Define "Pro"...

[GCRollo]

I hear the word thrown around... But what defines this status?

Is there an industry standard definition? Do you have to make your living solely from photography or is it bestowed upon you the moment you sell any good that came as a result of you pulling the trigger, to be titled a "pro"? What if you're an "artist", can you still be considered a "pro"? Or, is it at the point you master your equipment, techniques, and technical manuals? Or, could it possibly be a result of time... Like, after 5 years of taking photo's you're now a "pro"?

It sounds like I'm being facetious, but I'm not. It seems to me it is a very loose term. I mean you don't have to have a degree in it. You don't have to take an exam or get licensing.. so what makes one person a "pro" and the other an "Enthusiast"?

[Croasdail]

It isn't a simple answer, and I feel you need to add the catagory of "semi-pro" in there as well. There are a whole lot of contributing factors out there that make someone a pro. At the most basic level, it is one who actually has a going business... licenses, insurance, a business plan, etc. But let me try this one on for you and see if this helps because I have been struggling with how "pro" I want to be. One of the ways you can tell your becoming a pro is that you are creating work whose sole purpose is to satisfy a customer's need. Not to say it isn't something you enjoy, but rather, the standards at which you make product, how you approach the subject, how you work and deliver your product - if they are driven by customer demand, then you are likely a pro. On the other hand, if you just like to shoot, and you have some talent, and people occasionally pay you for your work, then I view you as a semi-pro, or better yet, a compensated hobbiest/artist/amateur. Nothing wrong with it at all. It's a good place to be in. But being a pro means sometimes you put your own personal tastes aside, and instead work to deliver in your own style work that meets specifically what a customer needs/wants. You approach the work from a different perspective. At least that is my take on it at this time.... it has been an evolving thing.

[GCRollo]

It isn't a simple answer...

I know, and this is the reason I pose it... that among others.

But being a pro means sometimes you put your own personal tastes aside

This statement disturbed me (Not w/ you, but the statement itself)

So, I'm going to open another can of worms here... If you are indeed a "pro" you are not an artist. You may very well be photographing in an "artistic manner", but it's not art.

(As you can probably tell, I'm getting a little biased here, and slightly off topic. I'll save it for another thread or "Art vs. Work")

Ok, in my line of work (Architect), I am a profesional... I hold a B. Arch (Soon to be M. Arch) from an accredited program, I put many hours in the IDP before even being eligible to sit for the registration exam, I sat thru 6 months of the 9 part ARE (Architectural Registration Exam) and hold a license to practice Architecture. So here the issue is cut and dry, and I have the documentation to prove it...

I guess I just have a problem w/ people claiming to be a "Pro" at this, or worse yet, looking down on those they deem "Amateur", or "Enthusiast" Or "Hobbiest", "Weekend Warrior", "Yahoo"... (I pick this "attitude" up most among the wedding photographers, which again, is not art) These are all of course just labels (many times of which we put on ourselves, not by others)...

eg. I don't feel confident in Photography, therefore, I'm an amateur, or
I've been paid to shoot "x" amount of weddings so now I consider myself a pro.

So, I digress... Please define "pro"... Are you a "pro"? Prove it.

licenses, insurance, a business plan

Ok... but again.. any Joe Smoe can get those things. I don't have to prove I'm a "pro" to attain them.

I'm not trying to degrade anybody here, or get under their skin... I just want to try to get to the bottom of it. I guess I'm getting sick of people throwing it around as if it actually means something.

[vwpilot]

I think it basically comes down to "do you do photography for a living?" If so, you're a pro. If not, its your hobby that you may or may not get paid to do at times.

What makes a sports player a pro? Its when he is being paid to play sports and he makes his living at it.

At a more basic rate, what is the definition of a profession? The most basic is "a paid occupation." Its added usually that it has prolonged training and formal qualification, though that is not required.

Someone like a doctor or lawyer definately qualify, but if you look at the more simplistic definition, anything you choose for our living is a profession. So therefore to be a "pro," you should be doing it as your chosen profession, or for your living.

Someone that has a regular job that does paid photography on the side is more of a semi-pro, meaning that its not their SOLE profession.

[GCRollo]

I think it basically comes down to "do you do photography for a living?" If so, you're a pro. If not, its your hobby that you may or may not get paid to do at times.

What makes a sports player a pro? Its when he is being paid to play sports and he makes his living at it.

At a more basic rate, what is the definition of a profession? The most basic is "a paid occupation." Its added usually that it has prolonged training and formal qualification, though that is not required.

Someone like a doctor or lawyer definately qualify, but if you look at the more simplistic definition, anything you choose for our living is a profession. So therefore to be a "pro," you should be doing it as your chosen profession, or for your living.

Someone that has a regular job that does paid photography on the side is more of a semi-pro, meaning that its not their SOLE profession.

Sounds very logical to me... I'll buy it.

Then by this definition, it doesn't mean you are more adept at photography, it just means you make a living from it. It's your profession.

Which is the point I was getting at.. thanks.

People. Quit looking at this label as meaning you are something "more" then you currently think you are. It has nothing to do with your artistic vision or skill w/ a camera. It's not some holy grail, Where one day you were "Amateur-Boy", and the Next day you became, "Pro-Man".. Where all the secrets of the photo-graphical universe are suddenly bestowed upon you in a beam of light from above. It's a label, nothing more, nothing less. Don't define yourself by a label.

[liza]

I'm with Mark on this one. There's no simple answer to that question. I have a 9 to 5 for benefits and retirement but 95% of what I shoot (and I shoot hundreds upon hundreds of frames per month) is for pay. At this point, I'm making almost as much with the shooting as I am with the other full time job. And photography pays a good part of the bills for my family. I conduct myself "professionally," use "professional" equipment, put forth a "professional" product, and pay taxes on my income. Yet some people would consider me a weekend warrior, although I spend nearly as many hours with the photography business as I do as an educator. And I suppose they're entitled to their opinion.

There's really no black and white anwer to your question.

[PhotosGuy]

Another category: ExPro. ;)
Pro: Find the job. Deliver the job on time AND make the client happy by giving him what he wants AND giving him what he needs, even if he didn't think to ask for that. Get paid enough to live on year after year, and never have to say, "Do you want fries with that."

[JaertX]

If you are indeed a "pro" you are not an artist. You may very well be photographing in an "artistic manner"

here's another nominee for the ignorant statement of the year award.

Come on now, you really don't take yourself that serious, that YOU get to make those sort of calls?

While all "pro" photographers do not have any interest in photography as art and see it as business only, almost all do. The one thing that separates a starving artist and one who can sell his ART work and make a living at it is ambition.

I don't know if you've actually been working in architecture yet, but you're going to find the same thing in your career. There are some very bitter old men who spend their lives desiging cube farms in the architecture field. Others are gutsy and ambitious and fly with their talent and create some amazing artwork...they can sell their vision.

Anyway, this has question has been asked a lot and there's really no good answer to it. Even on "professional" forums, you won't find a clear answer. Bummer. :D

[GCRollo]

There's really no black and white anwer to your question.

Thanks Liza... and they're best questions in life to pose.

You're a "professional" in my book. ;)

[cdifoto]

I'm a professional because I say so. It sounds better when promoting oneself than "Guy with expensive camera."

[joegolf68]

[quote=GCRollo;2292207]
So, I'm going to open another can of worms here... If you are indeed a "pro" you are not an artist. You may very well be photographing in an "artistic manner", but it's not art.

/quote]


Huh?

You need to look at income tax returns to tell if it is a pro or an artist? Come on. Look at all the pros in Hollywood films who do artistic work and get paid a fortune to do it. So many artists would think differently than you, including some of the all time greats. :rolleyes: Sorry, but that statement just jumped out at me a ludicrous on so many different levels. I apologize if this sounds like a personal attack, it is not, it is an attack on the statement only. I would think you meant it differently than I interpreted. Peace.

[JaertX]

Yeah, I reread my post. Please know that I think the statement is ignorant and ill-informed. I'm sure you're an upstanding fellow who's getting at something profound here in the next few posts! :)

[cdifoto]

I'm sure you're an upstanding fellow who's getting at something profound here in the next few posts! :)

One would hope so...:)

[GCRollo]

here's another nominee for the ignorant statement of the year award.

Really? Will there be a ceremony and everything.
Come on, you're from Texas, you're ignorant by default. :lol:

Come on now, you really don't take yourself that serious, that YOU get to make those sort of calls?

No, not really... Just trying to illicit a response. But there is a lot of Truth that when you make "art", your job, you often sacrifice the art.

Art is whatever, you, as the viewer define it.

Come on now, don't take this thread too seriously... ;)

I don't know if you've actually been working in architecture yet, but you're going to find the same thing in your career.

Yep, about 8 years now... I don't always get to make "art".. I have to pay the bills just like the next guy, but I do get the chance enough to still have passion for my job everyday.

But, I express myself artistically in other mediums, such as photography, as well.

For me, Photography is "untainted" because it's only for me. Yeah, I've shot a wedding, sold a few pieces for others walls, but I have no desire to became a "pro".

But the point of question, was that the term doesn't make you a "better" photographer... it's just a label.

No harm I hope.;)

[GCRollo]

I'm a professional because I say so. It sounds better when promoting oneself than "Guy with expensive camera."

I can buy that one too.;)

[GCRollo]

OK.. the "profound" reason for this thread.

I was shooting this weekend, and another photographer, decked out in all the top gear, vest, ect... Asked me who I was shooting for, to which I replied, "Me."... She suddenly got real "snooty" toward me.

I just didn't get it, or why. Apparently she was a "pro" shooting for something, and I was just a low life "Hobbiest"...

It irked me... But I still got great shots. I would have loved to see hers.;)

The other part of my "profoundness" is how many people on these forums strive to be something that can't even truly be defined. That's it's some type of goal to be obtained. Just go shoot. Do it for yourself, do it for money.. who cares. But don't do it so you can claim you're a "pro" as opposed the "Hobbyist" (or whatever) you are now.

[cdifoto]

OK.. the "profound" reason for this thread.

I was shooting this weekend, and another photographer, decked out in all the top gear, vest, ect... Asked me who i was shooting for, to which I replied, "Me."... She suddenly got real "snooty" toward me.

I just didn't get it, or why. Apparently she was a "pro" shooting for something, and I was just a low life "Hobbiest"...

It irked me... But I still got great shot. I would have loved to see hers.;)


That's funny. I would think being in Joyzee you'd be used to snooty, rather than offended by it.

Oh and I'm too snooty to talk to other photographers in the first place, unless they have some really cool gear that I don't have, and look friendly enough to let me play with it. :lol:

[motocrossnut34]

I have a friend that is a Pro photographer. He got the cover shot for Racerx magazine and it was a national photography contest. He shoots many riders that make front covers and interviews in other magazines. He does not however do photography for a living, he is a IT guy for a big company....

[JaertX]

But there is a lot of Truth that when you make "art", you job, you often sacrifice the art.


I'm sure for a lot of people that is true. Sad to me, at least when you work in a creative type field.

I have the luxury of not depending on my photography income to feed my family, so if there is a job I don't want to take I can recommend another photographer. I've taken jobs for experience, but as I learn, I will become less and less accomodating to a clients request. That is a major part of where I want to take my photography. I know several photographers who use that as their business philosophy and they are very busy and very well paid.

Of course, that's one of the things I use to determine what makes a pro, a pro. A pro doesn't ask a client what they want. They tell them what they can do and offer a product. Not all pros are like that, but I don't want to be like all pros!

Anyway, I'd rather be labeled "expensive" than "professional", but I'm still working on that!

[JaertX]

I was shooting this weekend, and another photographer, decked out in all the top gear, vest, ect... Asked me who i was shooting for, to which I replied, "Me."... She suddenly got real "snooty" toward me.

she was jealous!

[GCRollo]

That's funny. I would think being in Joyzee you'd be used to snooty, rather than offended by it....

I'm from SOUTH Jersey, not much around me but farm fields (And snooty farmers) ... It is called the Garden State after all. It's not for all those mobsters planted in North Jersey. ;)

[cdifoto]

I'm from SOUTH Jersey, not much around me but farm fields (And snooty farmers) ... It is called the Garden State after all. It's not for all those mobsters planted in North Jersey. ;)

Well you do know why those gardens were planted in the first place, don't you? ;) :)

[GCRollo]

she was jealous!

Hmmm.. Never thought of that.... Maybe.:-?

[joegolf68]

Ok, for sure, when someone said don't take this thread too seriously, I certainly appreciate the advice. ;)

I will never be a pro, but I have a better chance at that than being an artist, as I have no talent there. I'm a hobbyist, rookie, lousy photographer for now. I can say one thing though, it certainly seems to me that the best here are artists, in the true sense, and makes no difference if they are being paid for their art or not. I am envious, as I might someday be a good photographer, in the sense of knowing the mechanics, but I will never be an artist, that is something I think that is in the DNA. Damn, I am getting depressed. But for equipment, I can afford to go heads up with almost anyone in WHAT I can buy, if I so choose. But as is pointed out here, true but unfortunately, equipment doesn't make the photographer. I certainly do enjoy taking pictures and looking at others here and reading their words of wisdom. If I could buy artistic talent, I would, so you that have it, enjoy and know you are special.

[GCRollo]

Well you do know why those gardens were planted in the first place, don't you? ;) :)

Probably to cover over the Toxic-Waste dumps... :lol:

It's good for the skin though! :p

[LBaldwin]

Great thread. Professional means that you take cash for your work. Period. There are several photography related orgs that claim to make you more professional. PPofA, NPPA, ASMP etc. You may or may not agree with what they teach.

The reason you need a license and we don;t is because we don't design anything that could fall down and squish somebody. Uncle Sam wants to know if you actually cracked the books. Bridges, buildings fall all the time. But it takes a real pro to come and shoot it <grin>.

And you are right sometimes we are not creating art, it does take skill to shoot a software box, but it is not really "art".

But the field of photography can be just as technical as anything you create on paper or with your computer, just ask an eye surgeon. Forensic and technical photographers often have advanced and difficult to obtain degrees in their fields, are they not pros?

Are they pros because they went to school? I know a really cool rock photographer (igneious, shale etc) and he could not take a family portait to save his bacon.

But give him a core sample and he knows a jillion ways to light it to determine what it contains.

I don't want to fit into anyone;s cubby hole re: my work I like it all.

Signed, guy with too much stuff what makes money (sometimes)

Les Baldwin

[Photolistic]

Pro is when you have a Canon 30D (or better) and one or more L lenses. :lol:

[Jon, The Elder]

Dear Mr. Rollo - Having worked as a paid professional in still/movie/videography for many of the last 40 years, do I qualify as a "pro"? Symantics are involved now that I am "semi-retired". Do I get "Grandfathered" in (no pun intended). Or, does this only apply when I am working a horse show or other event. Does the word "pro" switch on and off as the occasion calls for?
My personal definition of 'pro', is someone who presents themselves in a businesslike manner, both in appearance and equipment and directs the entire process of capturing an image. They are competent in their operations and demeanor and deliver a top quality product in a timely manner. For this they are compensated as much for experience and knowledge as they are for the final deliverables (print, CD, etc).
To earn the title, one must exhibit all these characteristics.
Strange, most of the people who approach me during events, ask the simple question "Are you the photographer"? This is not as silly as you might think, if you come from their point of view. "The photographer" implies that they already consider you to be a "Pro".
This is the Umpteenth variation of this question that I've read, and it seems many of us have a difficult time coming up with a definitive answer that satisfy's all of us.

[LBaldwin]

OK.. the "profound" reason for this thread.

I was shooting this weekend, and another photographer, decked out in all the top gear, vest, ect... Asked me who I was shooting for, to which I replied, "Me."... She suddenly got real "snooty" toward me.

I just didn't get it, or why. Apparently she was a "pro" shooting for something, and I was just a low life "Hobnd in thebiest"...

It irked me... But I still got great shots. I would have loved to see hers.;)

The other part of my "profoundness" is how many people on these forums strive to be something that can't even truly be defined. That's it's some type of goal to be obtained. Just go shoot. Do it for yourself, do it for money.. who cares. But don't do it so you can claim you're a "pro" as opposed the "Hobbyist" (or whatever) you are now.

I kinda thought that was the other shoe dropping. Don't worry this will happen again. How new was her stuff, the camera, vest etc?

Maybe she thought you were the big, well paid pro and she was 2nd in the (photo) pecking order. Photography is a very competitive business for not much income, anybody with a camera is now the person who takes good gigs and food off of your table. The truth is that "professional" as a defined position is getting even tougher to maintain. Newspapers, magazines, the internet are all like wolves, they will fight for what they want, but they really like it if they can just take it without having to work or pay for it. And amatures will give it away, killing your business. Maybe it's not you but what she thought you stand for.

You got miffed, I see that, but it's not like you lost the money to pay the rent.
Did it ever occur to you that, that is precisely what she thought?

Just some food for thought,

Les

[GCRollo]

Jon & Les, all

I wish you to know that the purpose of the question was not meant in any way to cause Insult of Injury.

And... as Les pointed out, I fully understand how people could be sensitive to anybody, potential or not, taking food off the table.

I stated above that I get this "vibe" worse of all from the wedding photographers... And I understand where is derives from.

But let us not forget, this is a free market society, and "Joe Weekend" has every right in the world to offer his services at whatever price he likes. (Whether he be "pro" or not) It's up to the pro to adapt to all market circumstances. This is true of every business. You can't expect business practices of 20 years ago to still apply today, and if you do, it's no wonder you're starving.

For certain professions, it's a little easier to stem the flow of these type issues. Like Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers, Architects, ect... Which all require State/Government regulated licensing.

But, the reason for such precautions was stated above. Life Safety.

Even my chosen profession has similar problems to face, such as Construction Documentation being out-sourced to places like India (For dirt cheap)

I get the argument.

I'm in no way putting down ANYBODY who makes a living (or not) from this. This was not my intent, As I have nothing but respect for a person who conducts themselves as Jon has stated above...

And Les, although, yes, I can see how she could have seen "me" (No me personally, but me, the hobbyist) as a threat, that does not excuse her rudeness no matter what the scenario... I like be treated as others would have you treat them.. w/ common courtesy and respect. Now being this isn't a perfect world, this is not always going to happen... I understand this as well.

But even as a "Hobbyist" I still conduct myself in a professional & courteous manner. You don't have to be a pro to conduct yourself as such.

She had a pretty nice rig. EOS 5D, L lens (Didn't catch the focal length), 580EX flash... so forth, and so on...

But these items are by no means exclusive to the pro. (Just look at the signatures of the members on these forums.. there's some serious money on here)

My personal approach to gear is, yes, I could hammer a nail w/ a rock, but a hammer would do the job much better. BUT, I have to know how to build the house in the first place. I don't buy L lenses to impress anyone or to be perceived as a "pro".. If anything, I hate the attraction they create, like when I'm doing street candids for example.


My personal definition of a "pro" is not much different then has been stated above. Somebody who make their living (or at least a large part of their income) by doing photography... No matter what that Genre may be. And this could apply to any "Profession" really...

But, the other point was, this status (or rather state) does not implicitly mean you are more "worthy" to hold a camera, or that you are more proficient with one. (Although, in many cases, this may very well be true.. it should not be assumed).

I would also like to state, that in a circumstance where a "pro" was there to get a shot, to put food on the table, I would, out of respect, move aside as a hobbiest... I have all the time in the world, they have a a job to do.

So, in the end, I hope my posing of the question was not interpreted as being in any way disrespectful to those who are "pro's"...

Just know, that MANY of us enthusiast have no desire to make a career out of this... as stated above, I wouldn't want to take something like this, that I enjoy for purely my own pleasure, and taint it w/ having to make money from it. Not much unlike my current profession which is haunted by the same demons of where to draw the line between art & business.

Respectively,
Glen

[LBaldwin]

Hey Glen,
I agree with much of your post. She was rude and that actually gives working photographers a black eye. But it is done all the time. I can't tell you the number of times I have had other "Pros" walk across my shot without so much as a by-your-leave.

BTW newbies, nothing pis*es of a working photog than an obvious newbie walking across the shot, but it with everything else goes with the territory. Wedding photogs are whole different breed. Most photo's can be reshot if need be. Weddings are a cuthroat with a contract. You live and die by your last wedding. Word of mouth in that community are 10x worse than fashion. If I have a contract, a specific contract with a B&G I will mow you over to fullfill it (one reason I hate to do them for work).

Just in that area alone I could tell you stories that would curl your toes. So if you are a newbie, make friends with the pro at a wedding but please stay out of the way. I would not come to your job and interfere with yourwork. If you are shooting as a gift, don't follow the pro and shoot what he shoots, it is annoying as hell and it is often against the contract. I used to have that problem routinely. So I had my assistant enter each and every posed shot after i made my exposures to make sure that those folks that insisted on ignoring my requirements of (contracted) singulairity got my assistant in as many shots as possible (posed group shots and B&G set shots, not candids).

BTW this was usually done to those carrying pro level gear and only after a quiet conversation to desist. I had one guy follow me for 4 hours I finally had the best man escort him from the chapel he was that pesky. A few shots or a few questions while I work, no problem. I have even helped family members with their gear during a wedding.

But follow me around and act like a freakin xerox machine? Not on my watch. I put an overabundace of planning and energy into every shoot I do and my clients depend on my capabilities, running interferance during a wedding won't be tolerated. And that sir is (more than likely) why you are getting attitude.

In both cases the working photographer felt intimidated by your presence.
I am resonably sure it was unintended but that is what happened

Yeah I understand all about what this country is about. I am a vet and a business owner. But it is really funny to have newbies come and tell me that, when realistically you don't actually have a clue what it is like to walk in my mocs. I want you to be successful in your photographic endevours, and I mean that sincerely just check my posts to those that ask for my help or help general.

But don't get your nose out of joint if I try to protect my market. If you want to shoot like a pro buy the right business licenses, get the training and start up your business. I will go after you tooth and nail creatively just as I would hope that you would do the same.

Oh OK how do you know you are a pro,

1. When you get your first paid and published work.
2. The first time grandma gives you 5 bux for your pictures of her pooch
3. First magazine cover, then 2nd 3rd etc
4. A major european magazine flys you to Cancun for a fashion shoot and pays $12000
5. When other photographers start asking you who you shoot for
6. When you hang your first images in a museum or gallery not a coffee shop
7. When someone says "Wow you must have a great/expensive/big camera.
8. When someone asks if you know how to work this thing and she hands you her 110 camera.
9. You shoot MLB for 10 seasons
10 You get a cover of SI or Playboy

Who me? I am a working photographer, that guy with the P&S, he is the pro
Les Baldwin

[GCRollo]

...

In both cases the working photographer felt intimidated by your presence.
I am resonably sure it was unintended but that is what happened



Just to clarify.. this was not a wedding or anything of the sort. I would never bring my gear to a wedding unless I was the designated photographer.

This was a public place, and I was there well before she showed up. I just so happen to be in the spot she wanted/needed to be.

Now had she, with tact, explained that she needed the "paid" shot, I would have obliged and stepped aside until she was finished... I had nothing but time.

But as it was, after her snooty looks and mumblings to her assistant About "Yahoos w/ professional rigs, ect...), I showed her what a "Newbie" really was and fuddled w/ my rig like I was clueless, until she finally gave up waiting and stormed away...

My wife was there too.. at one point I even looked at her and asked "Which button's the shutter agian?"... I could see the "pro's" eyes roll into the back of her head. ;)

As for what you describe in doing wedding photography, it is the "Hobbyist" who is acting unprofessionally and disrespectfully, and would indeed warrant the same reaction I've been eluding to.

Image in question can be found Here. (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=300477663&size=o)

In retrospect... It's by no means the end of the world. I just needed to vent. I probably could have "been the better man" and acted better myself.

I guess the main point, is don't take this, or life, soooo seriously all the time... don't forget the things that are really important. To breath. To enjoy your time behind the lens or whatever it is you do to unwind. And to at least TRY to show common courtesy toward one another in all areas of life.

[LBaldwin]

Cool, nice shot BTW. Sounds like she had it coming. I saw some of your archy stuff it's is pretty decent. I can't wait till you get to 4x5. Digi's have their place but to really foul up a shot you need LF.

My post was not "aimed" just at you. But you find just like in the rest of the world there are some real a$$halfs in pro photography. And I have been guilty of it too.

It is an ego brusing life. Everybody has a different vision. Nobodys is correct 100% of the time. But I have had in my career some real issues with newbies or wannebees. I even had a guy dump a full beer on my camera bag at Candlestick park. I was in the press area and he was in the paid for seat, right behind me. i got out of the way of a player coming into the press box and he decided he did not like how I moved (he wanted me to block the player ruining the play). This idiot decided to yell and scream, my BP was up but I kept my cool, the cops surrounded him and were about to remove him when he vented a fresh beer right into my bag. Everything of major importance was in ziplocks, but what a smell. His karma got him back though, he tripped on the way past the PD and smashed his nikon to bits. Even the video weenies were laughing.
He was really po'd then. I still have a VHS of it somewhere, they gave it to me at the end of season '93. I could not repeat most of what he said, but there is a real God.

On the other hand I was shooting a sweet 16, and the great G'ma was from the Ukriane. She basicly elbowed me away and wanted to use her very old Kiev MF camera to get a shot of the first dance, What I did not know was she did not speak a lick of english, and she had suffered at the hands of the Russians. I offered to hold her camera (and close it) and she took a cut at me. The glares I was getting were like daggers, and I felt about 1" tall.

I was trying to explaining that she needed to close the back of the camera before she exposed all the film...... It cost me a 11x14 with serious I am sorry.

As you move forward you will see some strange and funny things, take notes.

Les

[rabidcow]

OK.. the "profound" reason for this thread.

I was shooting this weekend, and another photographer, decked out in all the top gear, vest, ect... Asked me who I was shooting for, to which I replied, "Me."... She suddenly got real "snooty" toward me.

I just didn't get it, or why. Apparently she was a "pro" shooting for something, and I was just a low life "Hobbiest"...


I don't like when photographers get snooty, but it does happen. Usually because we are used to other people just being in the way. (People who are not on deadlines and who think that owning a MkII makes them a pro)

When a hobbiest is shooting for fun and is in my way when I need the shot then I will sure as hell let it be known. This is not because I think that I am better, but rather because I don't walk into that person's office during the work day and stand in front of thier computer monitor, or stand in front of them when they are giving a presentation, and so on.

It is a matter of respecting one another out there and it goes both ways.

[CanonXTuser]

I'm a professional because I say so. It sounds better when promoting oneself than "Guy with expensive camera."

Rflol .... tell a prospective client or gatekeeper that you don't consider yourself a pro and it really does not mean anything and see what they think.

It seems to me that most of the people that resent or want to diminish the value of the term are reacting out of resent of feeling disrespected by or taken aback by the arrogance or obnoxious of people who happen to be "pros."

I say "who happen to be" because there is absolutely no logical reason why being a "pro" means someone has to act that way ... they were always a jerk to begin with.

Christ sakes .... the number of arrogant attorneys, bankers, developers, musicians, etc. ... yet were all suppose to pretend that there is no value to operating at a "pro" level in those and other fields.

You don't cut off one's own nose to spite another and you are cutting off one's nose to denigrate the idea of pursuing being a "pro." Being arrogant and dismissive of others is something both "pros," "semi-pros" and "amateurs" in all fields do.

As for what is a "pro" - there's a strictly economic definition and there is also a noneconomic definition dealing with one's attitude, dedication and skill.

the economic and the qualitative definitions are pretty complementary as presumably, in an ideal world, if you are have poor attitude, dedication and skill then you won't be an "economic" pro for long. And vice versa, if you do have those things, than you are worthy to be paid and probably will attract attention of those that will pay you.

[NickSimcheck]

It's easy to define pro, go to m-w.com and type "Professional" into the little box thingy and this is what you get:

Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3 : following a line of conduct as though

[CanonXTuser]

It's easy to define pro, go to m-w.com and type "Professional" into the little box thingy and this is what you get:

Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3 : following a line of conduct as though

The definitions cover everything from the economic to the qualitative and as mentioned, the various definitions should go hand in hand, ie. if you don't exhibit the qualitative aspects than "ideally" it will affect your economics and vice versa, if you implement the qualitative, you should be worthy of being paid.

The definitions pretty much accomodate all views ... except the view that being a "pro" means nothing. The definition even addresses those who feel aggrieved at how they were treated by people claiming to be professionals - "courteous, conscientious, businesslike" and "ethical."

Sounds like they were treated unprofessionally ... not professionally. The answer is to expect courteous and respectful treatment from people [and do the same] and be willing to assert that to the offending individuals. If someone is being a jerk, it's them and not the title. I don't know of any title that necessitates rudeness and arrogance but I know plenty of people that would be rude and arrogant with any title you gave them!

[grego]

I'm in limbo. I sometimes make money off it, sometimes don't. Oh well, I always act professionally/responsibly. And that in the end, that's all that matters.

[Mike R]

The fine print in contests that exclude professionals state that a pro is someone who earns 51%of their income from photography. Sure wish I did:lol: