I just can't take it anymore [Archive] - Canon Digital Photography Forums

IndyJeff

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:18

weka2000

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:24

Why does this bug you so much?

Carzee

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:26

Sory 'bout that.

You do have a point about pro writing - its a job criteria. Annoys everyone.

liza

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:27

You think you're annoyed? I'm a teacher, and it drives me crazy!!!!

weka2000

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:30

My english is the pits. I cant spell and what the heck is gramma. Im more intrested in what people have to say, rather than if they have it all correct.

cdifoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:32

English isn't the first language of all members here. This is a global forum.

Carzee

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:38

Global forums are like that.
Eg; the UN organisation just about runs on bad smelling.

liza

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:41

It doesn't matter if it's written in English or Swahili. You still need to use appropriate grammar and punctuation when you write.

E-K

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:41

It can be annoying but the poster's location should also be taken into consideration. I doubt my posts would be grammatically sound if trying to post to a non-english forum :)

Publication by a professional is something different and I would agree you need to be fluent in the language the publication is being published in.

[edit] Walk upstairs for a few minutes and 4 posts get in!
e-k

SuzyView

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:41

I type too fast to get it rightt mosst of the timee. The Wahsington Post has a real probelm with it's editors. They don't see typeos hardlee ever.

Greg_C

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:42

Proof read your work carefully so see if you any words out.

Sorry, that's an old favourite of mine. On forum like this our written posts are usually all that everyone see of us. It only makes sense to present yourself as articulate. I agree, some posts you see could almost be mistaken for a SMS that arrives on your phone. It only takes a little more time to type out the complete word and just a little longer to proof read it. As for spelling, Firefox 2 has it built in and it comes with the Google toolbar. I want the spelling checker to find my typing mistakes rather than spelling mistakes. I'm not perfect, far from it, but I'm still actively trying to improve my spelling.

I read a lot, real paper books that is. I've found that this has greatly improved my grammar. Over the last two years I've had to write a lot of official correspondence for my day job. Mostly to do with contractors doing work for my employer. This really forces you to proof everything several times. Are my instruction clear and concise? The last thing I want is a huge bill arriving on my desk based on a poorly worded email I've sent.

superdiver

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 16:56

Do like I do, if you dont like the a certain poster posts skip over thier posts...life is too short to let these litte things bother you...

Oh, and if you find a way to get people to spell correctly and use proper grammer you can move on to an easier task, like solving world "piece" ;)....LOL

cdifoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:06

It doesn't matter if it's written in English or Swahili. You still need to use appropriate grammar and punctuation when you write.

Are you telling me you're fluent in Swahili? :rolleyes:

cdifoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:07

weka2000

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:11

I type too fast to get it rightt mosst of the timee. The Wahsington Post has a real probelm with it's editors. They don't see typeos hardlee ever.

Yep I understood very word and didnt worry about the mistakes.... :lol:

goforphoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:13

Wy fer youns want to pik on us unedumakated peoples fer. weuns justa simpl peoples what don't no nufen.

cdifoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:15

Wy fer youns want to pik on us unedumakated peoples fer. weuns justa simpl peoples what don't no nufen.

I'm not sure what scares me more. The fact that I agree with you, or the fact that I could understand you in the first place.

goforphoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:18

LOL! Have any of you seen the thing where someone writes a sentence and mixes up the letters in each word except the first and last letter and you can read it word for word without thinking about it?

cgratti

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:20

Now if you turned in a photo with a cutline such as:

The Panthers tightend, John Davis (85) makes the catch to score the winning touchdown against the Bears on Friday night giving the Panthers the led at 14-13. It was there first victory of the season after dissappointing beginning to season.

Maybe the Panther did actually TIGHTEN John Davis... He could have been loose, or should I say lose..... LOL

It doesn't bug me, I make errors, and try and correct them, but i'm not an English major. I just completed my Huked on Foniks though.

http://secure.hop.com/index.cfm?AFID=10&redirCampID=27

cdifoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:22

LOL! Have any of you seen the thing where someone writes a sentence and mixes up the letters in each word except the first and last letter and you can read it word for word without thinking about it?

Yeah that's pretty crazy. It's something like only the first and last letter are correct. :)

Jon, The Elder

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 17:59

Well Indy... once again a well intentioned and intelligent thread, got turned in to a foil for not very humorous comments. Keep trying, there are those who do strive to be better, rather than "just good enough is good enough".

I guess the new name of the forum has not penetrated some of the minds represented.

cdifoto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 18:06

superdiver

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 18:06

Seems to me that submiting things with poor spelling and bad grammer would be a self limiting problem...

Just like submiting poor pictures, soon they will stop asking for them and stop accepting them...

strmrdr

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 18:54

its da net, yas expect, what?
ya pays me to, bother I wil, to it be currected.
oderwize ifn yas dont liks it, den don reed it.
:}
i sA in englash bit I! :}

NickSimcheck

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 19:33

Hlleo,

Goforphoto had meientnod a sudty pormefred taht eexpniald taht eevn tohguh a wrod mhigt be ctemepolly slmbearcd, you can sitll raed it so lnog as the frsit and lsat lteter rimaen in pclae. The rsaeon for tihs is taht our biarn deos not raed eevry lteter of ervey wrod, but prscoeess tehm as a wlohe. Petrty iertnnsitg huh? I maen, did you eevr tnhik taht you cluod aaucltly unadsetnrd waht I am wtirnig?

Make your own on this website I found...
http://www.lerfjhax.com/scrambler

You know what else is funny, the owner of the website is also a photographer!

PhotosGuy

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 19:42

I don't mind so much with 80,000 members around the world, a lot of them with English as a 2nd or 3rd language. Those Cockneys that type phonetically though...

IndyJeff

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 19:44

I guess I stirred the puddin' a bit didn't I?

As for taking into consideration this is an international forum, yes I do consider that. If you have ever read one of Primoz's posts you can tell right away that english is not his first language. I get through each and every post of his I read with no problem. His grammar and sometimes spellings are incorrect but, dude tries the best he can. Any spelling errors are uncommon words and for that I allow his limited command of my language.
I think if you asked Primoz he would tell you he and I are friends, I am glad for that too. I really do like him. Sorry to use you as an example Primoz but, I know you try and you do very well, in my opinion. I am just gald we don't have to post in his language LOL.

Now the point of my rant is this, each post on here is a practice for you. Practice in spelling, grammar, sentence structure etc, etc. My grammar is by far less than stellar but, I try to watch and make corrections when I post.
Sometimes I cover an event and will have to write the story to include with the images. I am being paid to do it and the less work for the editor, the better it is for me in the long run. The less work he does, the more story coverage I get to do.
You get used to posting with improper grammar and spelling and it carries over. I actually had a PM once from a guy wanting to know "if I could use extra shoters to cover races". To begin with, I don't hire anyone and I wouldn't hire that guy if I was hiring someone just because of his lack of reading and checking his own "application" no matter how informal it was.

E-K

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 19:48

It doesn't matter if it's written in English or Swahili. You still need to use appropriate grammar and punctuation when you write.

We are talking about public forums in a global environment are we not? Indy had stated,

"What am I talking about? Spelling and left out words in posts."

I don't think you can hold "posts" to the same standards as an article written for the New York Times or any published work. If we did, then I would need my own personal editor ;)

The other problem too is that the human mind, as others have pointed out, is very adept at filling in the blanks. A quick read will catch most errors but if you are like me I'll find things easier if I come back to something after waiting a few hours.

e-k

joegolf68

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 19:53

If you think that is bad, try interviewing people who speak "ghetto." And then complain they didn't get the job. You're right, how we speak and write is an impression that one should make in a positive way, whenever possible. If nothing else, these forms of communication should be driven into the minds of all students if they wish to succeed. It isn't mandatory, but it sure helps. With spell checkers, one should at least try to improve in that area whenever possible. I think those who say they don't care, take me the way I am, are just kidding themselves and are too lazy, or something, to do better.

verty

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 19:57

bwhahahahaha
this post in funny!

E-K

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 19:58

I would guess those word scrambling studies were based on native speakers. I can read a bit of French but I would be hard pressed to make sense of a scrambled French paragraph.

e-k

PhotosGuy

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 20:26

If you think that is bad, try interviewing people who speak "ghetto."And then complain they didn't get the job. ... I think those who say they don't care, take me the way I am, are just kidding themselves and are too lazy, or something, to do better. Not speaking my language, not wearing my 'uniform' & not a member of my tribe! Lot'sa luck.

Croasdail

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 20:53

Thank heavens Ansel Adams wasn't around to try to be part of this forum... because his spelling was horrible. In fact, he never finnished a formal education because of it. Thank god no one hired him because he was so illiterate. If you can't spell, how the heck are you supposed to know your way aroud a camera.

For me, this forum is just for fun, and I squeze it into my day between my day job and my night job of working for two universities... one of which is a top ten school. Good thing they can look over my spelling errors and give a poor illiterate like me a chance to click some images for them.

So please, if my spelling is so bad that it distracts from my photos, please do skip my post. I really am not interested in an English forum. I am interested in telling stories with images, not the queens english... if I were, I would be a writer, not a photographer. I can speak 4 languages and spell poorly in all of them. And yet, I am able to earn a living... some how. Go figure.

Indy, normally I like your post, but really, this is quit short sighted. If you are going to miss some great photographic talent (and I am not including myself in that group) because they write faster then they type, or they were raised in different circumstances then you, or they grew up outside the country, or had a learning dissability growing up... your going to miss out on a lot of really cool people.

If perfect spelling is to be a requirement for this forum.... that's cool by me. I will just adjust my participation accordingly.

ssim

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 21:09

I think that the times that we live in are so much different from when Ansel Adams was in his prime. There was a time when a higher education was not necessary to get a job. By higher education I mean even finishing high school.

I see allot of diverging opinions here and most have good points. Let's take a look at the context of where the post was put and why, at least my interpretation of it.

This forum, The Business of Photography, is supposed to be one of the serious forums on POTN. It is about helping those that have serious questions about the industry.

I always take into account that this is a international forum. After I start to read a thread and there is numerous errors in it, I always look at the avatar area to see if they have put where they are from. Even if they are from the US, Canada, the UK or any other predominantly English language country does not mean that their mother tongue will be English.

I have seen some recent posts from people that wanted to start in business and their grammar, composition and spelling were horrid. The ones that I am referring to were from the US. Even if their mother tongue is not English, they are trying to enter into business in a business environment that conducts itself in predominantly English. I can only imagine what a lender would think if they were presented with a business plan that looked like this.

I certainly think that we can cut some slack here but there are those that obviously (my opinion) have not put the effort into word smithing their post so that it is understandable and clear. I would think that everyone has access to a spell checker of some sort. That is not going to resolve the issue of grammar totally, nor the composition but it is a start.

Again this is only my opinion but given the higher level of supposed seriousness of this forum that the posters would go to a greater effort to make it readable and concise.

IndyJeff

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 21:32

ssim you hinted at what I am trying to get across here, being to lazy in a post to even proofread it would lead me to think a poster has low standards. When I post anything, it represents me to the world and I want to make a good immpression. If a poster has no concern about how he/she is perceived by readers then so be it.

I have seen misspelled words on websites promoting a business. Now do you think this gives me confidence in that business? Hell no, and if they would only have proofread before they published that site I might have been more inclined to do business with them. Instead I might go to a competitor just because of the first impression factor.

A couple of years ago I updated my member page at SS. Loaded the images, which took forever and sure enough I had a two errors in spelling on the captions. I re-did the whole thing again inorder to correct those errors before someone else saw it, hopefully.

For me, I do take this seriously, thats not to say I don't have sense of humor and may post a funny line here and there.

Oh well, some get it, some don't.

Have a nice dey :)

Pinto

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 21:38

I have seen some recent posts from people that wanted to start in business and their grammar, composition and spelling were horrid... I can only imagine what a lender would think if they were presented with a business plan that looked like this.

I certainly think that we can cut some slack here but there are those that obviously (my opinion) have not put the effort into word smithing their post so that it is understandable and clear. I would think that everyone has access to a spell checker of some sort.
I see allot of diverging opinions....

While I agree with your point, I think you need to look in your own back yard before you are too critical.

ssim

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 22:50

While I agree with your point, I think you need to look in your own back yard before you are too critical.

I will take credit for that. Funny thing is that when I spelled it the other way my spell checker returned the spelling that I put in. If you were looking for a way to try and prove me wrong I guess you were technically successful. The word in question can not be misconstrued in any fashion by the population at large. Bad on me I guess.

If I went through your posts would I find any errors, intentional or otherwise?

Croasdail

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 22:59

ssim you hinted at what I am trying to get across here, being to lazy in a post to even proofread it would lead me to think a poster has low standards. When I post anything, it represents me to the world and I want to make a good immpression. If a poster has no concern about how he/she is perceived by readers then so be it....

Err...ummm... Indy, did you proof read this post? It seems we all don't proof as well as we should.

Really Indy though, I really don't find any corollary between spelling and artistic compitency. My mechanic is Italien, and hammers english, but not the tuning on my car. My yard guy in from south of the border, but I would trust him implicitly. The guy who does my trim and painting work on my house is from the states, but can't read. But his work is truely masterful. English skills had absolutely nothing to do with my decision to hire any of these people. On the other hand, my admin is fantastic with knowing just how to articulate the point exactly as appropriate. I absolutely hired her based on her english skills. But with photography, I just don't get the corollary. I have also found that spelling has nothing to do with work ethic nor standards neither. But that's just my opinion.

If I went through your posts would I find any errors, intentional or otherwise?

In my case - absolutely. That is my whole point. I wasn't aware POTN was about perfectionism. Or accusing others of being lazy, or ignorant. It is about photography... and that's about it.
Cheers.

Don R Almond

21st of November 2006 (Tue), 23:39

I'm a child, But I want to learn

Carzee

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 00:12

Hi Don and welcome to POTN. Hang on for the ride and you'll enjoy this place a lot.
Enjoy.

th3r0m

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 00:54

(1)Really Indy though, I really don't find any corollary between spelling and artistic compitency. My mechanic is Italien, and hammers english, but not the tuning on my car. My yard guy in from south of the border, but I would trust him implicitly. The guy who does my trim and painting work on my house is from the states, but can't read. But his work is truely masterful. English skills had absolutely nothing to do with my decision to hire any of these people. On the other hand, my admin is fantastic with knowing just how to articulate the point exactly as appropriate. I absolutely hired her based on her english skills. But with photography, I just don't get the corollary. I have also found that spelling has nothing to do with work ethic nor standards neither. But that's just my opinion.

(2) In my case - absolutely. That is my whole point. I wasn't aware POTN was about perfectionism. Or accusing others of being lazy, or ignorant. It is about photography... and that's about it.
Cheers.

1) You are correct, there is little or no correlation between competency and spelling/grammar, however, if you intend to operate a business where you primarily communicate/advertise through the written word, having correct spelling and grammar are important. Since most of the examples that you used to illustrate your point rely more on spoken word for communication purposes, spelling and grammar would not be nearly as important. However, if your mechanic's business was named Mikes Aotu, you might be a little leary of having your car/truck/van/automobile worked on there.
2) Of course POTN is about perfection, or rather the means by which one can achieve perfection in a photograph. Since we would point out the things in a photograph that make the message of the photo unclear, why should we not seek to help correct the errors that make the message contained in a post unclear?

I agree with IndyJeff and ssim, the grammar and spelling found in many posts are for the most part not great. While you can cite all kinds of excuses for this, the fact that remains is that we use written word to communicate on this forum. One or two mispelled words or grammar issues are not a big deal, however when it reaches the point where what the poster is trying to say cannot be ascertained from what he/she has written, we have a problem. Personally, the bane of my existence in regards to written language is and probably will always be my lack of correct comma usage and you can tar and feather me over it, but odds are that the message/point of my post is understandable....well, at least readable.

Claire

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 03:01

English is not my first language, and even when writing and/or speaking Swedish I am sure I don't get it correct all the time. Depending on who I speak with I do tend to change the way I speak. We definitely give a certain impression from the way we dress, speak and keep ourselves. It's an overall impression and it only takes one second to make a judgement about someone. That assumption and judgement may very well be wrong, but it still doesn't take away the fact that appearance is of importance when meeting new people.

I think that online many don't think about how they come across. Not equally much anyway compared to when meeting face to face. To us a forum like POTN is - a forum. It's not a board meeting, not a job interview, not even meeting the store assistant. It's a place where you think "it's a bit like home, you go in, hang off your coat and sit down with a beer".

I can't say I've noticed that many horrible posts here on the forums. I've seen spelling and grammatical errors from both native and non-native English speakers. Fine. I might notice them, but unless the WHOLE post is littered with errors which make the post incomprehensible, or just awfully annoying to read, I let it be.

If you are intending to get into business though, then you better make sure spelling and grammar is correct. If you're crap at it yourself, practise by reading, writing and have someone else proof it for you. If you intend to post here about starting a business, then perhaps you may have to think of your spelling as this is the business section of the forum, and perhaps people in this section do expect a bit more professionalism in posts and answers. Appearances might matter more in this section

As for the rest of the forum, heck, unless you actually do write as if you're sending an SMS, then I can oversee errors.

P.S. I type fast. During this post I think I spellt things wrong about 10 times due to my speed. I didn't even reflect on it, I just automatically registered the errors and fixed them. I might still have some, but oh well.

cdifoto

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 03:21

It's a place where you think "it's a bit like home, you go in, hang off your coat and sit down with a beer".

That's how I do it. Either coffee or beer. :)

I might still have some, but oh well.

You do. ;) :p

Claire

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 03:27

You do. ;) :p

Yeah, I just saw that. Fixed one grammar thing and two spelling errors. :P

EOSAddict

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 03:44

Firstly, chillout. Whilst this particular forum may be 'serious', it's not like jobs are on the line here

For me, this forum is just for fun, and I squeze it into my day between my day job and my night job of working for two universities... one of which is a top ten school. Good thing they can look over my spelling errors and give a poor illiterate like me a chance to click some images for them.

So please, if my spelling is so bad that it distracts from my photos, please do skip my post. I really am not interested in an English forum. I am interested in telling stories with images, not the queens english... if I were, I would be a writer, not a photographer. I can speak 4 languages and spell poorly in all of them. And yet, I am able to earn a living... some how. Go figure.

Indy, normally I like your post, but really, this is quit short sighted. If you are going to miss some great photographic talent (and I am not including myself in that group) because they write faster then they type, or they were raised in different circumstances then you, or they grew up outside the country, or had a learning dissability growing up... your going to miss out on a lot of really cool people.

Can't agree more.

Depending on who I speak with I do tend to change the way I speak. We definitely give a certain impression from the way we dress, speak and keep ourselves. It's an overall impression and it only takes one second to make a judgement about someone. That assumption and judgement may very well be wrong, but it still doesn't take away the fact that appearance is of importance when meeting new people.

Same applies to writing. When I post to POTN I am in my own time, relaxing. Of course my concentration is less than it is when working. Do I make spellling errors and typos, hell yes! Do I care, not really. My job relies on my ability to write correctly, I have two degrees. Do I need to justify myself here or am I just enjoying the community.

To us a forum like POTN is - a forum. It's not a board meeting, not a job interview, not even meeting the store assistant. It's a place where you think "it's a bit like home, you go in, hang off your coat and sit down with a beer".

Absolutely

P.S. I type fast. During this post I think I spellt things wrong about 10 times due to my speed. I didn't even reflect on it, I just automatically registered the errors and fixed them. I might still have some, but oh well.

Don't get carried away Claire ;)

By the way where is CDS when you nead him? ;)

Echo63

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 05:51

My english is the pits. I cant spell and what the heck is gramma. Im more intrested in what people have to say, rather than if they have it all correct.

i believe its one of your parent's mother, often called nanna, grandma, grandmother, or simply gramma

just joking, i try to type posts that make sense and are correctly spelled, this doesnt always happen but if i do see it i will correct it.
i understand that most of the members of this forum are in countrys othe than myself and use different languages or spelling (color vs colour, mum vs mom) and even use different words for the same thing (flashlight vs torch, mall vs shops)
i try to understand what other people say on here and try to make my posts as easy to read as possible but i do occasionally misspell words ore even have sentences that dont make sense (alcohol is normally involved) and i apologise for it and i thank the people who write nice easy to read posts

PIXI_666

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 07:00

if i am typing on a FORUM....i dont care about my spelling or typos...seriously lol its the one time i really cant be bothered proofing.....so i think maybe we should stop being so darn picky!!! lol seriousley....OOPS i mean seriously...

tlc

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 07:02

tlc

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 07:04

oh and i just checked out some of the OP's posts and almost all of them incorrectly punctuated!!!!

and yes i know what i am talking about. i proof people's work for a living. :p

Jon, The Elder

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 07:59

The originators and owner(s) of this site are based in a country where the native language is not English. Yet they have decided to conduct the forum in this language.

The English language is taught as a 'second language' in most developed nations and many developing countries as well. Some classes are compulsory in early grade schools.

The English language is recognized as the common denominator in much of the business, science,engineering, and legal communities throughout the planet.

Had this OP decided to put this thread in another forum (general chat for instance) it would have probably disintegrated sooner than it has here.

Yes, there will always be errors through typing too fast in order to not lose the train of thought, and just common transposing of keys. That is to be expected and accommodated as normal in situations like chat rooms and forums. Indeed, many OP's will freely admit and ask for indulgence regarding their limited command of the language. I always admire those that have the courage to at least try.

Researching past posts of the OP in this instance and deriding him for mistakes is cheap.

I totally agree, in principle, with the OP's original complaint. Joke if you will, but he has a valid point. He, as many of us, is a professional and makes a solid attempt at keeping his standards on that level.

Pardon my grammar and spelling.

IndyJeff

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 08:37

croasdil believe it or not I did correct that. I hit preview post, looked at it and found that word and changed it then hit submit. I know now that I should have hit preview again and then hit submit. However, I will let that spelling error stand for it is a prime example of what I am talking about here.

Oh and all the personal attacks on me are fine. My grammar isn't 100% correct but, I try. I proofread and correct spelling errors when I can find them. I am really not that anal retentive, just wanted to maybe have people take a look at what they post and correct some minor mistakes. Those little errors will become habit and wil carry over to other areas where you may need to rely on grammar and spelling.

Carry on gentlemen, and ladies of course.......

Woolburr

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:07

I think the part that most people here are seeming to overlook is the context. There are countless posts on this forum by people proclaiming "I have a major shute comin up for with Natinal Geographac magerzine". How shood I bill then for my pitchers?

If you are looking to be treated as a professional, respected as a professional and taken seriously as a professional....then take the time to proofread your posts. If you are slovenly in your technical questions here, odds are good that same behavior carries over to the rest of your work.

Someone brought up the point of the problem being people where English or American isn't their first language. That really isn't the case...if you look...most of the poor grammar and spelling are contributed by folks right here in the good old US of A.

tlc

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:09

Researching past posts of the OP in this instance and deriding him for mistakes is cheap.
.

why? isnt that what the OP did in the first place - bitch about previous posts of everyone else? :evil:

Jon, The Elder

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:17

Right on WOOLBURR.

Simon Harrison

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:18

Proof reading your own work is very, very difficult and ideally (although not always practical), you should have someone else do it for you. The following is an example of why. It probably only works for those who’s native tongue is English, or how are fluent in English, but would translate into other languages. Don’t think too much about it, just read it!

Daer fierdns,

Aocdrnicg to a rsecareh at Cmbagrdie Uinervtisy, it denos’t matter, what oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the first and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig, huh?

Sometimes you will 'see' the correct spelling if if there is an error simply because of the way the human mind / brain works - you know what you meant to write / type, so that's what you're brain lets you see. The delights of neural linguistic programming!

Cheers,

Simon.

Woolburr

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:20

why? isnt that what the OP did in the first place - bitch about previous posts of everyone else? :evil:

No...that isn't at all what he was doing...he was trying to make a point...

IndyJeff

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:26

If you are looking to be treated as a professional, respected as a professional and taken seriously as a professional....then take the time to proofread your posts. If you are slovenly in your technical questions here, odds are good that same behavior carries over to the rest of your work.

Bingo

That is why I would never recommend someone who is too lazy to do something so simple as to proofread to correct spelling or use a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence.

IndyJeff

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:31

No...that isn't at all what he was doing...he was trying to make a point...

Exactly. I never pointed a finger at anyone. Although I did mention Primoz because of his attempts to converse in english, I did point out that he does a pretty good job of it. It seems as if tlc wants to attack me personally because he feels it must be directed at him. Fine, he doesn't bother me at all.

Thanks for all the supportive PM's. It is appreciated but that personal attack carries no merit with me.

philbyuk

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 09:51

And what about the words that are spelled differently in two different countries?..Is it colour or color??????

cdifoto

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 10:30

Someone brought up the point of the problem being people where English or American isn't their first language. That really isn't the case...if you look...most of the poor grammar and spelling are contributed by folks right here in the good old US of A.

Being in the USA doesn't automatically mean your native language is English.

Instead of passing judgement on forum posts, I think we should look at websites. Actually no. Let's just not pass judgement. Period. It happens enough in the "real world."

Pinto

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 10:38

I will take credit for that. Funny thing is that when I spelled it the other way my spell checker returned the spelling that I put in. If you were looking for a way to try and prove me wrong I guess you were technically successful. The word in question can not be misconstrued in any fashion by the population at large. Bad on me I guess.

If I went through your posts would I find any errors, intentional or otherwise?

I wasn't trying to prove ssim wrong about anything. I just think that we are sometimes too quick to criticize weaknesses in others and overlook that same weakness in ourselves. ssm's response to my post is an example. He goes all the way from strongly criticizing people for not wordsmithing their writing, to defending his own misspelling, even to the point of questioning any errors in my past posts.

Here's an even better example.
There was a recent thread discussing image theft and copyright violation. Several of the posters used very strong words condemning any unauthorized use of an image. And guess whose avatars looked to be blatant copyright violations?

I do not have a problem with minor misspellings or typos. We've all do it. You can probably find something in this post. But if English isn't your second language, and your writing is riddled with errors, that is another matter. It simply shows a lack of respect for the reader.

tofuboy

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 10:58

This section of the forum being more on the business end of photography, one would expect those engaging in conversation here would be interested in presenting themselves as best they can. In type, that means using proper composition, grammar, and spelling.

A few spelling and grammar errors here and there aren't a big deal. I don't think the OP or others agreeing with him are suggesting we tar and feather people who accidentally misspell a few words, or misplace some punctuation.

It's usually pretty easy to tell when someone puts some thought into a post and when they're just writing haphazardly; even if English is their second or third language. I don't know about the rest of you, but I take someone more seriously when they're presenting their opinions or ideas in a well written post.

Claire

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 11:08

I don't know about the rest of you, but I take someone more seriously when they're presenting their opinions or ideas in a well written post.

Damn, that leaves me out then. :lol:

cdifoto

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 11:10

Damn, that leaves me out then. :lol:

Well we never understand you anyway. We just smile and nod so you don't feel lonely. :lol: :p

Claire

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 11:12

Well we never understand you anyway. We just smile and nod so you don't feel lonely. :lol: :p

Ah, that explains why people keep giving me smiley icon in their posts!

cdifoto

22nd of November 2006 (Wed), 11:15

Ah, that explains why people keep giving me smiley icon in their posts!

:) :D :lol: ;) :cool:

NickSimcheck

23rd of November 2006 (Thu), 09:35

People who use English as a second language usually post a sentence that goes like this:

Wondering I was, the 580EX can master a slave of 430EX yes?

That doesn't bother me, I hate slang from people in the US that speak 'engrish' as their native language. Their post go something like this:

whts a whitebalance card and, how do i useit?

Or another good one is:

HEY, I WAS WANTING TO KNOE IF U GOT THAT NU LENZ.

Oh how it drives me insane.

cdifoto

23rd of November 2006 (Thu), 09:48

I hav a nu lenz 4 u 2 c.

It's the cell phone text messaging language that's found its way to forums. THAT kind of stuff annoys me too. It's one thing if they're actually texting since those phones are a pain in the butt to type on, but if you're sitting at a full fledged keyboard, type accordingly.

Tandem

23rd of November 2006 (Thu), 10:27

I suffer from small vessel ischemic disease which limits my brain function. I find it difficult at times to communicate effectively but fortunately it doesn't appear to have affected my creativity. Do you think I could have a little handicapped tag to hang from my posts so that folks would know to be a bit more accommodating?

I wonder what the ADA would think of this thread. ;)

My spell checker found five errors in my post. It doesn't help at all with my grammar.

primoz

23rd of November 2006 (Thu), 11:52

When I saw this thread first I was thinking "gee Jeff don't go into that", but the more I was thinking about, the more sure I was, he's actually right. I'm not going to complain about grammar here, because I know I have no idea about English grammar and spelling myself.
But I would like to point to something else. I believe it's really easy for some of you to understand English written in 100 different dialects, but especially since this is international forum, please consider rest of us. Personally I think I understand English pretty good (far from perfect, but at least I never starved, when I was around the world and people didn't speak my language :) ), but there are people who understand even less then me. Not because they would be stupid or something, but few years of English (or anything else) in school, doesn't make you expert, especially if you don't use this regularly later on. So think how can we understand all those dialects, left out words, abbreviations which are perfectly clear to someone who has English as native language, etc.
And as many of you wrote already, you present yourself to world with your writing. You guys don't see me, most of you will never meet me, so this what I write is all what I give to you, to make your opinion about me. And even though I don't know English all that good, I at least try (Firefox 2 and it's spelling check is pretty cool thing too :)).
On international forums, bad spelling and/or grammar doesn't bother me, but it really goes on my nerves on local forums where everyone speak same language, and where everyone should know that language since it's their native language. There I really can't stand sms type of posts (or maybe I'm just getting too old). I understand some people think faster then they write, but that's not excuse. If someone is going to post, please take few seconds of extra time and use "Go advanced" button and check your posting again, before pressing "submit reply". I'm not saying it will solve all problems (at least it doesn't do for me :)), but it might reduce number of posts which are understandable only to few.

IndyJeff

23rd of November 2006 (Thu), 19:29

Make no doubt about it, english is one tough language to understand. Primoz has a good understanding of it and as you can see by his previous post he knows enough to get his point across, clearly.
Now if Primoz is trying to read a post on here and you replace the word then for the word that, it changes the context. I may know what you mean but, Primoz is scratching his head trying to figure out what your saying. Or my alltime favorite, using there when you mean their. Those who are learning the language are learning it from people who are leading them astray.

How about...

I am trying to figure a way to make this shoot quit. Any suggestions? The animals seem to be distracted but the clicks of the shutter.

What the hell am I talking about? I wouldn't know if I read that.

It should have read...
I am trying to figure a way to make this shoot quiet Any suggestions? The animals seem to be distracted by the clicks of the shutter.

Col_M

23rd of November 2006 (Thu), 21:50

I agree with the OP, it doesn't bug me too much if someone with English as a 2nd language makes a few mistakes as long as the effort is there, you can only do your best and learning involves making mistakes sometimes. What does annoy me a little is people who you know have English as a first language but still make the most basic of mistakes through a lack of...well, self pride and effort come to mind. The misuse of their, they're and there particularly bugs me and seems to be the most common among native English speakers.

I think this is just a problem caused by society, education seems to be a softly, gently, PC load of tripe now instead of hammering essential facts and information into student's heads (bloody hell I'm making myself sound old and at 25 i'm really not, christ knows what some of the really old pre GCSE duffers over the age of 30 feel like :lol::lol::p). Text messaging and IM seem to be fuelling the fire, I’ve got the odd text message along the lines of.....alrite m8, u wana go 4 a pint l8r aftr wrk? txt bk :lol:

But in the grand scheme of things I’m not going to lose sleep over how others want to spell :) Many people (myself included) treat this forum as an informal meeting place to discuss photography with like minded people and so spelling and grammar isn't the top concern, however if I'm doing something in a formal capacity you can bet your ass I'll be proof reading it :)

Croasdail

24th of November 2006 (Fri), 10:49

Hey Jeff, I just wanted to thank you for this post.... it has totally ruined my day. ;) Not because I can't proof my own stuff, I've known that for a long time. But now that you have mentioned these errors, I am seeing them everywhere. Argh! :rolleyes: Grammer, Spelling, poor thought construction... SMSease... holly cow, it is everywhere. These problems really don't bother me, but dang, I now notice them where I didn't before. Thanks alot! :lol: :p Hey, but at least I know I am not alone in this....

Claire

24th of November 2006 (Fri), 10:56

Grammer, Spelling, poor thought construction... SMSease...

Wait, we have to THINK before posting?! :eek:

rhys

24th of November 2006 (Fri), 10:59

You think you're annoyed? I'm a teacher, and it drives me crazy!!!!

I used to teach English in the former USSR and I must say that although the students there had many problems - particularly with articles - their spelling was generally very good indeed.

This reminds me of the book: "eats shoots and leaves".

IndyJeff

24th of November 2006 (Fri), 23:55

DocFrankenstein

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 12:43

Just ignore those posters.

I can't stand when "professional" photographers mention stuff like "my photo's are good"

I'd fire you the instant I saw spelling like that. It means the last time you tried to read something out of a book was highschool.

GSH

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 13:22

oh and i just checked out some of the OP's posts and almost all of them incorrectly punctuated!!!!

and yes i know what i am talking about. i proof people's work for a living. :p

In that case i assume you'd correct such grammatical crimes as not starting a sentence with a capital letter and beginning a sentence with "and" ?

People in glass houses... ;)

As long as posts aren't full of 13 year-old's text message babble i really don't care. Try holding a conversation with someone when neither of you share a language. Now that's a challenge :D

Claire

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 14:03

Wot, U think it's 2 hard 2 read wot a 13 y/o is txting?

steved110

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 14:52

I have to admit, I find text-speak difficult to read, and on this forum there is little need for it - just sheer laziness.

I don't mind informal grammar and spelling mistakes, and I quite like ommitted capital letters too- nice and friendly!
A few abbreviations are OK, IMO

People who misuse apostrophes should be sent back to grade school....:evil:

Claire

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 15:03

People who misuse apostrophes should be sent back to grade school....:evil:

My excuse is that English is my 2nd language... :P

tlc

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 15:32

In that case i assume you'd correct such grammatical crimes as not starting a sentence with a capital letter and beginning a sentence with "and" ?

People in glass houses... ;)

As long as posts aren't full of 13 year-old's text message babble i really don't care. Try holding a conversation with someone when neither of you share a language. Now that's a challenge :D

i'm not the one complaining about grammar or punctuation, he is. geez at least get the story right! what a nancy boy. of all the things to complain about in this world and you choose grammar, spelling and punctuation? good god, get a grip. take a trip to reality and see that there is so much more in this world that needs attention. put your mind to work and do something positive, rather than just sit around and complain about ridiculous crap.

Croasdail

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 20:19

May I add one observation to the conversation before the mud starts flying again. One of the interesting side effects of all this new technologie is that it has taken what was viewed as a very formal form of communication, writing, and moved it into a whole new realm. Many many years ago, all communication when not face to face was done in writing. It would range from the most formal to the very informal. Then the phone came along resulting in "getting something in writing" was inferred as very serious matter. If you wanted to say howdy, you would just call. It was just a lot less work. With the advent of forums, blogs, IM and SMS, communication via writing has taken a turn back to being accepted or should I say more common for informal communication. For example, if I email my manager, I make sure that the note is very carefully constructed. Conversely, if I IM the same person, it is all lower case, use of sms-ease is accepted, and the occasional misspelling or fractured english over looked. The same applies to those that report to me. Forums rather awkwardly of fall into the middle, to me at least. I completely understant the need to present yourself in the most favorable light, particularly when it is regarding professional matters. Hence why I assume Jeff posted his thread in this forum, rather then just general chatter. But we really are on the bleading edge of some sociatal changes here, and many of the rules are being tweaked and morphed in front of us.

To me, having the chance to communicate informally with photographers from around the world that share my enthusiasm for photography is just plain old awsome. I would never trade that interaction for some implied need for grammatical correctness. Just as I am embarrased that as I travel the world in business meetings, these meetings are held in english for my benifit, I am truely humbled that there are those who willing to put themselves out there in written word even though they are not comfortable with the english language. Kudos to those who do so whether they are native english speakers or not.

DocFrankenstein

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 20:55

May I add one observation to the conversation before the mud starts flying again.

technologie = technology
bleading edge = bleeding
sociatal changes = societal
benifit = benefit

Can you tell me why you'd willingly change from correct spelling to the incorrect one when it's the same letter?

Is that a new "trend" in english language? To misspell everything in informal communication?

I have a feeling it's hard to change to the correct spelling if you misspell everything informally.

Croasdail

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 21:46

Because I don't need to prove myself to anyone, and I simply really don't care. How in the world could you have missed the intent of that post. I have way more important things to do with my life them pump myself up by criticizing others. Or perhaps you would like to explian or diagram your third sentence? Is that a new trend in written english where subjects are now optional. Doc, you really don't want to start down that path.

ps... technologie is the French and German spelling. My bad. Sometimes speaking multiple languages messes me up. I thought if anyone, you should have been able to pick that up. The others were just typos. Whoops.

DocFrankenstein

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 22:07

My point is that I'm not buying the whole "english is changing" argument. I used your post to support it. You shouldn't take it personally.

JaertX

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 22:27

oh and i just checked out some of the OP's posts and almost all of them incorrectly punctuated!!!!

and yes i know what i am talking about. i proof people's work for a living. :p

ugh...exactly. Of course, pretty much every time I decide to gripe about someone else, I end up being the thing I hate. I used to make fun of fat people even. :shock:

I wonder what the ADA would think of this thread. ;)

since the ADA is pretty much just a piece of paper ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990 ), I doubt it would think much about it. :rolleyes:

Kevin

25th of November 2006 (Sat), 22:33

Some time back I read through the results of research that was conducted between men and women regarding email correspondence. The research was to determine a correlation in the grammar, spelling and punctuation of email correspondence from men and women and covered a demographic audience. The results were quite interesting and not in favor of us men. It seems that men as a whole never capitalize even the simple letter "I" and punctuation is made up of run-on sentences. It also found that men almost never used spell-checker. While women on the other hand use proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar. I will add that the study was conducted in the USA.

tlc

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 01:54

living and working in london, i come across different dialects, accents, cockney slang, etc on a daily basis. when i first moved here i ventured into a local blockbuster to rent some videos, 3 to be exact. the clerk asked me if i had free rentals and i just looked at her, 'free'? i said? free? these are free? why are these free?

she was saying 3, but it was coming out as 'free'.

i still had to pay for them....:p

and as someone else was just saying, i converse with people who use english as a second language on a daily basis and instead of making them feel stupid for this mispronounciations, or mis-use of a word, i go along with it and have a great conversation with, more than likely, a great person.

i have been on this forum for a short time compared to others. i have responded to PMs and posts regardless of how anything was spelled (or spelt as it is said over here) or punctuated and have really enjoyed helping others and learning from others. i never once had a second thought as to whether i would respond to someone or not because of their spelling and grammar, nor did i have a thought about criticizing them because of it. this is the most thoughtless, stupid, and condescending thread i have ever read. :roll:

steved110

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 04:13

My excuse is that English is my 2nd language... :P

That means you will actually have been taught the language properly, and speak it better than most English/Scots/Welsh/Irish etc...;)

Punctuation is another story - I got a big surprise when I realised that other languages punctuate differently.

And never having been taught grammar as a proper subject has been a huge handicap with my progress in other languages.

Croasdail

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 07:01

My point is that I'm not buying the whole "english is changing" argument. I used your post to support it. You shouldn't take it personally.

You know the funny thing is if you do a google\yahoo search on those words, you will find them misused on the web thousands of times. Not excusing it, but it is amazing some of the places you find these. Bleeding was the most common, with it being misspelled in some very surprising ways. It seems Hi-Tech people are the main source for these documents with the wrong spelling, but there were plenty of medical references as well.

DocFrankenstein

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 10:03

You know the funny thing is if you do a google\yahoo search on those words, you will find them misused on the web thousands of times. Not excusing it, but it is amazing some of the places you find these. Bleeding was the most common, with it being misspelled in some very surprising ways. It seems Hi-Tech people are the main source for these documents with the wrong spelling, but there were plenty of medical references as well.
Your point?

If you search for "photo's" on this forum, you'll find the misused version used more often than the correct one. It just speaks of the general literacy level.

Jon, The Elder

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 10:05

Indeed...the world is going to Hell in a handbasket.

Croasdail

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 11:20

My point...? I am not sure if there is any hope here.

If you search for "photo's" on this forum, you'll find the misused version used more often than the correct one. It just speaks of the general literacy level.

So by making a statement like this, where on the literacy spectrum do you place yourself? And what point does it prove?

Let me try this another way. My point is that less then perfect English is everywhere. Some improper usages are becoming so common that they are becoming acceptable. Particularly as was we interact in a global world, the message is paramount. This forum is full of fractured sentences, lack of capitalization, typos, misspelled words, etc. A quick survey of past post and you can find them in just about everyones post, even those who complain the most about it. And yet, most reasonable people can figure out what the intent of the message is.

What bothers me more is questions like "I have this pile of equipment and I need to shoot a portrait - how should I do it". Key information like setting, location, timing, purpose of the shot, are we looking for soft or dramatic, etc., all missing. In a photo forum, when, where, and why all are needed so the question has context in order to answer how.

But we are going to get all wrapped around the axle about spelling.... go figure.

That is my point.

tlc

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 11:30

in just about everyones post, even those who complain the most about it. And yet, most reasonable people can figure out what the intent of the message is.

OH MY GOD.... you forgot to make 'everyones' possessive.........

you evil wicked demon spawn...........you shall repent your punctuation sin!!!!

Claire

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 14:37

I know German grammar in more detail than Swedish.:rolleyes:

My mother tongue is Swedish, my 2nd language is English, I studied German 8-12th grade & Spanish 11-12th.

It's amazing how much better you get to know another language's grammar & spelling compared to your own language's. I mean, my German teacher FORCED us to learn all the darn rules etc. During Swedish class I would hardly listen as "I speak & write it every day & I do it correctly, why should I listen?"

My dad knows many of the grammatical rules in Swedish, he had to learn them at school & actually did. Mom knows them & is great with reading phonetics.

I think that when learning another language we're forced to actually learn & understand grammar & spelling. When it comes to our own language we don't put down the same effort because "Heck, I speak it every day & I'm good at it."

Also, I believe there's a generation gap, my dad's generation was forced to learn more things in a different way as opposed to my generation. And with all this new technology the generations after me are expressing themselves in a totally new way with MSN, text messages & chats. The language is evolving a lot (which is the way it should be).
At the same time it's important to teach kids how to express themselves in writing & orally, especially writing as I believe this is the main way of communicating in this time & age. Instead of phone we use email & sometimes we tend to forget we're not emailing friends, but actually business associates. The way you write emails will be of great importance.

The other day I saw an email reply from my boss to a business associate in UK. I cringed when reading it, the grammar was all over the place & I don't even want to know what the UK guy thought every time he read my boss' emails... Thank god our Sales Director is British, our CEO speaks fluent English/German & the ppl dealing with our partners are good at English.

GSH

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 15:23

i'm not the one complaining about grammar or punctuation, he is. geez at least get the story right! what a nancy boy. of all the things to complain about in this world and you choose grammar, spelling and punctuation? good god, get a grip. take a trip to reality and see that there is so much more in this world that needs attention. put your mind to work and do something positive, rather than just sit around and complain about ridiculous crap.

:lol:

I'm not the one claiming to be a proof reader, am i ? :rolleyes:

tlc

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 15:41

:lol:

I'm not the one claiming to be a proof reader, am i ? :rolleyes:

yah and so what? your still a nancy boy. where's your blouse?

GSH

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 15:46

yah and so what? your still a nancy boy. where's your blouse?

Probably in the same place as your sense of humour ;)

Moppie

26th of November 2006 (Sun), 19:20

7 pages, and no one has yet pointed out the irony in an American complaining about correct grammer and spelling?

The english language is possibly the most dynamic on the planet, its whole history is a bastardisation of other languages, new words are being added to faster than dictionarys can be printed, and meanings change faster than anyone but a 10 year old boy can keep up with.
Complaining about it shows only a resistance to change, a factor that can be both good and bad for any business.

That said, it appears the core message from Indyjeff was a concern about the ablity of some people to get thier message across, especialy in a proffesional environment.
Bad spelling and grammer will make it much harder, and in some instances may even knock you back.
But just because someone is in a position of power, i.e your boss, or prospective employer, it dosn't imply thier spelling or grammer is any better than yours.
While a magazine/news paper editor might be turned off because of bad grammer attached to a photo, he would be a bad editor if he let it stop him from choosing the best photograph from the best photographer.

IndyJeff

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 00:00

this is the most thoughtless, stupid, and condescending thread i have ever read.

You know tlc, I have actually had a good time with this thread. It has been interesting to see the different points of view on the formalities of posting. So far the only post, or poster, I have found to be condescending is you.

Based upon the PMs I have received I think most people got my point of this whole thread. It wasn't to poke fun or criticize anyone at all but, to make people more aware of the content of their posts. It seems that most got the point, except you.

WxGuesser

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 00:05

What am I talking about? Spelling and left out words in posts. Guys and gals, if you ever want to do anything in the media you have to learn to proof read your words.

Am I being picky? Yeah probably but, I see some posts on this board and sometimes there are such horrible spelling and left out words I just can't help but think about the cutlines that person might write.

Now if you turned in a photo with a cutline such as:

The Panthers tightend, John Davis (85) makes the catch to score the winning touchdown against the Bears on Friday night giving the Panthers the led at 14-13. It was there first victory of the season after dissappointing beginning to season.

Now do you think the editor is going to read it and wonder what kind of a dope he has hired? A first time might get a laugh out of him, second time may be a word or two about proofing your cutlines. If it happens enough don't count on working for this guy very long.

dosen't the and make spelling singular???

I see some posts on this board and sometimes there are such horrible spelling and left out words I just can't help but think about the cutlines that person might write.

Shouldn't it be .... I see some posts on this board and sometimes there is such horrible spelling and left out words ( I would have said.... and words left out..) I just can't help but think about the cutlines that person must write...

IndyJeff

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 00:10

LOL WX I wondered when someone would point that out. I guess if I was giving away a prize you would be the one getting it but, I am not, so all you get is a hardy handshake. :)

WxGuesser

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 00:19

Thanks... i was surprised that nobody else noticed it....

were you just waiting and waiting til someone said that? i'm sure that making a post like this and then doing that.. it must have been eating at you.... i bet you could have snuck in an edit and nobody would have noticed... :D

tlc

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 01:00

You know tlc, I have actually had a good time with this thread. It has been interesting to see the different points of view on the formalities of posting. So far the only post, or poster, I have found to be condescending is you.

Based upon the PMs I have received I think most people got my point of this whole thread. It wasn't to poke fun or criticize anyone at all but, to make people more aware of the content of their posts. It seems that most got the point, except you.

you are sooooo not worth it.

IndyJeff

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 08:39

Wx actually I caught it after I submitted the post. I changed the course of the sentence in midstream, hence the error. I started to change it but, thought it better to leave it just to see how long before someone caught it.
Oh I make mistakes as much as anyone else. I just try to fix mine when I catch them. LOL "Have" is my most often corrected mistake, for some reason it types most of the time as ahve. I think it is a computer error though. :)

Oh and tlc, go away will ya? You tool.

tlc

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 09:19

primoz

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 12:02

Moppie I agree with your, but you have to consider one thing... usually photographers (at least when it comes to business) are somewhere close to each other. Usually there's not many who would be far above average (average between pro photographers, not average of all photographers ;)). So then you have two about same quality photos, one with understandable captions, and one with something not even 10 years old kid, who spends 90% of his time on irc (or whatever todays version of irc is), would understand. And I guess it's not rocket science to find out which one will he choose. :)
If you have some way above average photographer, then I agree with you completely.

Croasdail

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 12:18

Thing is Primoz, for me and my submissions, my captioning is very simple. Event - Location - Period if applicable - player name or names and number(s). No expounding on it at all. That's it. I am not a writer, don't hope to be, and I leave the writing up those that are paid to do so. Perhaps I would get more images used if I did, but so far I haven't had any feedback to that point. Now spelling of the subjects name is critical though... no exceptions there.

primoz

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 12:33

Mark I don't write long stories in caption field either. And luckily most of agencies I work with, are not English speaking either, so we share bad (some better others worse) English knowledge :) But just as you said, I leave writing to people who are paid for it, and who know how to write.
But think different. If you have two same photos, one with nicely written caption, and other with missing caption, or caption where you can't understand anything, which one you would choose?

IndyJeff

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 12:57

Primoz once I had an email from a state wrestling magazine asking for a shot of a certain wrestler they were doing a story on. I sent in the shot with an AP caption, who, what, when, why and where. When I was contacted to let me know they used it, the editor said the caption was great. In fact of the 4 photos they had submitted mine was the only one who told who the kid was, who he was wrestling and at what meet. The other one that had a caption just had his name. They chose mine because of the complete caption. Score one for me and the extra 3 minutes I took to attach the caption in the file info section.

CyberDyneSystems

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 14:03

I want to keep my mouth shut for obvious reasons...... :rolleyes:

But I can't help but keep noticing Jeff's own recurring spelling errors in this very thread.. :lol:

[ runspellcheckx3beforeposting ]

The point re: maintaining a level of professionalism is well taken though.

It may not surprise anyone here that I came close to running into this sort of issue with my gallery event last Spring. I had everything checked and re-checked before sending things to the printer.. (invitation etc.)
In the end I managed to pull it off with no errors, but since the invitations were created on the same computer I use to type my usual incomprehensible blabber on forums and such, it came naturally, (far too naturally) to be typing too fast and not checking well enough my errors while creating these public documents.

This is certainly part of the danger that we risk, and thus again, point well taken.

cdifoto

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 14:18

I care if I spell everything on my website correctly. I don't care if I spell everything here correctly. OP's initial complaint was about spelling and grammar here. Then it evolved into professional arenas and saying it doesn't matter here when he was called out on his own mistakes.

Which is it Jeff? Does it matter here, or does it not?

Permagrin

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 14:23

I want to keep my mouth shut for obvious reasons...... :rolleyes:

But I can't help but keep noticing Jeff's own recurring spelling errors in this very thread.. :lol:

This is certainly part of the danger that we risk, and thus again, point well taken.

I was going to say something as well and mention the grammar, which is often atrocious.

My point? What we personally think is acceptable, isn't always correct.

cosworth

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 14:26

Permagrin

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 14:33

I always maintain it takes the same amount of energy to spell incorrectly as it does to spell correctly. Grammar is a different matter though. I think it takes more synaptic fortitude to badly compose a sentence than to do it according to one's own local rules.

cdi-ink has it right though. We're all chatting 'round the water cooler here. On my website if I find a mistake I freak out. That's if I ever update it.

This forum has (what I've seen) the most correct usage of English I've seen on the net. Bravo to that.

Oh, I completely agree with you. This is just "chatting"...and when I'm chatting, I do not speak as "properly" as when I'm "speaking"....I was just pointing out to the OP that if one is going to be correct, one should indeed "be correct" ;)

(How was that for an uber-usage of quotation marks?):lol:

cdifoto

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 14:55

I wonder if OP has ever been in the break room of a restaurant before. I can certainly tell you that those sweet little waitresses are not such sweet little waitresses when tips aren't at stake.

It's a bit the same here. We let loose here. We don't all speak to our clients with such candor as here, and we don't worry so much about how it all comes out. Sometimes we stumble, sometimes it flows, but we somehow always keep things moving and learn along the way.

The next person you ignore due to poor spelling could be the person that wanted to hire you for the best paying gig you've ever had in your life.

Croasdail

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 15:19

IndyJeff

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 18:32

I am not perfect, I know and I do make mistakes. I do however make an effort to read before I post. If I see them, I correct them. I am sure if you went through each and every post I have ever done on here I have had stuff that slipped by.
Pile on me all you want, it doesn't bother me one bit.

As far as I am concerned, this thread is dead. It has lost all meaning and now is just a pile on.

Pinto

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 19:18

Jeff, I think you should be congratulated for bringing this subject up for such a lively discussion. Even if many of the naysayers won't admit it, I would guess that they may take a little more care in their posting after seeing this thread.

IndyJeff

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 19:23

Woolburr

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 20:03

that wot come go makes no many sense at times to any, but hard think is good time for fun. How many shud I charge for 8x10 reprints of duplicats?

Moppie

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 20:10

that wot come go makes no many sense at times to any, but hard think is good time for fun. How many shud I charge for 8x10 reprints of duplicats?

Shoot in M, and use Cfn 4-1. It will solve all your problems.
As for what flash to use? Well you always need the best, so get a 300D.

:p

Croasdail

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 20:10

I doubt it, their won't be then much change no matter what u point out.

That's where you are wrong amigo.... I just downloaded the latest version of Firefox so I have the one with spell checker on it, on my home machine that is. A good lively discussion is never a waste. Only the most closed minds can't learn something. Everyone else learns if not accidently.

Cheers dude.... don't pay any attention to the silly people.

cdifoto

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 20:14

Cheers dude.... don't pay any attention to the silly people.

Hey now. Don't be offending the silly people. The politically correct term is "normalcy impaired"

Permagrin

27th of November 2006 (Mon), 20:15

I doubt it, their won't be then much change no matter what u point out.

that wot come go makes no many sense at times to any, but hard think is good time for fun. How many shud I charge for 8x10 reprints of duplicats?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Belmondo

28th of November 2006 (Tue), 18:14

Generally speaking, if my post is going to be longer that 2 sentences, I'll run it through Word for spelling, syntax, and grammar. I am not particularly articulate, but with Bill Gates' help, I get by.

Croasdail

28th of November 2006 (Tue), 21:06

It is too bad you can't have word be your default editor for stuff like this. I know it is possible, just the plumbing hasn't been built yet.

NickSimcheck

28th of November 2006 (Tue), 22:46

I gotta admit... I almost never read my post before hitting reply. *GASP*

What's even worse is I know my spelling is off more often then not, but I still don't care.

Pinto

29th of November 2006 (Wed), 13:51

I gotta admit... I almost never read my post before hitting reply. What's even worse is I know my spelling is off more often then not, but I still don't care.

Nicely put. I think that pretty much sums up the attitude of everyone with your point of view.

nohnst

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 08:41

I gotta admit... I almost never read my post before hitting reply. *GASP*

What's even worse is I know my spelling is off more often then not, but I still don't care.

Same here. I find it just as annoying when people are anal about proper spelling and grammar, especially in a place and time where it is least expected and needed. I'm here for good information on photography, not for a book writing contest, or a written business proposal to a group of investors. There is always someone else who is more proficient in the language to assist me on that when needed. It's hard enough to figure out the proper lighting of a studio and there's always someone, somewhere, who would tap you on the shoulder just to remind you the difference between "their" or "there". Give me a break. Let's not be so judgemental on a person's character and abilities because of their incorrect usage of grammar. Do I have to spel everything correctly so that it would be easier for u to understand this post?

Please let people decide on how to speak their language. Success come in many different ways for everyone and it does not always boil down to proper grammar usage. I live in a multicultural city where successful business owners walk past me everyday who can barely speak or write proper english. If you find it troubling to "understand" a post, then skip it. If you can "understand" the message, but is bothered with the incorrect grammar, then that's your problem. Let's try to remember that not everyone on this board a grammar guru, and they have much better things to worry about than a mispelling in a sentence.

Jon, The Elder

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 09:11

It comes down to the personal pride in my approach to life. If I do something, especially open to the public, then I do my best. There is a old adage that says to the effect "If it is worth doing, then do it well". I'm pretty sure it was Ben Franklin, he was an old guy too.

cowpix

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 10:24

Same here. I find it just as annoying when people are anal about proper spelling and grammar, especially in a place and time where it is least expected and needed. I'm here for good information on photography, not for a book writing contest, or a written business proposal to a group of investors. There is always someone else who is more proficient in the language to assist me on that when needed. It's hard enough to figure out the proper lighting of a studio and there's always someone, somewhere, who would tap you on the shoulder just to remind you the difference between "their" or "there". Give me a break. Let's not be so judgemental on a person's character and abilities because of their incorrect usage of grammar. Do I have to spel everything correctly so that it would be easier for u to understand this post?

Please let people decide on how to speak their language. Success come in many different ways for everyone and it does not always boil down to proper grammar usage. I live in a multicultural city where successful business owners walk past me everyday who can barely speak or write proper english. If you find it troubling to "understand" a post, then skip it. If you can "understand" the message, but is bothered with the incorrect grammar, then that's your problem. Let's try to remember that not everyone on this board a grammar guru, and they have much better things to worry about than a mispelling in a sentence.

"let people decide on how to speak their language"??? :mad: That is just wrong, very wrong.

If you do not use proper grammar and spelling, your odds of success are limited. People are judged by what they say or write. Writing on this forum certainly need not be formal, however correctness should be strived for. ;)

Jon, The Elder

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 13:42

If you do not use proper grammar and spelling, your odds of success are limited. People are judged by what they say or write. Writing on this forum certainly need not be formal, however correctness should be strived for.

Well said

nohnst

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 16:34

"let people decide on how to speak their language"??? :mad: That is just wrong, very wrong.

If you do not use proper grammar and spelling, your odds of success are limited. People are judged by what they say or write. Writing on this forum certainly need not be formal, however correctness should be strived for. ;)

I'm sorry but I believe that good communication, and getting the point across for someone to understand, is among the key to success, not just strictly proper grammar alone. Judging a person's character and abilities on his grammar alone is just linear thinking. What exactly is this judgement placed on him becuase of his inability to speak proper language? That he is undeducated and have very little room for success in life? I can give you plenty of examples of people who are successful who can't even write more than a paragraph of english. They have their reasons, english as a second a language, or their area of expertise does not require the precise use of english. I am asian, and my oldest brother does not even have half of my english vocabulary, but he's doing well enough in life to go in into retirement.

If I were to hire a photographer to shoot my wedding, and in the middle of our conversation, he would interrupt me to correct me on my usage of grammar, I would drop him immediately. I think it's equally rude that people fail to focus on the subject of conversation and start placing judgement on a person of his inability to use proper grammar. Not everyone is a walking spell checker.

karensimmons

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 17:48

I find it just as annoying when people are anal about proper spelling and grammar, especially in a place and time where it is least expected and needed.Least needed? Hardly. The *only* method anyone has of knowing you here is what you write and how you write it. If what you write is consistently and repeatedly sloppy, poorly spelled, and full of errors, then that's the "face" that you're putting to yourself in this forum.

Yes, people make typos and I really don't care about those. It's usually pretty obvious what's a typo and what's not. However, when people consistently make blatant and basic errors (your for you're, for example), it says something about how much they care about how they present themselves to others and how much they respect the people they're trying to communicate with. Then there are some people who care so little that their posts are practically unreadable, between the spelling errors, grammar errors, and just plain limited vocabulary.

I don't think people should have to write formally online - we all use slang and we all use casual speech patterns (a friend of mine refers to it as t-shirt writing vs. tuxedo writing) - but people should at least make some effort to write clearly and correctly so as to be understood.

f I were to hire a photographer to shoot my wedding, and in the middle of our conversation, he would interrupt me to correct me on my usage of grammar, I would drop him immediately.That is totally irrelevant to this thread and a red herring argument. We're not talking about correcting spoken usage during the course of doing one's job. We're talking about a method of communication between peers (or teachers and students in some cases) where the written word is the ONLY form of interaction that we have.

Karen

canonphotog

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 20:07

On the different forums I frequent, I have read on more than one occasion; "pardon my language, my first language is not english". When someone presents themselves in such a manner, I give them a tremendous amount of latitude.

When english is your primary language..., and you cannot be bothered to take the time to represent yourself with appropriate grammar and spelling to the best of your ability; Why would I or anyone else believe that you have a coherent thought in your head, let alone believe that you are out there succeeding in life?

Ken

canonphotog

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 20:09

and if the shoe fits..., Flame away. I'm not through LMAO at the naysayers in this thread.

toddb

16th of December 2006 (Sat), 23:45

I doubt it, their won't be then much change no matter what u point out.

I've been trying to get better at proofing my post. It does make a difference when you accidentally say "no" vs "know" (or leave the "not" part out of the sentence!). I really struggle with spelling...I was almost a 4.0 student except spelling...just do not get it, no matter how many times I try and learn the 400 plus ways to spell the 20 some sounds in the English language.

Some people just have the knack for it and others don't. It is not by any means a gauge of a person's intelligence from the people I've met in life. I didn't take your post as such. I believe you were just pointing out that it's a good thing to try and communicate successfully and I agree with that.

nohnst

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 02:00

nohnst

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 02:08

Least needed? Hardly. The *only* method anyone has of knowing you here is what you write and how you write it. If what you write is consistently and repeatedly sloppy, poorly spelled, and full of errors, then that's the "face" that you're putting to yourself in this forum.

Do you actually think that is necessary for a Mr. Nguyen or a Mr. Quinn who comes here for research and knowledge in photography to use proper english when it is not their primary language? Do you actually think that everyone who was brought up in an english speaking family consistently speaks and write proper english? Bad grammar exist in everyone. Even to the people who insist on correct grammar usage sometimes fail to see their own mistakes. Wether you care or not depends on how important it is to you. Instead of putting emphasis in the exchange of good information in this discussion room, we choose judge people on their grammar.

Yes, people make typos and I really don't care about those. It's usually pretty obvious what's a typo and what's not. However, when people consistently make blatant and basic errors (your for you're, for example), it says something about how much they care about how they present themselves to others and how much they respect the people they're trying to communicate with. Then there are some people who care so little that their posts are practically unreadable, between the spelling errors, grammar errors, and just plain limited vocabulary.

That's a matter of personal preference. Grammar may be of great importance to you but it could be least important to others. Everyone choose to speak and write the way they want at their own comfort because not everyone wakes up in the morning thinking about english 101. Not everyone is proficient with good grammar or even if it's their primary concern at all. I dont even understand the difference between starting a sentence: "Me and my friends", or "My friends and I", nor do I care reading other people's mistake about "you're" and "your", as long as the message is clear and fully understood, then we finally successfully communicated with each other. So would that render me an effortless idiot?

I don't think people should have to write formally online - we all use slang and we all use casual speech patterns (a friend of mine refers to it as t-shirt writing vs. tuxedo writing) - but people should at least make some effort to write clearly and correctly so as to be understood.

There's a big difference between communication and grammatical errors. It doesn't take much effort to decipher a post with poor grammar, but it does take more effort to decipher a post that has fail to address their point so people can understand clearly. People who struggle with grammar can still get their point across when they come here for discussions, and there are people with perfect grammar who at times fail to make any sense.

That is totally irrelevant to this thread and a red herring argument. We're not talking about correcting spoken usage during the course of doing one's job. We're talking about a method of communication between peers (or teachers and students in some cases) where the written word is the ONLY form of interaction that we have.

Karen

Same difference. Most likely, but not always, someone with poor english speaking skills will reflect on his writing skills as well. Look, don't get me wrong. I did not fail to understand the importance of grammar. I do graphic design for a living. I've outputted a ton of promotional company brochures and power point presentations. My focus is on the design aspect and there is a proof reader that steps in to make sure all text content are gramatically correct. Different jobs for different people. Different concerns for different people. I choose not to be nit picky about grammar.

The point I'm trying to make in all this is.. why are we so critical about other people's grammar in a photography discussion board forum? And to go as far as to be judgemental on their abilities to succeed because of poor grammar? Let's be realistic.. is success primarily anchored on grammar alone? I don't think so. Mr. Kim owns a 6 color press printing machine and have over 20 employees in his printing shop. Mr. Patel owns a business that sells hyperbaric oxygen chamber for for sick patients and over a span of 5 years.. his business has brought him to success. Real people that I work with. Real people with poor english and writing skills. I can go on.

tlc

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 02:35

I'm sorry but I believe that good communication, and getting the point across for someone to understand, is among the key to success, not just strictly proper grammar alone. Judging a person's character and abilities on his grammar alone is just linear thinking. What exactly is this judgement placed on him becuase of his inability to speak proper language? That he is undeducated and have very little room for success in life? I can give you plenty of examples of people who are successful who can't even write more than a paragraph of english. They have their reasons, english as a second a language, or their area of expertise does not require the precise use of english. I am asian, and my oldest brother does not even have half of my english vocabulary, but he's doing well enough in life to go in into retirement.

If I were to hire a photographer to shoot my wedding, and in the middle of our conversation, he would interrupt me to correct me on my usage of grammar, I would drop him immediately. I think it's equally rude that people fail to focus on the subject of conversation and start placing judgement on a person of his inability to use proper grammar. Not everyone is a walking spell checker.

where have you been all my life? :p

if grammar and punctuation are so important to this forum, it should be pointed out when they first join up.

i bet if you did some research on some of the most important photographers over the last 50 years, you would find some pretty illiterate people. i am sure there are a few who did not even have a high school education. so by all means, lets ban them from this forum!

canonphotog

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 02:50

Such a demeaning generalization.

Yes, it is a demeaning generalization. It's also a fact of life regarding first impressions. Amazingly enough, with proper grammar and spelling, you were able to pick up on that right away. Why would I care about demeaning generalizations when there is grammar and spelling at stake?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So does that mean successful people with poor grammar skills are non-existent?

No, not at all. I have worked with many successful people that were and still are challenged by grammar and spelling.

They were all quite good at verbal communication by the way, and they also made sure that any written correspondence they produced was chopped for grammar and spelling. They all recognized the value of appropriate written communications.

There have been posts to this thread, mocking or otherwise, that under represent the posters.

Rather a shame isn't it.

Ken

Moppie

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 03:05

From my general experience people who obsess over spelling and grammar, to the point of belittling others, do so because they lack the intelligence or creativity to excel in any other subject.

It always sounds very pathetic, usually coming across like some pathetic attempt to draw the attention away from really a interesting person who just so happens to have spent their time involving themselves in more entertaining, or intellectually stimulating pursuits.

There is no such thing as the "perfect" version of the English language, it is so dynamic it changes faster than anything can be formalised.
We can't even agree on how to use the letter u, who cares about the placement of a simple apostrophe when used in casual and informal dialog.

Anyone who has a problem with it needs to get over themselves and spend more time taking photos, or if finding grammatical errors is what gets you off, then go and read an academic journal. The more heavy and theoretical science or subject the more mistakes and errors you will find to complain about.

canonphotog

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 03:06

What am I talking about? Spelling and left out words in posts. Guys and gals, if you ever want to do anything in the media you have to learn to proof read your words.

Am I being picky? Yeah probably but, I see some posts on this board and sometimes there are such horrible spelling and left out words I just can't help but think about the cutlines that person might write.

IndyJeff has a great point here. I personally believe that many of the negative posts in this thread result from having forgotten that this post is in the business of photography forum and not in the grammar and spelling forum.

In particular, IndyJeff has stated a business reality for a specific part of the photography business.

He's not talking about print shops with editors on staff or hyperbaric oxygen chamber salesman.

He brings up very valid points on properly representing yourself in a facet of the industry where spelling and grammar matter.

If you didn't figure that out from OP...,

Ken

tlc

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 03:10

IndyJeff has a great point here. I personally believe that many of the negative posts in this thread result from having forgotten that this post is in the business of photography forum and not in the grammar and spelling forum.

In particular, IndyJeff has stated a business reality for a specific part of the photography business.

He's not talking about print shops with editors on staff or hyperbaric oxygen chamber salesman.

He brings up very valid points on properly representing yourself in a facet of the industry where spelling and grammar matter.

If you didn't figure that out from OP...,

Ken

i think you are missing the fact he is complaining about posts.

tlc

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 03:11

tofuboy

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 03:17

if grammar and punctuation are so important to this forum, it should be pointed out when they first join up.

Probably because the forum as a whole isn't so anal with putting thought into ones post as this section of the forum is. This section, 'The Business of Photography', is about the professional aspect of photography.

Just as one tries to look their best when they do a formal job interview, one should try to present themselves their best when they are going to professionals with questions. Unfortunately, the format of conversation here is text, that means putting thought into spelling, grammar, and structure.

i bet if you did some research on some of the most important photographers over the last 50 years, you would find some pretty illiterate people. i am sure there are a few who did not even have a high school education. so by all means, lets ban them from this forum!

You may find such people, but there were probably also people behind them handling the details of literacy (and probably making a nice living off the illiterate artist). Who cares if someone is the greatest photographer in the world if they aren't capable of promoting themselves?

The point I'm trying to make in all this is.. why are we so critical about other people's grammar in a photography discussion board forum? And to go as far as to be judgemental on their abilities to succeed because of poor grammar? Let's be realistic.. is success primarily anchored on grammar alone? I don't think so. Mr. Kim owns a 6 color press printing machine and have over 20 employees in his printing shop. Mr. Patel owns a business that sells hyperbaric oxygen chamber for for sick patients and over a span of 5 years.. his business has brought him to success. Real people that I work with. Real people with poor english and writing skills. I can go on.

I don't know Mr. Kim or Mr. Patel, but I'd be willing to bet that when they're promoting their business through text (print ads, web page, online ads, store front, etc) that they would ensure the spelling and grammar are correct.

In my point of view, if a business can't bother to get the details correct in selling their product; how am I to trust that they'll bother to get the details correct in whatever it is they're selling me? Again, that's just my point of view but I'm sure many others share that same point of view.

This is the professional section of the forum, people should be expected to communicate as professionally as they are capable. It's fairly easy to determine when someone puts thought into a post, whether English is their native language or not. The idea of the thread isn't to rain on the parade of people who may speak English as a second language, but to simply ask that people put a little time and thought into their posts. That's not too much to ask considering the scope of this forum... in my opinion anyways.

-Matt (the non-professional)

nohnst

17th of December 2006 (Sun), 03:40

IndyJeff has a great point here. I personally believe that many of the negative posts in this thread result from having forgotten that this post is in the business of photography forum and not in the grammar and spelling forum.

In particular, IndyJeff has stated a business reality for a specific part of the photography business.

He's not talking about print shops with editors on staff or hyperbaric oxygen chamber salesman.

He brings up very valid points on properly representing yourself in a facet of the industry where spelling and grammar matter.

If you didn't figure that out from OP...,

Ken

This forum in general is about the discussion of photography. There is a section in this forum that speaks about the business of photography. You are not my client and I'm not your customer. We we are not conducting a business here. We are here to share knowledge about the "the business aspects of photography". Get it right.