, more settings to mess around with, less pics on a flash card, you can't view them in Windows (unless patched), etc.

Raw doesn't automatically give you better quality pictures, it gives you more flexibility in post processing to get the most out of your picture. It allows you more margin for error.

I can't seem to find any place that simply explains how to just print them, without messing with any of the settings. (I want to first figure out simply how to print them or get them into a format that will alow me to take it to the one hour photo and make prints, and then I will learn how to "play with everything" later).

Sorry, you can't. The Raw format is a digital negative, it just has a bunch of unprocessed code that needs to be converted into an image by the Canon's File Viewer Utility, Photoshop CS, or an aftermarket third party converter like Capture1 and BreezeBrowser. Without the processing step, the raw files are useless.
For same reason, you won't be able to go to your local 1 hour photo, they just don't do that.

Your camera can be set to save a Jpeg embedded into a Raw file. I find this to be useful for easy viewing of the raw files without having to process every single one, or deal with a small thumb in XP. This could actually be a good solution for you, you get to save raw files for later when you're up to speed on this stuff, and in the meantime, you can play around with the Jpeg all you want, print it, etc. You will need to "uncork" the jpegs using the Canon FVU.

Good luck with all this
Cheers
Ilya

[GenEOS]

If you atleast learn how to dump the embedded jpegs from the RAW files, you will be preserving the master, while taking the dumped jpegs to the drugstore for printing. You can easily do this with the browser that came with the camera or one like breeze browser. A lot of times I submit these embedded jpegs to the paper for speed. They are high quality, but not the best you can get out of the RAW. For printing 4x6 proofs, it will do just fine, while you learn RAW. Once you learn RAW conversion, you can go back to the pics you took and saved the RAW files and get an even better print than the embedded jpeg.

There is an argument, that for most people, the high resolution jpeg is all you need. It will make a fine 8x10.

Have fun....That's the most important thing.

[Whaler]

Ditto. . . . . . Go JPEG and have a fun with your new Drebel. Shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.

[G3]

OK...you've gotten a lot of good advice so far. Here's my $.02:

The camera came with a bunch of software. Install it on your computer. You will need it. One of the packages is called ZoomBrowser EX. It will allow you to load and convert RAW files from your camera or memory card. Another one is called Adobe Photoshop Elements 2.0. This one is a basic (but still very powerful) version of Photoshop. It is the program you will use to do most of the manipulation of your photos, such as color correction, sharpening, cropping, etc. Learn to be friends with it. Maybe later, at some point, you will want to upgrade from Elements to the full version of Photoshop CS. Then you can do all of your RAW processing and post-processing of the resultant Jpeg or TIFF files within the same program. It is not necessary, and it is expensive, but it is much easier and the full version of Photoshop has a lot of features that just aren't available in the slimmed-down Elements version.

Every photo, whether digital or film, needs some sort of correction. With film, it is done either in the darkroom manually or automatically with a one-hour machine. With digital, it is done on a computer with a program such as Photoshop. With film, you weren't necessarily aware that it was going on...you just dropped your film off and got your prints back. But, believe me, it was done. Shooting digital, you will become much more aware of it because you will end up doing it.

Whether you use the built in Monitor calibration software (Gamma) or you buy a calibration device, make sure you calibrate your monitor. Believe me, it will save you tremendous heartburn. Go look at this tutorial: .http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/monitor_profiling.shtml

Get some books and read them. Some good ones are Scott Kelby's Elements 2.0 for Digital Photographers, and Elements 2.0 for Dummies. Go look at these tutorials:http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/instant_photoshop.shtml

http://luminous-landscape.com/techniques/process.shtml

and:

http://luminous-landscape.com/techniques/process.shtml


Go take a bunch of pictures and experiment. You aren't going to hurt anything, and you can always erase them. You have a learning curve ahead of you, but at least you have a basic understanding of using an SLR which puts you leaps and bounds ahead of some folks I've seen.

Go and have fun with it and learn while you're having fun. Take it a step at the time and it won't overwhelm you.

Good luck.

[Johnnynf]

Thanks to all who have responded so far...but as promised, I have some follow-up questions. I went this morning and took a few pictures (2 in RAW and 2 in JPEG). I have then spent most of this afternoon trying to go through some of the tutorials trying to figure out what to do from there. I have come across a few questions. First of all (I know this is basic), which program should I be using? The camera came with both Photoshop Elements and the "EOS Digital Solution Disk". It seems as though both can do very similar things (i.e. process RAW images)...so which one is better to use? I just don't want to spend a lot of time learning how to use one of the programs only to find out that the other is better or more useful. Also, after reading some of the responses to my original posting, I am a little confused about the uses of the RAW format. I understand that the image quality is better, and that it allows for more control, but how do you turn this image into a print. Someone in an earlier post said that RAW images cannot be taken to the "drugstore" and have prints made. So, if prints cannot be made, what is the point of shooting in RAW? Just to look at on the computer? Can you only print RAW using a home printer?

Thanks again for all of your help.

[CyberDyneSystems]

With Elements,. you can open and work with a jpeg file directly.

To use your RAW files you need to use the Canon File Veiwer utility that is on the "other" CD. It will allow you to work with your RAW files,. convert then to Tiff,. and to extract the jpegs that are imbedded within them.

:)

It may be a good idea to keep using raw,. and in the meantime "extract" the jpegs from the raw image using the Canon file viewer... thus if you shoot any once in a lifetime images,. you will have the RAW negative to serve in the future once you do get the "swing of things"

[ilya]

Thanks to all who have responded so far...but as promised, I have some follow-up questions. I went this morning and took a few pictures (2 in RAW and 2 in JPEG). I have then spent most of this afternoon trying to go through some of the tutorials trying to figure out what to do from there. I have come across a few questions. First of all (I know this is basic), which program should I be using? The camera came with both Photoshop Elements and the "EOS Digital Solution Disk". It seems as though both can do very similar things (i.e. process RAW images)...so which one is better to use? I just don't want to spend a lot of time learning how to use one of the programs only to find out that the other is better or more useful.

We sometimes speak in shorthand here. So to be precise, Elements cannot process Raw files. Install all software on the Digital Solutions Disk. Read instructions; its too much to go thru here, but you would use the software on that disk to download images from your camera to your hard drive. Alternatively, you can simply use your operating system's browser to copy files from the memory card to your hard drive. Note - if you don't already have one, get a memory card reader, preferably USB 2.0 if your computer can take advantage of it. After you download files, use the File Viewer Utility (which can also be accessed via the Zoom Browser program) to process your Raw files into JPEG files.

Also, after reading some of the responses to my original posting, I am a little confused about the uses of the RAW format. I understand that the image quality is better, and that it allows for more control, but how do you turn this image into a print. Someone in an earlier post said that RAW images cannot be taken to the "drugstore" and have prints made. So, if prints cannot be made, what is the point of shooting in RAW? Just to look at on the computer? Can you only print RAW using a home printer?

Only AFTER you process the Raw file into a Jpeg image, can you do things like print, as well as browse freely using your operating system's browser. Note you can also view images using Canon's Zoom Browser, in both the Raw and Jpeg formats. Very important - you would use Elements to "post-process" the Jpeg images (again, Elements doesn't do Raw). You need lots of "play time" with Elements to get the hang of it. But you absolutely must do that in order to enhance your images, as its very likely you will wonder why your friends' point and shoot cameras take better pictures out of the camera - you can think of it as they have insta-processing in their auto-cams, versus you having the freedom to do that yourself.

To recap, you must process raw into jpegs using canon's software in order to print them or post process them in Elements. You can't print raw images direct from camera, nor can you take them to a photo kiosk in raw. You must get the basics of Elements in order to enhance your photo, and get the most out of your digital experience. All this will consume a lot of time at first, and you will be frustrated. Do not let it get to you. Its complicated, but well worth it in the end.

[Johnnynf]

Thanks again guys...you have been a big help. I spent about an hour tonight combing through the instruction manuals, and I think I understand a little better now. Just one more question (for now anyway)...like I asked earlier, what is the purpose of shooting in RAW? According to ilya above, in order to make any type of print, you MUST transfer the RAW into JPEG. I can accept that...but if it has to be JPEG in the end anyway, then why not just shoot everything in JPEG to start with and save the disk space? Is the JPEG that is imbedded within the RAW a higher quality than the image received from shooting in JPEG to start with? I mean, I really want the best image that I can get, but if RAW won't allow me to make a print, it is virtually useless to me right now.

I just got married last summer and the photographer was using a Fuji digital SLR (don't know the model). Prints were excellent...I couldn't tell they were digital at all...what mode was he likely shooting in RAW or JPEG? I want all my pictures to look like that!

[Belmondo]

Actually, you don't need JPEG to print from. You can convert RAW to TIFF, and print from that. TIFF is a lossless methoc of saving files, and is probably what most of us work in after we've converted our pictures from RAW. The main problem with TIFF is that the files tend to be VERY large.

The main advantage to JPEG is file size. Your camera can write JPEG files to memory faster than RAW, and you can store approximately twice as many on a CF card.

[Whaler]

Simply put, When dealing with a RAW file you can perform some very esoteric changes in Photoshop and no degredation occurs. JPEGs will go through some degredation when you open, work on, and close the file. Guys help me out here.

[Tom W]

Thanks again guys...you have been a big help. I spent about an hour tonight combing through the instruction manuals, and I think I understand a little better now. Just one more question (for now anyway)...like I asked earlier, what is the purpose of shooting in RAW?
((snip))

Well, I'm just getting into RAW myself, but I've found one very valuable capability. You know all those white balance settings and sharpness and contrast settings and exposure compensation that are on the camera? Well, when you shoot RAW, you get a second opportunity to adjust those things before you even convert to a format that Photoshop can work with. In other words, you get to do what the camera does with the benefit of looking at the picture on your monitor, and without the detrimental effect of saving in a format that lessens the image with each save.

I took some pictures today - none were really very good, but they were reasonable pictures. They were outdoors, the sun was low in the sky, and I was shooting at a bad angle such that my subject was underexposed against the bright sky. Since I shot in RAW, I had the ability to adjust exposure compensation before I even converted to JPEG.

Yesterday, I took a few macro pictures of another camera. I put a couple of cheap halogen lights on the subject and got in tight and close and shot away. Problem is, even with auto white balance, they all had a little yellow color to them. What I did was I went to Philips' lighting web page and looked up the bulbs I was using. The color temperature of the bulbs was 2900 K. Going into the RAW images, I made the manual input of 2900 K as a custom color balance and the color rendition came out perfect. Then, I converted to JPEG.

Its useful to shoot in RAW. I'm not saying that these corrections can't be made in JPEG mode, but they probably won't exactly match the RAW adjustments. Plus, each time you change and save a JPEG, it loses fidelity. 3 or 4 saves and you'll have a pretty jagged, ugly picture.

A RAW image is pretty-much a pure image. You can almost think of it as a digital negative.

[ilya]

This isn't a Jpeg vs Raw discussion, and Johnny in his stage of development probably won't appreciate this controversy, but I cannot restrain myself - there is absolutely nothing wrong with Jpegs. I shoot Jpegs most of the time. My best shots are from Jpegs. In order to get that "keeper" shot, most of the time you nail it up front. The exposure, the WB, the everything. Notice how your best shots require minimal intervention, say a little sharpening and levels? Raw gives you a wider safety net, and an easier way of dealing with a series of shots suffering from the same illness. That's all. For Johnny, who is stumbling his way through the switches, Raw is overkill. Period, end of story. Johnny, I forbid you to use Raw for two months. Ok, at the minimum, you should learn to use the Jpeg embedded in Raw. But save the raw files, and use only the embedded jpegs for two months. Then, check back with this forum and we'll give you a skills test and a license to Raw - if you pass.

:roll: 8) :shock:

[Whaler]

Johnny,

Iilya has just given you the best advise. Follow it.

[Johnnynf]

I conducted a little experiment tonight. Yesterday I shot two identical images...one in RAW and one in large/fine JPEG. When I took both from the camera, I immediately saved (without looking at it at all) the JPEG onto my computer to serve as the "control" photo. Then I began my first ever experience into the wonderful world of RAW processing. I experimented with exposure settings, brightness and contrast, color, etc., and gave it my best go. Once again, remember that I still had not looked at the JPEG. I then printed both out, and I was very surprised by the results. I actually thought that the original JPEG looked better. I assume that most of this came from the fact that I was on my first go around with processing RAW, but nonetheless, I liked the JPEG better. So this leads me to a new question. What is the image quality of the JPEG imbedded within the RAW file like? On the surface, this embedded file seems like it will give you the best of both worlds...you can have the JPEG's to quickly transfer and print...and if you find any pictures that you are not happy with, you still have the RAW file to "play with". However, I thought I remember reading somewhere in the volumes of material I have read in the past two days that this imbedded JPEG is not high quality...I think it said it was only Medium/Fine...not Large/Fine. If this imbedded JPEG is really of lower quality, then it seems as though my "best of both worlds" solution is really no solution at all.

[Andy_T]

One more piece of advice: take a look at BreezeBrowser!

It's a shareware file viewing utility that allows you to view the raw images as well as offering some latitude in the conversion process.

Here is one example from their website how using RAW instead of JPEG can help you:

With BreezeBrowser, you can correct this

http://www.breezesys.com/BreezeBrowser/help/standrews_uncorrected.jpg

to look like this

http://www.breezesys.com/BreezeBrowser/help/standrews_corrected.jpg

when shot in RAW!

Regards,
Andy