Ethics and standards for photographing a family wedding

[mornin'glory]

I'm on the other end, not a protographer, but the client so to speak. My situation is my sister's partner offered to take photos of my daughter's wedding as a family member. It was an informal agreement in that there was no contract. She is just starting to do photography, had never done a wedding shoot and wanted the practice. It was to benefit us both, her in gaining experience and myself in that I would have photos of the wedding at a reduced cost. In order to shoot the wedding she needed a piece of equipment (flash) so we agreed that I would pay her $300.00 so that she could purchase the flash and the photos taken would be mine, she had agreed to provide me with a disk of all photos. She has since read an article about on the copyright laws, and talked with a friend who is a professional photographer and is now refusing to provide the disk and is asking$150.00 for prints that she will put into a proof book. I'm disapointed in how this is turning out, I realize my mistake in not having a written agreement, but I thought I was dealing with family. Do I have any recourse, are there standards and ethics that most photograpers abide by? She has since posted a few of the photos on her new business website along with her friend, and I have yet to have any of the photos. Any advice would be appreciated.

Morninglory

[RockSlut]

Legally, it depends on the jurisdiction in which you live. I'd suggest talking to a lawyer about it or check out your local consumer affairs web site for the laws in your jurisdiction. It sounds like you have a verbal contract and they can be tricky at the best of times.

However, as the photographer is essentially a family member the situation is probably one that is worth trying to resolve informally.

Both you and the photographer probably should be considering whether the $ in question are worth the affect it will potentially have on family relations.

Good luck with it!

[Vegas Poboy]

I would speak with her and everyone involved in the original aggreement. You have no photos and she has a flash but she also does not have a model release, a business lic. so she really can't even use the photos for a portfolio or any other use. If she wants referrals who is she going to call with only one wedding under her belt.

She needs to understand that she is not operating a business and that if this gets anymore drawn out by law it can hurt everyone.

good luck

[IndyJeff]

Small claims court would be your only recourse to get the files I believe however, your not dealing with someone who has one ounce of morals. Since it may be a she said he said case where neither party has any proof to support their case, who knows what a judge will say.

She has a new flash, you don't have any pictures of your daughters wedding. She wins and you lost plain and simple.

Now how do you go about, I hate to say this but, getting even? Go to that website and anyone who is in any images which are displayed should contact her and send her a cease and desist letter by registered/return receipt requested letter. Explain that she is displaying images to promote a business which would constitute an advertising use of the images of this wedding and no release for the right to do this exists. If she wants to go back on the agreement and play hard ball, you get your bat out and take a few swings yourself.
Also findout who the website is hosted by and send them a register/RRR letter explaining that the images being used are done without permission and legal action may soon follow. I wonder how her "professional photographer" friend is going to feel when he tries to bring up his website only to find it has been shut down?

Another solution would be to get the proof book, order what prints you want and once you get them start spreading the word about how this deal went south on you and she is not someone you would do business with again.

I am sorry but it is people like her who give everyone in this business a bad name. Once you agree to a price, you stick to it. What would she do if you took her to court asking for her to return the flash because you bought it for her to "use" during the wedding, not to keep?

[deadpass]

I feel for ya man, there is nothing worse than someone who only knows enough to get themselves in trouble. I'd talk to that "pro" photographer friend of hers and first ask if they can do anything about it, since she obviously values their opinion more than her family. If they refuse to help, I'd probably hit them, but I'm a violent guy and I by no means suggest you do that. The second best alternative would be to hit them financially but doing what IndyJeff suggests.

But in all honesty, I'd really try to resolve this without getting people outside the family involved. It is reasons like this that I get a written agreement for everything that concerns money. I really look forward to hearing how this gets resolved.

oh and as a final recourse you could try some ninja action. find out where she keeps the files of these pictures and get them, then delete them and tell her you want to buy prints and see what she does. ofcourse this envolved a bluff that she doesn't have a backup of the files, but you could always say you changed your mind. But I would seriously consider getting them thru means that aren't exactly on the up and up.

[joeturner]

I would recommend talking to her, if not then talk to the legal side of things, it sounds like this is a sorry situation!

Sorry to hear this, hope you have some success!

[Claire]

Talk with her, spell out what the original agreement was. Tell her you don't think she's being professional & keeping to it. Hear her reasoning, then tell her that she has no model release for using the photos on her website whatsover and explain what a release is (if she doesn't know).

If her friend is a pro she should have spoken to him BEFORE agreeing anything with you. He/she should also have told her how to act professional as well as told her she's not allowed to use the photos online without your consent.

If she's being unreasonable, follow IndyJeff's advice.

[primoz]

I'm feeling sorry for you and for your sister... actually not that much for her, since it's actually her fault. I completely understand your point and to be honest, I would never even think about signing contract with my brother. I mean it's family!!! But obviously it's not the case everytime and some people really rather lose family over $150 :confused:
But family or no family when it comes to ethics... I keep my promise even if I don't have signed contract. If we agree to something it's done for me, but just because of people like your sister, her friend and especially her "pro" photographer friend are, I try not to do business without signed contracts anymore. And I don't think ethics would do much if you would go to court. But I'm not lawyer so I can't be much of help here.
But as few already suggested... try to solve this without court... it's family afterall. And if nothing else... pay those $150 (even if she got flash already) so you have at least photos from your daughter and her wedding and well... sister like that wouldn't be my sister anymore. Sorry to say that.

[Claire]

I'm feeling sorry for you and for your sister... actually not that much for her, since it's actually her fault. I completely understand your point and to be honest, I would never even think about signing contract with my brother. I mean it's family!!! But obviously it's not the case everytime and some people really rather lose family over $150 :confused:
But family or no family when it comes to ethics... I keep my promise even if I don't have signed contract. If we agree to something it's done for me, but just because of people like your sister, her friend and especially her "pro" photographer friend are, I try not to do business without signed contracts anymore. And I don't think ethics would do much if you would go to court. But I'm not lawyer so I can't be much of help here.
But as few already suggested... try to solve this without court... it's family afterall. And if nothing else... pay those $150 (even if she got flash already) so you have at least photos from your daughter and her wedding and well... sister like that wouldn't be my sister anymore. Sorry to say that.

Eh, why so hard on the sister?? She wasn't the one taking the photos, her partner was. Actually, perhaps going through the sister may not be such a bad idea either. I would probably have asked the sister why her partner was acting like this. Perhaps the sister can get her partner to see your pov.

[ssim]

This really does stink. I have two sisters and one I would not question for a moment that she would live up to her word. The other one, I'm not so sure about. In the end, it is family and is really worth going to a lawyer, small claims court etc. Particularly before you have exhausted all efforts to remedy the situation. I guess the thing one would have to take in mnid is that whatever actions you take now can or could affect your relationship for quite awhile.

It would appear that you are now being treated like any other customer (or close to it). How many prints (dollar wise) were you planning on spending. Given that you are being treated like this, deduct the cost of the flash unit, shipping and maybe pad it a bit from the cost of the prints that you order. As a photographer then she should have been prepared to shoot the wedding and this would have included appropriate lighting (read flash).

I think that it is pretty common place for a great number of photographers display images on their sites without specific model releases from the subjects. Hell I used to. I used to shoot weddings without contracts years ago but not anymore, everything is locked up nice and legal. You might be able to use this whole experience to give her a shot of a learning experience of what can happen when you screw one your customers.

[PhotosGuy]

Besides what has already been said (Good stuff there), my thoughts: She has since read an article about on the copyright laws WAY too late to change the terms, it's been shot as a "Work-for-Hire" & paid for ($300). Tell her to read those laws, which leave her no (C)rights at all. And... My situation is my sister's partner, so your sister was acting as your "Agent", which is a whole 'nother can 'o worms legally & obligates both your sister & her partner if you threaten small claims court. You might ask if thier "Errors & Omissions" policy is up to date & see what the reaction to that question is? ;)

[jcpoulin]

I have done 3 weddings for family and friends, this was our gift to them as they had limited funds. All parties were very grateful!! I would never think to do such a thing. Many options mentioned above have valid points...however legal action not in anyone interest and expensive. Certainly request your "payment " back and get her flash back...then of course charge her a "rental" fee for the unit as well ( approximately the exact cost of the proofs!!!). Also notify her that IRS may be interested in her new business. This will make for an interesting holiday season for your family....to bad she is clueless as to the damage she has done!

[vwpilot]

First off, you arent really dealing with "family," you're dealing with not much more than a friend of your sister. That isnt family in my book "partner" or not.

Try to talk it out first, try to use your sister to reason with her, but if that has already been exhausted then you have no recourse except to go legal.

Fist off, as Jeff suggested, she has NO RIGHTS to display those images, copyright or not. They have images of your friends and family in them and, just as you dont have a contract stating you get your photos, she has no contract stating that she can use the images of those people without a model release.

I would have everyone you know in those photos send cease and desist letters immediately stating that they will follow up with legal action if she doesnt comply. I would also find out who the ISP is and send them a letter stating that there are images being displayed that do not have the proper rights to be displayed. Watch how fast the ISP shuts that site down, they do not mess with anything having to do with copyright issues at all.

In the end, unfortunately, you got played and she wins. I would use your connection with your sister to really put pressure on her partner to do the right thing. Its about the only thing you can really do at this point.

And to answer your question, YES, most photographers do have a code of ethics we work by and would stand by our agreements, written or verbal, but unfortunately, not everyone in this world, photographers included, will live by those same ethics.

[Claire]

First off, you arent really dealing with "family," you're dealing with not much more than a friend of your sister. That isnt family in my book "partner" or not.
In the end, unfortunately, you got played and she wins. I would use your connection with your sister to really put pressure on her partner to do the right thing. Its about the only thing you can really do at this point.


I don't want to get into politics or anything, but if with "partner" you mean what I think you mean, then every family count their relatives' boyfriend/girlfriend in different ways. Some count them as family right away, others don't until they're living together or married, and others don't ever count them as family. Depending on the poster's definition of "family", it may be tough for him to be tough with this girl as she, after all, is his sister's partner.

I think definitely try to speak to her first, then go via the sister. If neither work, then decide if you want to fall out with her because of this, and decide how it may affect your relationship to your sister etc. If she absolutely refuses to give you the photos, then pay the money (if risk is you may fall out with your sister), but make sure you're not happy with it all and be honest when telling others about her, in short - don't recommend her.

[MegaTron]

Small claims court would be your only recourse to get the files I believe however, your not dealing with someone who has one ounce of morals. Since it may be a she said he said case where neither party has any proof to support their case, who knows what a judge will say.

She has a new flash, you don't have any pictures of your daughters wedding. She wins and you lost plain and simple.

Now how do you go about, I hate to say this but, getting even? Go to that website and anyone who is in any images which are displayed should contact her and send her a cease and desist letter by registered/return receipt requested letter. Explain that she is displaying images to promote a business which would constitute an advertising use of the images of this wedding and no release for the right to do this exists. If she wants to go back on the agreement and play hard ball, you get your bat out and take a few swings yourself.
Also findout who the website is hosted by and send them a register/RRR letter explaining that the images being used are done without permission and legal action may soon follow. I wonder how her "professional photographer" friend is going to feel when he tries to bring up his website only to find it has been shut down?

Another solution would be to get the proof book, order what prints you want and once you get them start spreading the word about how this deal went south on you and she is not someone you would do business with again.

I am sorry but it is people like her who give everyone in this business a bad name. Once you agree to a price, you stick to it. What would she do if you took her to court asking for her to return the flash because you bought it for her to "use" during the wedding, not to keep?

I agree with everything here.

Right now, she has a $300 flash, and you have nothing but a headache, and no pictures.

[SuzyView]

Just because I shoot for free and when people want to pay me for work done, that's great. But I don't even come close to paying for the equipment or the time.

My take on this, don't take this personally. Some people are like this, always wanting something without truly wanting to do a service. If this had happened to me after a verbal agreement, I would have said one of two things: 1. "Enjoy the flash." Then I would have asked friends to shoot for free. Put disposable cameras around and go nuts. It would cost around $100 for all those pictures and you're out $400. 2 "Since I paid $300 for the flash, can you at least give me back the flash and I can find another person to do the job. You said yourself, you're not a pro, but you want to be treated like one. I think this is fair."

[DocFrankenstein]

IMO she's in the wrong.

I wouldn't want her to shoot the wedding anymore if she behaved like that. What's she going to do later? Offer prints to you at 50 bucks each?

[SuzyView]

IMO she's in the wrong.

I wouldn't want her to shoot the wedding anymore if she behaved like that. What's she going to do later? Offer prints to you at 50 bucks each?

I agree with you, Doc. I think it's the right thing to do just to say, okay, we'll find another way. But that's so harsh. Don't you just want to give them copies of some of the good wedding pictures here and say, "If you can give me this, then I'll pay you!";)

[Statement]

Wow, sounds like she's being a total jerk about it, to be honest. She basically used bait and switch, and but the law doesn't really work that way for a unliscenced amateur. I'm sorry you are having to go through this.

[LBaldwin]

Actually, I have a somewhat different take. First she is not family. Period. She may be your sisters partner but family, good family does not do this to each other. I just flew all the way to Florida from CA to shoot my brothers wedding. And even though it was a PIA I would do it again in an instant.

Start small claims proceedings against both the photographer and the pro she talked to.
Make it very clear in no uncertain terms that you are not to be *Ahemed* with.

Most folks when the get served with paperwork toss in their cards. Use that 'Pro" to your tactical advantage. His name is now part of the suit as legal advisor for the defendant. See if he really want to be a part of the court case.

When you sue, go for the actual damages, and court costs. I am pretty confident that they will settle out of court, quickly. No matter what if she decides to stick by her guns make sure that you have printed copies of the webpages to show the judge, used by her for advertising, but never given to the actual client. That will weigh against her heavily.

Remember don't have any further conversation with her from this point forward. No threats to sue or cajoling etc. The judges are there because someone decided to renig on an agreement verbal or otherwise.

Les

[LoganWade]

How unfortunate. If you have tried speaking with the partner to no avail i would definately at the very minimum get the pictures removed from the website. And as far as if shes considered "family" if the issue doesnt get resolved fairly and the same situation happen to me the partner would definatly not be "family" IMO anymore. After all the wedding is over its too late for pictures. I would have a hard time spending any time around them thereafter. Whats it gonna be like at family get togethers now? What a shame. Hope everything works out for the best.

[radloser]

I'm from Ohio and somewhat familiar with tort law. I can easily see a judge saying this. She received $300 for a flash and wants $150 for prints. The judge may give her $150 for prints and you the $300 for the flash. it's not your responsibility to buy her the equipment. you get the disk adn $150 back. contact a lawyer if she won't be reasonable

[Mike Reynolds]

very simple... take her to small claims court and let the judge decide. and be done with it.

[ssim]

I'm always surprised at so many's reaction to tell them to go to a lawyer. I don't know about the US but in Canada it cost a few hundred dollars to walk through the door of a lawyer's office (at least a reputable one). This is such a small thing I doubt that they would take it on a percentage.

It's not that they do not have access to their pictures, just not in the original fashioned agreement.

I still think that small claims may be the way to go. However, it is going to be a case of he said, she said, and who is the judge to believe when all they have to go on is a verbal agreement (as binding as it may be) and one of the parties is obviously not telling the truth.

[DocFrankenstein]

Go to judge Judy and let us all see.

[cgratti]

Dont go to the lawyer yet, dont even mention it because it will make her dig her heels in more. Just talk with her "as adults" and explain that you had an agreement. Explain to her she was doing you a favor and in turn you paid her "with a $300 flash". You both won on this deal, she was going to the wedding anyway "I assume", and she got experience and a decent flash out of the deal. If the pictures are decent (you never mentioned if they were) tell her you'll help spread the word and give her business.

[mornin'glory]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and advice. My husband is not in favor of going to small claims, even though I think I have a good case, he dosen't what this to create bad will and hard feelings in the family. So far I haven't told any other family members what's going on, I just keep smiling and saying the photos aren't available yet. Because folks would definately be taking sides. So I've decided to send her a cease & desist letter as adviced to get the photos off her website, but only after I get the proof book (for $150)as I'm worried that I may not get anything from her. It's a lessoned learned, a hard lesson at that. If I can't talk her into honoring the agreement of giving me a disk (with at least the proofs) Can I, once I get the proof book scan the photos and just make some personal copies for myself, daughter and her in-laws? Hopefully they are good photos, I don't even know that for sure, except the 3 that are on her website.

[Vegas Poboy]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and advice. My husband is not in favor of going to small claims, even though I think I have a good case, he dosen't what this to create bad will and hard feelings in the family. So far I haven't told any other family members what's going on, I just keep smiling and saying the photos aren't available yet. Because folks would definately be taking sides. So I've decided to send her a cease & desist letter as adviced to get the photos off her website, but only after I get the proof book (for $150)as I'm worried that I may not get anything from her. It's a lessoned learned, a hard lesson at that. If I can't talk her into honoring the agreement of giving me a disk (with at least the proofs) Can I, once I get the proof book scan the photos and just make some personal copies for myself, daughter and her in-laws? Hopefully they are good photos, I don't even know that for sure, except the 3 that are on her website.

Let her know even though she owns the copyright, she still needs a written consent model release from you to use the images for any type of promotion.

[vwpilot]

Hell, I'd tell all the family what is going on. Maybe if she gets a rash of crap from the rest of the family, her and the sister will start to see what she has done to the family and maybe see the light.

[PhotosGuy]

Hell, I'd tell all the family what is going on. Me, too, but I tend to be known as "Oh, That cousin!" ;)

[SuzyView]

Spoke to my lawyer husband yesterday. He said no judge would take the other side. It was a verbal agreement with actual item for the trade made on your part. Either take the flash back or the girlfriend has to shoot for free. I'd take the flash back or make her pay for it. But if you were really trying to make nice, work it out. I don't know if I'd be very comfortable with this situation as is.

[Julio]

The flash is now used--can you use it yourself? If not, and you sell it, you won't get $300 for it. Ask her for either the money or the prints that were promised. And tell the family! Maybe it will be the pressure she needs to make things right. Get her to take the pix off her site by doing as others suggested--contacting EVERYONE in the pix and letting them know what's going on and having them tell her to take them down as well. Make sure you have backed up her site first, though. Also contact the ISP.

If need be, take it to small claims court--it's relatively cheap. And start writing down all events that have transpired or will transpire until this is resolved. Write down times, what happened, and what was the outcome. Keep any voice messages (mails), emails, or letters, etc.

I am NOT a lwayer and am NOT offering legal advice, just letting you know what I'd do.

[gcobb]

Besides what has already been said (Good stuff there), my thoughts: WAY too late to change the terms, it's been shot as a "Work-for-Hire" & paid for ($300). Tell her to read those laws, which leave her no (C)rights at all. And... My situation is my sister's partner, so your sister was acting as your "Agent", which is a whole 'nother can 'o worms legally & obligates both your sister & her partner if you threaten small claims court. You might ask if thier "Errors & Omissions" policy is up to date & see what the reaction to that question is? ;)

I probably should have read this whole thread but this is right. Although there was nothing on paper, there is still a verbal agreement and it'll hold up. There is also in economics something we call consideration where you gave her something up front in consideration of having your prints.

Kick her ass or have an attorney phone her. Well...maybe just the attorney part.